CCW Power Armor

[jtjr26]

Just going over my Phase World books and I was wondering are the Silverhawk and Ground Pounder armors only fitted for Human sized users or are their non-human variants?

[Nightmask]

If I remember correctly the Wolfen are a big part of the CCW so I'd imagine they'd at least have Wolfen compatible versions.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd assume so, within reason. if a race is overly large or small perhaps not, but if they fall within the rough human scale and general humanoid bodyplan, sure.

[taalismn]

The smaller guys either sit in special chairs in the chest section or double up with one guy doing the legs and the other the arms.

[Axelmania]

I wonder if an Invalian Robo-Jockey could pilot a silverhawk

[dragonfett]

i'd assume so, within reason. if a race is overly large or small perhaps not, but if they fall within the rough human scale and general humanoid bodyplan, sure.

Exactly what would you constitute as overly large, then? The size of a wolfen is roughly 2x big (not talking just height here).

[eliakon]

i'd assume so, within reason. if a race is overly large or small perhaps not, but if they fall within the rough human scale and general humanoid bodyplan, sure.

Exactly what would you constitute as overly large, then? The size of a wolfen is roughly 2x big (not talking just height here).

7 or 8 feet wouldn't be to unreasonable.
if your over 8 feet tall, they probably would need either a specialized suit, or might simply shunt them to crew for mecha/tanks/ships/whatever

on the other side, I would say 5' is probably a good cut off for shortness

thus "pilots should be between 5' and 8' tall or so sounds fairly reasonable.

(just spitballing here, since Palladium is much more liberal with things than a lot of other more rigorus games would be)

[guardiandashi]

I'll toss out an idea, that there are a variety of sub designs that are functionally identical but designed with different pilots in mind.

lets say there is the human standard design, its designed with adjustable controls that can handle a pilot from ~100lbs to ~300lbs, and from ~5' to ~7' in height.
then there may be a "small pilot" variant that can handle pilots from ~3' in height up to ~5' in height.
and a large pilot version that can handle pilots from ~6' to ~8-9' in height (or possibly more)

note on some of the design variants like the "small" vs standard a large amount of the changes would be simply moving the control connections around, and possibly adjusting the tension (force required to operate the controls) on the other hand going from the standard to the large variant might literally require rebuilding portions of the unit on a larger scale to make room for the larger cockpit / pilot to physically fit.

I know its not an exact equivalent but look at modern cars, for a moment, the drivers seat usually has a range of adjustments that will allow an operator to use it comfortably, however in some cases the range of adjustment flat out is not sufficient. without other measures being taken.

I will use an example, I personally don't drive Toyotas, because both examples I have tried (a tercel, and a corolla ) there flat out is NOT enough legroom for me to comfortably operate the vehicle, in the case of the tercel, I had to literally roll in and out of the drivers seat because otherwise I could not get my legs between the seat and the steering wheel.
on the other hand every ford, Pontiac or chevy I have tried to drive worked just fine for me, but I imagine there are some people who may not be able to stretch far enough to safely operate the vehicle, in fact I know that was the case for my dad's Pontiac firebird.

[eliakon]

I'll toss out an idea, that there are a variety of sub designs that are functionally identical but designed with different pilots in mind.

lets say there is the human standard design, its designed with adjustable controls that can handle a pilot from ~100lbs to ~300lbs, and from ~5' to ~7' in height.
then there may be a "small pilot" variant that can handle pilots from ~3' in height up to ~5' in height.
and a large pilot version that can handle pilots from ~6' to ~8-9' in height (or possibly more)

note on some of the design variants like the "small" vs standard a large amount of the changes would be simply moving the control connections around, and possibly adjusting the tension (force required to operate the controls) on the other hand going from the standard to the large variant might literally require rebuilding portions of the unit on a larger scale to make room for the larger cockpit / pilot to physically fit.

I know its not an exact equivalent but look at modern cars, for a moment, the drivers seat usually has a range of adjustments that will allow an operator to use it comfortably, however in some cases the range of adjustment flat out is not sufficient. without other measures being taken.

I will use an example, I personally don't drive Toyotas, because both examples I have tried (a tercel, and a corolla ) there flat out is NOT enough legroom for me to comfortably operate the vehicle, in the case of the tercel, I had to literally roll in and out of the drivers seat because otherwise I could not get my legs between the seat and the steering wheel.
on the other hand every ford, Pontiac or chevy I have tried to drive worked just fine for me, but I imagine there are some people who may not be able to stretch far enough to safely operate the vehicle, in fact I know that was the case for my dad's Pontiac firebird.

As a note I will point out that basketball players don't require custom cars to drive. They won't be driving a Tercel or a Corolla, but they can drive off the shelf cars (probably those Pontiacs, or Chevies or what have you)

Which is why I picked the sizes I did.
Most teens can drive a car comfortably if they are around 5' or so while a 7'some odd inches basketball player can also drive a car as well.

That gives us a pretty good range for what a human craft can handle which is the question anyway...

[jingizu999]

First a disclaimer, as with many things, the rules are not explicit on this point and anything we say here is a matter of interpretation and should be viewed as such. None of this is a claim against canon or how you should play your game.

Since Eliakon mentioned basketball players, I have to point you to the example of Shaquille O'Neal, who at "only" 7'1" tall has famously had to have multiple cars modified to allow him to drive them. These have ranged from minor modifications allowing the driver's seat to be pushed back on custom extended rails behind the A-pillar, to custom built or modified stretch versions of existing cars. Most famously his custom stretched Ferrari 355 Spider, which had to have the top permanently removed for him to fit, and his custom stretched Lamborghini Gallardo, customized by the aerospace division of Gaffoglio Family Metalcrafters. And Shaq is within the realm of human variation, not a giant wolf half again human size. While it is true that "most" basketball players fit in "many" cars without modification or special accommodation, this isn't really good justification to say that a 8'6" tall wolf fits into an armor made for a 5'6" tall human, especially when the armor in question is only 9' tall in the first place.

It could be that a giant robot like the Battleram might be adjustable to a relatively wide assortment of body types, but the same just can't be said about a one man power armor. You are talking about a system designed to be worn, rather than piloted. And that's not even taking a Wolfen's muzzle and tail into account. Palladium's system has always played fast an lose with anything approaching logic, but certain things can be deduced from the real world. The more high-performance a mechanical system becomes, the tighter it's tolerances and the less room there is for accommodating operator variables. Almost anyone can fit in a Ford f-150, many people are too tall to drive a Lotus Elise, and a Formula-1 car is essentially built around it's driver. On top of that, we are talking about a military institution. They don't make accommodations, they just train you for a different job. The United States Air Force has a height requirement of 64 to 77 inches standing and 34 to 40 inches sitting for a pilot. If you are outside of those limits they don't modify an F-35 for you, they make you pilot drones, or turn a wrench, or dig latrines, or any other job that doesn't have a height requirement. In practical terms the CAF would do the same. If you don't fit the physical dimensions for a Silverhawk they aren't going to modify one for you, or build you a custom X sized Silverhawk. They are going to assign you to any of the other thousands of critical jobs in the CAF where your size isn't a hindrance. Maybe you are just a little too tall and they assign you to a Bombard or a Proctor. Or maybe you are a lot bigger and they make you crew on a Scimitar or hand you a rifle and say "welcome to the infantry".

