Extra Attack/Action per melee with Boxing

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's not a bonus; it's not added to a die roll.
It's simply an additional attack per melee.

A bonus is something you add, I don't think the term necessarily is exclusive to die-rolls, but may apply to static amounts. Or would we be unable to find a "bonus attack per melee" or similar wording somewhere?

In Palladium, attacks are attacks unless otherwise specified.

I think "hand to hand" is specific.

And sinse Ranged attacks are equal to hand to hand, any bonus to the latter is automatically a bonus to the former unless the bonus itself says otherwise.

[The Beast]

It's not a bonus; it's not added to a die roll.
It's simply an additional attack per melee.

A bonus is something you add, I don't think the term necessarily is exclusive to die-rolls, but may apply to static amounts. Or would we be unable to find a "bonus attack per melee" or similar wording somewhere?

In Palladium, attacks are attacks unless otherwise specified.

I think "hand to hand" is specific.

And sinse Ranged attacks are equal to hand to hand, any bonus to the latter is automatically a bonus to the former unless the bonus itself says otherwise.

Such as those instances when you get an additional attack from a tail swipe.

[Axelmania]

sinse Ranged attacks are equal to hand to hand, any bonus to the latter is automatically a bonus to the former unless the bonus itself says otherwise.

Do we see "equal to hand to hand" explicitly as an overall ruling, or only in certain examples?

Such as those instances when you get an additional attack from a tail swipe.

Depends on the wording. Something like "tail gives an extra attack" doesn't explicitly say in any way you need to make the attack WITH the tail, you could do an extra punch or gunshot unless it explicitly says "the attack must be with the tail", no?

It's a RAW v. logical-concept thing, like when Extra Arms gives bonus attacks, one would assume "well, I ought to use that arm at least once" but unless it explicitly SAYS that, you might just throw 6 kicks instead of 4 kicks.

[Nekira Sudacne]

sinse Ranged attacks are equal to hand to hand, any bonus to the latter is automatically a bonus to the former unless the bonus itself says otherwise.

Do we see "equal to hand to hand" explicitly as an overall ruling, or only in certain examples?

Page 37 Rifts Main book: A reminder: All player characters start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing"

So right from Day 1, the attack per melee from boxing is put in the same basket as those gained from hand to hand combat, useable for any action, not just hand to hand.

[Axelmania]

It appears you're reading the "psychic combat" section, I don't know that this would necessarily pertain to ANY action, it's clearly specific to psychic ones.

It appears to resemble pg 34's right column "NATURAL ENERGY BLASTS" which mentions "can use their energy attack as often as their combined hand to hand attacks".

34's left says "if a character has four attacks per melee he/she can shoot FOUR aimed shots". The question is if this only refers to "attacks" (unmodified) or if it includes context-specific attacks, for example "attacks with a gun" or "hand to hand attacks".

The best example of "melee attacks" looseness is probably the combat example on 43 where i mentions the bandit SAMAS having "four (4) melee attacks" then on the first attack, opening up with a rail gun burst (clearly not "melee").

So I agree there's some day-1 intent, but RUE has deviated from RMB's origins/intents so we should be able to re-establish it using RUE's new arrangement.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nothing indicates RUE diverged in this regard, so there's no reason to assume it needs to be re-established.

[eliakon]

It is even more simple than this.
There is simply no source of APM besides your H2H skill.
No, seriously go ahead and tell me what a characters number of attacks are with out referencing their H2H skill

[Axelmania]

Nothing indicates RUE diverged in this regard, so there's no reason to assume it needs to be re-established.

You mean like with mass-drawing PPE from unknowing targets, or getting damage multipliers to magic spells from ley lines?

It is even more simple than this.
There is simply no source of APM besides your H2H skill.
No, seriously go ahead and tell me what a characters number of attacks are with out referencing their H2H skill

RUE 316 "No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" it actually sounds like they get a +1 to dodge at 1st level, making them BRIEFLY BETTER than the 3 usual (basic/expert/MA) HTHs (and Commando) which have to wait until 2nd level to get a dodge bonus.

