A few things i've learned in researching for a CE game

[glitterboy2098]

recently i've been working on a CE game set in europe. since i am one to add as much verisimilitude as i can to game, that meant researching the kinds of conditions one could expect there. I will probably turn the results into a rifter article, eventually. but in the process i learned a few things that would be of wider importance to all chaos earth games.

the first thing i discovered is that Volcanic eruptions only last a few days usually. even the big ones. i was pretty sure of this already, but it was nice to have confirmation.

the second thing i learned was more of a surprise. that many of the biggest volcano's have "eruption periods" where they erupt multiple times, usually several months apart. these eruption periods can last as long as 2 years for the biggest volcano's.

i also learned a few things about Volcanic Ash.

that during ashfalls even brief exposure to a light ashfall can lead to Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovo​lcanoconiosis, which along with being the english language's longest official word at 45 letters, means a lung condition caused by volcanic ash under 0 microns across. it is simialr to the 'black lung' of coal miners or Asbestos poisioning, where the non-biodegradable particles line the lungs, and the body tries to fight them off with an immune response, resulting in scarring and inflammation of the lungs.

this would definitely be a good reason for gasmasks, filter masks, or even just fabric wrapped around the nose and mouth to become a common Chaos Earth aesthetic.

also, in a longer term problem, is that volcanic eruptions tend to have relatively high levels of Flouride compounds in their ash plumes. in minute amounts Flouride can be beneficial to the body. but in not much larger amounts it can lead to the opposite effect, Flouride toxicity, where the bones of the body grow frail and brittle, while also growing out of control. it can also lead to kidney failure and chronic health issues. given the sheer amount of Volcanic ashfall in north america excess fluoride in the water sources would be a terrible problem for most of the 2nd Dark Age. and certainly would be a problem during the cataclysm itself, when the fluoride compound coated ash mixes with ice and snow and into water reservoirs. without the right form of filtering you would see a lot of people afflicted by it.
it also will be picked up by plants growing in ash-laden soil too, which could cause long term health issues in an area.

While Europe wouldn't have had as much ashfall (really they only have Iceland to produce any north of the med.), probably only a few inches on the mainland.. Iceland's volcano's apparently put out a lot of Fluoride compounds. the 2010 eruption caused a fair amount of problems for livestock eating plants coated with microscopic ash and drinking water that had small amounts of ash fall in it, so when all the Volcano's of iceland go up in the cataclysm, this would have been a big issues in europe as well.

[glitterboy2098]

a few more things of interest

the smallest ash particles can stay airborne at high altitude for weeks at a time. this is partly why you get weather changes, the layer of fine particles effects things like solar radiation and reflection. (the main sources of weather changes are the various vapors released at the same time.) but these fine particles are also dangerous to Turbine based aircraft. the ash is basically volcanic glass. the turbines of jet engines get hot enough inside to melt the ash into glass, which then clogs up moving parts and the small vents used to let in air for cooling. causes the turbines to literally over heat and melt themselves.

which means two things:
even between periods of ash fall in CE, if your Flying PA or hover vehicles get above a few thousand feet, they run the risk of destroying their engines.

and, this is more speculative, that electric drive helicopters, Tilt rotors, and propeller planes may be able to fly even during times of ashfall, and definitely should be usable during the 'calm periods' between eruptions. with an electric drive (running on batteries or nuclear power) there is no turbines to be gummed up by the ash. and the external propellers/Rotors of such planes operate at much lower temperature, and should be adaptable to keep external ash from getting into the moving parts as much. you likely would still have terrible maintenance issues from fine ash getting into seals, eroding things, and what not, but that should be easier to adjust to with just more frequent inspections and repairs.

this is kinda valuable since airpower is a useful tool for scouting, moving supplies, rescue, and also combat. having to step back a few generations in terms of the aircraft being used is a small price to pay for getting access to the sky again.

[bobharly]

Good research. Answered a question that I hadn't even thought of yet. Using environmental reasons to go low tech! Heck, people might even have to go exploring on foot...

And the ash in the water supply is good to know to.

When I was doing research on nuclear bombs, I had to limit the number of nuclear strikes on US soil or the whole continent would be irradiated whether you were in a strike zone or not.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Running off of batteries/fuel cells/nuke power….you still have the turbines that drive the air making the thrust of the engine.
Turbines are just enclosed sets of propellers.