Now, that being said, reality often needs to give way to game balance and playability. Given the large number of Wolfen in the CAF, and the relative lack of Wolfen specific equipment, I make certain adjustments. For my games I have made several pieces of historical Wolfen equipment, along the lines of the Packmaster. Wolfen specific gear that is not quite up to modern CCW standards but is perfectly serviceable, and prefered by some Wolfen supremacists. I have also made Wolfen specific versions of the Silverhawk and Groundpounder armors. These are statistically identical to the base armors, but accommodate Wolfen physiology. In my Phase World game, they make up 20% of the available units. The same could be done with other races, though the Noro are very unlikely to pilot military power armor and the Catyr are only slightly taller than human standard. Then again, I have always put limits on the adjustability of armor in the Palladium system, since K.S. either didn't think that far ahead or didn't want to deal with the issues it brings up. And I don’t really blame him for that.

As for the original question, while a Wolfen wouldn’t fit in the armors as depicted, there is nothing prohibiting a statistically identical version of the armors designed for Wolfen, Seljuk, or any other race in the CAF.

[eliakon]

I think there may have been some confusion on my stance.
Which is probably my fault for not being clear.

I don't think that anyone can wear anything. But what I do think is that 'standard gear' comes in stock sizes that will accomidated most standard races.
Just like real world clothing is not all onesize fits all, but instead we have various different sizes... those sizes cover the majority of the body types found in the population and thus you don't need to have custom clothing made for most people (some, but not most)

In the same way I would assume that militaries stock XS, XS, X, M, L, XL, XL body armor I would assume that they stock power armor (and all the other gear) in such size variants. An XL suit of PA may be taller, and weigh more... but wont have different MDC or the like.

If a being is outside the normal range of the stocked gear then they will need either specialized gear, or to be diverted to a branch/job where they can utilized what is available.

[jingizu999]

Ahh. I see where the confusion was, my bad. In that case Eliakon, I agree with you completely.

As a digression, if anyone has any interest in sizing or fitting power armor in fiction here are a few useful resources. Robert Heinlein’s Starship Troopers (the book, not that pos movie series) and John Ringo’s Empire of Man series both mention the hours taken to fit a suit of armor to an operator, and the headache trying to adapt one pilot’s armor for someone else. Sure, anyone can wear a suit of power armor. That doesn’t mean I can wear your armor and you can wear mine, even if they are the same model of armor. Ringo’s Aldenata series also has an interesting scene where it is revealed that the President’s protective detail is chosen based on their physical size, so that when the $#!* hits the fan, one of the marines can strip out of his power armor and stuff the president in it in his place. A good visual source is the anime OVA Metal Skin Panic MADOX-01. The main character, Koji, is shown having to use a wrench to adjust the spacing and fit of the legs and controls before he can put it on, and since the MADOX-01 isn’t environmentally sealed, it is far more forgiving than most fictional power armors. The opening scene shows the design and testing phase, with a few sections showing how important it is for the pilot’s joints to align with the armor’s. It’s an old anime from the late ‘80’s, but in my opinion the MADOX-01 is still one of the best designed power armors in fiction. Basically, unless you are Ironman and you are using nanites and the power of handwavium, fitting armor should be an involved process.

Edited to correct a spelling mistake.

[eliakon]

As an aside, in a game I was in our group got our hands on a batch of NEMA Silver Eagles. SCORE!
My cybernetic assassin wanted one. The problem was that she is 4'10", in her boots, and her body is scaled like that of a teenage kid.
The GM said "no dice its not that adjustable." We ended up having to have our techs rebuild her a suit (the Silver Egret) that fit her... and in the process lost 10% of its MDC in each hit location.

I assume that sort of thing would be the norm for people who are to far outside the 'flex factor' range of a given suit.

[Axelmania]

I would assume Human/Noro. Wolfen are too honorable and awesome to need that, they can just pilot tanks/robots or become borgs.

[Warshield73]

I just like to keep this simple, this is a game and players want to have as many choices as possible. The two examples of CCW PAs, Ground Pounder and Silverhawk, are both 9 feet tall. The dominant races of the CCW are human (6 feet give or take a few inches), noro (7 to 8 feet) and wolfen (7 to 9 feet). I always said it was adjustable from 5'6 to 8'. This gives you most of the humans and wolfen and all of the Noro. It even allows for a sizable number of the secondary races like the Oni to use them.

I would assume Human/Noro. Wolfen are too honorable and awesome to need that, they can just pilot tanks/robots or become borgs.

Here is the question I have always had, what is the minimum/maximum size of a pilot for armored vehicles, robot vehicles and space fighters? I have never had someone ask for a Seljuk to use a Silverhawk but can they fly Scorpion or Black Eagle Fighter? Can they be the weapons officer on a Battleram robot? I have always said yes but what have other people done.

This also goes to the births on Starships. If a ship can fit a noro or wolfen down its corridors and in its crew births then humans are going to find them beyond luxurious.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I just like to keep this simple, this is a game and players want to have as many choices as possible. The two examples of CCW PAs, Ground Pounder and Silverhawk, are both 9 feet tall. The dominant races of the CCW are human (6 feet give or take a few inches), noro (7 to 8 feet) and wolfen (7 to 9 feet). I always said it was adjustable from 5'6 to 8'. This gives you most of the humans and wolfen and all of the Noro. It even allows for a sizable number of the secondary races like the Oni to use them.

I would assume Human/Noro. Wolfen are too honorable and awesome to need that, they can just pilot tanks/robots or become borgs.

Here is the question I have always had, what is the minimum/maximum size of a pilot for armored vehicles, robot vehicles and space fighters? I have never had someone ask for a Seljuk to use a Silverhawk but can they fly Scorpion or Black Eagle Fighter? Can they be the weapons officer on a Battleram robot? I have always said yes but what have other people done.

This also goes to the births on Starships. If a ship can fit a noro or wolfen down its corridors and in its crew births then humans are going to find them beyond luxurious.

You could say they use nanotech to handwave the problem and that berths, seats, ect, automatically adjust for the user within reasonable ranges.

Power armor is a bit trickier, in a lot of cases you'd need to make variant armors with size adjusted to fit various races, which is technologically possible--no reason the CCW couldn't make a Silverhawk to fit a Wolven or Seljik or whatnot, but the fact all power armors have an exact dimension listed means we don't know how many of these variants might be made.

my take: Races with distinctly nonhuman features might not be able to wear stock armor made for humans, but there's really no reason that you can't get a power armor made for any given species. It's just a question of how much it will cost and how long you have to wait.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm sure the CCW has pa fitted to every major race, to include wolfen... after all the TGE does with its Mk II pa, and they're more elitist towards kreeghor than the CCW is towards any race.

[Warshield73]

I'm sure the CCW has pa fitted to every major race, to include wolfen... after all the TGE does with its Mk II pa, and they're more elitist towards kreeghor than the CCW is towards any race.

This was actually my reason for saying the Silverhawk. The Warlord Mk II says "it is designed to fit most humanoid races who fight as soldiers for the Transgalactic Empire, including humans and wolfen."

After looking at this my players and I just decided that it was automatic. That way a wolfen could use a power armor that was used by a human.

We approached this very differently in Rifts where PA is all human and has to be altered by an Operator.

