Cold-Blooded transformation

[HarleeKnight]

If a juicer undergoes the process would he keep the higher sdc/hp? I ask because the higher sdc/hp comes from the drugs and if the drugs are no longer there...

[eliakon]

This is a perennial argument
One side (that I support) is that you go into Detox as soon as you start... ergo you go Juicer -> apply Detox -> Apply Cold Blood

Another side is of the opinion that you should just keep them and that Cold Blood with 1000+ MDC are a good idea

A third side is of the opinion that the Cold Blood process would simply not work (the drugs in the system would mess up the delicate alchemical balances)

[Mack]

eliakon summed the discussion pretty well. (And I applaud him for sharing other's views and not just his own.)

FWIW, I agree his first statement. The Cold Blood process would detox the Juicer. While the text isn't clear on the subject, I don't believe the author intended for the Cold Blooded to be combined with other classes in that manner.

Your mileage may very.

[HarleeKnight]

I agree with eliakon, it's seems a bit munchkin to combine them but the argument for RAW was made and I needed other opinions. Thanks.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see an argument for halving a Cold Blooded Mega Juicer's mdc, but think that in a high powered game societal stigma is probably sufficient.

[dreicunan]

I could see an argument for halving a Cold Blooded Mega Juicer's mdc, but think that in a high powered game societal stigma is probably sufficient.

Mega-juicer is out, as the Cold-blooded process only affects sdc beings.

Titan Juicers, however, are a go.

I am firmly in the "this is a way for a juicer to avoid detox penalties" camp, because Juicers are not immune to magic. I am unconvinced by the arguments that it would cause them to undego detox. The part of the process where you are still alive is not long enough for detox to kick in.

Now, I don't think that they would keep all the bonuses, either. A newly minted Juicer only gets half their bonuses at first. That tells me that the other half are growth induced, not merely chemical stimulant induced. The chemicals and biocomp may be needed to maintain the growth over time, but the flesh is there, and thus would be affected by the transformation. It is the same thing a someone taking steroids to promote muscle growth - if they quit the muscle mass doesn't go away overnight. Thus, I'd say that Juicer becoming a Cold Blooded keeps their full base stats and bonuses from skills, plus half their Juicer stat bonuses (other bonuses like auto-dodge or combat bonuses would be gone, of course).

Others clearly disagree. Do what works best for your group.

[eliakon]

I will agree that the RAW is pretty hazy as there are arguments for both sides with RAW support.
The Juicer books states that the act of stopping drugs and removing your implants is automatic detox... so by that RAW Detox is Detox is Detox

The flip side is that by RAW the Cold Blood is done quickly while alive and that thus Detox should take time which allows for you to keep your Juicer Stats and then add on the Cold Blood bonuses on top of them.

My theory would be that if you COULD do that, you would be a classic example of a "mega hero" (two power categories).
If a player wanted to do it, I would slap on the Mega-Hero XP chart, give them an Achilles heel as a side effect of the interactions on wave them on their way (no other mega powers, in effect the massive boosts are their mega powers)

[Incriptus]

To paraphrase Roger Rabbit: "No, not at any time. Only when it was Fun(ny)"

If you wanted your current juicer to join a group with a Cosmo Knight, Lizard Mage, Godling, Super-Powered Vagabond and Hundred Handed ... it may very well work.

If you wanted to create a Cold-Blooded-Juicer to join a group with a Crazy, Rogue Scholar, City Rat and Dogboy ... I don't think it would work out at all.

[eliakon]

To paraphrase Roger Rabbit: "No, not at any time. Only when it was Fun(ny)"

If you wanted your current juicer to join a group with a Cosmo Knight, Lizard Mage, Godling, Super-Powered Vagabond and Hundred Handed ... it may very well work.

If you wanted to create a Cold-Blooded-Juicer to join a group with a Crazy, Rogue Scholar, City Rat and Dogboy ... I don't think it would work out at all.

^This so much this^

There is a reason that GMs have leeway. The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends gets together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

[Blue_Lion]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

[dreicunan]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?

[dragonfett]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?

I would say the bio-comp would fight this ritual as it changes the body's working parameters, of which it has it's own very specific parameters. But the real question comes down to how long does it take to successfully detox for a Juicer? The books don't say (as far as I can tell), but certainly at least some of a Juicer's stats come from muscle bulk, and to me would seem rediculous to say that all goes away before the ritual is complete. That being said, I would say that the Juicer has to roll for insanities because they were changes while in the process of detoxing.

[Blue_Lion]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?

If the ritual is slowly changing the body like lowering the body temp it would. If the ritual instantly changes it then it would not fight the ritual but would attempt to force the body back to its original parameters which could result in severe case of body immune system attacking the body.

[dreicunan]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?

If the ritual is slowly changing the body like lowering the body temp it would. If the ritual instantly changes it then it would not fight the ritual but would attempt to force the body back to its original parameters which could result in severe case of body immune system attacking the body.

Yeah, I really don't buy using transformation magic on a juicer being a way to cause an auto-immune response!

I completely disagree with your view of how the biocomp would work here. It is a magic potion that lowers the body temperature. Juicers get no special saves against magic. They don't get to wake up early if they eat food enchanted by the sleep spell. Magic trumps the biocomp.

[eliakon]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

Do you also see their biocomp interefering with other magic rituals? If so, which ones? If not, why only this one?

If the ritual is slowly changing the body like lowering the body temp it would. If the ritual instantly changes it then it would not fight the ritual but would attempt to force the body back to its original parameters which could result in severe case of body immune system attacking the body.

Yeah, I really don't buy using transformation magic on a juicer being a way to cause an auto-immune response!

