Non CS in possession of CS weapons/gear

[jburkett]

Hello, Is there a resource/book that explains how the CS view mercs or adventurers in possession of CS weapons and gear? Will they always attempt to confiscate any of this gear when discovered or is there a certain percentage of, say, decommissioned or surplus gear that is available for purchase by merc companies, etc? Does the CS ever sell off any of its old weapons/gear or can it only be purchased through the Black Market or other outfits selling contraband? This would be for the post war on Tolkeen timeline. Thanks!

[lather]

I remember reading something about it but I don't remember. If memory serves, the CS doesn't sweat the small stuff and the black market costs on the equipment tends to give the rarity of the equipment. I'd expect them to keep tabs on the high high tech stuff at least.

[Killer Cyborg]

Try SB1 and CWC. Those books have info on CS customs, laws, and security.
CWC is probably the best bet.

[Shorty Lickens]

Check the books.

In our group we usually say the CS officials do not care about repainted hand guns and body armor, but will generally try to confiscate explosives, power armor, and vehicles. Also military RADAR and radios.

[Shark_Force]

i doubt they ever react favourably; they don't sell their gear after all, which means the gear was originally obtained by either stealing it or looting fallen CS troops. and while it is certainly possible (i might even say probable) that most of the CS gear in use is being used by people other than those that originally got the gear, they're still not going to like the fact that you have it.

as for how they react, i expect that depends on a variety of things; how fanatical the specific group are, how dangerous the people that have the gear are compared to the CS forces available, how close they are to reinforcements, whether or not they need something that you have that can't be stolen, etc. but again, i would never expect a *favourable* reaction. even a corrupt CS soldier who is in some way helping to steal the gear will likely react unfavourably, if only to look like they care and/or to look good so they can perhaps some day get promoted (and make even more money on the side in their new position). but unless the CS group has a fairly significant advantage, i wouldn't expect them to immediately attack you. discreetly get a picture of you to hand off to CS intelligence, get you banned from entering CS territory (or at least the actual cities), perhaps try to get some sort of tracer on you so that they can strike at a more convenient time (possibly just to confiscate the gear, possibly to attempt to imprison or kill you), refuse to hire you to do work for them, sure, but not an immediate frontal assault... probably.

[Shorty Lickens]

i doubt they ever react favourably; they don't sell their gear after all, which means the gear was originally obtained by either stealing it or looting fallen CS troops. and while it is certainly possible (i might even say probable) that most of the CS gear in use is being used by people other than those that originally got the gear, they're still not going to like the fact that you have it.

as for how they react, i expect that depends on a variety of things; how fanatical the specific group are, how dangerous the people that have the gear are compared to the CS forces available, how close they are to reinforcements, whether or not they need something that you have that can't be stolen, etc. but again, i would never expect a *favourable* reaction. even a corrupt CS soldier who is in some way helping to steal the gear will likely react unfavourably, if only to look like they care and/or to look good so they can perhaps some day get promoted (and make even more money on the side in their new position). but unless the CS group has a fairly significant advantage, i wouldn't expect them to immediately attack you. discreetly get a picture of you to hand off to CS intelligence, get you banned from entering CS territory (or at least the actual cities), perhaps try to get some sort of tracer on you so that they can strike at a more convenient time (possibly just to confiscate the gear, possibly to attempt to imprison or kill you), refuse to hire you to do work for them, sure, but not an immediate frontal assault... probably.

You have to remember that after the war the CS is kind of disorganized and with lots of people looting battlefields all the time, they really cant expend too much time and energy chasing down everyone with a beat up pulse rifle.

Actually, thats a good point......


HEY OP!!

Is this before or after the war?

[jburkett]

i doubt they ever react favourably; they don't sell their gear after all, which means the gear was originally obtained by either stealing it or looting fallen CS troops. and while it is certainly possible (i might even say probable) that most of the CS gear in use is being used by people other than those that originally got the gear, they're still not going to like the fact that you have it.

as for how they react, i expect that depends on a variety of things; how fanatical the specific group are, how dangerous the people that have the gear are compared to the CS forces available, how close they are to reinforcements, whether or not they need something that you have that can't be stolen, etc. but again, i would never expect a *favourable* reaction. even a corrupt CS soldier who is in some way helping to steal the gear will likely react unfavourably, if only to look like they care and/or to look good so they can perhaps some day get promoted (and make even more money on the side in their new position). but unless the CS group has a fairly significant advantage, i wouldn't expect them to immediately attack you. discreetly get a picture of you to hand off to CS intelligence, get you banned from entering CS territory (or at least the actual cities), perhaps try to get some sort of tracer on you so that they can strike at a more convenient time (possibly just to confiscate the gear, possibly to attempt to imprison or kill you), refuse to hire you to do work for them, sure, but not an immediate frontal assault... probably.

