Humans from Wormwood

[grimmhold]

3 quick questions. Humans from Wormwood are minor m.d.c. beings. Do they also regenerate faster than a normal human? Second, do they have supernatural strength? And third, do they have supernatural endurance? Thanks for your responses.

[Fell]

3 quick questions. Humans from Wormwood are minor m.d.c. beings. Do they also regenerate faster than a normal human? Second, do they have supernatural strength? And third, do they have supernatural endurance? Thanks for your responses.

Natives of Wormwood are mega-damage creatures, but human in every other way.

Page 45 Wormwood.

So no, no, and no.

[Cranus]

Amusingly enough, Wormwood human fist fights are basically tapping each other.

[Axelmania]

The default rate of healing for MDC creatures was 2D6 MDC per day, so yes they do heal faster. That's an average of 4. Even with proper medical care I think humans only heal 2 HP / 4 SDC per day, unless you're playing N&SS/TMNT where you heal SDC every hour.

[thorr-kan]

Amusingly enough, Wormwood human fist fights are basically tapping each other.

Actually...

http://palladiumbooks.com/background-and-settings

"10 In Wormwood since everyone is a Mega-damage being does that mean physical attacks cause no damage, ie. a punch or normal sword. This seems to imply that people of wormwood can beat each other up till the cows come home and only suffer fatigue from failing away at each other
Answer: Wormwoodians are mega-damage beings in reference to SDC objects from other dimensions. Swords and fists will inflict standard damage within their own dimension."

[RockJock]

So based on that a Wormwood human can beat a Wormwood human to death with an MDC Ironwood stick, but couldn't scratch a Vanguard Brawler with the same stick? For that matter, an Earth human could beat a Wormwood human to death with the same stick?

[thorr-kan]

I take it to mean SDC creatures do SDC damage, forex 1d4 for a punch. When wielding an SDC object they do SDC damage. When wielding an MDC object, they do not do MDC damage. ETA: Weapons explicitly doing MDC damage ate an exception,forex vibroblades or rune weapons.

MDC creatures do MDC damage, 1d4 MDC for a punch. No bonus damage, no supernatural PS.When wielding an MDC object, they do MDC damage. When wielding an SDC object, they do SDC damage.

[Braden Campbell]

Just run the whole setting in SDC. It works far better.

[RockJock]

Thorr-kan, the problem, at least for me is MDC guy does MDC damage and SDC guy does SDC damage takes SNPS/strength level out of the equation. What happens when your MDC Wormwood guy (remember, Woodwood guy has regular PS) punches an SDC guy? What happens when Wormwood guy punches MDC armor?

My earlier example with the Ironwood enchanted stick is a MDC item that does SDC with normal PS. You normally need higher level PS to do MDC with with an Ironwood item.

Thanks Braden, you have a point.

I remember years back we had a Woodwood character pop up and did something weird in our group using AR. As I recall we gave the WW guy super high levels of SDC(100 SDC for each of his MDC points), and a high AR(maybe 18?). That way two WW guys could kill each other, but it will take a LOOOOONG time.

[dreicunan]

Thorr-kan, the problem, at least for me is MDC guy does MDC damage and SDC guy does SDC damage takes SNPS/strength level out of the equation. What happens when your MDC Wormwood guy (remember, Woodwood guy has regular PS) punches an SDC guy? What happens when Wormwood guy punches MDC armor?

My earlier example with the Ironwood enchanted stick is a MDC item that does SDC with normal PS. You normally need higher level PS to do MDC with with an Ironwood item.

Thanks Braden, you have a point.

I remember years back we had a Woodwood character pop up and did something weird in our group using AR. As I recall we gave the WW guy super high levels of SDC(100 SDC for each of his MDC points), and a high AR(maybe 18?). That way two WW guys could kill each other, but it will take a LOOOOONG time.