RUE 347's "Characters with No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" differs on this, and doesn't give the +1 to dodge until 3rd level. This is still briefly better than Assassin which doesn't get a dodge bonus until 6th level. It's still perhaps an overall a better option due to the added "non-combat melee actions" (which RUE316 doesn't mention) although I guess that depends on what you could use them for... dodging isn't explicitly one of the examples, but I recall the Seleniak had a similar attacks/actions split in Skraypers and they could use their non-attack actions for dodging, so it wouldn't be a big stretch IMO...

I mean you can use it for "running" or "operating a machine" or "driving" (because we totally have a clear idea of how to do those on a per-action basis) and I could see those three possibly including the concept of evading attacks.

Would it be supremely horrible to rely on the "No Hand to Hand" baseline number of attacks when shooting guns?

I'd say the RUE version of HTH Assassin might be a logical exception since at 11th level it gives a bonus to strike with guns... unless of course that's meant to refer to pistol-whipping rather than gunSHOTS (which I could also believe)

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not a bonus; it's not added to a die roll.
It's simply an additional attack per melee.

A bonus is something you add, I don't think the term necessarily is exclusive to die-rolls, but may apply to static amounts. Or would we be unable to find a "bonus attack per melee" or similar wording somewhere?

In Palladium, attacks are attacks unless otherwise specified.

I think "hand to hand" is specific.

And sinse Ranged attacks are equal to hand to hand, any bonus to the latter is automatically a bonus to the former unless the bonus itself says otherwise.

Exactly.

Although very few places specify "hand to hand attacks" in the first place.
What's specified is that "Hand to Hand" skills give you "attacks," just like Boxing, being a Juicer, having a tail (sometimes), etc.

[jaymz]

It never ceases to amaze me how certain individuals on these forums can be so deliberately obtuse. I assume deliberately obtuse because to think otherwise would be putting them quite low on the scale of intelligence and make me wonder how they can function on a daily basis.

As has been said multiple times, unless specified (like from a tail thus that is a tail attack) attacks are general including from boxing thus by design and explanation can and must be used for both melee AND ranged attacks. This is not that fracking hard to understand.

Warning: Insults. Mack.

[eliakon]

Nothing indicates RUE diverged in this regard, so there's no reason to assume it needs to be re-established.

You mean like with mass-drawing PPE from unknowing targets, or getting damage multipliers to magic spells from ley lines?

It is even more simple than this.
There is simply no source of APM besides your H2H skill.
No, seriously go ahead and tell me what a characters number of attacks are with out referencing their H2H skill

Spoiler:

RUE 316 "No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" it actually sounds like they get a +1 to dodge at 1st level, making them BRIEFLY BETTER than the 3 usual (basic/expert/MA) HTHs (and Commando) which have to wait until 2nd level to get a dodge bonus.

RUE 347's "Characters with No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" differs on this, and doesn't give the +1 to dodge until 3rd level. This is still briefly better than Assassin which doesn't get a dodge bonus until 6th level. It's still perhaps an overall a better option due to the added "non-combat melee actions" (which RUE316 doesn't mention) although I guess that depends on what you could use them for... dodging isn't explicitly one of the examples, but I recall the Seleniak had a similar attacks/actions split in Skraypers and they could use their non-attack actions for dodging, so it wouldn't be a big stretch IMO...

I mean you can use it for "running" or "operating a machine" or "driving" (because we totally have a clear idea of how to do those on a per-action basis) and I could see those three possibly including the concept of evading attacks.

Would it be supremely horrible to rely on the "No Hand to Hand" baseline number of attacks when shooting guns?

I'd say the RUE version of HTH Assassin might be a logical exception since at 11th level it gives a bonus to strike with guns... unless of course that's meant to refer to pistol-whipping rather than gunSHOTS (which I could also believe)

And you are still not doing what I ask
You are USING THEIR HAND TO HAND SKILL (or lack of it specificall H2H: None) to calculate their APM
You have to do this totally independent of their H2H skill
so... point to me?
Care to try again?

[Axelmania]

very few places specify "hand to hand attacks" in the first place.
What's specified is that "Hand to Hand" skills give you "attacks," just like Boxing, being a Juicer, having a tail (sometimes), etc.

In eponymous relation to you, RUE51 "Bionic Weapons & Tools" under "Additional Hand and Arm" mentions "a pair of arms and hands add one attack per melee", which of must be very helpful for a Mystic or Mind Melter who wants to throw an extra Mind Bolt per melee.

unless specified (like from a tail thus that is a tail attack) attacks are general including from boxing thus by design and explanation can and must be used for both melee AND ranged attacks.