I completely disagree with your view of how the biocomp would work here. It is a magic potion that lowers the body temperature. Juicers get no special saves against magic. They don't get to wake up early if they eat food enchanted by the sleep spell. Magic trumps the biocomp.

the question is if the biocomp and its nanites and drugs and the rest will cause damage as it *tries* to undo the deliberate damage the Juicer is inflicting on itself during the transformation.

That said at the end of the day it is up to a particular group if they feel that this is a "bug" or a "feature". Specifically if PCs with 1000+ MDC and most physical stats in the 30s or more are a desired feature of their game or if they are to be treated as a bug.

If that is what your group wants in your game, then interpret the RAW to allow it by all means. If that is not what your group then the RAW also allow you to just as easily not allow it.

[Curbludgeon]

Titan Juicer... are a go.

I had 'em backwards, man, whoops. I'm cool with Titan Juicer Cold Blooded. They're reduced to robotic strength, look half-zombified, don't have much in the way of skills, and don't have access to magic, supers, or much psionics, so 1000 mdc or so isn't that big of a deal.

[Mack]

Clarification: They don’t look half-zombified. There’s only a -1 to PB. (The illustration isn’t representative.)

[Curbludgeon]

I think I'd very much rather go with the picture being representative, and the creators being less so, to be honest. The PB creative process has been long predicated on picture before text, so if that's what KS thinks what -1PB looks like, it's best to make that explicit.

[kaid]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.

[dreicunan]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.

Yet not instantly. We also see this with Juicer combat bonuses, which are halved in the first round of unexpected combat. Not completely eliminated, just halved. Also, one can consider that if an athlete is using steroids and then stops, they don't drop 30 lbs the next day. So even if it were necessary to get rid of the biocomp - and it isn't because the biocomp does not provide any immunity or resistance to the effect of magic - it beggars belief to suggest that a juicer would have gone through detox and sufferred those penalties by the time the part of the cold blood ritual where one is still alive had concluded so long as the people doing the ritual were ready.

[eliakon]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.

Yet not instantly. We also see this with Juicer combat bonuses, which are halved in the first round of unexpected combat. Not completely eliminated, just halved. Also, one can consider that if an athlete is using steroids and then stops, they don't drop 30 lbs the next day. So even if it were necessary to get rid of the biocomp - and it isn't because the biocomp does not provide any immunity or resistance to the effect of magic - it beggars belief to suggest that a juicer would have gone through detox and sufferred those penalties by the time the part of the cold blood ritual where one is still alive had concluded so long as the people doing the ritual were ready.

And how long does the ritual take?
That's not mentioned. Just that they drink a potion that lowers their temperature.
Then they are slowly drained of blood
Then they get new stuff added at an undescribed rate
Then more rituals
Then burried for two days
So the question (which litterally has no canon answer hense the endless circular argument) becomes "is the ritual duration enough time for the body to stop being juiced or not"

As for how long it takes to detox we know that they get the bonuses basically instantaniously. As soon as they have recovered from surgery they have half their bonuses already.
Thus it is pretty clear (as if it wasn't already) that the drugs and nanites used are utterly cinimeatic and not realistic. And thus we can also make the claim that they suffer the fairly normal cinematic trope of "when what ever was providing a boost is removed you instantly go back to basic"
One way to look at this is that the drugs are what is providing the bonus. Not their flesh, but the drugs
Thus the cold blood, who does not have the drugs, is not boosted anymore than a cold one would keep extra MDC granted by cyber armor.
Again, this is just my way of providing one possible take.

However, at the end of the day the only One True Answer <tm> is "ask your GM what they prefer to have used in their game" because that is the only canon answer avaliable. No amount of back and forth "do not" "do so" "do not" is going to change things here anymore than it ever changed things on the playground. And that is 100% what this debate is at its core becuase neither side has any canon to stand on and is simply what they feel the game should be doing based on how they personally interpret an array of (potentially conflicting) different passages.

[dreicunan]

I do not see it about an immunity to magic but as something the juicers biocomp would fight. Thus preventing the cold blood from taking properly causing the conversion to fail. So to remove the biocomp you have to by the rules detox the juicers.

(it is not a hard rule but how I see it.)

That is pretty much my take on it. And even if some of the juice was still in your system the effects of being a juicer are due to constant fine tuned manipulations by the biocomp. The transformation would negate that manipulation so the thing that keeps juicers super powerful is gone. This is shown by the detox rules once you remove the biocomp they degrade back to baseline pretty fast.

Yet not instantly. We also see this with Juicer combat bonuses, which are halved in the first round of unexpected combat. Not completely eliminated, just halved. Also, one can consider that if an athlete is using steroids and then stops, they don't drop 30 lbs the next day. So even if it were necessary to get rid of the biocomp - and it isn't because the biocomp does not provide any immunity or resistance to the effect of magic - it beggars belief to suggest that a juicer would have gone through detox and sufferred those penalties by the time the part of the cold blood ritual where one is still alive had concluded so long as the people doing the ritual were ready.

And how long does the ritual take?
That's not mentioned. Just that they drink a potion that lowers their temperature.
Then they are slowly drained of blood
Then they get new stuff added at an undescribed rate
Then more rituals
Then burried for two days
So the question (which litterally has no canon answer hense the endless circular argument) becomes "is the ritual duration enough time for the body to stop being juiced or not"

As for how long it takes to detox we know that they get the bonuses basically instantaniously. As soon as they have recovered from surgery they have half their bonuses already.
Thus it is pretty clear (as if it wasn't already) that the drugs and nanites used are utterly cinimeatic and not realistic. And thus we can also make the claim that they suffer the fairly normal cinematic trope of "when what ever was providing a boost is removed you instantly go back to basic"
One way to look at this is that the drugs are what is providing the bonus. Not their flesh, but the drugs
Thus the cold blood, who does not have the drugs, is not boosted anymore than a cold one would keep extra MDC granted by cyber armor.
Again, this is just my way of providing one possible take.