That solution (just make all the mdc super high sdc with a high natural AR to beat) seems like a decent solution to all MDC. You could set a damage number (say 80) that bypasses the AR automatically.

I also have often thought that a damage threshold would have been a better solution for mdc.

[thorr-kan]

What happens when your MDC Wormwood guy (remember, Woodwood guy has regular PS) punches an SDC guy?

He does 1d4 MD. No strength bonus to damage.

What happens when Wormwood guy punches MDC armor?

He does 1d4 MD. No strength bonus to damage.

[RockJock]

MDC damage without enhanced strength just doesn't jive for me. If it works that way then a SDC human should be able to pick up and MDC stick and do MDC damage.

[dreicunan]

MDC damage without enhanced strength just doesn't jive for me. If it works that way then a SDC human should be able to pick up and MDC stick and do MDC damage.

Perhaps it would make more sense if you think of the wormwood humans as having been warped by the planet to be able to do mdc damage to mdc things. In other words, it works because magic.

[RockJock]

Like I said, we did it with the SDC/AR trick in my group. You can easily go with WW people doing MDC to everything magically, though I would just go ahead and give them some kind of enhanced PS/SNPS if I was going that route. That way WW people fit in with the rest of the Megaverse. You can just as easily go with the original, as written that WW humans can't really hurt each other via fistacuffs. You can still kill hurt somebody unarmed, but not as easily (sleeper hold for example). Or you can go with the Q&A answer.

I get that the Q&A says a punch from a WW guy or SDC sword does MDC damage in their dimension. It also opens up about as many problems as it solves because it only talking about the WW dimension. Will an SDC sword or punch damage a WW human on Rifts earth? Will a SDC M2 .50 Cal now do gigantic MDC in WW? To muddy things even more the book talks about the Apok doing MDC damage to supernatural baddies with SDC weapons, AND doing only SDC punch damage to mortals, which to me would include WW humans.

As long as your group plays Wormwoodians with some internal consistency it doesn't really matter which version you use. That's one of the advantages in PB games.

I have not gone back and reread Wordwood in ages, so I might be wrong, but I don't think there is any mention of SDC guns, but they do have magic TW flintlocks.

[Axelmania]

Is there really a problem if you allow MDC humans from wormwood to pummel each other forever without hurting each other?

[eliakon]

Is there really a problem if you allow MDC humans from wormwood to pummel each other forever without hurting each other?

Since that exact issue was one of the problems brought up by the people in this thread. And those posters presented it as being a problem from their view point/in their games...
The answer would be a pretty clear cut, slam dunk 100% no brainer "yes, yes it is"
You can qualify that with "for some games" but seriously... if someone posts a question about something that they see as a problem then yes there is a problem there from their point of view.
Especially if there are multiple posts that then follow on from other people about ways to solve said problem.

[Axelmania]

Since that exact issue was one of the problems brought up by the people in this thread.

Cranus brought it up first and merely called it amusing, not a problem.

Thorr-kan linked an amazing "backgrounds and settings" page I can't recall having seen before (which I overlooked completely, first time reading this thread) very pretty.

RockJock had questions about how to interpret it.

And those posters presented it as being a problem from their view point/in their games...

RockJock mentioned "the problem, at least for me is MDC guy does MDC damage and SDC guy does SDC damage takes SNPS/strength level out of the equation"

It sounds like he was calling the ruling at palladiumbooks.com/background-and-settings a problem, not the pre-errata offline RAW which didn't give any MD punches mundane Wormwoodians.

I agree with RJ and would also point out that it makes "Art of Defense" (pg 60) very strange since it only does 2D4/2D6 MD to "supernatural monsters" and does 3D6/5D6 SDC to "mortal creatures". As far as I know, Wormwoodians would still be mortal creatures...

This also makes Apoks a little bit less special, because aside from the doubling-benefit, a large benefit they have is converting SDC damage into MD. Why go to the trouble of pointing something out if it was only applicable off-planet? DB1 had symbiotes losing their powers immediately off-planet, which is still the case unless you have access to that special ritual from Firetown, far as I know.

if someone posts a question about something that they see as a problem then yes there is a problem there from their point of view.