You are right that, lets call them Macro-Propeller aircraft, would fair better in dusty environment then turbine driven thrusters.
Even so, they would still need a high maintenance cycle then normal clear skies operations.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, a good question i think growing out of that though.. how many pure electric drive "macro propeller" aircraft and helicopters would be around for a military to press into service?

and yeah, the ash would cause a fair amount of wear on the others parts too, but it would be similar to operating in say, the desert. which is doable if you step up your inspections and maintenance schedule to cope, or reduce the number and duration of sorties to reduce wear. for most Chaos Earth groups i suspect it would be a bit of both.. since your scavenging or parts for such vehicles you want the existing parts to last as long as possible, so you'd try to avoid running the vehicle for too long in the really bad conditions, and keep a close eye on it's parts and maintenance.

[glitterboy2098]

was reading through the creatures of chaos books, realized a few things..

the various bird song weaknesses of the apocalypse demons are likely going to be hard to use. they make the demons weaker sure, but the sounds involved are not ones that the bird would likely be making if there is a battle with a big old demon nearby.
plus given the condition of chaos earth (cold, snow, ash, etc) good luck finding those birds in the first place.

more useful is the early warning abilities of crows, cats, dogs, and horses.. crows ought to be fairly common even in the cataclysm, being cold adapted, non-migratory, and scavengers. cats and dogs are similarly going to be easy to find anywhere there are people.

the HF cats instill into apoc demons is also handy, though not easy to weaponize. the ability of dogs to tell the difference between good and evil with supernatural beings, and their ability to inflict MD bites on supernatural beings, makes them fairly useful. and IMO their vulnerability as SDC being is not as big an issue as the book makes out. yes they are still only SDC, but there are plenty of real world examples of armor for dogs, both purpose made and improvised, so i have no doubt that anyone wanting to use canines to fight demons could whip up some body armor for their canine friends. and even if someone can't scrounge up some armor, the early warning ability alone would make a dog-handler type character a lifesaver. it is also worth noting that in many cultures, prior to the horse or other mounts becoming available, dogs were often used as a beast of burden. it would not be hard for a larger canine breed to act as such in CE, which could let the dog-handler pack more supplies. (and Dogs can pull sleds/carts too, further enhancing their ability to move cargo)

i also found it interesting that Music seems to be a weakness of all apoc demons.. which halves their attacks and bonuses. which gives a good excuse for players to mount speakers on their vehicles and pull an Apocalypse Now, or to sing in battle.

[Alrik Vas]

Interesting stuff, honestly. The volcano information is cool. Kinda makes me want to run a CE game...

[glitterboy2098]

Interesting stuff, honestly. The volcano information is cool. Kinda makes me want to run a CE game...

glad to hear it might be useful.

i think that the environmental conditions have gotten a bit too little attention in the Chaos Earth game books so far..

between the Ash and the Volcanic winter, it makes for very unique conditions. and ones that really should be playing a much larger role.

to be honest, the next CE book really should include a reprint the snow and cold conditions rules from rifts canada, including the stuff on how snowfall effects visibility. ashfalls greatly resemble snowfall so you wouldn't even need to add much new to cover ashfalls.

the medical side of ashfalls should of course be more of a background thing for the game.. something the GM keeps in mind and uses to give the game flavor, or as a plot hook. (like the group being sent out to scavenge water filtering systems and water storage tanks so that NEMA can start purifying water to supply the survivors.)

[glitterboy2098]

while the game idea i was doing these for has been put on hold until i feel a bit more confident running it, ithe rifter article based on the ideas for both is already about ~1/4 of the way done.. it helps i can leverage some stuff written for other uncompleted projects.

while this article isn't set in north america, i'm writing the new OCC's (various forms of civilian survivors) so that they'll be able to be used anywhere in CE.

[glitterboy2098]

ok, further research has revealed a few more things..

first i was overestimating the danger of Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovo​lcanoconiosis, apparently it takes prolonged exposure before your at a real risk for it, the condition would take a few years at worst to actually manifest. so it would likely not be a big issue in the "0 to one year" timeframe of the official CE game setting. it would however likely be a serious concern for survivors going into the 2nd dark age period 3-5 years onwards.
dangers of being in ashfalls would be difficulty breathing due to breathing in the fine ash (the silicosis occurs after years of accumulated damage) with wheezing, coughing, and runny nose - chars with asthma or pre-existing breathing problems would have some real danger. most of the problem ash is microscopic, so a cloth around the mouth would not really provide a lot of protection.. but a medical mask or shop mask probably would work, at least until it clogged up.
difficulty seeing due to microscopic ash getting into eyes (bloodshot, watering, gritty buildup) would also be an issue, so eye protection by goggles or similar would be important.