[Axelmania]

MkII sets precednt we will b told of custom armor with dif stats if it exists, ergo no Wolfen Silverhawks.

[Warshield73]

MkII sets precednt we will b told of custom armor with dif stats if it exists, ergo no Wolfen Silverhawks.

Why no wolfen? Why not no human Silverhwak. Nothing in the description that says it fits humans that I could find. That kind of rules lawyering makes the game so much less.

[Axelmania]

Why no wolfen?
Why not no human Silverhwak.
Nothing in the description that says it fits humans that I could find.
That kind of rules lawyering makes the game so much less.

Actually, world-building by paying attention to specifics and demographics makes the game so much MORE. There are going to be variations in what different species do when working together!

DB2p53 lists humans as 21% of the population, and I hope we can agree that adults will average between 5 and 6 feet. Now compare heights and populations:

DB2p62 "Size: Seven to eight feet tall" (Noro, 20% of the population)
DB2p65 "Size: 7 to 9 feet" (Wolfen, 14% of the population)
DB2p69 "Size: six to seven feet tall" (Catyr, 11% of the population)
DB2p70 "Size: 9 to 12 feet tall" (Seljuk, 10% of the population)
DB2p132 "Height: 9 feet" for the Silverhawk.

Notice page 119, the CAF Jumpsuit has a special note:

The suit can be designed for a number of different shapes
and can accomodate wolfen
(although they dislike the "tail pockets" of the suits and constantly complain about them),
noro and even less humanoid races

If you look on page 120, CAF Battle Armor (standard issue combat) makes no mention of special accomodations, while CAF Heavy Battle Armor refers to "Non-humanoid versions" implying it is a lot more versatile in design.

Page 121 mentions of Imperial Legionnaire's Armor

different versions are manufactured for all the major races in the Empire

implying there would be a Wolfen version.

This is ongoing precedent that we will be told if there are established variations to standard designs.

Before further discussing the Wolfen, I would like to know your opinion of the Seljuk and the Silverhawks. The minimum height for Seljuks is the maximum height for Wolfen (seven feet) so if we were to allow ALL wolfen to pilot Silverhawks, we should consider that some Seljuks may also be able to pilot them. They would also clearly need "tail pockets" too, judging by page 69's illustration by Breaux. They also have elongated snouts which page 131's illustration by Long doesn't appear to necessarily accomodate.

I would suggest we consider this is potentially even more restrictive than excluding Seljuk and Wolfen. I don't think Noro necessarily pilot this either. Page 132 mentions "The pilot is forced to rely on his own human vision" for example, so it is clearly written from a human assumption.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to allow short Catyrs to pilot it, as they're only about a foot taller, but the noro are on average TWO feet taller (and I don't even know if that includes their awkward head-spikes), and they already have the "Psionic Power Armor" to use. It is also 9 feet and page 128 specifically says:

it has been adapted to fit any humanoid psychic wearers

We aren't told that about the Silverhawk! Unfortunately this wouldn't be a regular substitute for Wolfen, as page 66 points out:

most wolfen dislike and distrust the noro

It might be a good option for the rare psychic Oni though (DB3p16, they are 7-9 feet tall like the Wolfen) who I also expect would not be regular candidates for piloting Silverhawks.

If one has to wager on what a 9ft PA not explicitly described as "adapted to fit any humanoid" is designed to include, I would say (especially since it's been in service over a hundred years) the shorter and most populous of the founding species, not the taller, lower-population new arrivals with a warrior culture which would not appeal to stealth infiltration of ship forcefields.

It just seems OOC with the personality of Seljuk/Wolfen/Oni to gravitate to PA like this, enough so that whatever minority might be interested in doing so would not incentivize special modifications to that PA. The CCW probably keeps costs down by mass-producing it in a narrower range, unlike other PA which specifically notes more customization.

I believe the same applies to the Ground Pounder (DB2p135) also 9ft, also specifies "human vision", also no mention of "adapted to fit any humanoid", also no visible "tail pocket".

Compare for example how DB2p139 specifies the Warlord Mark II is "designed to fit most humanoid races who fight as soldiers for the Transgalactic Empire, including humans and wolfen". It is TEN feet tall.

There's plenty of stuff suited for Wolfen to use, such as the Phalanx Main Battle Tank on 145 and Maniple IFV APC on 147. Even non-supremacist Wolfen still probably favor their own culture's contributions to the CCW rather than stuff inherited from the initial Human-Noro collaboration.

[Warshield73]

Why no wolfen?
Why not no human Silverhwak.
Nothing in the description that says it fits humans that I could find.
That kind of rules lawyering makes the game so much less.

The first thing I notice is that you didn't answer my question. If you build the Sliverhawk for 7 to 8 feet Noro it could fit half of wulfen and if it could go 7 to 8.5 feet, which there is no reason a power armor couldn't vary 18 inches, then it would fit almost 1/3 of the CCW population and between IQ, PS, heightened senses and psionic powers Noro and Wolfen would be far superior soldiers to humans.

So again, what do you find in the text that says the Silverhawks are for humans and not for the Wulfen or Noro. Seriously, the 9 foot height is beyond what you would need for a human so in a way, Wulfen and Noro make more sense.

Actually, world-building by paying attention to specifics and demographics makes the game so much MORE. There are going to be variations in what different species do when working together!

I did pay attention and in addition to not answering my question I noticed that there is noting in any of the descriptions that say this is wulfen, this is noro, this is human.

What you are describing is actually a very interesting idea, if you had a large book with a dozen different power armors, hand weapons, OCCs and different types of body armor. I could see a situation, similar to a Southern Cross style from Robotech, where each race has there own armor that emphasizes there abilities and attributes. But we don't have that book so all your interpretation does nothing but limit players options in Phase World more than any PC on Rifts Earth.

DB2p53 lists humans as 21% of the population, and I hope we can agree that adults will average between 5 and 6 feet. Now compare heights and populations:

Nope, the US Army accepts applicants from 4'10" to 6'8" according to the website. It is hard to believe that average height in a civilization with better healthcare and diet would be less.

DB2p62 "Size: Seven to eight feet tall" (Noro, 20% of the population)
DB2p65 "Size: 7 to 9 feet" (Wolfen, 14% of the population)
DB2p69 "Size: six to seven feet tall" (Catyr, 11% of the population)
DB2p70 "Size: 9 to 12 feet tall" (Seljuk, 10% of the population)
DB2p132 "Height: 9 feet" for the Silverhawk.

Notice page 119, the CAF Jumpsuit has a special note:

The suit can be designed for a number of different shapes
and can accomodate wolfen
(although they dislike the "tail pockets" of the suits and constantly complain about them),
noro and even less humanoid races

If you look on page 120, CAF Battle Armor (standard issue combat) makes no mention of special accomodations, while CAF Heavy Battle Armor refers to "Non-humanoid versions" implying it is a lot more versatile in design.

Page 121 mentions of Imperial Legionnaire's Armor

different versions are manufactured for all the major races in the Empire

implying there would be a Wolfen version.

This is ongoing precedent that we will be told if there are established variations to standard designs.

Or, it is sloppy editing and since it is a game the writers figured readers would fill in the blanks.

This also makes no sense from a military point of view. If the technology is available to make the power armor fit multiple races, and it clearly does from the Warlord Mark II, then why wouldn't they.