The specifics in question are not found in the origin of the added attacks, but in the rules for ranged combat themselves.

As I think has already been referenced, RUE 328 under "Modern Weapons" says:

Hand to Hand Combat bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons

RUE 347 clearly defines the HTH skills:

These are the standard level by level tables that present the accumulative bonuses offered by the common forms of hand to hand fighting in the Rifts setting.

When characters advance a level, the player can come to this section to see what new bonuses apply to the character.

An example of such a bonus would obviously be RUE 348 2nd level Assassin:

+2 additional attacks/actions per melee round

If there's anything to quibble about, I think it would be whether or not the the 1st-level "starts with" assignments count as bonuses or not. Relative to 1 attack, they seem like it.

And you are still not doing what I ask
You are USING THEIR HAND TO HAND SKILL (or lack of it specificall H2H: None) to calculate their APM

"Characters with No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" is not a hand to hand combat skill, you are wrong about that.

Aside from that, some races/monsters have in the past occasionally list some basic number of attacks.

You have to do this totally independent of their H2H skill
so... point to me?
Care to try again?

You have a vivid imagination.

[Killer Cyborg]

very few places specify "hand to hand attacks" in the first place.
What's specified is that "Hand to Hand" skills give you "attacks," just like Boxing, being a Juicer, having a tail (sometimes), etc.

In eponymous relation to you, RUE51 "Bionic Weapons & Tools" under "Additional Hand and Arm" mentions "a pair of arms and hands add one attack per melee", which of must be very helpful for a Mystic or Mind Melter who wants to throw an extra Mind Bolt per melee.

Yes.
Now you're catching on.
That's simply how Palladium works.

unless specified (like from a tail thus that is a tail attack) attacks are general including from boxing thus by design and explanation can and must be used for both melee AND ranged attacks.

The specifics in question are not found in the origin of the added attacks, but in the rules for ranged combat themselves.

As I think has already been referenced, RUE 328 under "Modern Weapons" says:

Hand to Hand Combat bonuses do NOT apply to modern weapons

RUE 347 clearly defines the HTH skills:

These are the standard level by level tables that present the accumulative bonuses offered by the common forms of hand to hand fighting in the Rifts setting.

When characters advance a level, the player can come to this section to see what new bonuses apply to the character.

An example of such a bonus would obviously be RUE 348 2nd level Assassin:

+2 additional attacks/actions per melee round

/quote]

Referring to HTH bonuses does NOT mean that the only thing that HTH refers to is bonuses.
Try again.

And you are still not doing what I ask
You are USING THEIR HAND TO HAND SKILL (or lack of it specificall H2H: None) to calculate their APM

"Characters with No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" is not a hand to hand combat skill, you are wrong about that.

Aside from that, some races/monsters have in the past occasionally list some basic number of attacks.

Yes.
They have a basic number of "attacks," NOT a basic number of "HTH attacks."
That's because HTH attacks aren't really a thing.
It's just "attacks."

[eliakon]

And you are still not doing what I ask
You are USING THEIR HAND TO HAND SKILL (or lack of it specificall H2H: None) to calculate their APM

"Characters with No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" is not a hand to hand combat skill, you are wrong about that.

Really?
So how is it not RELATED TO THEY H2H skill if it is explicitly defined by what they have (none)
Heck, it is even listed in the book under Hand to Hand combat skills

But the main point is that there is no way to calculate a characters APM with out referring to their H2H.
Period.
You can try and weasel word it all you want... but if you have to clarify if they have H2H or not you are referring to their H2H.

Aside from that, some races/monsters have in the past occasionally list some basic number of attacks.

The number of attacks of animals is not really germane to the subject here now is it.

You have to do this totally independent of their H2H skill
so... point to me?
Care to try again?

You have a vivid imagination.

Really? I ask you to try and define the number of APM with out refering to their H2H skill.
All you could do is then say "well going by their H2H skill..."
You are showing exactly what I claimed.

For you to be right you have to be able to show that it is possible to calculate the number of APM with out referring to in any way the H2H skill. Aka the APM number must be totally independent of the H2H skill.
And so far you have been totally unable to do that.
I am pretty sure it is impossible to do (other than using animals or robots or the like...non of whom can take boxing and shoot guns)

[Axelmania]

Yes.
Now you're catching on.
That's simply how Palladium works.