You have to remember that after the war the CS is kind of disorganized and with lots of people looting battlefields all the time, they really cant expend too much time and energy chasing down everyone with a beat up pulse rifle.

Actually, thats a good point......


HEY OP!!

Is this before or after the war?

This is after the war (September 109 PA). So, yes, lots of looted, salvaged, pillaged CS gear would be floating around.

[eliakon]

One big issue will be the same one that affects the real world US Military and US Military gear
Namely "who has what where"
Both the US and the CS are big supporters of allied forces, and hand out tons of gear. This does many things, one of which is that it makes those allies dependant on the CS for support... since the CS is the only provider of the spare parts and such they will need.

Thus if the gear looks to be the 'second tier' stuff that is handed out it will not raise an eyebrow if a mercenary has some... after all they are very likely to have gotten it officially... or be able to claim that they did and back it up.
But you show up with something snazzy or first teir and they are going to assume you stole it and come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Thus simple hand weapons, old style body armor, old style PAs, old style light combat vehicles, generic munitions, light combat helicopters, transports, support gear, medical supplies, explosives, e-clips, ect are going to be pretty common in the mercenary world due to the way that the system works out... and frankly the CS doesn't care since it makes their job easier in many ways as they can monitor support of the gear and it makes incorporating theses mercenaries in operations easier.

Specialized weapons, new style armor, robot vehicles, artificial intelligences (such as skelbots), new style power armor, heavy combat vehicles, artillery, fighter jets, advanced aircraft, warships, cruise missiles, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons and the like... not so much, as these are not shared and thus can only be acquired by theft of as spoils of war... and thus simply having them is likely to be seen as basically a tacit act of war and dealt with accordingly.

[Shark_Force]

You have to remember that after the war the CS is kind of disorganized and with lots of people looting battlefields all the time, they really cant expend too much time and energy chasing down everyone with a beat up pulse rifle.

Actually, thats a good point......


HEY OP!!

Is this before or after the war?

i didn't say they'd chase down everyone. i said they might. largely depending on a number of factors.

One big issue will be the same one that affects the real world US Military and US Military gear
Namely "who has what where"
Both the US and the CS are big supporters of allied forces, and hand out tons of gear. This does many things, one of which is that it makes those allies dependant on the CS for support... since the CS is the only provider of the spare parts and such they will need.

Thus if the gear looks to be the 'second tier' stuff that is handed out it will not raise an eyebrow if a mercenary has some... after all they are very likely to have gotten it officially... or be able to claim that they did and back it up.
But you show up with something snazzy or first teir and they are going to assume you stole it and come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Thus simple hand weapons, old style body armor, old style PAs, old style light combat vehicles, generic munitions, light combat helicopters, transports, support gear, medical supplies, explosives, e-clips, ect are going to be pretty common in the mercenary world due to the way that the system works out... and frankly the CS doesn't care since it makes their job easier in many ways as they can monitor support of the gear and it makes incorporating theses mercenaries in operations easier.

Specialized weapons, new style armor, robot vehicles, artificial intelligences (such as skelbots), new style power armor, heavy combat vehicles, artillery, fighter jets, advanced aircraft, warships, cruise missiles, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons and the like... not so much, as these are not shared and thus can only be acquired by theft of as spoils of war... and thus simply having them is likely to be seen as basically a tacit act of war and dealt with accordingly.

the problem with this assumption that the CS hands out their older gear is that many of their older weapons arestill rare on the black market, none of their gear with the exception of vibro-blades (which everyone makes copies of) even *have* a cost that isn't a black market cost, even up as far as RUE, and RUE even goes out of its way to add that the old style body armour is still not commonly available in spite of the new models being rolled out.

