eliakon wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:eliakon wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:<Snip>
In that the Coalition Grunt does not receive Math: Basic, but does get Sensory Equipment, I struggle to think of a model by which to express approximate armor status that is more efficient than the above.
I'll just say something that I've said before, but that for some reason always seems to boggle the heck out of a lot of people:
Math: Basic allows people to count, but that doesn't mean that the only people who can count are people with that skill.
And yet, only people with literacy can read...
I don't believe the books state that, but if they do, show me the quote.
From what I remember the last time I went 12 rounds on this issue:
Literacy allows you to read and write, but there are no rules anywhere that state that the Literacy skill is the only way to be able to read or write anything at all, ever, under any circumstances.
Sure, you can house rule semi-literacy if you want sure.
But there is zero canon support for the claim that illiterate people can read. Which is why the CS has to provide machines to read for their people instead of just saying that "grunts can learn simple words and phrases associated with their jobs" or the like.
Oh, and for the record. When the book says "Can
not read" that is pretty cut and dried to me. That does not say "Can only read a little" or "Semi literate" it says "if you do not take this skill you can not read, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred credits."
Killer Cyborg wrote:eliakon wrote:You can count to ten, maybe even do simple basic addition and subtraction. So... maybe first or second grade math. Maybe.
I'd say that without Basic Math, the kind of math you can do is dependent entirely on why you know any math at all.
If you work a cash register, and the boss beats you when the draw is off, and you've had this job for years, then it's perfectly reasonable for you to be able to add and subtract the kind of numbers you typically deal with quite well.
Subtraction and multiplication would be tougher, rarer, and again only in the context of your experience.
Basically, Mathematics (Basic) includes:
-Counting
-Addition
-Subtraction
-Multiplication,
-Division
-Fractions
Which technically leaves room for a person to technically know 5 out of 6 of those, and still not have that skill.
As a GM, I'd need reasonable explanation for why a character knows any of it at all, and the more stuff the player wanted their character to know, the better that explanation would have to be.
BUT in the context of keeping track of armor damage, the only thing that a character would need to know is Counting, and/or percentages (which isn't really covered by this skill).
IF as a GM I ruled that the canon on-board computer in armor that tracks damage would give characters a specific number to deal with, then pretty much any military class, or any class trained in armor use, would be able to read those numbers and get the gist.
Knowing "My armor is down to 50%" doesn't require a lot of math, even on the Basic Math level, and neither does "I only have 43 MDC out of 80 MDC.
We're really talking about the computer doing the math in that case, and the Grunt or whatever just getting the gist of the numbers.
But you can't do percents, or anything fancier with out math skill. Certainly not read a mathimatical readout.
Which sort of rules out a readout showing 100MDC and lowering down as you take hits...
Unless of course there is a rule somewhere that I overlooked that says that you can count to 100+ and do, and understand, addition and subtraction with out math skill...
There isn't a rule that specifies it, no. Just not a rule that rules it out.
And unless you want your game world to be one where a character cannot recognize any numbers at all, then they take the Math: Basic skill and instantly jump from complete non-understanding to knowing the entire list of stuff above, then the logical result is that--just like in the real world--characters slowly accumulate knowledge, and not only CAN learn parts of skills before they learn the entire skill, but also NECESSARILY do things that way.
Learning to Count is a necessary requirement for the Mathematics (Basic) skill, not a sufficient one.
Learning your ABCs and a few common words is a necessary requirement for Literacy, not a sufficient one.
And so forth.
So your contention is that even though the skill states the skill provides a range of abilities... people actually have these abilities with out having the skill just 'because' and that even though there is no in game support for this, what so ever, that since it seems 'logical' that it must be true,
even though it goes against the published material.
Close, but no cigar.
My contention is that
just because a skill provides something, that does not mean that the skill is the only way to obtain that something.
Boxing, for example, provides +1 attack per melee, but
that does not mean that Boxing is the ONLY way to get +1 attack per melee.
First Aid provides knowledge on how to bandage wounds, but
that does not mean that the First Aid skill is the ONLY way to learn how to bandage wounds.
The Animal Husbandry skill provides knowledge on the feeding of animals, but
that does not mean that the Animal Husbandry skill is the ONLY way that anybody can know how to feed an animal.
Are you with me so far...?
And instead of saying stuff like "there is no in game support for this,"
ask for my support if you can't figure it out.
I'm generally happy to clue people in as to my sources and logic.
In this case, flip over to RUE 323 and read the skill Appraise Goods. Notice that it includes the ability to know "how much he can get by pawning the item, as well as what he can sell it for wholesale."
Note that Mathematics: Basic is NOT a prerequisite for this skill.
In your view, apparently this means that the authors expect a character who cannot at all add, subtract, or even COUNT, to be able to appraise goods for their resale value.
Does that really make sense to you?
There are countless skills like this, skills that necessarily involve some degree of addition, subtraction, or counting, but that don't require Mathematics: Basic as a requirement.
Barter, a skill specifically for haggling about numbers, DOES NOT REQUIRE Mathematics: Basic.
Neither does Cryptography, Intelligence (which expects you to assess the number of enemies), Gambling, Computer Operation, Computer Programming, Carpentry, Land Navigation, and so forth.
The books never once say that Skills are the ONLY way for a character to know how to do things.
The books never once say that if a skill provides an ability or knowledge, that everybody without that skill necessarily lacks that ability.
The books DO repeatedly and consistently indicate that knowledges and abilities that skills provide can be known without the skills.
The books support my view.
They do NOT support the view that everybody who lacks Mathematics: Basic cannot count, or that everybody without the Animal Husbandry skill lacks the ability to feed an animal.
Even though the same logic would say that people can be semi-literate with out literacy and that thus you don't need the skill to read basic words and phrases...
Most definitely.
People who are only partially literate would necessarily exist in the game universe, from both a simulationist and a rules-based perspective.
or that you should be able to reload a pistol with out the skill since its 'obvious' (even though the rules say otherwise)
Ah, but in this case, the rules DO say otherwise, so no, characters cannot reload a pistol.
It's a stupid rule, but it IS a rule.
IF you can find any rules saying that nobody who lacks Mathematics: Basic can count to ten, then by all means let me know. Until then, it doesn't go against the rules for somebody who lacks the skill to be able to do that (though not everybody can, of course).
A claim that even though a person does not have a skill, they should be allowed the use of that skill
That's a strawman.
The actual claim is that
even though a person does not have a skill, they might still be allowed to do some things that the skill provides.
A character without Boxing or HTH Combat can still try to punch.
A character without Identify Plants & Fruit can still possibly know a banana from an apple.
A character without the Barter skill can still potentially attempt to haggle.
A person without the Herding Cattle skill can still potentially feed a cow some hay.
A person without the Roping skill can still potentially tie some kind of knot.
A person without the Cook skill can still select a meal.
A person without the Houskeeping skill can still have some level of knowledge of soap.
A person without the Wardrobe & Grooming skill can still have some level of knowledge of clothing, perfume, etc.
And yes, a person without the Literacy skill can still have
some level of knowledge of reading and/or writing.
A person without Mathematics: Basic can still have some ability to count, add, subtract, etc.
If not, then the game simply wouldn't be playable.