However, at the end of the day the only One True Answer <tm> is "ask your GM what they prefer to have used in their game" because that is the only canon answer avaliable. No amount of back and forth "do not" "do so" "do not" is going to change things here anymore than it ever changed things on the playground. And that is 100% what this debate is at its core becuase neither side has any canon to stand on and is simply what they feel the game should be doing based on how they personally interpret an array of (potentially conflicting) different passages.

Fair enough, but note that the duration that matters is,how long it takes to drink a potion and slowly drain the blood, as the blood draining kills the person undergoing the ritual. Is it possible that this process taks more than a day. Sure. Is it likely.

That said, I do find it interesting that you look at them starting with only half bonuses and use that to argue that all the bonuses come from drugs. The fact that it takes them a few weeks to get all their bonuses suggests to me that part of that bonus is not just solely coming from the drugs. Titan Juicers obviously take extra time to gain the mass, and that mass is clearly a factor in how much SDC and HP they gain as a bonus. That mass isn't disappearing overnight.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

If a juicer undergoes the process ...

It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.

I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.

[dreicunan]

If a juicer undergoes the process ...

It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.

I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.

You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.

Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.

The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.

[13eowulf]

If a juicer undergoes the process ...

It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.

I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.

You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.

Well..... actually... yes, there are. Just not in this particular thread.

Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.

The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.

It could also be argued that the act of trying to avoid detox penalties, having your cake and eating it too, is what is munchkin. Not the end result.

[eliakon]

If a juicer undergoes the process ...

It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.

I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.

You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.

Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.

The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.

And your making an apples to oranges comparison
The Cold Blood vs Borg in Heavy armor is disingenuous as it is a CB with no gear vs a Borg with Heavy Armor. The weakest possible juicer/CB has more MDC than your borg does
It also has more PS, Regenerates every round (four times FASTER than the dragon mind you), and can come back from anything but the total destruction of the head.

And if it was an even moderately potent Juicer it is likely to have better stats than a Borg can ever get. Ever.

And this is before the Cold Blood gets to put on any of its gear.

So no, the claim that "A combat borg is better than this so obviously it is not munchkin" is pretty laughably false.

[Blue_Lion]

Juicer rue stats
minimal
PS 22
2+12+100+1+1 sdc
3+2+1+10 HP


Max
PS 42
12+12+400+6+6 sdc
30+12+40+HP lvl 1 add 6 per additional level.



That does not seam weaker than a dragons in rue.

Minimal
PS 8
110 MDC



Max
PS 34.
610 MDC lvl 1 750 lvl 15

The lower end stats the juicer would seam to win and the higher end stats the dragon would have more MDC, and that is without any armor, if we fallow the rue form SoT and limit body armor other than exoskeleton the armor can add another 120 MD(note this rule does not apply to TW or exoskeletal armor if the juicer has skills and connections it is feasible for him to get ahold of suit of PA to add 425 MDC) in addition the CB is trained in the use of high tech weapons. (dragons sacrifice skills for power)

The higher end clearly is better stat wise than the best standard combat borg.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This is a perennial argument
One side (that I support) is that you go into Detox as soon as you start... ergo you go Juicer -> apply Detox -> Apply Cold Blood

Another side is of the opinion that you should just keep them and that Cold Blood with 1000+ MDC are a good idea

A third side is of the opinion that the Cold Blood process would simply not work (the drugs in the system would mess up the delicate alchemical balances)

I might not always get along with Eli but this is an excellent post. It shows all three sides with out really crapping on the two that one doesn't agree with. Very much support that.

I happen to support option 3.

[Blue_Lion]

It could also be argued that the act of trying to avoid detox penalties, having your cake and eating it too, is what is munchkin. Not the end result.

I would have to agree with this. Because attempting to avoid penalties for something is a core staple of munchkin.

Not to mention if he never detox then logically he would still have all juicer bonuses becausse he never deroxed to loose them. The way I see it once a juicer you either have all the bonuses of a juicer or you have detoxed.
A cold blooded juicer is way to high high on the power curve, for most campains.

[Curbludgeon]

There are two factors which determine the potential disparity between FC Borgs and Juicer/Cold-Blooded: the CB's combat stats are rolled, and wealth. Insofar as prices are inconsistent, if one were to have two characters with identical starting budgets they'll come out closer than is argued above.

Assumptions:
1. The example below uses a human standard Juicer. The weakest possible Juicer/CB is a Coyle Hyperion with minimum rolls, which is far weaker than a FC Borg. The Titan Juicer is excluded for now. If one needs a rationale, consider that the metal bonded to the character's skeleton is arguably expelled once gaining regeneration.
3. The CB has 2 physical skills of choice, and can recall up to 4 from the Juicer OCC. Physical skills chosen below are Acrobatics, Boxing, and Fencing, which are also taken by the Borg.
4. All rolls are average; i.e. 1d6=3.5. Totals are rounded up at the end. Rolls which are multiplied by 10 are not rounded, even though it's an impossible result. Add 55 mdc to the CB total if you'll otherwise have a fit.
5. All bonuses of Juicer and Cold-Blooded conversion stack. I'm not considering things like Roll with Punch or Initiative at the moment.

