Barbarian O.C.C. Question

[Xhumeka]

Hi all - haven't played Palladium in quite some time, but while browsing a used bookstore found some 2nd edition books that I picked up. I've never played 2nd edition before so I'm trying to familiarize myself with the rule changes etc. for an upcoming campaign my friends and are are about to play.

Having read through a bunch of threads here it seems that the consensus is that Magic/Psychic O.C.C. classes are much more powerful/robust than the Men of Arms OCCs (for reasons like the ability to "upgrade" to better hand-to-hand classes which negate a lot of the benefits of Men of Arms, at least in 1st edition). My friends also seem to agree with this after having read through the core rulebook and EVERYONE has chosen a Psychic/Magic class - not one single person wants to be a Fighting class.

For that reason I decided to try to whip-up the most powerful fighter I could to see how it would compare - I first thought of using an "optional" class/race combo such as the Minotaur Witch (with gift of power), but then decided to go with something not listed as "optional if the GM allows it" (and besides, Witch isn't a fighter class anyhow).

So then I read about the Barbarian OCC (in book 13) and I just want to make sure I understand things correctly. If I choose a Wolfen Barbarian with "master of paired weapons" ability, and chose the Voulge as my weapon of choice (4D6) is it accurate that this guy would attack with TEN D6?? (4D6 damage from Voulge, one in each hand thanks to "master of paired weapons" ability to hold a 2-handed weapon in each hand, plus the "giant sized" weapon bonus of 1D6 for Wolfen/Ogres/Trolls weapons).

This seems like a pretty powerful combination, just making sure I have my facts straight! Thanks for any help, really looking forward to getting back into this great game!!!

[Jimbo]

Well, your math is correct and within the framework of the rules as written. That being said, as a DM I would not allow it. I dont see that the Barbarian ability applies to Pole Arms. Considering that the pole arms are nearly ten feet long, being giant class weapons, i cant see how the character could use a pair of them to maximum efficiency as they were designed to be used with two hands, where as even a claymore can be used one handed (Have personally done so). It is more effective use two handed. I realize we are talking about larger than life heroes in a fantasy game but even they have limits. Just my opinion on the matter.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well, your math is correct and within the framework of the rules as written. That being said, as a DM I would not allow it. I dont see that the Barbarian ability applies to Pole Arms. Considering that the pole arms are nearly ten feet long,

Entirely depends on the polearm. Most are not that long. Some are quite short, comparatively, though im sure Palladium's statistics on weapon size are terrible off.

A polearm that a Knight would use (like a Lochaber Axe, Lucern Hammer, or a Glaive) were usually no taller than their wielder (about five to six feet, at most). Infantry pole-arms not designed for anti-cavalry use were usually not more than 7-8 feet, and often more towards the low end of that ( 6 1/2 to 7ft). Only a few polearms, mostly those meant for anti-cavalry purposes, were longer than 8 feet, but some of those, like the Pike, could get absurdly long (12+ feet). An infantry polearm like a Halberd, Voulge, or footmans Glaive would be around 7ft. It would only be longer if the wielder was very tall for the time (you need to be able to move it around quickly and use both ends, not something you can do with a 9+ foot polearm).

being giant class weapons, i cant see how the character could use a pair of them to maximum efficiency as they were designed to be used with two hands, where as even a claymore can be used one handed (Have personally done so).

Claymore is perhaps not the best analogy, as "Claymore" is simply a word that basically means "sword". Both a basket-hilted, single-handed cut-and-thrust sword and a two-handed, 50+" greatsword are Claymores. You definitely cannot use the larger, William-Wallace style of Claymore one-handed. Theyre too heavy and too long. There were transitional "long sword" Claymores ("Long Sword" as RPGs use the term is laughably incorrect - RPGs usualy use it for a "long single handed weapon", when the historical use of the term was for a sword that could be used in one hand or two - basically, the modern term "Bastard Sword" is actually a Long Sword) that could be used either way, though it was, ironically, a weird reverse-transition. The two-handed great-sword sized Claymores preceeded the Long Sword variants which preceeded the basket-hilt cut and thrust design.

It is more effective use two handed. I realize we are talking about larger than life heroes in a fantasy game but even they have limits. Just my opinion on the matter.

An 8-foot tall Wolfen could probably use an infantry polearm in each hand, as long as it was on the shorter end of the spectrum. But i would certainly not allow the "giant sized" bonus for a "Wolfen Weapon" (where is THAT, exactly, b ecause that shouldnt be a thing, Wolfen are NOT that much bigger than people) if doing so - he's using human-sized weapons. An infantry pole-arm sized for a Wolfen would probably be about 1 to 1 1/2 feet taller than its wielder.

You could get away, if you were very strong (which Wolfen are), with wielding a 6ft long weapon in each hand, as you'd still have clearance to move them around (not a lot, but some). Especially if you choked up on the haft a bit. But you're not going to get away with using a 9 1/2 foot long weapon in each hand. You could do it in one hand with a spear (not as much weight as most polearms on the end) and a shield, but you're not going to use two at a time. You have no room to move them - the back end of the hafts would hit the ground every time you tried to swing the things.

Even GRANTING that it is a heroic special ability.... SOME sense of realism needs to apply.

So id say.. yes, you can swing 4D6 in each hand, just not get the bonus for a giant weapon.

Good luck living, though. Every time you do that (paired strike), you're going to get shredded by incoming attacks as you can no longer parry.

[kiralon]

Giant sized battle axe is the way to go anyway
4d6 damage at level 1
5d6 damage at level 2

[Veknironth]

Well, your math is correct, but there are a few things left out. First, what about strength bonuses? Second, if you really want to min/max this you need to make the character a troll. Or, you do something really drastic and use an Eandroth Rogue, or Jeridu (no, they don't get 96 attacks per melee). That said, I don't think you can use a giant-sized voulge in each hand. The description says you can use weapons that normally need two hands with one hand. An example is a giant weapon. The description seems to be written with humans in mind and to mean only hafted weapons or swords. So, you could use a claymore one-handed, or a hercules club one-handed, or even a giant weapon. The implication is a giant, one-handed weapon.

So, from the examples given, it's a weapon that is a simple third class lever. You grab it at one end and hit with the other. Most polearms are used with the hands spaced out along the shaft, so that would be a different body mechanic. Based on that, I'd disallow the Giant-sized Voulge in each hand. You could use a regular, human sized voulge in each hand, or a giant sized hafted weapon/sword.

-Vek
"Do I smell a Hotrod contest about best melee fighter?"

[Soldier of Od]

I would allow the paired voulges in this case. The ability says you can use two handed weapons in one hand; the voulge is a two handed weapon, so you can use it in one hand. This is a "special power" for the O.C.C., so I would allow it to be special - the logistics of exactly how they do it is less important for me. Any wolfen with the paired weapons skill could use a pair of giant sized battle axes. Let the barbarian have its unique ability.

Also, you might want to read through the W.P. paired weapons description carefully - you might not want to just wade in with double hits every time, depending on whether you want to lose your automatic parry.

[kiralon]

Eandrorh rogue ftw

[ShadowLogan]

(where is THAT, exactly, b ecause that shouldnt be a thing, Wolfen are NOT that much bigger than people)

PF2E main book pg269 at the bottom of the page it discusses giant (and also gnome) size weapons

[Xhumeka]

Great discussion - thanks so much for the feedback everyone, greatly appreciated!