also, the weight of ash. much like snow, enough ash on top of things can collapse roofs and damage vehicles. since is ash is 300-400x denser than snow, depending on how much water it has absorbed, what would take feet of snow would require only a few inches of ash. when you consider that in CE your looking at several feet of ash in most areas of north america, plus multiple feet of snow, older buildings or those with flat or shallow incline roofs likely have had their roofs collapse. and since the roof is part of a building's load bearing structure, when the roof collapses it'll stress the walls, and much of the weight will now rest on the upper floors of buildings, which are not built to hold uip as much as a roof.. so it is likely that many buildings will collapse almost totally. many of those ruined buildings in the CE artwork likely were not destroyed by fighting or monsters, but probably just fell in on themselves due to the snow, ice, and ash.

Ash that gets wet (such as mixing with snow) also acts a lot like liquid concrete.. it flows like water, slowing as it sets and hardens. this will make the ground level pretty dangerous. it will clog up drains and culverts, entomb abandoned vehicles, and make walking and driving difficult.

between ashfalls things should be a bit better.. the ash layer will solidify and while it'll be uneven footing, you'll be able to walk or drive across it. but during an ashfall, especially a heavy one or one occurring during a snowstorm (or freezing rain, in the spring/summer periods) it would be very difficult to move around and you'd run the risk of getting stuck in the ash layer.

[RockJock]

One thing to remember with CE is things don't necessarily behave like we think. Take Europe, maybe the wind direction comes from the South instead of the West, bringing ash from the Met? If you want ash to be an issue in Western Europe it easily can be.

FYI, there is a string of islands on the North Atlantic that are volcanic, not just Iceland(Beerenberg as an example). Romania also has several volcanic mountainns that are considered active (Ciomadul). Then you have seamounts and underwater volcanoes ( for a short list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _volcanoes ).

Plus there are mountain chains in Atlantis. I don't think they are listed as volcanic, but could easily be.

[glitterboy2098]

while there probably would be some disruptions to the jet stream and what not, it is generally a good idea to consider occams law when dealing with hypotheticals. Non sunt multiplicanda entia sine necessitate ...Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity
unless there is specific evidence from one of the existing books to indicate that northern europe (aka scandinavia, germany, etc) was getting ash from the far south and far east, against the prevailing weather patterns for the region, it is generally simpler to assume that the real world ash scatter patterns would apply.

[eliakon]

while there probably would be some disruptions to the jet stream and what not, it is generally a good idea to consider occams law when dealing with hypotheticals. Non sunt multiplicanda entia sine necessitate ...Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity
unless there is specific evidence from one of the existing books to indicate that northern europe (aka scandinavia, germany, etc) was getting ash from the far south and far east, against the prevailing weather patterns for the region, it is generally simpler to assume that the real world ash scatter patterns would apply.

We know that Germany didn't get devastating ash falls since the NGR was able to maintain itself just fine. They didn't lose their farms, the forests weren't killed off et multiple cetera.
That to me, suggests that while they had ash falls, and it was probably bad it was not utterly catastrophic in most places.

[glitterboy2098]

certainly what WB5 and WB31 indicate. but Kevin S and the freelancers seem to like to make statements in otherwise unrelated books that can have some ripple effects.

[eliakon]

certainly what WB5 and WB31 indicate. but Kevin S and the freelancers seem to like to make statements in otherwise unrelated books that can have some ripple effects.

True.
But as far as I know there isn't any statement in any book about extensive ashfalls beyond that provided by the local volcanoes and normal distributions.

[keir451]

Per your mention of ash combining with snow, remember that this is happening during the winter, so Chicago is getting snowfall mixed with ash which would be gumming up the works for just about every vehicle and robot NEMA has. So all that and a demon invasion, too? Now consider places more directly inline with the eruption and ash fall such as Colorado. Places like Denver would be royally screwed, especially if the other volcanoes in the region, such as Buffalo Mountain in Silverthorne, Colorado (https://www.summitpost.org/object_list.php?object_type=1&distance_1=100&distance_lat_1=39.61700&distance_lon_1=-106.14200&map_1=1&is_open=1).
In this instance the eruption of Buffalo would likely decimate the ski resorts and pretty much kill the majority of the residents and tourists up there, as well as adding to the ash fall from the Yellowstone event, and then we (again) throw a major demon incursion on top of it and NEMA and any US military forces in the area would be severely strained trying to evacuate the (current population 704, 621, by 2098 easily double that or more) millions of residents and tourists. You'd have cars, buses, trains and aircraft completely shut down, robots and power armor would have their joint and intakes and air filters being clogged rapidly and with the demon incursion there'd be no time available to service your equipment.