that simply does not match with the idea that the CS is handing out their older stuff like it's halloween candy, unless it comes attached to CS soldiers (which they probably prefer, nothing like having a sizeable armed force in someone else's territory to erode their sovereignty in your favour). if they are handing out lower quality tech, it is more likely in the form of generic equipment (like the L-20) that is made by many manufacturers, or given recent world books specifically NG stuff, because available evidence shows that the equipment is not widely available, and indeed not available at all except from criminal organizations.

so again, i'm gonna have to stick with what the evidence shows: they won't react favourably, but they're not necessarily going to do anything about it immediately either. it won't make you any friends in the CS, but it probably won't lead to *immediate* hostilities in many cases. but ultimately, if you have CS gear, it was probably stolen from the CS supply chain (most likely by the black market, and then sold to you) or looted from CS troops (again, not necessarily by you, but you're still carrying ill-gotten gains that the CS likely considers to be their property, even if they can't always enforce that).

[Killer Cyborg]

Hello, Is there a resource/book that explains how the CS view mercs or adventurers in possession of CS weapons and gear?

RUE 239
...and anyone encountered by the CS authorities and patrols using any illegal armaments such as a SAMAS, Naruni Enterprises alien weaponry, and obvious magic items, even outside CS held territories, are attacked, the technology captured or destroyed, and the user interrogated and set free with a warning. Those who resist are destroyed.

Now, the exact context of this is the CS being unhappy with Bandito Arms manufacturing versions of the SAMAS, but the implication is that all forms of SAMAS are illegal for non-CS personnel, in the eyes of the CS.

Other than that... I can't find much, and I've spent some time looking this morning. I'd swear that I remember some passage(s) in some book that discuss the legality/illegality of non-CS personnel owning CS weapons, but I can't find it.
Maybe it's not even there.
Or maybe I'm not looking in the right spot.

CWC 220-221 has a Hook, Line, and Sinker adventure that involves CS weaponry being specifically stolen from the CS, and one of the Sinkers is that the PCs are probably caught on camera during the attack/looting. In that context is this sentence:
Any character in the possession of CS equipment will be suspected of complicity and attacked

That's specifically complicity in an attack on a CS base, and a specific incident, NOT a note that everybody everywhere who has CS gear will be attacked.
What I glean from this passage's (and other passages') lack of any indication that having CS gear is in its own right illegal, it may very well NOT be, no more than any other kind of Mega-Damage gear.
But I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that Palladium assumed it would be SO obvious that CS gear is highly illegal that they never bothered to mention it.

(As an IMO interesting side note that is unrelated to this particular conversation, the loot includes "a facility for recharging E-Clips." I'll try to remember that for the next "how easy is it to recharge an e-clip" conversation)

Anyway, VK 63 describes a human street gang called "The Hammer," who is secretly supported by the CS.
They are well-equipped with energy weapons, 40% of which are Coalition weapons, and their body armor is listed as "The Coalition, Bushman, and Explorer."
The leader of the gang is a supposedly retired CS Military Specialist, and the gang has at least 10 members who are ex-Coalition soldiers.
While it could be assumed that they're all secretly still in the CS, and/or that only the CS members are allowed to use the CS gear, the much more likely scenario is that the Coalition (like modern militaries) is perfectly willing to trade, sell, or give their military weapons to factions that they feel serve their interests.
While it's possible that the CS would do this, and still have a law banning all non-CS military personnel from owning/carrying CS arms/armor, it makes it seem a lot less likely to me.

VKr p. 123 has updated information on the gang:
183 members
6 SAMAS
50% of their energy weapons are CS.

The hardest thing I've found in favor of CS weapons being illegal is RAG 88:
The Black Market has a strong presence in the community, quietly running money-changing and money-laundering operations, body chop-shops, weapon dealerships, smuggling rings (CS weapons, magic items, ancient artifacts, books, and similar contraband outlawed by the CS)...

The indication there is that CS weapons are on the same level of illegality as magic items, ancient artifacts, and (unsanctioned) books.

The smuggling rings are mentioned separately from "weapon dealerships," and I'm not sure what to make of that.
RAG 92 describes these Black Market Weapons Dealers as having "an incredible array of product."
A typical selection of products include Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Wilk's, and a smattering of Triax and Black Market "knock-offs."
No mention of the Black Market weapons dealers in the Burbs selling CS gear, which may mean that it's highly illegal.