Here's how each stat would be tabulated as a Juicer, with the Cold Blooded bonus in parentheses. Totals will follow
ps 5d6(min22)+3(+2d4+2)
pp 3d6+2d4+1(+1d4+1)
pe 5d6+1(+2)
spd 3d6+2d4x10(+2d6+6)
hp 1d4x10+1d6+1+PE
sdc 1d4x100+3d6+12
mdc 1d4x100+1d4x10+4d6+13+PE(+5d6+10)
Bonus attacks: +2(+1)

J/CB: PS 32 PP 20 PE 21 Spd 74 Mdc: 351 +3 attacks
Borg: PS 24arms/18legs PP 18 PE n/a Spd 132 mdc 410 (180+230)

The starting Borg is clearly outclassed by the average fully stacking Juicer/CB, primarily due to being 3 attacks down. This is where the Borg starts spending. 1,094,000 is enough to bump up to heavy armor, add a pair of tentacles and a pair of extra arms, max mdc in all locations, and max their stats. I'm still skimming around for costs of RUE basic style full conversion, instead of model specific costs, but would argue that Juicer+Cold Blooded conversion is roughly equivalent in cost to borg conversion+modifications after exchanging the borg's starting hovercycle. Any references to that end would be appreciated. The two characters are functionally equivalent in terms of weapons, and let's say the Juicer/CB has medium armor of 80 mdc.

J/CB: PS 32 PP 20 PE 21 Spd 74 mdc: 431 +3 attacks
Borg: PS 36/24 PP 26/24 PE n/a Spd 176(141) mdc 640 +2 attacks

The Cold Blooded could have a maximum mdc just over 500 before armor. The Cold Blooded could also roll better than average and take more physical skills, but the borg will almost always be faster and have more mdc. The JCB could pilot power armor (using some of the skills remembered as a juicer), but the value of such items can be spent by the borg on a vehicle of their own, or on a knock off variant of Hellbuster armor. The borg does lose out on repair costs, but the insanities and need for occasional burial of the CB counterbalance that somewhat.

If one starts adding things like auto dodge things change a bit, but on the face of things the combination really doesn't seem as bad as some are making it out to be. The combination is, admittedly, only for a high powered game, and if one were going to have it be a 6 week long, 4 million credit package available at Merctown then things should be trimmed.

[TechnoGothic]

The Juicer avoids physical detox keeps his juicers sdc/hp, etc...
Detox take 1d4 WEEKS.
The CB process KILLS the juicer. Attributes stay as they are at the time of death, then add CB bonuses/Penalties.
The biocomps are pushed out of the after death. They stop working after death btw.

Now that said. The CB process dies nothing vs tbe Mental & emotional effects. Roll vs insanity of course.

[dreicunan]

There are two factors which determine the potential disparity between FC Borgs and Juicer/Cold-Blooded: the CB's combat stats are rolled, and wealth. Insofar as prices are inconsistent, if one were to have two characters with identical starting budgets they'll come out closer than is argued above.

Assumptions:
1. The example below uses a human standard Juicer. The weakest possible Juicer/CB is a Coyle Hyperion with minimum rolls, which is far weaker than a FC Borg. The Titan Juicer is excluded for now. If one needs a rationale, consider that the metal bonded to the character's skeleton is arguably expelled once gaining regeneration.
3. The CB has 2 physical skills of choice, and can recall up to 4 from the Juicer OCC. Physical skills chosen below are Acrobatics, Boxing, and Fencing, which are also taken by the Borg.
4. All rolls are average; i.e. 1d6=3.5. Totals are rounded up at the end. Rolls which are multiplied by 10 are not rounded, even though it's an impossible result. Add 55 mdc to the CB total if you'll otherwise have a fit.
5. All bonuses of Juicer and Cold-Blooded conversion stack. I'm not considering things like Roll with Punch or Initiative at the moment.

Here's how each stat would be tabulated as a Juicer, with the Cold Blooded bonus in parentheses. Totals will follow
ps 5d6(min22)+3(+2d4+2)
pp 3d6+2d4+1(+1d4+1)
pe 5d6+1(+2)
spd 3d6+2d4x10(+2d6+6)
hp 1d4x10+1d6+1+PE
sdc 1d4x100+3d6+12
mdc 1d4x100+4d6+13+PE(+5d6+10)
Bonus attacks: +2(+1)

J/CB: PS 32 PP 20 PE 21 Spd 74 Mdc: 366 +3 attacks
Borg: PS 24arms/18legs PP 18 PE n/a Spd 132 mdc 410 (180+230)

The starting Borg is clearly outclassed by the average fully stacking Juicer/CB, primarily due to being 3 attacks down. This is where the Borg starts spending. 1,094,000 is enough to bump up to heavy armor, add a pair of tentacles and a pair of extra arms, max mdc in all locations, and max their stats. I'm still skimming around for costs of RUE basic style full conversion, instead of model specific costs, but would argue that Juicer+Cold Blooded conversion is roughly equivalent in cost to borg conversion+modifications after exchanging the borg's starting hovercycle. Any references to that end would be appreciated. The two characters are functionally equivalent in terms of weapons, and let's say the Juicer/CB has medium armor of 80 mdc.

J/CB: PS 32 PP 20 PE 21 Spd 74 mdc:446 +3 attacks
Borg: PS 36/24 PP 26/24 PE n/a Spd 176(141) mdc 640 +2 attacks

The Cold Blooded could have a maximum mdc just over 500 before armor. The Cold Blooded could also roll better than average and take more physical skills, but the borg will almost always be faster and have more mdc. The JCB could pilot power armor (using some of the skills remembered as a juicer), but the value of such items can be spent by the borg on a vehicle of their own, or on a knock off variant of Hellbuster armor. The borg does lose out on repair costs, but the insanities and need for occasional burial of the CB counterbalance that somewhat.