[guardiandashi]

One thing to remember, look at the eruption of mt st helens ash clouds from the eruption went around the world in -14 days, which could potentially drop some ash anywhere in the northern hemisphere. And that was just 1 volcano going off.
With that said, ash is a very aggresive abrasive, its all sharp/jagged edges unlike most sand,
As far as the loading ya that was totally an issue

As far as filters to protect a cloth wrapped across the mouth/nose is like to help vs the larger particles, but the smaller ones you would need to wet the cloth, or use proper filter masks,

[eliakon]

One other thing to consider
The recent eruption in Hawaii has demonstrated all sorts of volcanic mechanisms and effects that were not previously high profile.
much of it is dangerous... but they are evacuating so no problem...
...of course in CE there isn't anywhere to evacuate to. And it is happening all over the place.

[glitterboy2098]

One thing to remember, look at the eruption of mt st helens ash clouds from the eruption went around the world in -14 days, which could potentially drop some ash anywhere in the northern hemisphere. And that was just 1 volcano going off.

while this is true, there is a difference between "ash made it somewhere" and "enough ash made it to worry about.
when Eyjafjallajökull erupted in 2010, it generated an ash cloud that shut down air travel across all of europe and much of the Atlantic, stretching halfway across russia due to the prevailing winds.
the amount of actual ash that fell across europe was minuscule. roughly the equivalent of a layer of dust after about a week without cleaning your house.

One other thing to consider
The recent eruption in Hawaii has demonstrated all sorts of volcanic mechanisms and effects that were not previously high profile.
much of it is dangerous... but they are evacuating so no problem...
...of course in CE there isn't anywhere to evacuate to. And it is happening all over the place.

volcanic eruptions generate some interesting stuff yes. but it is fairly 'short ranged' relative to the point of eruption, and there aren't any eruption sites close enough to any existing CE setting region that it would be a big concern.

but the Dead Reign sourcebook Hell Followed is a good source to have for CE, especially if you are setting your games away from the canon midwest area. the various disasters it covers can be very useful. blizzards, avalanches, tidal waves, earthquakes, flooding, power plant failures, toxic leaks, and yes, Volcano's. all there. plus a bunch of good stuff on humanitarian relief centers and surviving government sites, both things NEMA would be involved heavily with.

[eliakon]

One other thing to consider
The recent eruption in Hawaii has demonstrated all sorts of volcanic mechanisms and effects that were not previously high profile.
much of it is dangerous... but they are evacuating so no problem...
...of course in CE there isn't anywhere to evacuate to. And it is happening all over the place.

volcanic eruptions generate some interesting stuff yes. but it is fairly 'short ranged' relative to the point of eruption, and there aren't any eruption sites close enough to any existing CE setting region that it would be a big concern.

but the Dead Reign sourcebook Hell Followed is a good source to have for CE, especially if you are setting your games away from the canon midwest area. the various disasters it covers can be very useful. blizzards, avalanches, tidal waves, earthquakes, flooding, power plant failures, toxic leaks, and yes, Volcano's. all there. plus a bunch of good stuff on humanitarian relief centers and surviving government sites, both things NEMA would be involved heavily with.

Well, we do have Arizona, Mount Saint Helens and eight other volcanos and that is just in the American West. That doesn't count the volcanic destruction of Mexico City or any of the others...we have a total of 33 eruptions on day one world wide for instance. That doesn't count the Yellowstone Super Volcano that blows on day Two.

Also...
What exactly would "short ranged" be for something the size of the Volcano in Arizona let alone Yellowstone.
I mean if it is raining ash like snow in the midwest then it should also be raining all the other nifty by products.

[glitterboy2098]

not a lot of Volcano's near chicago-detroit area though. which is where all the current books are set. while Ash from yellowstone and the rest would spread all over, things like volcanic glass fibers, solidified lava drops, Obsidian pebbles, peridot gems, Volcanic Bombs and the like would be largely confined to the surrounding territory.. so in yellowstone's case, that would be southern idaho, wyoming, and southern montana.
after all, ash is pretty lightweight compared to those other things. more easily borne by winds.