(Another interesting note unrelated to this conversation: RAG 98 discusses Tolkeen terrorist Suicide Squad attacks on the Burbs, which are "frequent")

I don't have time, but IIRC the Mercenaries book has a team of former(?) CS mercs who use CS gear the same way the Hammer does.

Hope some of that helps!

[The Beast]

SB1, page 54

The CS will not allow the average citizen, merchant, or corporation to own or operate a robot or robot vehicle within city limits. In some cases, ownership of a bot is declined within the CS territories. Only CS sanctioned and approved corporations are allowed to use robots in their business. All such robots must be registered with the CS.

This tells us that prior to the CS/Tolkeen war the CS heavily restricted who got to use robots in their AO. It goes on to say that travelers had to lock up their robots/mecha units whenever entering CS cities, and that borgs weren't allowed in if they had weapons and were either unable or unwilling to neutralize them. SB1r has the same section, along with a little info for stuff past 105PA, so it's likely that post-war the CS's stance on robots/mech units in this regards hasn't changed.

Also in SB1r on page 39 there is a brief section on illegal imports (Triax goods sold on the BM) and that the CS will confiscate such items. It also implies that there are authorized sellers of Triax goods (by stating the CS and NGR have trade agreements) and that Dead Boys look upon non-allied forces using Triax gear with extreme prejudice.

When looking at those two sections, my opinion is that eliakon may be close to how the CS would treat people using their equipment. If you only have a few of their low-tier weapons and equipment, and aren't on their big do-do list they'll be likely look away. If you have some of their heavy weapons, high-end tech, or mecha units you better be allied with them. If you have enough of their stuff to be considered selling/trading in it, you damn well better be an authorized salvager on your way to turn it all in at their collection point.

[dreicunan]

Heroes of Humanity p. 17 has some useful information as well:

Coalition soldiers take a hard stance toward anyone selling CS contraband and gear, especially if they are well-stocked in stolen goods. Sellers are raided by Dead Boys (or meres), roughed up and see ALL property of the Coalition States and their allies (NG and Quebec) confiscated and redistributed to the troops. Any seller who protests too loudly or pulls a weapon is beaten or gunned down where he stands. Such arms-dealing carpetbaggers are also likely to be placed under surveillance and followed to determine their supplier and whether they are innocent dupes or the actual criminals raiding, killing and looting Coalition soldiers.

And from page 22 (emphasis added):

In remote or unusually dangerous sections of the Coalition
States (which is generally everywhere outside the 'Burbs and fortified cities), citizens often form militias or local guard forces in order to better defend their town and territory. Equipped with leftover Coalition military gear and items from a range of civilian outfitters such as Northern Gun and the Manistique Imperium, Militiamen don't look like professional soldiers.
...
Militias are all supposed to be registered and regularly inspected, but many are hastily organized in response to specific threats or far enough away from population centers that they are seldom checked up on.

If they are hastily organized (implied to be unregistered) and yet have CS military gear, then that suggests they had the gear on hand before forming.

[eliakon]

One big issue will be the same one that affects the real world US Military and US Military gear
Namely "who has what where"
Both the US and the CS are big supporters of allied forces, and hand out tons of gear. This does many things, one of which is that it makes those allies dependant on the CS for support... since the CS is the only provider of the spare parts and such they will need.

Thus if the gear looks to be the 'second tier' stuff that is handed out it will not raise an eyebrow if a mercenary has some... after all they are very likely to have gotten it officially... or be able to claim that they did and back it up.
But you show up with something snazzy or first teir and they are going to assume you stole it and come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Thus simple hand weapons, old style body armor, old style PAs, old style light combat vehicles, generic munitions, light combat helicopters, transports, support gear, medical supplies, explosives, e-clips, ect are going to be pretty common in the mercenary world due to the way that the system works out... and frankly the CS doesn't care since it makes their job easier in many ways as they can monitor support of the gear and it makes incorporating theses mercenaries in operations easier.