Before further discussing the Wolfen, I would like to know your opinion of the Seljuk and the Silverhawks. The minimum height for Seljuks is the maximum height for Wolfen (seven feet) so if we were to allow ALL wolfen to pilot Silverhawks, we should consider that some Seljuks may also be able to pilot them. They would also clearly need "tail pockets" too, judging by page 69's illustration by Breaux. They also have elongated snouts which page 131's illustration by Long doesn't appear to necessarily accomodate.

There is nothing specifically that forbids it but I excluded them from standard armor for the following reason
- Size
- Body shape, including the head and a large tail that is almost certainly needed for balance allow that is not stated specifically
- Feet and hands are clawed and three fingered
This is one of the many races that is different enough to require special armor. Again, nothing specific just what I consider different enough.

I have to ask you about the Katana space fighter. It was built by Oni, 7 to 9 feet tall, so does this mean humans are too small for it. Are fighters similarly suited to just one race or just power armor and what is specifically stated in the text that makes you say this?

I would suggest we consider this is potentially even more restrictive than excluding Seljuk and Wolfen. I don't think Noro necessarily pilot this either. Page 132 mentions "The pilot is forced to rely on his own human vision" for example, so it is clearly written from a human assumption.

To be honest when I read this part I decided not to even respond to your post as I felt I was just being trolled. Then I read your post on the UWW and realized you are just unbelievably literal.

DB 2: Phase World, page 137 - The Warlord Mk I power armor that is specifically listed for Kreeghor only. If you read under the first asterisk where it talks about destruction of the helmet it says 'the pilot must rely on his own human vision" so by your reasoning Kreeghor can not pilot a power armor specifically designed for them.

Also, since you are big on precedent the Warlord Mk I specifically says that it is for Kreeghor only so if the Silverhawk was for humans only, it would say so.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to allow short Catyrs to pilot it, as they're only about a foot taller, but the noro are on average TWO feet taller (and I don't even know if that includes their awkward head-spikes), and they already have the "Psionic Power Armor" to use. It is also 9 feet and page 128 specifically says:

it has been adapted to fit any humanoid psychic wearers

We aren't told that about the Silverhawk! Unfortunately this wouldn't be a regular substitute for Wolfen, as page 66 points out:

most wolfen dislike and distrust the noro

It might be a good option for the rare psychic Oni though (DB3p16, they are 7-9 feet tall like the Wolfen) who I also expect would not be regular candidates for piloting Silverhawks.

If one has to wager on what a 9ft PA not explicitly described as "adapted to fit any humanoid" is designed to include, I would say (especially since it's been in service over a hundred years) the shorter and most populous of the founding species, not the taller, lower-population new arrivals with a warrior culture which would not appeal to stealth infiltration of ship forcefields.

It just seems OOC with the personality of Seljuk/Wolfen/Oni to gravitate to PA like this, enough so that whatever minority might be interested in doing so would not incentivize special modifications to that PA. The CCW probably keeps costs down by mass-producing it in a narrower range, unlike other PA which specifically notes more customization.

I believe the same applies to the Ground Pounder (DB2p135) also 9ft, also specifies "human vision", also no mention of "adapted to fit any humanoid", also no visible "tail pocket".

Compare for example how DB2p139 specifies the Warlord Mark II is "designed to fit most humanoid races who fight as soldiers for the Transgalactic Empire, including humans and wolfen". It is TEN feet tall.

There's plenty of stuff suited for Wolfen to use, such as the Phalanx Main Battle Tank on 145 and Maniple IFV APC on 147. Even non-supremacist Wolfen still probably favor their own culture's contributions to the CCW rather than stuff inherited from the initial Human-Noro collaboration.

A Phalanx requires a crew of 5 and maniple is 3. Do you force many players in your group to be there crew or give the Wulfen player 2 to 4 NPCs just to operate them. These vehicles are also way too large to fit in most spacecraft unless you are in the habit of giving your players a heavy frigate or light cruiser. They are also useless in space battles, so not as good for player groups.

Also, again where in the text do you get that the Sliverhawk is human design?

I get what you are trying to say here but I really have no time for rules lawyering of this magnitude. This is a game, it is meant for characters to have fun and to have as many options as possible. Limiting those options by an incredibly literal reading of the text just to me serves no purpose.

Ultimately this comes down to style. I prefer to have an open system that does not artificially restrict players choices you seem to have a different approach. The only thing that bothers me is that for some things you want to have an incredibly literal reading, only the Warlord MkII auto-adjusts for different species, but in other places you make giant assumptions with no basis in the text, Silverhawks are human design.

[eliakon]

MkII sets precednt we will b told of custom armor with dif stats if it exists, ergo no Wolfen Silverhawks.

you have that backward.
The standard is "this fits anyone and everyone unless we are told it is race specific"
Because other wise virtually all armor in the game then fits NOBODY as there are no races listed.

[Axelmania]

No, the standard is "fits races that fit the measurement / design", otherwise I can most likely fit a Splugorth inside a suit of Crusader Body Armor because they are not specifically excepted.

DB2 has several examples I've pointed out where it's clearly an opt-in system. You also have to look at context of the designers and their intended recipients.

The first thing I notice is that you didn't answer my question.

I did, I provided a thorough explanation for my conclusions.

If you build the Sliverhawk for 7 to 8 feet Noro it could fit half of wulfen and if it could go 7 to 8.5 feet, which there is no reason a power armor couldn't vary 18 inches, then it would fit almost 1/3 of the CCW population and between IQ, PS, heightened senses and psionic powers Noro and Wolfen would be far superior soldiers to humans.

There might be some custom rules out there for custom alterations of power-armor to be taller or shorter. I am only commenting on the stated default stats, which are presumably the most common dimensions of mass-produced power armor. Custom variations would naturally exist, but I think they would be more expensive and less common.

So again, what do you find in the text that says the Silverhawks are for humans and not for the Wulfen or Noro.

It's IMPLIED, not a strict rule.

Seriously, the 9 foot height is beyond what you would need for a human so in a way, Wulfen and Noro make more sense.

That would depend on the thickness of the armor. The lack of room for head spikes or tails implies neither race would be comfortable in something of that design.

Of course, some Noro do shave their headspikes (we see that in the Noro Psychic illustration) so Noro short enough to fit into PA designed for tall humans might choose to do that.

I think it would be less often that a Wolfen would opt to amputate their tails to fit inside, and having your tail shoved into a leg compartment probably isn't any more comfortable than a tail pocket. I suppose a thick torso might have room to keep the tail held vertically, but that doesn't seem comfortable either.

I did pay attention and in addition to not answering my question I noticed that there is noting in any of the descriptions that say this is wulfen, this is noro, this is human.

We are explicitly told when one suit is made to accomodate wolfen, though.

Nope, the US Army accepts applicants from 4'10" to 6'8" according to the website. It is hard to believe that average height in a civilization with better healthcare and diet would be less.

This wouldn't mean all equipment is sized for people on either extreme. Particularly expensive multimultimillion dollar ehicles.

Or, it is sloppy editing and since it is a game the writers figured readers would fill in the blanks.

Including explicit notes is not "sloppy editing". It's a choice to indicate accomodations on some equipment and not others.