If one starts adding things like auto dodge things change a bit, but on the face of things the combination really doesn't seem as bad as some are making it out to be. The combination is, admittedly, only for a high powered game, and if one were going to have it be a 6 week long, 4 million credit package available at Merctown then things should be trimmed.

Yep. Amazing what happens you actually do the math.

[dreicunan]

If a juicer undergoes the process ...

It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.

I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.

You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.

Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.

The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.

And your making an apples to oranges comparison
The Cold Blood vs Borg in Heavy armor is disingenuous as it is a CB with no gear vs a Borg with Heavy Armor. The weakest possible juicer/CB has more MDC than your borg does
It also has more PS, Regenerates every round (four times FASTER than the dragon mind you), and can come back from anything but the total destruction of the head.

And if it was an even moderately potent Juicer it is likely to have better stats than a Borg can ever get. Ever.

And this is before the Cold Blood gets to put on any of its gear.

So no, the claim that "A combat borg is better than this so obviously it is not munchkin" is pretty laughably false.

What is lauguable is that you read "roughly comparable ... (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats)" and came up with that strawman to end your post. I never made the claim that a combat cyborg was better. I did say that a dragon hatchling was likely to out-class a Cold Blooded, because the hatchling is likely to have access to a whole bunch of tricks (metamorphosis, magic, psi) that a cold blooded likely won't.

So to further clarify my point, if becoming a Cold Blooded to avoid detox penalties is a munchkin thing to do (and it isn't), then so is becoming a combat cyborg (and it also isn't). They are both legitimate, in-universe ways that a Juicer who wants to live longer than he normally would without ending up a feeble shadow od his former self can do so.

[Axelmania]

Anyone think it's possible to Cold-Blooded an Amaki?

[Curbludgeon]

Excluding factors would be necessarily setting-based, since the requirements are left so open. Out of the ~2.4 million Amaki on Earth, how many have made it to the American Midwest and subsequently provided tissue/fluid samples antecedent to initial testing? If there's a known Juicer cocktail unique to Elves, most anything can be handwaved, and magic stuff is narratively easier than tech in that respect. There's never going to be a published NPC, so whether it's useful in a given group is an individual matter.

What are some other high sdc beings?

[HarleeKnight]

Excluding factors would be necessarily setting-based, since the requirements are left so open. Out of the ~2.4 million Amaki on Earth, how many have made it to the American Midwest and subsequently provided tissue/fluid samples antecedent to initial testing? If there's a known Juicer cocktail unique to Elves, most anything can be handwaved, and magic stuff is narratively easier than tech in that respect. There's never going to be a published NPC, so whether it's useful in a given group is an individual matter.

What are some other high sdc beings?

The Hunter Cat in SA1 has HP = PEx5 and SDC 4D6x100. To top it all off, the CB doesn't say that they lose racial abilities, only that they change OCCs. If Dog Boys are a race now and can pick most any OCC, a similar argument can be made for the Hunter Cat.
Though that would be an extreme munchkin character.

[dreicunan]

Anyone think it's possible to Cold-Blooded an Amaki?

It isn't a matter of opinion. Page 19 of Mercenary Adventures states, in reference to original race, "may be human or d-bee provided the character was an S.D.C./Hit Point being." Amaki are such a being. Therefore, they can become a cold-blooded.

[eliakon]

Anyone think it's possible to Cold-Blooded an Amaki?

The answer of course is "if your GM allows it"
That means if your GM is willing to allow the combination, and allows for the Amaki to be wandering around in North America and for the person to find the provider and everything else.

Put another way, there are no rules based limits preventing it per se. But it is such an improbable combination that your going to need an excelent back story to pull it off... one which will require either the blessing of the GM or will require performing the transformation in play.

What I like to point out to people is that just because it is possible to lay out every book in the system and cherry pick out the most optimal combination of races/skills/powers/classes/gear/what have you and make the 'perfect' character... doesnt mean that such a character can actually be made. Just because an omnicent person with an all knowing understanding of the entire megaverse can put together the needed shopping list doesnt mean that it is actually possible for it to be done in practice by the non-omnicent.
Its part of that whole 'metagaming' thing really.

[Curbludgeon]

I don't believe claims based on omniscience are necessary, or even useful. Some combinations are less likely than others within the setting, of course, and people are going to dive into a dumpster even when it's on fire, but some combinations are straightforward. Regardless of one's thoughts on the propriety of juicer+cold blooded, both are offered in MercTown. are likely available in Fort Reid, and are less than two hours' flight apart from multiple midwestern cities. If in a given game it's not seen as a big deal, having a series of procedures would be less a matter of ferreting out a secret than one of walking down the block. To have strongly held opinions on balance within a game whose creator has derided the entire concept is just silly.

[Blue_Lion]

If a juicer undergoes the process ...

It kills him. Or renders him a vegetable, incapable of any action or communication. The drugs and potion have a terrible reaction when mixed. Roll up a new character and don't try to munchkin it up this time.

I've seen too much bulldrek from munchkins and power gamers. I won't tolerate it any more when I GM. No juicer/cold blooded, no vampire ninja cyborg dragons, no juicer/anything from Phase World, etc. Someone tries to sit at my table with some kind of whackadoodle character like that, and they weren't told "Create the most insanely powerful and/or wacky character you can think of for a humorous one-shot", I know instantly that they're not someone I want to game with. In any system. Ever.