Specialized weapons, new style armor, robot vehicles, artificial intelligences (such as skelbots), new style power armor, heavy combat vehicles, artillery, fighter jets, advanced aircraft, warships, cruise missiles, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons and the like... not so much, as these are not shared and thus can only be acquired by theft of as spoils of war... and thus simply having them is likely to be seen as basically a tacit act of war and dealt with accordingly.

the problem with this assumption that the CS hands out their older gear is that many of their older weapons arestill rare on the black market, none of their gear with the exception of vibro-blades (which everyone makes copies of) even *have* a cost that isn't a black market cost, even up as far as RUE, and RUE even goes out of its way to add that the old style body armour is still not commonly available in spite of the new models being rolled out.

That argument holds no water sorry.
No, really it doesn't
I say that because a LOT of stuff has only a "black market cost". Even stuff that is being sold in open catalogues and showrooms...oops?

that simply does not match with the idea that the CS is handing out their older stuff like it's halloween candy, unless it comes attached to CS soldiers (which they probably prefer, nothing like having a sizeable armed force in someone else's territory to erode their sovereignty in your favour). if they are handing out lower quality tech, it is more likely in the form of generic equipment (like the L-20) that is made by many manufacturers, or given recent world books specifically NG stuff, because available evidence shows that the equipment is not widely available, and indeed not available at all except from criminal organizations.

Too bad I didnt say that they hand it out like Halloween candy.
Nor did I say it was for sale all over the place on the open market

What I said was that they give out their surplus to their allies.
That is different.
Note that the US military gives out its surplus gear to its allies all the time...
...and yet for some reason you can't go into most gun dealers and just pick up a M113 or a Mk19. Odd how that works huh... it is almost as if "gives out gear to its allies" is not the same as "for sale on the open market".
Hence why you can't simply walk into "guns R we" and buy a case of CS military rifles. Just like you can't walk into your local gun shop and buy a case of US military weapons, even older stuff
You can get them on the black market pretty easy though as a lot of the older stuff is passed on to allies, where it is easier to redirect.
And your own argument doesn't even follow this logic the L-20 that you propose they had out instead? Guess what? RUE says it only has a Black Market Cost... oops! But that is because RUE had ANYTHING that was MDC as only having a Black Market Price. Thus even Wilks, Northern Gun, and Titan Industries could only be found on the Black Market... which means that as far as RUE is concerned a CS rifle and a Northern Gun rifle are just as equally available...

so again, i'm gonna have to stick with what the evidence shows: they won't react favourably, but they're not necessarily going to do anything about it immediately either. it won't make you any friends in the CS, but it probably won't lead to *immediate* hostilities in many cases. but ultimately, if you have CS gear, it was probably stolen from the CS supply chain (most likely by the black market, and then sold to you) or looted from CS troops (again, not necessarily by you, but you're still carrying ill-gotten gains that the CS likely considers to be their property, even if they can't always enforce that).

Which evidence is this?
I ask because the books say differently.
It is a crime to possess an illegal weapon in the CS. Punishable by fines and jail time. Since you can NOT BUY THE WEAPONS LEGALLY the books themselves say that they will go after you for breaking the law. Now if your an actual military unit? (and my hypothetical mercenaries would be considered that) then that's different as you might have a legitimate source for your gear.
so your above mentioned opinion is, in fact, 180* from the published canon...


(this of course ignores the other posters point about what the canon states about the normal gear of Militias in the CS)

[Mack]

What I said was that they give out their surplus to their allies.

Can you cite a reference for that?

[keir451]

IIRC in the original SB1, CS Col. Thaddeus Lyboc sells CS weapons to the Black Market (pre-War Campaign), so there are (at least) some old style CS weapons floating around. Going by what limited fluff we've seen mentioned the CS is more concerned with the possession of CS Power Armor first and weapons and body armor second, unless you're in the Burbs in which case the gloves are totally off. If you're out in the hinterlands and encounter a CS patrol they might turn a blind eye if you're human and not actively opposing or attacking the CS (depending on GM's thoughts) or they might demand you turn over the weapons and equipment immediately or they may just try and kill you outright (depends on the size of the CS patrol I'd think).

[Blue_Lion]

Not official but in my games, I have said that CS has sold some of its old style stock piles to pay for outfitting its war efforts and refitting its troops. So they do not arrest people for owning it but not allowed in there cities and some may be restricted in their territory. (similar to how the US government sold off some if its old gear.) New style is treated as being stolen from the CS.