[keir451]

not a lot of Volcano's near chicago-detroit area though. which is where all the current books are set. while Ash from yellowstone and the rest would spread all over, things like volcanic glass fibers, solidified lava drops, Obsidian pebbles, peridot gems, Volcanic Bombs and the like would be largely confined to the surrounding territory.. so in yellowstone's case, that would be southern idaho, wyoming, and southern montana.
after all, ash is pretty lightweight compared to those other things. more easily borne by winds.

You forgot Colorado in in the case of Yellowstone, much of the ash would wind up there too.

[Fell]

Possibly, just maybe, the dimensional shifting Great Barrier Mountains dissipates much of the worst of the fall out. At least the ash fallout that crosses through the Rockies. With its open portals and acting like a great big filter!

At least that's how I'm writing things lol

Sure the destruction wrought by the Yellowstone caldera is massive, devastating, but in the newly magic rich lands of Chaos Earth, why not make the GBM help alleviate the ash fall out.



[2 cents deposited]

Game on!

[glitterboy2098]

actually the yellowstone ash originates east of the rockies and the prevailing winds send it eastward.
https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/vsc/images/i ... w_585h.png
https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/vsc/images/i ... w_696h.jpg
https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/volcanoes/ye ... ge_91.html

chicago isn't within the known historic ashfall areas, but it is close enough that it is likely most of the ash in the current canon books came from there. most of the west coast volcano's wouldn't be contributing much to the chicago area ashfall.. though as mentioned in the book, the westcoast would be rapidly buried due to proximity.

this actually helps explain how the NEMA troops could go from Atlanta to Chicago.. Atlanta would be largely clear due to the lack of any local volcanic activity, and would be pretty much free of the yellowstone cloud at the time. so it would be fairly clear at lower altitudes.

and before you resort to 'a wizard did it" i would suggest actually doing some research into how bad things actually would be and how it would work in nature.. this stuff isn't all that hard to find.

[keir451]

and the like would be largely confined to the surrounding territory.. so in yellowstone's case, that would be southern idaho, wyoming, and southern montana.

As well as Colorado according to this: https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/vsc/images/i ... w_585h.png
This shows the Mesa ashfall going right across Colorado and Denver. As for the new "Barrier Peaks" in Rifts, we have no idea when they showed up.
All we know about the west is that, according to the book, when Yellowstone lit off it took NORAD and the Rockies with it.

[Fell]

and before you resort to 'a wizard did it" i would suggest actually doing some research into how bad things actually would be and how it would work in nature.. this stuff isn't all that hard to find.

Your research is great. Good stuff. I too have looked into it. I don't recall knocking your research. Just offered out that the massive shifting of the Great Barrier mountains might allow some ash fallout to exit earth through them.

"resort to a wizard did it" ----> adding in flavor, its a game, with wizards....

"actually doing some research" ----> well ouch and thanks.

[takes 2 cents back ... whatever (I must be feeling sensitive today) *lol's at self*, have a nice day, if I somehow misunderstood your post, sorry]

[glitterboy2098]

not meaning to sound antagonisitic.. if i do it is probably because i've run into a lot of people who do knock using actual research, and that tends to leave certain unthinking responses.. so sorry.

but what i meant was that resorting to magical explanations for mundane problems and issues (aka "a wizard did it" or sometimes "deus ex machina" in the more extreme cases) is generally viewed as a shortcut in writing, and usually disliked because it implies a certain degree of lazyiness in creating your story/world. so it would be prudent fro ma writing perspective to look into non-magical solutions to the issue first.

in this case, i would ask "why do we need to remove ash?"
because ash is heavier than air and thus will fall pretty rapidly as these things go. sure the lightest particulates will stay up for a fair amount of time but those largely on effect the climate.. causing the cold weather we see in CE. but the heavier ash that blocks the sun and makes air travel so dangerous is going to fall out within a few days.
and it isn't like there is a continuous source of ash.. as i pointed out, volcanic eruptions are fairly brief things, especially the really energetic ones like yellowstone. the ash production would last at best a few weeks, heaviest at the start then tapering off, then you'd get a period of months with no eruption at all, then another, usually weaker eruption. repeated several times, getting weaker each time. within a few years there would be no more eruptions.