It's how psionics work, since they are not modern weapons and so have no prohibition against using HTH bonuses.

Yes.
They have a basic number of "attacks," NOT a basic number of "HTH attacks."
That's because HTH attacks aren't really a thing.
It's just "attacks."

That depends on the creature. Page 9 of Dark Conversions mentions "attacks per melee by hand to hand and/or psionics" for the alien intelligence template for example. Using guns would not fall under either of those labels.

how is it not RELATED TO THEY H2H skill if it is explicitly defined by what they have (none)

You originally said "There is simply no source of APM besides your H2H skill."

If you are going to move the goalposts to "related to" so as to include NO hand to hand combat skill, I don't think this relates to my earlier disagreement with you.

Heck, it is even listed in the book under Hand to Hand combat skills

Yes and RUE 289 "Determine Psionics" includes a "Not psychic" note, and RUE 328 "WP Modern Weapons" includes a "No Weapon Proficiency" note.

Those things don't come from being psychic or having a proficiency, they're a discussion of when you do not have them.

But the main point is that there is no way to calculate a characters APM with out referring to their H2H.
Period.

Yes there is, because "no hand to hand skill" is not referring to THEIR hand to hand skill, but rather their lack of one, ie the default rules on how many attacks/actions people have.

You can try and weasel word it all you want... but if you have to clarify if they have H2H or not you are referring to their H2H.

In the sense that if a character/race lists "magic: none" you are referring to their magical abilities, so I should be able to say something like "there is no way to calculate someone's PPE without referring to their magical OCC" ? Default APM are simply like default PPE.

The number of attacks of animals is not really germane to the subject here now is it.

I didn't say animals, I said races/monsters. But even animals apply if you want to make non-specific rulings.

I ask you to try and define the number of APM with out refering to their H2H skill.
All you could do is then say "well going by their H2H skill..."
You are showing exactly what I claimed.

What you have said here is 100% false.

RUE347 despite being a section called "Hand to Hand Combat Skills" is not intended to classify "Characters with No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" as the name of a hand to hand combat skill. I believe Siembieda ITALICIZED the word "No" for a reason.

For you to be right you have to be able to show that it is possible to calculate the number of APM with out referring to in any way the H2H skill. Aka the APM number must be totally independent of the H2H skill.

The CwNHtHCS rule is not a skill.

And so far you have been totally unable to do that.
I am pretty sure it is impossible to do (other than using animals or robots or the like...non of whom can take boxing and shoot guns)

Bots can't shoot guns?

What about chimps?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes.
Now you're catching on.
That's simply how Palladium works.

It's how psionics work, since they are not modern weapons and so have no prohibition against using HTH bonuses.

Tell you what,
if you can find a single NPC, monster, or other officially statted character,
who has "attacks" listed as separate from "Hand to Hand Attacks" and/or "Ranged Attacks,"
then let me know where you found it.

Otherwise, you've got nothing.
Give up the ghost.

That depends on the creature. Page 9 of Dark Conversions mentions "attacks per melee by hand to hand and/or psionics" for the alien intelligence template for example. Using guns would not fall under either of those labels.

Except that the rate of fire for guns is "equal to the number of hand to hand attacks," or is otherwise determined by the number of attacks per melee a character has.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This is being argued, just to argue guys. Stop feeding into it.

[Axelmania]

if you can find a single NPC, monster, or other officially statted character,
who has "attacks" listed as separate from "Hand to Hand Attacks" and/or "Ranged Attacks,"
then let me know where you found it.

You're moving the goalposts too, reread what you had said earlier:

very few places specify "hand to hand attacks" in the first place.

In fact many places do. For example, I'm looking through Rifts Africa (WB4) just now

p 61 Phoenixi "expert averaging three to five hand to hand or psionic attacks"
p 62 Ramen "Martial arts and boxing, averaging four to six hand to hand melee round attacks
p 64 Tautons "Martial arts and boxing, averaging four to six (plus tail strike) hand to hand melee round attacks"

It would take up much less space to write just "attacks" instead of "hand to hand attacks", Occam's Razor is that this important adjective recurs for a purpose.

the rate of fire for guns is "equal to the number of hand to hand attacks," or is otherwise determined by the number of attacks per melee a character has.

