Traps, triggers, perception and random luck

[PalladiumBrony]

OK, been thinking about traps a lot lately, and I had some thoughts I wondered if I could run by some unbiased eyes.

Missing trap triggers by chance

What would you guys consider a reasonable way to handle the random circumstance that a PC just... doesn't set off a trap? I don't mean they pass a Perception (incidentally, does "hard" sound about right for the perception check needed to spot a trap for which you are not specifically looking?) or Detect trap check and deliberately avoiding it, I mean just failing to set the trap off by complete blind luck. Like, by some complete fluke of chance they manage to step over the tripwire, or fail to step on the specific tile needed to set it off? I initially thought a D20 roll by the GM might work, roll 10 or less and the trap goes off, allowing for positive modifiers like Physical Prowess, and maybe the trigger needs some kind of minimum weight, which the character might not meet. Is this even necessary, or is it getting a bit too granular? If it came up, my plan would be, as the GM, to just roll without telling the players why - if they never set off a trap they don't even need to know it's there.

Avoiding damage from traps

OK... so, having determined that your character HAS set off the trap, I've collected the various traps from the Rifts Game Master's Guide, and I'd like to see if anyone has suggestions on how a character might avoid taking damage from these types of trap. I think a simple dodge roll might work just fine, but it'd be useful to see if anyone has any alternate suggestions, or maybe some kind of penalty:

• Pit traps (Various types, consolidated): Dodge to catch oneself on the edge of the pit, without falling all the way in
• Punji Sticks: Dodge to detect them at the last possible second and avoid impaling themselves. Can't be "triggered", so not really relevant to the first question
• Punji-Stick Drop-Fall Trap: Dodge to avoid being hit
• Swinging Log: Dodge to dive out of the way
• Barbed Wire Barrier: Dodge to avoid running into it
• Rock Slide/Log Fall: Dodge to find cover at -8 (already covered in the book)
• Crossbow Trap: Dodge per projectile
• Snare/net/bear traps: Dodge to avoid putting your foot in the trap

Additional traps not covered in the GMG

The following are some additional ideas for traps I've had, but am not sure how best to implement in-game, in terms of damage, escaping and avoiding them:

• "Shrinking room" trap - either the ceiling or the walls slowly begin to constrict, with or without razor sharp spikes for extra nastiness. The victim only has limited time to escape, either by finding a shut-off mechanism or some means of escaping, either left in there by the trap maker deliberately out of a sick sense of fun, or just available due to poor maintenance - a loose block for example
• Drowning trap - much like the previous, except the threat comes not from being crushed, but from being drowned in a fluid (usually sand or water) with which the chamber is suddenly inexorably filling
• Swinging/oscilating blades trap - anyone who's ever played Skyrim should know what I mean, not complex to defeat - just dodge between the blades - but nasty if you get it wrong. A variation on the Skyrim blades trap would be one where buzz-saw type blades repeatedly move back and forth at floor level.
• Poison dart trap - probably some variation on the crossbow trap? The hail of darts should not, to my mind, be terribly deadly in itself, but they're almost always tipped with nasty poisons
• flamethrower trap - again, like the ones in Skyrim
• magic rune trap - step on the magical symbol, get hit with some nasty magical effects (fire or lightning for example)
• Collapsing ceiling trap - once triggered, the entire stone or wood ceiling of the room collapses on the intruder. Probably a variation on the Punji deadfall trap? Except rather than a single object you might dodge, it's the entire ceiling of the room you're in. Conceivably if it began to fall from one end, the character could flee to the far end of the room and open a door, though one might think that the designer wouldn't incorporate an easily-unlocked door, if he wanted the trap to reliably harm those caught in it.
• Rolling boulder trap - Indiana Jones-style trap, where a massive ball of rock rolls to crush the intruder. Only way to avoid it would be to flee the boulder until the tunnel narrows or turns too much for it to keep rolling (which in IJ, it does for narrative convenience), or to find a gap in the tunnel that you can retreat into while the boulder rolls past you

Any other trap concepts I haven't thought up yet would be greatly appreciated.

[Veknironth]

Well, for the random chance, I wouldn't tie it to any skill or ability. That wouldn't be entirely random. What you can do is decide if you want to have the trap be passed up by dumb luck on a percentage basis. This would give the largest range of options, unless you go beyond 1-100. Then, depending on the trap, you assign a percent chance for tripping it. IF they don't trip it, good times for them. IF so, bad times.

For grabbing the side of the pit trap, I'd go with a strike roll. For avoiding things, dodge. If you're dealing with moderate level PC's be prepared for them to cut the rope on any swinging logs or blades. Why bother dodging when you can just disable the trap?

For drowning, you had better have the swimming skill and be in light armor. Or someone can use magic to help you breath, swim, or remove you from the liquid.

Magic has its own set of saving throws.

Shrinking room, that's on the PC to find a way out or a way to stop the shrinking. Not much dodging to do there.

-Vek
"I'll shut my trap now."

[Braden Campbell]

It really is surprising that after 30 years of Palladium Fantasy, there hasn't been more written on this subject.

I guess I'm of the opinion that if a trap is successfully set-up, it WILL catch anyone unaware enough to trigger it; that's it's job. So, the only way that PCs will fail to trigger a trap is if the trap maker blew their construction roll. Which leads us into the fact that PFRPG has no Trap Construction skill... so you'll have to port one over from Rifts.