OP grimmhold's questions didn't involve calling anything a problem.

if there are multiple posts that then follow on from other people about ways to solve said problem.

Solving the problem of the lack of MD punches, or solving the wording of their introduction in BAS10?

1. Wormwoodians are mega-damage beings in reference to SDC objects from other dimensions.
2. Swords and fists will inflict standard damage within their own dimension.

I'm very interested in discussing how to interpret that. MD beings are generally such in regard to SDC objects from any dimension (and in regard to MD objects too, for that matter...) so is it perhaps meant to imply they are not MD beings in reference to...

1) SDC objects from Wormwood's dimension
2) MDC objects from other dimensions

It's been a while since I checked the book, I'm trying to remember if there was even a universal statement about common weapons being MDC objects or inflicting MD. Page 42 describes hardened resin as being "as strong as steel" but I think steel can still be/inflict SDC.

Page 59 mentions "resin chain mail" having 20-40 MDC which is the first explicit reference I can find to resin being MDC.
Page 69 references "the lightest resin armor" offering 20 and "various types of light resin armor" providing 40 (other examples do not mention resin)
Page 118 mentions resin chain mail providing 40

Although there's higher MDC armor throughout the book, I didn't notice any which was explicitly "resin" so 40 seems to be the highest confirmed amount it can provide, chain mail being one of the "various types" which do so.

There could be plenty of explanations for how Wormwoodians enhance SDC-damag-inflicting resin weapons to inflict MD against monsters without needing special rules. Pg 50 mentions there are Temporal Wizards and "four spells of choice (any level)" so you could just say a couple selected the 15th level "Enchant Weapon (minor)" and they top them up every month or so once they revert to inflicting meager SDC.

This clearly isn't the case with some of them though, since we know EWM doubles the SDC damage and on 82 Dorsey Penecost has a broadsword with a "doubling crystal" (pg 109 is a stone, not a crystal...) that does 2d8/4d4 instead of the usual 1d8/2d4 that broadswords normally do.

In that case, maybe he just has a super-long-duration "Power Weapon" cast on his broadsword. There might be a diabolist-for-hire affixing permanence wards to swords to keep them enchanted with that, or a TTGD variation with higher-degree durations.

[RockJock]

To clarify my position I'm ok with WW humans being MDC beings with standard PS, and no ability to do MDC damage with their bare hands. They can still kill each other, but not easily. I'm just as happy with WW humans gaining something like Augmented PS or similar that lets them do low end MDC if they work at it(Power Punch etc). I do not like the Q&A version because it leaves too many unanswered questions based on different situations/combinations.

I'm good with any decision, just try to play it consistently.

[Riftmaker]

I'd make their strength be considered augmented so they can do MD on power punches.

[Axelmania]

Maybe there are some non-damage ways they could kill each other, such as strangulation or drowning?

[VIsgar]

Asphyxiation seems to be the way to go for Wormwood human vs human combat.

Starving people makes them weak or dead in weeks and denying water them makes them dead in days.

[Axelmania]

I remember hearing something about SDC weapons harming MDC creatures in Dinosaur Swamp but I can't remember where to look. Page 10 talks about hunting them... page 12 mentions "if the weapon at hand won't pierce the hide or skull, or do much damage, the eye is a perfectly viable target. Even if it doesn't pierce the brain cavity, the animal is blinded" but it's not very statistical... there's "could possibly do as much as triple damage" further down, but due to "would be considered Critical Strikes" I don't know if you could stack it with a natural 20.

[Fenris2020]

Is there really a problem if you allow MDC humans from wormwood to pummel each other forever without hurting each other?

I never had a problem with them still doing SDC damage without MDC weapons. They're just a lot tougher than regular humans.