This also makes no sense from a military point of view. If the technology is available to make the power armor fit multiple races, and it clearly does from the Warlord Mark II, then why wouldn't they.

Mark II is TGE tech, Silverhawk is CCW tech. Mark II doesn't have to worry about stealth tech.

DB 2: Phase World, page 137 - The Warlord Mk I power armor that is specifically listed for Kreeghor only. If you read under the first asterisk where it talks about destruction of the helmet it says 'the pilot must rely on his own human vision" so by your reasoning Kreeghor can not pilot a power armor specifically designed for them.

I didn't notice that bit The only possible conclusion I can draw here is that Kreeghors have inferior eyes and so they have them amputated and pluck out the eyes of humans and install those.

Also, since you are big on precedent the Warlord Mk I specifically says that it is for Kreeghor only so if the Silverhawk was for humans only, it would say so.

I never said Silverhawks were for human only, I just think it's designed for human body structure so it would be best suited for races with that structure. Catyrs/Elves who are basically just tall humans in anatomical regard would be fine. Noro are taller than that! Wolfen even taller. Seljuk even taller. Gotta draw a line somewhere.

Also, again where in the text do you get that the Sliverhawk is human design?

I believe it is implied by it being in service for over a hundred years, and the Wolfen are not founding members of the CCW like the Human/Noro are. Of course I haven't been able to pin down exactly when the Wolfen Republic fell apart and its members joined the CCW/TGE, anyone know how long ago that was?

I really have no time for rules lawyering of this magnitude. This is a game, it is meant for characters to have fun and to have as many options as possible. Limiting those options by an incredibly literal reading of the text just to me serves no purpose.

This is world-building, not rules lawyering. Also no: having "as many options as possible" doesn't necessarily make a game more fun. GMs are free to say "the merchant isn't selling that gun you want" or "the mage won't teach you that spell" for example, or "the operator hates elves and won't repair the elves armor unless he pays 100x markup".

[Axelmania]

No, the standard is "fits races that fit the measurement / design", otherwise I can most likely fit a Splugorth inside a suit of Crusader Body Armor because they are not specifically excepted.

DB2 has several examples I've pointed out where it's clearly an opt-in system. You also have to look at context of the designers and their intended recipients.

The first thing I notice is that you didn't answer my question.

I did, I provided a thorough explanation for my conclusions.

If you build the Sliverhawk for 7 to 8 feet Noro it could fit half of wulfen and if it could go 7 to 8.5 feet, which there is no reason a power armor couldn't vary 18 inches, then it would fit almost 1/3 of the CCW population and between IQ, PS, heightened senses and psionic powers Noro and Wolfen would be far superior soldiers to humans.

There might be some custom rules out there for custom alterations of power-armor to be taller or shorter. I am only commenting on the stated default stats, which are presumably the most common dimensions of mass-produced power armor. Custom variations would naturally exist, but I think they would be more expensive and less common.

So again, what do you find in the text that says the Silverhawks are for humans and not for the Wulfen or Noro.

It's IMPLIED, not a strict rule.

Seriously, the 9 foot height is beyond what you would need for a human so in a way, Wulfen and Noro make more sense.

That would depend on the thickness of the armor. The lack of room for head spikes or tails implies neither race would be comfortable in something of that design.

Of course, some Noro do shave their headspikes (we see that in the Noro Psychic illustration) so Noro short enough to fit into PA designed for tall humans might choose to do that.

I think it would be less often that a Wolfen would opt to amputate their tails to fit inside, and having your tail shoved into a leg compartment probably isn't any more comfortable than a tail pocket. I suppose a thick torso might have room to keep the tail held vertically, but that doesn't seem comfortable either.

I did pay attention and in addition to not answering my question I noticed that there is noting in any of the descriptions that say this is wulfen, this is noro, this is human.

We are explicitly told when one suit is made to accomodate wolfen, though.

Nope, the US Army accepts applicants from 4'10" to 6'8" according to the website. It is hard to believe that average height in a civilization with better healthcare and diet would be less.

This wouldn't mean all equipment is sized for people on either extreme. Particularly expensive multimultimillion dollar ehicles.

Or, it is sloppy editing and since it is a game the writers figured readers would fill in the blanks.

Including explicit notes is not "sloppy editing". It's a choice to indicate accomodations on some equipment and not others.

This also makes no sense from a military point of view. If the technology is available to make the power armor fit multiple races, and it clearly does from the Warlord Mark II, then why wouldn't they.

Mark II is TGE tech, Silverhawk is CCW tech. Mark II doesn't have to worry about stealth tech.

DB 2: Phase World, page 137 - The Warlord Mk I power armor that is specifically listed for Kreeghor only. If you read under the first asterisk where it talks about destruction of the helmet it says 'the pilot must rely on his own human vision" so by your reasoning Kreeghor can not pilot a power armor specifically designed for them.

I didn't notice that bit The only possible conclusion I can draw here is that Kreeghors have inferior eyes and so they have them amputated and pluck out the eyes of humans and install those.

Also, since you are big on precedent the Warlord Mk I specifically says that it is for Kreeghor only so if the Silverhawk was for humans only, it would say so.

I never said Silverhawks were for human only, I just think it's designed for human body structure so it would be best suited for races with that structure. Catyrs/Elves who are basically just tall humans in anatomical regard would be fine. Noro are taller than that! Wolfen even taller. Seljuk even taller. Gotta draw a line somewhere.

Also, again where in the text do you get that the Sliverhawk is human design?

I believe it is implied by it being in service for over a hundred years, and the Wolfen are not founding members of the CCW like the Human/Noro are. Of course I haven't been able to pin down exactly when the Wolfen Republic fell apart and its members joined the CCW/TGE, anyone know how long ago that was?

I really have no time for rules lawyering of this magnitude. This is a game, it is meant for characters to have fun and to have as many options as possible. Limiting those options by an incredibly literal reading of the text just to me serves no purpose.

This is world-building, not rules lawyering. Also no: having "as many options as possible" doesn't necessarily make a game more fun. GMs are free to say "the merchant isn't selling that gun you want" or "the mage won't teach you that spell" for example, or "the operator hates elves and won't repair the elves armor unless he pays 100x markup".

[eliakon]

No, the standard is "fits races that fit the measurement / design", otherwise I can most likely fit a Splugorth inside a suit of Crusader Body Armor because they are not specifically excepted.

NOPE! Nice try though. But that is not the standard
If you are stating that armor must be race specific, then it must be race specific in the text.
Especially since the size of the suit does not always relate to the pilot size.
Unless you can point to ANY text anywhere creating this 'standard' then it is simply a house rule that you have spun out of whole cloth and is not a standard anywhere but your personal games.

And yes, there is somewhere a suit of Crusader Armor that fits a Splugorth. It will not have any more MDC though.

More to the point everyone doesn't fit in every suit. What DOES happen though is that if you want Suit X, you can have one. It is assumed that you can get a suit that fits you... but it will not always fit others, nor will it have any stat differences.

DB2 has several examples I've pointed out where it's clearly an opt-in system. You also have to look at context of the designers and their intended recipients.

Yes, race specific is opt-in.
As in you must opt in to having a suit be race locked or it is NOT race locked.