You clearly haven't bothered actually doing the math on this character. It is no way a munchkin thing. The cold blooded isn't also a Juicer. It's just a former juicer who is now a cold blooded. The question is what stats should be used to determine the cold blooded stats. No one is claiming that the character would keep things like autododge.

Excepting the Titan Juicer and the large amount of MDC they'd end up with, even an ex-juicer cold blooded is likely to be roughly comparable to a full conversion borg in heavy armor (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats) and likely to be out-classed by a dragon hatchling.

The Cold Blooded process is basically the same way to avoid detox penalties for an ex-juicer as becoming a full conversion borg, except through magic instead of through technology.

And your making an apples to oranges comparison
The Cold Blood vs Borg in Heavy armor is disingenuous as it is a CB with no gear vs a Borg with Heavy Armor. The weakest possible juicer/CB has more MDC than your borg does
It also has more PS, Regenerates every round (four times FASTER than the dragon mind you), and can come back from anything but the total destruction of the head.

And if it was an even moderately potent Juicer it is likely to have better stats than a Borg can ever get. Ever.

And this is before the Cold Blood gets to put on any of its gear.

So no, the claim that "A combat borg is better than this so obviously it is not munchkin" is pretty laughably false.

What is lauguable is that you read "roughly comparable ... (and quite possibly inferior in terms of stats)" and came up with that strawman to end your post. I never made the claim that a combat cyborg was better. I did say that a dragon hatchling was likely to out-class a Cold Blooded, because the hatchling is likely to have access to a whole bunch of tricks (metamorphosis, magic, psi) that a cold blooded likely won't.

So to further clarify my point, if becoming a Cold Blooded to avoid detox penalties is a munchkin thing to do (and it isn't), then so is becoming a combat cyborg (and it also isn't). They are both legitimate, in-universe ways that a Juicer who wants to live longer than he normally would without ending up a feeble shadow od his former self can do so.

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

[dreicunan]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

[Blue_Lion]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.

Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.

The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.


So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)

So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)

[eliakon]

I don't believe claims based on omniscience are necessary, or even useful. Some combinations are less likely than others within the setting, of course, and people are going to dive into a dumpster even when it's on fire, but some combinations are straightforward. Regardless of one's thoughts on the propriety of juicer+cold blooded, both are offered in MercTown. are likely available in Fort Reid, and are less than two hours' flight apart from multiple midwestern cities. If in a given game it's not seen as a big deal, having a series of procedures would be less a matter of ferreting out a secret than one of walking down the block. To have strongly held opinions on balance within a game whose creator has derided the entire concept is just silly.

three rather significant problems with your remarks there
1) you seem to be confused about the "omniscience" bit. It had absolutely nothing to do with juicers at all. Since it was a reply to the Amaki+Cold Blood combo which is a good example of third person omniscient construction as it requires the use of highly obscure knowledge, or in this case the use of a minor race from another continent which then for some reason takes up a rather obscure form of enhancement so as to allow for a character with a thousand or so MDC...

2) you are making the assumption that simply because juicers and cold blood exist that they must be compatible. They certainly can be compatible in your game if you wish it or not. But there is absolutely nothing in the canon that requires that they be compatible. Just some vague material on juicers and cold blood that may or may not go one way or the other depending on how you choose to interpret different parts.

3) the argument "Game balance is silly" is actually bunk. Kevin has stated quite clearly that his views of game balance are that balance is different, not that "anything goes". That argument is basically the refuge of the muchkin who is trying to claim that their character can't possibly break the game because there is no such thing as balance. Which is a flatly false. Kevin makes it quite clear that his view of balance is that characters are each different. That characters are not all 'equal' not that there is no need for any sort of balance or that a player should be allowed to be as powerful as they want regardless of what anyone else likes.
This is why the rules exist and its not some sort of power trip where the players just dictate how they win.
As a result he chooses to balance things in different ways. This isn't D20 where everyone has the same levels and all classes are expected to be interchangeable. But they are balanced in their own ways.


Which brings us back to the fact that regardless of if the process could even work or not from a rules stand point, the far more important question is if having characters with the resulting power running around would be advantageous or detrimental to a given game. If they are advantageous to that game then they are good and balanced. if they are detrimental to that game... then they are bad and broken. It really is that simple. End of story.

[Curbludgeon]

I am in no way confused, and do not take kindly to attempts at placing words in my mouth. While you may have been referring specifically to Amaki+Cold Blooded, I was speaking more generally to characters subject to multiple forms of enhancement, such as the thread's topic. Nor have I once said that J+CB must be compatible. I have said that I don't have a problem with it, save perhaps with Titan Juicers, I have said that a comparison to a full conversion borg shows that the combination need not be as problematic as some claim, and that propinquity affords an in-setting rationale for performing the procedures sequentially.

Regarding game balance: It's a trivial matter to have wildly disparate characters, and for all some people talk about playing games with Vagabonds and Saloon Bums, kitchen sink settings published sporadically with rules information strewn throughout are almost tailor-made for dumpster diving. To discuss fun finds in that vein is natural. With editing being what it is, ambiguities abound, and arguments can be made for all sorts of stuff that one might not want in a given game. If the ruleset provides limited to no recourse, one must rely on appeals to verisimilitude. That is no longer a discussion of balance, it is one of propriety, and is necessarily subjective. As a personal preference, I tend to get along more readily with handwavers than footstompers or chestbeaters, and if there's going to be a power trip at the table I'd much rather it be had by a character than a GM. One can always add more skelebots.

[dreicunan]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.

Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.

The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.


So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)

So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)

Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).

We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.

[eliakon]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.

Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.

The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.


So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)

So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)

Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).

We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.