Which guns are you talking about?

RUE 257 for example says "each blast counts as one melee attack". I interpret "melee attack" as simply short for "melee round attack", as in an amount of attacks you can perform within a melee round.

The term "hand to hand" is not used here. Which guns use it? They could be special cases.

How many "hand to hand attacks" and how many "attacks" you have can be different things.

This is being argued, just to argue guys. Stop feeding into it.

You're wrong, this is a valid idea to explore and I do not argue just to argue. Please stop making personal attacks. It seems people are wanting to overlook the carefully placed phrase "hand to hand" descriptor of attacks, and the rule against adding HTH bonuses to ranged weapons.

[Mack]

It seems people are wanting to overlook the carefully placed phrase "hand to hand" descriptor of attacks, and the rule against adding HTH bonuses to ranged weapons.

PB doesn't use "carefully placed" language.

[Axelmania]

If taking the approach of not following carefully-placed RAW and instead doing "follow your heart" type thinking, it still seems okay to not have HTH increase your gunfire rate.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually he simply said Palladium doesn't have Carefully-placed RAW.

[Killer Cyborg]

if you can find a single NPC, monster, or other officially statted character,
who has "attacks" listed as separate from "Hand to Hand Attacks" and/or "Ranged Attacks,"
then let me know where you found it.

You're moving the goalposts too, reread what you had said earlier

You change your story, you change the game, and the goalposts move.

very few places specify "hand to hand attacks" in the first place.

In fact many places do. For example, I'm looking through Rifts Africa (WB4) just now

p 61 Phoenixi "expert averaging three to five hand to hand or psionic attacks"
p 62 Ramen "Martial arts and boxing, averaging four to six hand to hand melee round attacks
p 64 Tautons "Martial arts and boxing, averaging four to six (plus tail strike) hand to hand melee round attacks"

I don't consider "three" to be many.
Also, what's the exact context of those quotes?

It would take up much less space to write just "attacks" instead of "hand to hand attacks", Occam's Razor is that this important adjective recurs for a purpose.

By that logic, there's a distinction between "hand to hand attacks" and "hand to hand melee round attacks," otherwise they'd have used the same phrasing.

Occam's Razor, btw, is "entities should not be multiplied without necessity," and yet here you are, unnecessarily multiplying "attacks" into hand to hand attacks, ranged attacks, psionic attacks, and so forth.

the rate of fire for guns is "equal to the number of hand to hand attacks," or is otherwise determined by the number of attacks per melee a character has.

Which guns are you talking about?

All guns that list that as their Rate of Fire, for starts.
Explain how THOSE guns work in your mind, if ranged attacks are secretly somehow separate from HTH attacks.
Then explain how other guns with other ROFs work, if they're not also based on HTH attacks.

RUE 257 for example says "each blast counts as one melee attack". I interpret "melee attack" as simply short for "melee round attack", as in an amount of attacks you can perform within a melee round.

Occam's Razor again: you're needlessly adding words that aren't there.

How many "hand to hand attacks" and how many "attacks" you have can be different things.

Restating your claim is not demonstrating your claim.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems people are wanting to overlook the carefully placed phrase "hand to hand" descriptor of attacks, and the rule against adding HTH bonuses to ranged weapons.

PB doesn't use "carefully placed" language.

Yup. That pretty much sums it up.

[Axelmania]

I don't consider "three" to be many.
Also, what's the exact context of those quotes?

They're examples, not a totality. Not sure what you mean about context, it's under the races.

By that logic, there's a distinction between "hand to hand attacks" and "hand to hand melee round attacks," otherwise they'd have used the same phrasing.

If you can define 'attacks' outside of melee rounds, sure.

"Hand to hand or psychic" are clearly descriptors of specific kinds of attacks. So is "magic". These prefixed phrases have a clearer distinction.

Occam's Razor, btw, is "entities should not be multiplied without necessity," and yet here you are, unnecessarily multiplying "attacks" into hand to hand attacks, ranged attacks, psionic attacks, and so forth.

The necessity is not my invention, it comes from the books. WB3 Ogeeyin for example: "two physical, magic or psionic attacks" on 143, but Guardian Form on 144 "five hand to hand or psionic attacks per melee round. Or two magic attacks".