[Axelmania]

You might be interested, in reference to 12 ft tall Seljuk, that pages 37-38 of Splynn Dimensional Market discuss custom armor for larger-than-human anatomies, ending with how they can make human suits up to 150 MDC but giant-size (12ft and taller) can have up to 450.

That's a pretty larger leap (triple the MDC for merely double the height)

Think of IRL how it's sometimes hard to find larger SHOE sizes. Shoes simply for the human anatomy in its minor variations compared to the amount which would exist for taking other species into account.

There's going to be a point where a CCW citizen like the Durosk (DB5p35) comes along, and the R+D needed to modify a suit like the Silverhawk wouldn't be worth the expense for the minority who would actually become pilots, so it is logical to assume it wouldn't happen.

Obviously since they have humanoid anatomy and size, races like the Faustian and Iborian on the next pages wouldn't cause problems.

Races like Wolfen/Seljuk are a gray area. They are "humanoid" in the sense of 2 legs 2 arms, but they are larger than humans and have tails and snouts which would pose problems wearing armor designed for humans and a humanoid races like Catyr/Noro who compose a larger portion of the population and are shorter and lack snouts/tails.

If you are stating that armor must be race specific, then it must be race specific in the text.

Firstly, please ditch "race", 137 says "the kreeghor race's unique anatomy" so I would prefer we use ANATOMY as the term of choice here.

Obviously races with human-like anatomy and size could wear human armors, so I am obviously not saying armor is "race" specific. But obviously some armor is built with certain anatomy in mind.

Are you saying that since there isn't any text forbidding Kreeghor from wearing "Dead Boy" armor, that they would be able to?

Especially since the size of the suit does not always relate to the pilot size.

You definitely can't fit a pilot bigger than the armor inside the armor, there's no TARDIS power armor. So it certainly does always relate.

Unless you can point to ANY text anywhere creating this 'standard' then it is simply a house rule that you have spun out of whole cloth and is not a standard anywhere but your personal games.

This is a standard of common sense players are expected to apply when playing the game, otherwize I'm going to fit some Volate Metzla inside a SAMAS.

And yes, there is somewhere a suit of Crusader Armor that fits a Splugorth. It will not have any more MDC though.

Not unless it has been custom-designed. That's an absurd idea. There's nothing in the books at all which indicate that there exists a Crusader modified to fit a Splugorth.

Armor customization rules may allow for the possibility which you can RP out if you like, for your individual setting, but we are intended to assume that they are default design unless indicated otherwise.

More to the point everyone doesn't fit in every suit. What DOES happen though is that if you want Suit X, you can have one. It is assumed that you can get a suit that fits you... but it will not always fit others, nor will it have any stat differences.

No, it is NOT assumed that everything just automatically works out to be catered to the PCs. Often things do not work out for PCs.

Yes, race specific is opt-in.
As in you must opt in to having a suit be race locked or it is NOT race locked.

I am going to remind you that from now on if you use "race" instead of "anatomy" I will consider it a straw man argument. There are many races with human-like anatomy who would not face problems wearing armor designed for those of human anatomy and size.

There's a world of difference between elves/catr and seljuk/wolfen/kreeghor, for example.

[Vrykolas2k]

As many wolfen as there are in the CCW armed forces, they're not exactly a minority... Silverhawks would be made for wolfen pilots.
Might be some for oni as well, though the oni make up a far lesser percentage.

[Axelmania]

Making up a significant portion of the population wouldn't necessarily mean all gear has a mass-produced modified version to fit you. That may not be cost-effective for an organization dealing with intergalactic wars. Modification may be the minority not the majority.

[Vrykolas2k]

Making up a significant portion of the population wouldn't necessarily mean all gear has a mass-produced modified version to fit you. That may not be cost-effective for an organization dealing with intergalactic wars. Modification may be the minority not the majority.

If the TGE does it for their personnel, which let's face it the TGE is far more biased towards the Kreeghor than the CCW will ever be towards any one race, then yes I'd say the CCW has Wolfen silver-hawks... or whatever.
The percentage of Wolfen is pretty high in the CCW, and their ratio to join the military would be higher than that of any other race.

[Axelmania]

TGE is more warlike though, CCW may be on a stricter budget because they're spending their cash feeding the poor.

The ratio of Wolfen in the CCW doesn't matter if they are so honorable that they're fine with taking what they're given (or using traditional wolfen equipment) instead of demanding special customs of human-based gear.

Wolfen in the TGE, if offered goodies though, may not turn them down.

[Vrykolas2k]

TGE is more warlike though, CCW may be on a stricter budget because they're spending their cash feeding the poor.

The ratio of Wolfen in the CCW doesn't matter if they are so honorable that they're fine with taking what they're given (or using traditional wolfen equipment) instead of demanding special customs of human-based gear.

Wolfen in the TGE, if offered goodies though, may not turn them down.

What makes you think it's human based gear?
This isn't the humanocentric 1st ed. AD&D.

[taalismn]

I wonder if an Invalian Robo-Jockey could pilot a silverhawk

I'd like to say no...not without a lot of overly-expensive modifications.
Why?
Because Invalians are so fragile, and their exoskeletons are so specialized, trying to plunk them in a Silverhawk would be like putting a wheelchair-bound guy with a degenerative muscle disease in the cockpit of an F-16 and expecting him to perform like an ace.

[Warshield73]

TGE is more warlike though, CCW may be on a stricter budget because they're spending their cash feeding the poor.

The ratio of Wolfen in the CCW doesn't matter if they are so honorable that they're fine with taking what they're given (or using traditional wolfen equipment) instead of demanding special customs of human-based gear.

Wolfen in the TGE, if offered goodies though, may not turn them down.

Again, you have provided no in text example of why this is human gear. Given the height and the artwork some would say that the pilot has to be taller than human average and given the Noro are a founding race, and much taller, if it only fits one race you would have to say it's Noro not human.

If what you said about the CCW budget was true than their equipment would be crap, not the best in the book.

Also what does being honrable have to do with it? And traditional gear, you mean like swords? Does that mean that every pilot that wants to fly an F-22 has no honor because they want to fly the best fighter they can? I'm not trying to be combative here I really just don't understand.

I wonder if an Invalian Robo-Jockey could pilot a silverhawk

I'd like to say no...not without a lot of overly-expensive modifications.
Why?
Because Invalians are so fragile, and their exoskeletons are so specialized, trying to plunk them in a Silverhawk would be like putting a wheelchair-bound guy with a degenerative muscle disease in the cockpit of an F-16 and expecting him to perform like an ace.

Agreed. I had a player ask about this and I told him it would cost as much as one of the robots they pilot plus the cost of the Silver Hawk and the bonuses would be Invalain only. He switched to a Turbo Jock.

[Axelmania]

What makes you think it's human based gear?
This isn't the humanocentric 1st ed. AD&D.

As I explained earlier: the CCW was founded by humans and Noro, and they are the 2 most prolific species in it.

Again, you have provided no in text example of why this is human gear.

The text justification is the CCW history. There's good reason to assume that the founding and most prolific members of the CCW are the ones the gear is primarily made to fit.

Given the height and the artwork some would say that the pilot has to be taller than human average

Would you say that for Glitter Boys too?

and given the Noro are a founding race, and much taller, if it only fits one race you would have to say it's Noro not human.

I never said 'only fits one race'. Tall humans and short Catyr/Noro are similar enough in dimensions, for example.