No.
Just no
Either you keep your OCC abilities and bonuses or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose from the list on what abilities you lose and which ones you keep. Its an all or nothing sort of thing.
Thus either they lose their OCC abilities and Bonuses or they keep them.
The stats, SDC, HP and the rest are OCC bonuses.
So either they lose them like all the other OCC bonuses... or they are, indeed, being allowed to selectively keep OCC bonuses beyond those that are listed as being preserved.
It really is that simple people
Either you can keep some of your Juicer OCC abilities and Bonuses even after you stop being a Juicer and can transfer those abilities and bonuses to being a cold-blooded. Or you can't. I am of the opinion that since you can not have 2 OCCs at the same time. That if you give up a class and abandon it completely then you give up all the bonuses from it. You can't just say "Well I want to play this RCC here, but I want to tack on this set of OCC abilities from some other OCC because I want moar powah" that's just not how it works.

And no the argument that "the muscle mass is there" holds no water. The Cold-Blooded one gets their strength and durability from their supernatural constitution and not muscle mass. So it doesnt matter how much mass there is or is not.

[eliakon]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.

Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.

The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.


So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)

So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)

Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).

We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.

No.
Just no
Either you keep your OCC abilities and bonuses or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose from the list on what abilities you lose and which ones you keep. Its an all or nothing sort of thing.
Thus either they lose their OCC abilities and Bonuses or they keep them.
The stats, SDC, HP and the rest are OCC bonuses.
So either they lose them like all the other OCC bonuses... or they are, indeed, being allowed to selectively keep OCC bonuses beyond those that are listed as being preserved.
It really is that simple people
Either you can keep some of your Juicer OCC abilities and Bonuses even after you stop being a Juicer and can transfer those abilities and bonuses to being a cold-blooded. Or you can't. I am of the opinion that since you can not have 2 OCCs at the same time. That if you give up a class and abandon it completely then you give up all the bonuses from it. You can't just say "Well I want to play this RCC here, but I want to tack on this set of OCC abilities from some other OCC because I want moar powah" that's just not how it works.

And no the argument that "the muscle mass is there" holds no water. The Cold-Blooded one gets their strength and durability from their supernatural constitution and not muscle mass. So it doesnt matter how much mass there is or is not.

[Blue_Lion]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.

Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.

The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.


So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)

So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)

Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).

We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.

Option C is not a new option it just failed to address the juicer state, if the juicer did not remove the bio-comp he would still be a juicer with all abilties and bonuses of being a juicer, if the bio comp was removed by the rules he gets full detox penalty.(because taking the ritual after removing the bio-comp would require that you choose cold blooded for step 2 that triggers step 3.)

With most OCC when you stop being that OCC you keep all the bonuses but they are frozen at the point you switch class. (PB does have rules for changing classes.) However the juicer detox rules are a special case that removes all bonuses and applies penalties to the charter. If you do not use the detox rules as written the juicer would have all bonuses of being a juicer frozen at the point he stopped being a juicer by the default reclass rules.

Basically as eliakon said if some one at one time was a juicer he is either still a juicer or must detox with all that entales. It is binary either you removed the bio-monitor and get detox or you have all juicer bonuses. you do not get to pick and choose what you keep by the way the rules are written. Nothing in the write up of cold blooded says it is immune to any rules for changing classes.

[dreicunan]

The cold-blodded to avoid detox is munchkin because it is an attempt to avoid a penalty of detox and get bonuses.(That is the very spirt of munckin.)
A juicer detoxing and going FCB is not because he took the side affects then took a new class to gain new advantages. The two are not the same, or even equal.
(Correct me if I am wrong but does the cold blooded not get bio-regen and SN PS, those are pretty big advantages on top of being a juicer because you did not detox. By the way the rules are written you either have detoxed or you have not, there is no staging of penalties.)

Just Robotic PS. Also, no longer a juicer, so stop rolling out that strawman. The point of contention has been about what stats to use when determining Cold Blooded stats.

Until a juicer detoxs he is still a juicer by the rules. Not a straw man. By the rules he either has all the powers of the juicer or has detoxed. There is no way to pick and choose what you keep by the rules of juicers.

Pointing out the rules is not a straw man, it is the rules ignoring in convent rules to avoid a penalty is munchkin. Allowing a ex-jucier to keep any of the bonuses of being a juicer while increasing his power level is munchkin.

The way page 80 of RUE is written the pain of detox(not the detox itself) last 1d4 weeks during which the charter has a fever, and can not take any combat actions. However the mechanical steps for detox have no time frame and as written would apply to the cold-blooded.
step 1 remove the bio-comp.
step 2 choose OCC-cold-blooded
step 3 rebuild the charter with penalties.


So the steps as written do not allow a juicer to detox and keep any bonuses. The only way to avoid the penalites is to not detox, meaning he would still be a juicer.(the rules as written for detox actually stop this idea from working.)

So let me ask you this is the juicer A-still a juicer (full benifits) or B did he choose to detox and get the full penalities? (The way the juicer detox rules are written thosse are the only two choices by RAW.)

Option C: the juicer is killed during the cold-blooded ritual just like anyone else and comes back as a cold-blooded. Juicers aren't immune to magic, bleeding, or death whole the biocomp is functioning. So long as they are an SDC/HP being, they are eligible for the ritual. The magic does its magic, and you have an ex-juicer cold-blooded whose body was not ravaged by detox before becoming a cold-blooded. The biocomp, sensors, IRMSS and any other cybernetics get expelled from his body (see Mercenary Adventures, p. 21).