Anyone who isn't actively keeping an eye out for traps (via magic, psionics, or just plain ol' perception rolls) triggers a successfully-built trap. The onus is on them for being careless/dumb.

As for avoiding damage, I would of course allow a character to roll with it for 1/2 damage in some cases... and in others, an initiative roll might be better to see if they can realize what's about to happen before they get caught (roll to beat the trap's init). If they beat the trap, then they can try to dodge... otherwise, let's face it... most traps should be counted as sneak/ambush attacks and therefore warrant no dodge or parry.

[kiralon]

Traps have always been a bit weird in palladium, but the one thing I do agree with is you generally don't really have time to react to them.
First Ed
Yin Sloth has a little bit about traps page 17. Pit, Snare, punji, crossbow are mentioned

Second Ed
Locate Secret compartments and doors lets you disable traps as well
Detect concealment and traps
Field Armourer lets you fix, reset and repair simple traps.
Trap and track animals lets you make simple traps, and disable traps too.
Camouflage mentions its used to hide traps
Pick locks gives you a chance to deactivate a trap
Pockets does the same.

This is the way I do traps. Traps are not easy to avoid, in fact when made successfully and you don't know they are there they are close to impossible to do so. Get a nerf gun and a friend, give gun to friend and get a corridor, he picks a point where he fires the nerf gun down the corridor. See if you can dodge it knowing its coming, now do it in the dark, did you dodge ? If you step on the trigger you have bugger all chance of not being got unless there are unusual circumstances. %90 of parties doing the tombs of gersidi have lost a party member to the stone block trap on level 1.

If the characters are just wandering along and get hit by a trap they don't have much of a change to dumb luck their way out of it, and I don't use a luck roll to see if they do either. (looking for traps however is a different proposal)
To me I basically use a combat method
Say jerry, jim and jack are wandering down a path, jerry is first, jim second and jack third.
Jerry finds a snake pit trap the hard way, the ground just drops away beneath his feet.
Jerry wants to try and grab the sides of the pit before he falls in so first
Jerry has to beat the initiative of the trap, which is 18 because he was just wandering along without a care in the world. If he doesn't he just falls past the edge onto the snake before he realised what happened.
Jim also wants to try and grab jerry, and he was just as carefree (normal movement rate not looking for traps. Looking for traps is slow work) so he also has to beat an initiative roll of 18 to be able to attempt.
If Jerry makes the roll he can attempt to make a climbing check to save himself, or roll a d20, add his PP and get 40 or more (50 for dwarf stonework traps) and if you roll a 20 you can make another roll and add it. This is the dumb luck bit. I also give negatives for having something in either hand (-10 per hand). Jim can do the same, however for every point he scores below 20 is a negative to jerry.
Jack can only watch in horror as his friend drops into the pit and get bitten by 2d6 irritated snakes. Jerry was lucky however because he was wearing full plate and only takes falling damage (and if falling damage exceeds PE each extra point over is %5 chance of breaking something)


And the difficulty of just finding it is very high when not looking unless the trap is very obvious which means the trap maker isn't very good at his job, which does happen.
But having a well hidden trap inside of an obvious trap is another kind of trap too. Think of a snare trap, that when touched/set off snatches the noose up into the air, but also rolls spiked logs down so the best option was to actually be caught by the trap hehe (or not go near them).

[Hendrik]

The article on Gnomes in Rifter 81 contains some 2 pages on traps. Maybe that can add to this excellent discussion. (Couldn’t say before as I did not know whether that part would be published)

[PalladiumBrony]

The article on Gnomes in Rifter 81 contains some 2 pages on traps. Maybe that can add to this excellent discussion. (Couldn’t say before as I did not know whether that part would be published)

Ahha! I don't have Rifter #81 so I should pick that up I guess!

[Hendrik]

Rifter 80 and 81 will both be published on Monday 30th July, is what Palladium said.

Tell me what you think about Gnomes when you have it.

[Whiskeyjack]

I submitted some gnome specific mounts for the rifter last year. Never heard back. They're an underutilized race. I'll have to pick up the new rifters an have a read.

[Hendrik]

I submitted some gnome specific mounts for the rifter last year. Never heard back. They're an underutilized race. I'll have to pick up the new rifters an have a read.

Totally underutilized! I very much agree!

In the article I did not go into mounts at all, but it has ... landsails

[Tywyll]

Little bit of thread necromancy...

B/X D&D had a rule that if you were moving at exploration speed (i.e. that slow ass D&D movement rate) of X feet per Turn, then you only had a 1-2 on a d6 chance of setting off most traps. The others were either avoided or noticed, hence the extremely slow movement. If you were moving faster (say being chased by a monster) then you ALWAYs set of a trap you encountered.

I would probably use something similar. Granted, I have no idea how to determine 'exploration speed' in PF...

[kiralon]

I play if you have someone in the party who can find traps moving at combat speed gives you the chance to find them (at a negative of course using the skill or have very high perception), otherwise you walk into them unless specifically searching.
For me combat speed (as defined by being able to parry and dodge and fight, and aren't just running headlong) is 1 10ft square per 5 points of speed, but I also use miniatures at times for combat.