If what you said about the CCW budget was true than their equipment would be crap, not the best in the book.

Being on a budget doesn't mean you can't produce SOME great stuff on the cheap.

Also what does being honrable have to do with it?

"My vulnerable human allies can have this flying tank, I can get by with this heavy body armor"

And traditional gear, you mean like swords? Does that mean that every pilot that wants to fly an F-22 has no honor because they want to fly the best fighter they can?

This very question is dishonoring the contributions of non-pilots.

Your size is very much a contribution to things like what you plan to pilot.

"Pilots have to meet the Air Force’s height, weight and physical conditioning requirements. They must be 64 to 77 inches tall when standing, and 34 to 40 inches tall when sitting."

Wolfen don't seem the type to complain that humans should divert resources to build wolfen-sized power armor modifications.

[Warshield73]

1. CCW is founded by humans and noro so there is nothing in the text to say humans and not noro.

2. Humans and noro are the largest part of the CCW but there is nothing to say they make up a majority of the CAF. Look at the race and gender stats for the US military, they do not match the population at large. With everything you have said yourself about the Wolfen they would be more likely to go for a military career than humans and definitely noro.

3. I guess you have never looked at the artwork for the Glitterboy, if you had you would have seen how a human pilot fits in. This is why the GB is so out of proportion with long lower legs and shorter arms. The human knee fits in the knee of the GB but his foot is nowhere near the foot of the GB. That is taken up by the anti-sway pilons. The Siverhawk in 9 feet tall but has regular proportions. There is no indication, and given the artwork no physical way, that the human foot would be anywhere other than the foot of the PA. This really makes me think that you are just arguing to argue since the GB is literally the worst counter example you could use and I already said above that on Rifts Earth I very specifically limit who can pilot PA because they are made specifically for humans, unless stated otherwise.

"My vulnerable human allies can have this flying tank, I can get by with this heavy body armor"

Wolfen don't seem the type to complain that humans should divert resources to build wolfen-sized power armor modifications.

I have no idea where you are getting this from. I must have missed the part in PFRPG where the wolfen empire fights with slingshots and wooden clubs to give the other side a fighting chance.

The Wulfen are SDC creatures barely any stronger and not much tougher than humans in a dimension filled with MDC races this just seems over simplistic or making them Klingon-light.

And traditional gear, you mean like swords? Does that mean that every pilot that wants to fly an F-22 has no honor because they want to fly the best fighter they can?

This very question is dishonoring the contributions of non-pilots.

This is cheap and trolling and it really makes me think that you are best reported or ignored than responded to.

[taalismn]

I'd just as soon go with the 'limited batches' approach if there are enough Wolfen(or whatever) who don't subscribe to the general attitude that 'power armor are not our species' style) who want to take up training. However, given the specialized design of the Silverhawk, adapting the design to another physiology could be expensive. The CAF might not want to underwrite the cost of such a program, if the majority of Wolfen ain't going to touch the design('Hey, we're creatures of field and woods, not arboreal monkey boys who like dangling in midair') , and especially if the dissenting populations of Wolfen who want it are a minority and/or off on the fringes of CCW space.

However, I imagine that the companies producing Silverhawks, unless they're really species-centric, would LOVE to increase their production of Silverhawks if they could get contracts with assured payment. They might already have design studies in their R&D files and maybe even a few prototypes worked up just in case. And if any real demand or lucrative contracts appeared for Wolfen-adapted gear, Wolfen-owned companies like Wolfpack Armaments might protest the contracts going to non-Wolfen companies and launch their own R&D programs(If they didn't have their own design studies already on file), or demand that the production lines be transferred to their control/license, to 'ensure quality' if nothing else...and remember, some of those big corporations have MAJOR lobbying clout.

There's a lot of corporate-associated adventure hooks there if you don't want to make the Wolfen or other species homogeneous lock-step planet-of-hats style aliens. A Wolfen character who REALLY wants to break the mold and flying a Silverhawk-style uber-powerarmor might not necessarily be out of luck; he might hear of a prototype being tested somewhere and tries to track it down, volunteer to be part of the program, or steal it. Or, if he's got the money, the contacts, or the willingness to sell his soul, get something similar commissioned(at great expense).* Or maybe he already HAS a power armor, somehow, that could be used as a template for others to copy. making him the target of tech-thieves and industrial spies across the galactic arm.


*Remember, if there's enough money involved, and it doesn't break existing exclusivity clauses(or maybe even with enough money, those clauses can be waived) a corporation might just adapt an existing design or whip up an equivalent. But as with the example of the Invalian mentioned earlier, the cost for a single unit, or small batch run, might be much more than it would be worth, if you could buy several systems that could do many of the same jobs for the cost of a single power armor.
If there was a big enough demand and market, for example, Naruni would LOVE to produce something similar that would beat their competition to the punch and undercut them, or lure a niche market that promised enough profit, over to their side(and dependency on them).

[Vrykolas2k]

Where do you get the idea that a wolfen piloting power-armour is breaking his or her races mold?

[Axelmania]

1. CCW is founded by humans and noro so there is nothing in the text to say humans and not noro.

It is wrong to limit yourself to text, you need to consult the official illustrations chosen to depict the subject matter to get a complete picture of the game.

Long's illustration on pg 131 (as well as his cover painting for DB3) clearly show the Silverhawk to have 5 digits on the hand: 1 thumb and 4 fingers.

Noro have 6 digits: 1 thumb and 5 fingers, as we see on page 61/65 of WB2. So clearly their hands would not fit into the Silverhawk unless they are willing to lop off a finger. Humans and the similar Catyr are the obvious pilots of this PA.

2. Humans and noro are the largest part of the CCW but there is nothing to say they make up a majority of the CAF. Look at the race and gender stats for the US military, they do not match the population at large. With everything you have said yourself about the Wolfen they would be more likely to go for a military career than humans and definitely noro.

This sounds like saying humans/vulcans don't necessarily make up a big portion of Starfleet. Yeah it's not guaranteed, but it is pretty strongly implied, especially since what we've seen of formfitting PA resembling humans and not wulfen.

3. I guess you have never looked at the artwork for the Glitterboy, if you had you would have seen how a human pilot fits in. This is why the GB is so out of proportion with long lower legs and shorter arms. The human knee fits in the knee of the GB but his foot is nowhere near the foot of the GB. That is taken up by the anti-sway pilons. The Siverhawk in 9 feet tall but has regular proportions. There is no indication, and given the artwork no physical way, that the human foot would be anywhere other than the foot of the PA.

Plantar flexion can point the foot downward, that isn't a restriction if the leg of the PA is adequately thick.

This really makes me think that you are just arguing to argue since the GB is literally the worst counter example you could use and I already said above that on Rifts Earth I very specifically limit who can pilot PA because they are made specifically for humans, unless stated otherwise.

I have no idea where you are getting this from. I must have missed the part in PFRPG where the wolfen empire fights with slingshots and wooden clubs to give the other side a fighting chance.

The Silverhawk is a specialized stealth infiltration PA, it's not like there aren't superior things a Wolfen can pilot, and someone in heavy body armor can do plenty of damage.

The Wulfen are SDC creatures barely any stronger and not much tougher than humans in a dimension filled with MDC races this just seems over simplistic or making them Klingon-light.