[Axelmania]

Humans from Wormwood are minor m.d.c. beings.
Do they also regenerate faster than a normal human?

Rifts Conversion Book pg 21 (pg 56 of revised edition) under "Monster MDC Conversions"

Physical MDC is normalyl restored at a rate of 2D6 per day.

Despite the subjective 'monster' label, the paragraph this is in (including also a rule for dying if MDC is reduced to less than PE below zero) seems to be intended for all MDC creatures. It's the closest thing we have to a base rate for those without stated rates to replace (or supplement?) it.

That's an average of 7, a little better than the sum-6 of RUE 288's 2 HP/day 4 SDC/day for non-professional treatment, but a lil less than the sum-10 (4 HP and 6 SDC) you get from professional treatment (on days 3+... days 1 and 2 only do 2 HP/day like non-pros)

Of course... the weird way that works is there is no sum rate if you haven't lost any HP at all so if you haven't lost HP, you're only getting 4 or 6 SDC per day recovered. In which case 2D6 per day is on averaged better than both of them, but might be worse (2) or better (12) depending on the luck of your roll.

Natives of Wormwood are mega-damage creatures, but human in every other way.

Page 45 Wormwood.

So no, no, and no.

Well, perhaps a 'yes' on the first question. Healing 2 HP per day isn't of particular use to restoring MDC, unless that were somehow extrapolated to be 1 MDC per 50 days.

[hbrika]

I remember similar discussions in the early 90s about MDC. Not sure whether to be sad or laughing that it is still happening over 30 years later.

[Fenris2020]

I remember similar discussions in the early 90s about MDC. Not sure whether to be sad or laughing that it is still happening over 30 years later.

New board members happen, yes?

[hbrika]

My point was more along the lines that the systems could have been modified during that time so this was no longer an issue =)

And heck give me Mechanoid Space while we are at it (not a snark it would be a hoot to read it)

[Borast]

Personally, if I were GMing a Wormwood campaign, and two WW humans went at it, they would still be able to damage each other, but if they jumped almost any minor MDC creature from another setting, they would do no damage...unless the creature had SDC world normal strength like the WW humans.
If they were using resin weapons, they would do the weapon's damage as MDC.

[The Beast]

Just run the whole setting in SDC. It works far better.

That's true of all the settings.

[Axelmania]

I'd make their strength be considered augmented so they can do MD on power punches.

I like this idea but it would still limit the majority of the population.

Under the original CB rules augmented guys like juicers still needed a PS of 35 to do the 1MD power punch.

This was changed later (either RUE or RCB) to needing a PS of 24 for that 1 MD power punch, but that's still higher than what we'd expect a lot of humans to have.

Maybe we should just accept there's a large segment of the population just unable to hurt each other?

There's probably other situations where that applies (or at least applied prior to later stat upgrades). Fairy Folk come to mind.

Revised Conversion Book 114 gives them "tiny magic swords" that do a fixed 2 MD (no dice!) but page 102 of the original CB just said "tiny swords" doing "1 point of SDC damage" like the arrows...

Originally I can only find the Puck (pg 106, on a power punch) and Spriggan (pg 107, on normal punches/kicks, or a power punch / hurled boulder) having a note about doing MD, do I would assume all the other types couldn't inflict MD, so while faerie folk might hurt each other in SDC settings, they'd largely be unable to do so on Rifts Earth.

Exception: Nymphs can cast Call Lightning so I guess that's three who can hurt w/o weapons.

I guess per revised giving them 2MD sword attacks they can kill each other using those... actually taking a 2nd glance at the original CB, they had magically poisoned arrows/spears/short swords which could do 1D6 MD, but I'm not sure if that would involve some kind of savings throw? It doesn't mention one but that's usually how poisons work...

Pg 114-115 seems to have removed the poisoned swords/spears so there's just "Dragon Slayer" arrows but they do an impressive 4D6 MD and halve regen rates.