so the kind of omnipresent ashclouds would only really be an issue for the first month of two of Chaos Earth's timeline.. which btw is where the main book that talks about this stuff assumes you will be setting your game.. right as the cataclysm hit. that later books would move the main setting to 3-4 months after and start ignoring the ashfall issue was not apparently considered. (i am still not convinced they had plans for supplements beyond the magic and monsters sourcebooks originally)

and once the amount of ash being produced tapers off, the clouds in general should starting clearing up partially.. remember that clouds are part of the water cycle. with the frigid cold weather the eruptions cause with their suspended ash, the water cycle is going to be disrupted. the heavy snows we see will be taking water out of the atmosphere.. but with no hot weather or sunlight to evaporate water to replace it, the atmosphere will get fairly dry, and that means the clouds are going to get fairly thin and the precipitation will be light at best. obviously location will effect this.. the tropics will probably clear up first which will help keep the cycle going in general, but all that does is push things like storms into being much more at the whim of the winds and moevements of regional air masses.. the more north you go the more screwed up the water cycle will still be.

so i'm not convinced we need some sort of magical or supernatural explanation.

[keir451]

not meaning to sound antagonisitic.. if i do it is probably because i've run into a lot of people who do knock using actual research, and that tends to leave certain unthinking responses.. so sorry.

but what i meant was that resorting to magical explanations for mundane problems and issues (aka "a wizard did it" or sometimes "deus ex machina" in the more extreme cases) is generally viewed as a shortcut in writing, and usually disliked because it implies a certain degree of lazyiness in creating your story/world. so it would be prudent fro ma writing perspective to look into non-magical solutions to the issue first.

in this case, i would ask "why do we need to remove ash?"
because ash is heavier than air and thus will fall pretty rapidly as these things go. sure the lightest particulates will stay up for a fair amount of time but those largely on effect the climate.. causing the cold weather we see in CE. but the heavier ash that blocks the sun and makes air travel so dangerous is going to fall out within a few days.
and it isn't like there is a continuous source of ash.. as i pointed out, volcanic eruptions are fairly brief things, especially the really energetic ones like yellowstone. the ash production would last at best a few weeks, heaviest at the start then tapering off, then you'd get a period of months with no eruption at all, then another, usually weaker eruption. repeated several times, getting weaker each time. within a few years there would be no more eruptions.

so the kind of omnipresent ashclouds would only really be an issue for the first month of two of Chaos Earth's timeline.. which btw is where the main book that talks about this stuff assumes you will be setting your game.. right as the cataclysm hit. that later books would move the main setting to 3-4 months after and start ignoring the ashfall issue was not apparently considered. (i am still not convinced they had plans for supplements beyond the magic and monsters sourcebooks originally)

and once the amount of ash being produced tapers off, the clouds in general should starting clearing up partially.. remember that clouds are part of the water cycle. with the frigid cold weather the eruptions cause with their suspended ash, the water cycle is going to be disrupted. the heavy snows we see will be taking water out of the atmosphere.. but with no hot weather or sunlight to evaporate water to replace it, the atmosphere will get fairly dry, and that means the clouds are going to get fairly thin and the precipitation will be light at best. obviously location will effect this.. the tropics will probably clear up first which will help keep the cycle going in general, but all that does is push things like storms into being much more at the whim of the winds and moevements of regional air masses.. the more north you go the more screwed up the water cycle will still be.

so i'm not convinced we need some sort of magical or supernatural explanation.

Very true. Using "handwavium" instead of reasonable explanations doesn't always work well.
Considering the stories of "The Year Without Summer", the multiple eruptions around the world on top of Yellow Stone and the others in the US would have a pretty detrimental effect on global climate for at least a year possibly more and the immediate effect on things such as air travel due to ash and ground travel in areas where the eruptions disrupt roadways would hamper the efforts of groups such as NEMA or local military and police forces to be able to respond to these emergencies. These events, by themselves, while damaging, would not necessarily spell the end of civilization as is described in the book, but the demon invasion combined with all that certainly could.

[glitterboy2098]

i have no doubt that whatever weird events are going on over the Rockies would have an effect on the weather and ash.. i'm just doubtful that we need to hold it up as "how we survived the ash".

especially since we don't actually know what is going on in that region.. even in RUE, the bit about the "alien mountains" is just rumor.. volcanic and tectonic activity combined with the heavy ashfall could easily have altered the observable geography enough from pre-rifts maps to give the impression of an alien landscape to the largely uneducated post-rifts inhabitants. the stuff going on over them in CE could easily just be like the Mystic Triangles in effect, rather than D-shifting like you see in the post-catalysm Appalachians.