They're plenty strong enough to wear the heavier body armor.

And traditional gear, you mean like swords? Does that mean that every pilot that wants to fly an F-22 has no honor because they want to fly the best fighter they can?

This very question is dishonoring the contributions of non-pilots.

This is cheap and trolling and it really makes me think that you are best reported or ignored than responded to.

I believe I misread this the first time around as "be the best fighter" not "fly the best fighter".

My analogy is more broadly: just because we have fighter jets does not mean someone wanting to contribute must aspire to pilot those if there are smaller people more suited to fitting inside those vehicles and you would be of more use lugging a rucksack on the ground.

Where do you get the idea that a wolfen piloting power-armour is breaking his or her races mold?

It's a possibility we haven't invalidated because we haven't seen any flying PA from them.

If you look at the stuff explicitly designed by them in the CAF repertoire, you have a massive tank and a massive carrier. That's the style they seem to favor. I think we'd sooner see a Silverhawk modified to be piloted by a T-Zee than one modified for a Wolfen.

[Vrykolas2k]

Why modify, when you can mass-produce for your military... of which the wolfen make a large percentage?
I fail to see the problem here.
If the TGE does it, why wouldn't the CCW?
Do you run the CCW kinda like the CS or something?

[dreicunan]

If we go by the official illustration, the Glitter Boy still only carries 100 rounds unless RUE got a stealth update. Since we all know that glitter boys use ammo drums made on Gallifrey, that means that the illustrations aren't actually "official."

[Axelmania]

Why modify, when you can mass-produce for your military... of which the wolfen make a large percentage?

Perhaps they're too big for the stealth/FFwreck to function? Or not enough are interested?

If the TGE does it, why wouldn't the CCW?

You're looking at entirely different tiers of power armor here.

Do you run the CCW kinda like the CS or something?

No, I don't think the CS is secretly run by Sahtalus.

[zexsis]

Why do you find the need to make height of character and height of power armor that important? Does it make the game more fun? Does it truly add something special or important to the game? If the race/character is under the height of the power armor what more do you really need? Dont make mountains out of mole hills.. focus on adventure and let players use stuff that suits their fancy as long as things dont explicitly say otherwise.

[Axelmania]

Envisioning a bunch of of humans piloting the silverhawks while the wolfen pilot tanks does seem more fun and special.

I don't really see why giving everyone a silverhawk would make it more adventurous.

If it doesn't seem realistic/believable then it's silly.

[taalismn]

As a digression, if anyone has any interest in sizing or fitting power armor in fiction here are a few useful resources. Robert Heinlein’s Starship Troopers (the book, not that pos movie series) and John Ringo’s Empire of Man series both mention the hours taken to fit a suit of armor to an operator, and the headache trying to adapt one pilot’s armor for someone else. Sure, anyone can wear a suit of power armor. That doesn’t mean I can wear your armor and you can wear mine, even if they are the same model of armor. Basically, unless you are Ironman and you are using nanites and the power of handwavium, fitting armor should be an involved process.

Edited to correct a spelling mistake.

So the real advancement wouldn't be a custom-fitted suit, but an automatic off-the-rack 'one size fits all' without noticeable reduction in performance.

[glitterboy2098]

Battletech actually tackled this with their elemental suits. In the novel Lost Destiny (part of the "Blood of kerensky" trilogy), Kai Allard Liao teams up with a unit of Clan Jade Falcon Elementals to take on a Comstar base (long story). The Elementals (genetically engineered soldiers of rather large size, about 8ft tall and equally as wide) use power armor in combat, and they had a spare suit so they refit it for Kai (who was 2well under 6ft tall and skinny) so he could help in the attack. they explained that the suits normally could adjust themselves to fit (exact method wasn't stated but presumably things like inflatable padding, and internal parts designed to shift position played a part), but they only worked for a specific range of sizes. in that case, people the size of Elementals. so they had to do some major alterations to the suit's interior to make it wearable. something that could be done in the field with basic tools, though it took a fair bit of time.

i think it is safe to say that Rifts PA are similar.. designed with adjustable joints and hand/foot grips and such so that you can adjust them to fit different body shapes with some basic tools, and inflatable padding that can be adjusted to handle precise fit. so that they can be made to fit most people within the average size range for adults humans. but if you are too far outside that range (obese, particularly tall or short, etc) you'd have to do major work to make it fit.

[taalismn]

but if you are too far outside that range (obese, particularly takke or short, etc) you'd have to do major work to make it fit.

"The good news is, I can fit you into the armor. The REALLY good news is that I have to punch you into the armor. Don't worry; this won't hurt...me...much."

[jtjr26]

My view on it is an advanced space faring empire (whatever they consider themselves) like the CCW with multiple species of different sizes would have a modular design to allow as many members species as possible to participate in the military at all levels. Also consider that right now on Earth not everyone can be a fighter pilot even assuming they have the aptitude and ability they have to fit in the machine. S0 the 5'3" human might be too small and and he 10'1" Seljuk it too large. That's not anyone being unfair, that's life in general.

[Warshield73]

My view on it is an advanced space faring empire (whatever they consider themselves) like the CCW with multiple species of different sizes would have a modular design to allow as many members species as possible to participate in the military at all levels. Also consider that right now on Earth not everyone can be a fighter pilot even assuming they have the aptitude and ability they have to fit in the machine. S0 the 5'3" human might be too small and and he 10'1" Seljuk it too large. That's not anyone being unfair, that's life in general.

I think this is almost certainly the case. The requirements for USN and USAF pilots is, I believe, is between 5'2 to 6'5 a 13 inch variation. I have to imagine high-tech space fighter would be more variable.

When we were playing RMB back in the day we came up with a basic rule for height and weight of PA pilots that only varied by about 6 inches. I still think that Rifts Earth power armor would be more size restrictive than stuff in the 3G but I have nothing in the books to base that on.

[Borast]

Here is the question I have always had, what is the minimum/maximum size of a pilot for armored vehicles, robot vehicles and space fighters? I have never had someone ask for a Seljuk to use a Silverhawk but can they fly Scorpion or Black Eagle Fighter? Can they be the weapons officer on a Battleram robot? I have always said yes but what have other people done.

This also goes to the births on Starships. If a ship can fit a noro or wolfen down its corridors and in its crew births then humans are going to find them beyond luxurious.

On topic - Remember, Military Hardware is not necessarily ... variable ...
Fighter jets are a perfect example. You have a minimum AND maximum height requirement. So, something designed for a pilot height range of 1.2 to 1.8m will NOT fit something standing 3+m tall! (Then there is the metre and a half long tail!)

In the commercial world, airline seats are an even better example. They were designed to accommodate something like 70% of the adult male population. If you are too far outside that range, it is either uncomfortably small, or uncomfortably large, way-to wide, or far too narrow.

Even with Military level budgets, you have a minimal range of variation in basic equipment/supplies.

If Humans are the predominant species, the majority of equipment will be sized for them. If the predominant species are Jotun, your equipment will be sized for them.


As for your aside...I think you mean "berths". And no... Oversized does not meal luxurious. Try sitting comfortably in a chair sized for someone 30 centimetres taller than you. Almost impossible to do. Now, if you spend the time, money and effort to retrofit...then maybe. After all, luxurious costs a LOT more!