We don't have a cold-blooded juicer, we have a former Juicer turned cold-blooded. OCC abilities and bonuses would be gone, but since muscle mass doesn't magically disappear the second you stop using drugs which promote their growth that flesh is still around to be changed by the ritual, and thus the argument for keeping some or all of the physical stat bonuses.

No.
Just no
Either you keep your OCC abilities and bonuses or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose from the list on what abilities you lose and which ones you keep. Its an all or nothing sort of thing.
Thus either they lose their OCC abilities and Bonuses or they keep them.
The stats, SDC, HP and the rest are OCC bonuses.
So either they lose them like all the other OCC bonuses... or they are, indeed, being allowed to selectively keep OCC bonuses beyond those that are listed as being preserved.
It really is that simple people
Either you can keep some of your Juicer OCC abilities and Bonuses even after you stop being a Juicer and can transfer those abilities and bonuses to being a cold-blooded. Or you can't. I am of the opinion that since you can not have 2 OCCs at the same time. That if you give up a class and abandon it completely then you give up all the bonuses from it. You can't just say "Well I want to play this RCC here, but I want to tack on this set of OCC abilities from some other OCC because I want moar powah" that's just not how it works.

And no the argument that "the muscle mass is there" holds no water. The Cold-Blooded one gets their strength and durability from their supernatural constitution and not muscle mass. So it doesnt matter how much mass there is or is not.

Have you bothered to read the Cold-Blooded entry and how stats are determined for an existing character? It's PS is determined by taking the PS score of the character before the transformation and then adding a bonus. It's MDC is determined by taking the character's HP and SDC, then adding a bonus. So a 98 lb weakling is going to have different stats after conversion than the Mr Universe candidate. Ergo, my "the muscle mass is there" argument is just a restating of what the canon text obviously is showing us. The existing flesh of the character at the time of the ritual most definitely matters in the determination of the result.

As to your OCC switch based argument, the only rules Palladium has given us for switching OCCs don't require you to lower your stats if your previous OCC gave you a boost. Go look at the rules in High Seas again if you need a refresher. There is no general rule eliminating bonuses from a previous OCC.

[eliakon]

No.
Just no
Either you keep your OCC abilities and bonuses or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose from the list on what abilities you lose and which ones you keep. Its an all or nothing sort of thing.
Thus either they lose their OCC abilities and Bonuses or they keep them.
The stats, SDC, HP and the rest are OCC bonuses.
So either they lose them like all the other OCC bonuses... or they are, indeed, being allowed to selectively keep OCC bonuses beyond those that are listed as being preserved.
It really is that simple people
Either you can keep some of your Juicer OCC abilities and Bonuses even after you stop being a Juicer and can transfer those abilities and bonuses to being a cold-blooded. Or you can't. I am of the opinion that since you can not have 2 OCCs at the same time. That if you give up a class and abandon it completely then you give up all the bonuses from it. You can't just say "Well I want to play this RCC here, but I want to tack on this set of OCC abilities from some other OCC because I want moar powah" that's just not how it works.

And no the argument that "the muscle mass is there" holds no water. The Cold-Blooded one gets their strength and durability from their supernatural constitution and not muscle mass. So it doesnt matter how much mass there is or is not.

Have you bothered to read the Cold-Blooded entry and how stats are determined for an existing character? It's PS is determined by taking the PS score of the character before the transformation and then adding a bonus. It's MDC is determined by taking the character's HP and SDC, then adding a bonus. So a 98 lb weakling is going to have different stats after conversion than the Mr Universe candidate. Ergo, my "the muscle mass is there" argument is just a restating of what the canon text obviously is showing us. The existing flesh of the character at the time of the ritual most definitely matters in the determination of the result.

You are confusing the real world with Palladium there.
In Palladium there is no correlation between weight/size and strength. That is why you can have a 5'2" woman that weighs 110 pounds with a PS of 30, and a 6'10" man with six pack abs that has a PS of 12.
Juicer muscles strength is a function of drugs pure and simple. This is why you can take drugs to get super strong, and get weak as soon as you stop taking them. Its also why all the other combat drugs work the way they do.
The only reason that a person will have different stats on conversion is what their numbers on the sheet say. The 98 pound person may have any PS from 1 to 30+
Unless you can cite some rule that I am unaware of that actually describes any such changes... especially in light of the fact that we are explicitly given random height weight charts for rolling on, which means that under canon your height and weight are separate from your PS which is totally separate from your physical looks which is totally separate from your motor dexterity which is totally separate from your ability to walk/run which is totally separate from overall health. This is why you roll PS, PP, PE, PB, Spd, Height, and Weight all separately... unlike the real world where that 98lb weakling and Mr. Universe live.

As to your OCC switch based argument, the only rules Palladium has given us for switching OCCs don't require you to lower your stats if your previous OCC gave you a boost. Go look at the rules in High Seas again if you need a refresher. There is no general rule eliminating bonuses from a previous OCC.

They do if the bonus only exists as a part of the OCC.
No really.
The bonuses are part of the Juicer OCC. You are no longer a Juicer. Thus you are not keeping the Juicer OCC bonuses. That is pretty explicit in the Juicer write up...that as soon as you stop being a juicer you lose your juicer OCC bonuses. As such yes, class specific features over ride a general rule.
BUT since the Cold Blood isnt a class change but is nistead is a full on RCC change...well it doesn't even matter. You are not a Juicer(8)/Cold Blood(1) for instance. You are just a Cold Blood (1)...which is why you no longer get to keep all your perks of being a Juicer (8)
There is no "class change" to it.
Now sure, you can house rule it how ever you want... but the way it is written is the way it is written... and that way says nothing what so ever about class changing over and instead about remaking.