[keir451]

i have no doubt that whatever weird events are going on over the Rockies would have an effect on the weather and ash.. i'm just doubtful that we need to hold it up as "how we survived the ash".

especially since we don't actually know what is going on in that region.. even in RUE, the bit about the "alien mountains" is just rumor.. volcanic and tectonic activity combined with the heavy ashfall could easily have altered the observable geography enough from pre-rifts maps to give the impression of an alien landscape to the largely uneducated post-rifts inhabitants. the stuff going on over them in CE could easily just be like the Mystic Triangles in effect, rather than D-shifting like you see in the post-catalysm Appalachians.

Nah, I'm not holding it up as "how we survived the ash", for me it's more like "how we all died from ash fall, hypothermia and demonic forces".
My friend and I are working on a story/adventure for Denver, CO. called "The Fall of Denver", we detail the final battle of the US Army (the last of them before they were to be finally rolled in NEMA) vs. demonic forces at Denver. Then we have another one set in the "present" of Rifts where, due to strange reports from Erin Tarn, Lazlo & New Lazlo send an archaeological expedition to uncover more information about the "Golden Age" from the ruins of Denver. Unfortunately Denver has become kind of like Madhaven where strange supernatural events occur (w/out the total mind effery that you get from Madhaven) due to the sheer number of deaths that occurred there.

[eliakon]

So a question is...how big was the Yellowstone eruption?
I mean it took out NORAD.
That is a long way away from Wyoming and hardened to boot. So taking it out is... a trick.

[glitterboy2098]

the Cheyenne Mountain Complex relies on ventilation from the outside (filtered, of course) and has its radio antennae placed just along the surface of the maintain. the eruption blast doesn't have to take it out, it could be rendered silenced with just enough ashfall. given its proximity to yellowstone, it is likely it suffered through a dozen feet plus. sattelite comm is down even before the dishes would get buried, and any hardlines out from it would only work so long as the places they are connected to retain power to relay the messages..

so yeah, given the circumstances, the mountain going silent could be the result of yellowstone even if all they got was ashfall from it.

[keir451]

So a question is...how big was the Yellowstone eruption?
I mean it took out NORAD.
That is a long way away from Wyoming and hardened to boot. So taking it out is... a trick.

That may depend on what other volcanoes erupted as well, Yellowstone isn't the only one in that region.

the Cheyenne Mountain Complex relies on ventilation from the outside (filtered, of course) and has its radio antennae placed just along the surface of the maintain. the eruption blast doesn't have to take it out, it could be rendered silenced with just enough ashfall. given its proximity to yellowstone, it is likely it suffered through a dozen feet plus. sattelite comm is down even before the dishes would get buried, and any hardlines out from it would only work so long as the places they are connected to retain power to relay the messages..

so yeah, given the circumstances, the mountain going silent could be the result of yellowstone even if all they got was ashfall from it.

So following this line of reasoning, NORAD was rendered incommunicado due to the Yellowstone eruption, which by all theoretical accounts would be pretty massive, then you've got any other local (Colorado based that is) volcanoes that would/could add to the damage/destruction as well. Consider that there are 169 volcanoes in the US and though some of them haven't erupted in millions of years it may very well be that the extreme level of volcanism sets off ones long thought dormant and end up either burying the Cheyenne Mountain complex or (somehow) destroys it completely.

[eliakon]

the Cheyenne Mountain Complex relies on ventilation from the outside (filtered, of course) and has its radio antennae placed just along the surface of the maintain. the eruption blast doesn't have to take it out, it could be rendered silenced with just enough ashfall. given its proximity to yellowstone, it is likely it suffered through a dozen feet plus. sattelite comm is down even before the dishes would get buried, and any hardlines out from it would only work so long as the places they are connected to retain power to relay the messages..

so yeah, given the circumstances, the mountain going silent could be the result of yellowstone even if all they got was ashfall from it.

Considering Chaos Earth has the eruption "taking out part of the Rockies" and "rock, lava and volcanic ash begin to rain down across the United States and Southwestern Canada from the Pacific Coast to Nebraska."
that sounds a like a LOT more than just some ashfall and local effects. It sounds like the volcano was catastrophically more powerful than it had any right to be sure... but that is what happened.
Especially since the communications lines underground survived all the other earthquakes and volcanoes before this as all the Archies were in contact with each other right up until the eruption.
I will also note that Norad isn't written off as "we lost radio contact as the ash built up" but "they think its gone"

This maps well with the tidal waves that move 100miles inland for example. Things appear to be a lot more powerful than they should be... almost as if they were being supercharged by magic and not simply natural events...