All guns that list that as their Rate of Fire, for starts.
Explain how THOSE guns work in your mind, if ranged attacks are secretly somehow separate from HTH attacks.

Are any of those post-RUE?

When we're explicitly told a gun can utilize things from hand to hand skills like attacks or strike bonuses, I suppose that would override the embargo on bonus transfer.

Then explain how other guns with other ROFs work, if they're not also based on HTH attacks.

Non-HTH attacks. The ones you get absent a HTH skill.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't consider "three" to be many.
Also, what's the exact context of those quotes?

They're examples, not a totality. Not sure what you mean about context, it's under the races.

Under what section? "Number of Attacks"?
Or what?

By that logic, there's a distinction between "hand to hand attacks" and "hand to hand melee round attacks," otherwise they'd have used the same phrasing.

If you can define 'attacks' outside of melee rounds, sure.

Why couldn't you?

"Hand to hand or psychic" are clearly descriptors of specific kinds of attacks. So is "magic". These prefixed phrases have a clearer distinction.

See... that's where we run into an issue of language.
You can attack somebody with Hand to Hand, and that's a Hand to Hand attack.
You can attack somebody psychically, and that's a Psychic Attack.
You can attack somebody with magic, and that's a Magic Attack.

But none of that necessarily means that those are each separate kinds of "Attacks per melee," only that they are separate things that you can DO with your "attacks per melee."

Occam's Razor, btw, is "entities should not be multiplied without necessity," and yet here you are, unnecessarily multiplying "attacks" into hand to hand attacks, ranged attacks, psionic attacks, and so forth.

The necessity is not my invention, it comes from the books. WB3 Ogeeyin for example: "two physical, magic or psionic attacks" on 143, but Guardian Form on 144 "five hand to hand or psionic attacks per melee round. Or two magic attacks".

The necessity is your invention; you're projecting it onto the books.

All guns that list that as their Rate of Fire, for starts.
Explain how THOSE guns work in your mind, if ranged attacks are secretly somehow separate from HTH attacks.

Are any of those post-RUE?

Can't really say; I'm still away from my books.
You'll have to look stuff up yourself for a while.

Then explain how other guns with other ROFs work, if they're not also based on HTH attacks.

Non-HTH attacks. The ones you get absent a HTH skill.

I think you're confusing "hand to hand attacks" with "attacks granted to you by a Hand to Hand Combat Skill."
This may be the root of the issue.

[wizardofthenorth]

Does Palladium enjoy watching these kinds of arguments? Is it really that hard for them to create an official errata that clarifies poorly written rules like this? Or even have Alex pop in and say.."hey guys, from up top, rule xyz should be interpreted thus...".

[Nekira Sudacne]

Does Palladium enjoy watching these kinds of arguments? Is it really that hard for them to create an official errata that clarifies poorly written rules like this? Or even have Alex pop in and say.."hey guys, from up top, rule xyz should be interpreted thus...".

Only one time has a debate on this forum gotten to the point that Palladium stepped in to clairfy offically, and that was 2000 pages long.

[Daniel Stoker]

Good times... good times.


Daniel Stoker

[dreicunan]

Does Palladium enjoy watching these kinds of arguments? Is it really that hard for them to create an official errata that clarifies poorly written rules like this? Or even have Alex pop in and say.."hey guys, from up top, rule xyz should be interpreted thus...".

Only one time has a debate on this forum gotten to the point that Palladium stepped in to clairfy offically, and that was 2000 pages long.

I'm blanking. What was that one about?

[eliakon]

Does Palladium enjoy watching these kinds of arguments? Is it really that hard for them to create an official errata that clarifies poorly written rules like this? Or even have Alex pop in and say.."hey guys, from up top, rule xyz should be interpreted thus...".

Only one time has a debate on this forum gotten to the point that Palladium stepped in to clairfy offically, and that was 2000 pages long.

I'm blanking. What was that one about?

The infamous teleport thread

[Nekira Sudacne]

Does Palladium enjoy watching these kinds of arguments? Is it really that hard for them to create an official errata that clarifies poorly written rules like this? Or even have Alex pop in and say.."hey guys, from up top, rule xyz should be interpreted thus...".