[glitterboy2098]

actually the bit about 'taking out part of the rockies' is i nthe same spot as the "it's gone" line for NORAD.. CE main book, Pg18. it is smack in the middle of the short story section (2nd person limited, focused on General Sawyer set Dec 25th in Atlanta) and the person saying it also specifies that there is "nothing confirmed, but my sources say it's gone. Super-volcano" making it clear he is not relating actual information, just what is in the rumor mill. when general Sawyer asks him who his sources are, he says "um, nothing official, but..um, you know, the grapevine." and then goes on to establish there has been no communications for 48 hours.. meanie that they lost any contact with the rest of NA the day before yellowstone blew.
plus not only is this someone who admits he has no clue about how accurate his claim is saying it, the whole scene is occurring in Atlanta, about as far as you can get from any region that might have actually have heard about or seen what happened. so the rumor mill would have almost nothing to go on beyond fear and whatever speculation the Atlanta NEMA personnel can produce.
now his details about the tidal waves wrecking the eastern seaboard can be taken with a bit more confidence because those events occured 36 hours before, right as the cataclysm started, and thus before they lost contact. though the fact that Atlanta still stands suggests that we can throw out the RUE description of events (since the tidal waves described in RUE would have easily wiped out atlanta as well.. the RUE description always did clash with the relative lack of apparent destruction we see on the east coast in rifts.. places like Disneyworld or the ruins of cape Canaveral wouldn't still be standing if RUE's description was true.)


as far as the "ash, lava, and rock raining down from the pacific coasts to nebraska".. ash definately would spread that far,
https://www.sciencenews.org/sites/defau ... is_860.jpg
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ ... h-zone-map
http://sciencestatic.aws.aaas.org.s3.am ... olcano.gif

and you might get some small fragments of lavarock thrown that far.. notice though that it doesn't say how big these rocks are. nor how thickly they are falling. but it matches pretty well to the models of the eruptions in all other respects, which makes me doubt that we need to assume large chunks being thrown around. nor that it is in any way stronger than is expected. (albeit the description is pretty close to the "worst case scenario" models) that so many volcano's would erupt at once suggests some interesting if unknown things going on in the mantle with the return of magic, but i still don't see any signs that the eruptions were in any way stronger than would be expected or behaving oddly.

[eliakon]

Atlanta likely did have sever flooding as one of its many problems.
We know that because the books tell us ex-cathedra that there were all these tidal waves and they reached 100 miles inland. That is not narrative, but ex-cathedra stated information.
The damage cause at the ends of the trips, and how deeply each wave penetrated is up to discussion, but the fact that the waves happened or that some of them reached 100 miles inland isn't.

[keir451]

the Cheyenne Mountain Complex relies on ventilation from the outside (filtered, of course) and has its radio antennae placed just along the surface of the maintain. the eruption blast doesn't have to take it out, it could be rendered silenced with just enough ashfall. given its proximity to yellowstone, it is likely it suffered through a dozen feet plus. sattelite comm is down even before the dishes would get buried, and any hardlines out from it would only work so long as the places they are connected to retain power to relay the messages..

so yeah, given the circumstances, the mountain going silent could be the result of yellowstone even if all they got was ashfall from it.

Considering Chaos Earth has the eruption "taking out part of the Rockies" and "rock, lava and volcanic ash begin to rain down across the United States and Southwestern Canada from the Pacific Coast to Nebraska."
that sounds a like a LOT more than just some ashfall and local effects. It sounds like the volcano was catastrophically more powerful than it had any right to be sure... but that is what happened.
Especially since the communications lines underground survived all the other earthquakes and volcanoes before this as all the Archies were in contact with each other right up until the eruption.
I will also note that Norad isn't written off as "we lost radio contact as the ash built up" but "they think its gone"

This maps well with the tidal waves that move 100miles inland for example. Things appear to be a lot more powerful than they should be... almost as if they were being supercharged by magic and not simply natural events...

In actual reality scientists don't *actually* know WHAT Yellowstone is or what would happen if it erupted as they've never *actually* seen a live "super volcano". But the IDEA is that the damage would be significant either way. (I live with an actual geologist, so I asked)