Only one time has a debate on this forum gotten to the point that Palladium stepped in to clairfy offically, and that was 2000 pages long.

I'm blanking. What was that one about?

Can you teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle? (yes, as it turned out)

[Killer Cyborg]

Does Palladium enjoy watching these kinds of arguments? Is it really that hard for them to create an official errata that clarifies poorly written rules like this? Or even have Alex pop in and say.."hey guys, from up top, rule xyz should be interpreted thus...".

Only one time has a debate on this forum gotten to the point that Palladium stepped in to clairfy offically, and that was 2000 pages long.

I'm blanking. What was that one about?

Can you teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle? (yes, as it turned out)

Yes indeed!

[Axelmania]

See... that's where we run into an issue of language.
You can attack somebody with Hand to Hand, and that's a Hand to Hand attack.
You can attack somebody psychically, and that's a Psychic Attack.
You can attack somebody with magic, and that's a Magic Attack.

But none of that necessarily means that those are each separate kinds of "Attacks per melee," only that they are separate things that you can DO with your "attacks per melee."

Why they are separate kinds is because they are often assigned different numbers.

Katrina Sun for example (WB4: Africa pg 146)

Attacks Per Melee Round:
Four hand to hand actions
or five attacks with a longbow.
Or two spell attacks.

The gaping hole is of course that we aren't told how many attacks she would have when using her CS plasma rifle or Wikl's laser pistol.

I think you're confusing "hand to hand attacks" with "attacks granted to you by a Hand to Hand Combat Skill."
This may be the root of the issue.

I had considered that possible shorthand, but what about that phrase being used to describe a collective total with boxing / power armor / OCC bonus?

Can you teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle? (yes, as it turned out)

Yes indeed!

Is that still up somewhere or is it lost to the constant thread-culling that happens? Since I was actually wondering about that in another thread recently.

[Killer Cyborg]

See... that's where we run into an issue of language.
You can attack somebody with Hand to Hand, and that's a Hand to Hand attack.
You can attack somebody psychically, and that's a Psychic Attack.
You can attack somebody with magic, and that's a Magic Attack.

But none of that necessarily means that those are each separate kinds of "Attacks per melee," only that they are separate things that you can DO with your "attacks per melee."

Why they are separate kinds is because they are often assigned different numbers.

Katrina Sun for example (WB4: Africa pg 146)

Attacks Per Melee Round:
Four hand to hand actions
or five attacks with a longbow.
Or two spell attacks.

The gaping hole is of course that we aren't told how many attacks she would have when using her CS plasma rifle or Wikl's laser pistol.

It's not a gaping hole. Those weapons use the attacks granted by her hand to hand combat skill.
The longbow doesn't, so it's listed because it's an exception to the rule.
Spells don't, so they're listed because they're an exception to the rule.
Guns aren't an exception, so there's no need to list them.

I think you're confusing "hand to hand attacks" with "attacks granted to you by a Hand to Hand Combat Skill."
This may be the root of the issue.

I had considered that possible shorthand, but what about that phrase being used to describe a collective total with boxing / power armor / OCC bonus?

Got a direct quote?

Can you teleport into an environmentally sealed vehicle? (yes, as it turned out)

Yes indeed!

Is that still up somewhere or is it lost to the constant thread-culling that happens? Since I was actually wondering about that in another thread recently.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24975

[Devjannz]

The way I see it is that Boxing is not just a physical skill of hitting someone, but it trains your mind to act and react more quickly and that translates into the extra attack per round. Attacks per round are a measure of how quickly your character can react in a combat situation, not just physically but mentally as well.

[Axelmania]

The way I see it is that Boxing is not just a physical skill of hitting someone, but it trains your mind to act and react more quickly and that translates into the extra attack per round. Attacks per round are a measure of how quickly your character can react in a combat situation, not just physically but mentally as well.

From this approach, it also trains your mind to knock people out, also allowing you to do so better whether you're kicking them, throwing rocks at them, or shooting them.

I mean heck: the natural 20 knockout should even apply if you're doing a melee called shot to someone's leg, no?

Common sense might dictate that perhaps natural 20 knockouts shold only apply when targetting the head at -3 as Sourcebook 1 suggested.

[Devjannz]

The way I see it is that Boxing is not just a physical skill of hitting someone, but it trains your mind to act and react more quickly and that translates into the extra attack per round. Attacks per round are a measure of how quickly your character can react in a combat situation, not just physically but mentally as well.

From this approach, it also trains your mind to knock people out, also allowing you to do so better whether you're kicking them, throwing rocks at them, or shooting them.

I mean heck: the natural 20 knockout should even apply if you're doing a melee called shot to someone's leg, no?

Common sense might dictate that perhaps natural 20 knockouts shold only apply when targetting the head at -3 as Sourcebook 1 suggested.

Not sure where you get that but I do not see it as giving you the ability to do knock someone out by hitting them in the leg or something like that. I have always taken it that when you knock someone out on a Nat 20, you did a follow up punch to the head and knocked them out. I guess you could also say that when you hit someone with a Nat 20 that it causes enough system shock to render them unconscious. Either way, I still stand by my statement that Attacks per Round are a representation of how quickly your character reacts both physically and mentally and that Boxing just helps you improve that reaction time.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's more of a system shock thing.

I've seen it happen. yes. In the leg. Once in Isshin-Ryu, one of our senseis was sparring with the Taekwondo teacher from across town. it started out friendly but the Taekwondo guy kept pulling shady stuff. "Accidently' kicking towards the knee (our sensei had a bad knee) 'accidently' kicking towards the groin etc and going a bit 'too hard' for a friendly sparring match.

Over a couple of minutes it kept gearing up and he then really caught our sensei in the groin. And laughed about it to the tune of 'You should guard better. On the street they won't avoid your balls"

our sensei nodded. They went back to the line and our sensei kicked the guy in the upper thigh. HARD. I mean. I was watching and I jumped. The guy went down like a bag of bricks. Strike was no where near his head. it was right in the middle of the thigh and he blacked out for about 30 seconds. Just SLAM --out-- like a light switch.

Now.... I'm not saying that's what is envisioned in palladium. But it -can- happen.

Movies and TV shows hype up "knocking someone out" by a punch or sharp blow to the head. In reality you're much more likely to hospitalize or even kill someone wacking them in the head TRYING to knock them out, than just knock them out with one hit.

But that said yes, if you get hit right, or hard enough some where OTHER than the head, it can knock you out too.

[Axelmania]

Not sure where you get that but I do not see it as giving you the ability to do knock someone out by hitting them in the leg or something like that. I have always taken it that when you knock someone out on a Nat 20, you did a follow up punch to the head and knocked them out.

Well if it's a follow-up punch then it should definitely apply if you're shooting someone at close range, and even apply as a 'free knockout punch' if you spent the melee action dodging.

Either way, I still stand by my statement that Attacks per Round are a representation of how quickly your character reacts both physically and mentally and that Boxing just helps you improve that reaction time.

Follow-up exploratory: you get bonus attacks from Robot Pilot Elite, yes?

Does this also give you extra psychic attacks per melee?

[dreicunan]

Not sure where you get that but I do not see it as giving you the ability to do knock someone out by hitting them in the leg or something like that. I have always taken it that when you knock someone out on a Nat 20, you did a follow up punch to the head and knocked them out.

Well if it's a follow-up punch then it should definitely apply if you're shooting someone at close range, and even apply as a 'free knockout punch' if you spent the melee action dodging.

Either way, I still stand by my statement that Attacks per Round are a representation of how quickly your character reacts both physically and mentally and that Boxing just helps you improve that reaction time.

Follow-up exploratory: you get bonus attacks from Robot Pilot Elite, yes?

Does this also give you extra psychic attacks per melee?

I suppose that RAW it would (unless someone remembers a rule that I'm not). Have fun mind-bolting your control panel!

[Killer Cyborg]

you get bonus attacks from Robot Pilot Elite, yes?

Does this also give you extra psychic attacks per melee?

Yes.
Attacks are attacks, unless otherwise specified.
If you have a tail that gives you an extra attack, for example, if it says "+1 attack," that's just +1 attack that can be used for anything that attacks could be normally used for: punching, shooting, tail swipe, running, psychic powers, low-level spells, etc.

If the text states that you get "+1 attack with the tail" or something like, that, only then is the attack limited to just the tail.

It's like this with everything: attacks are attacks, unless they're specifically stated to be limited.