Shifter with a Link to the Cosmic Forge?

[Godslayer]

Topic says it all. A Shifter with a Link to the Supernatural, linking him or her to the Cosmic Forge.

Anyone out there ever tried this? Would anyone out there allow it? If so, what kind of bonuses would you give the Shifter?

[eliakon]

Topic says it all. A Shifter with a Link to the Supernatural, linking him or her to the Cosmic Forge.

Anyone out there ever tried this? Would anyone out there allow it? If so, what kind of bonuses would you give the Shifter?

Me personally? I wouldn't allow it. But that is more a function of the various home-brew shenanigans at work with my Cosmic Forge than anything else.
Outside of that... there is, theoretically, nothing preventing it. Though supposedly the Cosmic Forge has never communicated with anyone but Knights for millions of years, and the Forge seems to be weak vs magic.
It would make this shifter the #1 target for basically everybody. A living link to the Forge? Yep, everyone and their brother is going to want them.

Abilities? maybe 1/2 damage from energy attacks, and some 'good' spells (Call Creature of Light, Cosmic Armor, space spells) I dunno.
baby knight type stuff.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Topic says it all. A Shifter with a Link to the Supernatural, linking him or her to the Cosmic Forge.

Anyone out there ever tried this? Would anyone out there allow it? If so, what kind of bonuses would you give the Shifter?

As the Cosmic Forge is a force of good.... God of Light.

[SolCannibal]

Well, does the Cosmic Forge even communicate on that level?

Because i have always interpreted their conection to the Cosmo Knights as something more cryptic, vague and loose, closer to what a millenium druid might get out of a millenium tree overall, so not really on the same frame of mind & interaction.

[Warshield73]

Well, does the Cosmic Forge even communicate on that level?

Because i have always interpreted their conection to the Cosmo Knights as something more cryptic, vague and loose, closer to what a millenium druid might get out of a millenium tree overall, so not really on the same frame of mind & interaction.

I don't think that we have a canon answer to how the CF communicates with it's knights. We do know that when the CF "recruits" a new Knight that it communicates in visions of potential futures and dream like images that are very lucid.

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

[SolCannibal]

Well, does the Cosmic Forge even communicate on that level?

Because i have always interpreted their conection to the Cosmo Knights as something more cryptic, vague and loose, closer to what a millenium druid might get out of a millenium tree overall, so not really on the same frame of mind & interaction.

I don't think that we have a canon answer to how the CF communicates with it's knights. We do know that when the CF "recruits" a new Knight that it communicates in visions of potential futures and dream like images that are very lucid.

What mostly fits with my Millenium Tree simile, i guess.

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

So, while the serial's canonicity is not established, we can keep the "cosmic forge as an entity" can of worms quite safely closed.

[Axelmania]

HOTF was a fun read, but that bit about the forge picking up random guys from 20th century earth (not sure if that main char, Kyle or whatever, was meant to be from BTS or something?) and depositing them in the 3 galaxies is pretty odd. Far as I know the forge just empowers you wherever you're from and doesn't actually transport you to new spots, though perhaps it might guide you to places you're needed via the "galactic awareness" stuff.

[SolCannibal]

HOTF was a fun read, but that bit about the forge picking up random guys from 20th century earth (not sure if that main char, Kyle or whatever, was meant to be from BTS or something?) and depositing them in the 3 galaxies is pretty odd. Far as I know the forge just empowers you wherever you're from and doesn't actually transport you to new spots, though perhaps it might guide you to places you're needed via the "galactic awareness" stuff.

20th, 21st century Earths or conveniently vague to be uncertain?

Anyway, i guess the conceit about people from multiple earths being drafted to "the good fight" in the 3 Galaxies might work better with some excuse, like arrivals via rift from the 3 Galaxies (maybe related to the events of Dimensional Outbreak, or alternatively, some messy hotspot like Pomadon in the TGE space) leading into major intrusions on each of these Earths, or somesuch.

[eliakon]

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

So, while the serial's canonicity is not established, we can keep the "cosmic forge as an entity" can of worms quite safely closed.

I think we can pretty safely say that the story will never be canon either. Not only do the events in it conflict with several canonical events in the books. It uses several other peoples I.P.s freely to provide characters, plots, and events... as a work of fiction it already skirts the line on fair use, turned into official canon it would zoom straight into the heart of "you need licenses for this stuff" territory with out a look back.
Thus while it is a fun read... it should in no way be construed as setting canon.

[SolCannibal]

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

So, while the serial's canonicity is not established, we can keep the "cosmic forge as an entity" can of worms quite safely closed.

I think we can pretty safely say that the story will never be canon either. Not only do the events in it conflict with several canonical events in the books. It uses several other peoples I.P.s freely to provide characters, plots, and events... as a work of fiction it already skirts the line on fair use, turned into official canon it would zoom straight into the heart of "you need licenses for this stuff" territory with out a look back.
Thus while it is a fun read... it should in no way be construed as setting canon.

Well, i have yet to read it, so i would not know. But that does help to get an idea, i guess. Maybe one of those days i'll read it just to come up with an alternative take for my own games (at least on the "Cosmic Forge touching people on multiple universes" angle).

[Warshield73]

HOTF was a fun read, but that bit about the forge picking up random guys from 20th century earth (not sure if that main char, Kyle or whatever, was meant to be from BTS or something?) and depositing them in the 3 galaxies is pretty odd. Far as I know the forge just empowers you wherever you're from and doesn't actually transport you to new spots, though perhaps it might guide you to places you're needed via the "galactic awareness" stuff.

20th, 21st century Earths or conveniently vague to be uncertain?

Anyway, i guess the conceit about people from multiple earths being drafted to "the good fight" in the 3 Galaxies might work better with some excuse, like arrivals via rift from the 3 Galaxies (maybe related to the events of Dimensional Outbreak, or alternatively, some messy hotspot like Pomadon in the TGE space) leading into major intrusions on each of these Earths, or somesuch.

Truthfully this was the worst part about the beginning of this story. It got better as it went on but what you have to remember is that in the 7 years between DB3 and DB5 there was nothing for the Three Galaxies except HOTF so it was kind of cool to get some stories in this area.

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

So, while the serial's canonicity is not established, we can keep the "cosmic forge as an entity" can of worms quite safely closed.

I think we can pretty safely say that the story will never be canon either. Not only do the events in it conflict with several canonical events in the books. It uses several other peoples I.P.s freely to provide characters, plots, and events... as a work of fiction it already skirts the line on fair use, turned into official canon it would zoom straight into the heart of "you need licenses for this stuff" territory with out a look back.
Thus while it is a fun read... it should in no way be construed as setting canon.

For the first part I am not aware of anything in the story that conflicts with the first 3 Three Galaxies books. Now it probably conflicts with some of the stuff from the more recent books but those books have a fair number of contradictions with each other so that is not saying much.

As for the second part I have no idea what you are talking about. If DC can get away with Slade Wilson and Star Trek can do the Borg I don't think there is anything in HOTF that gets even close to the line but if I'm wrong please a few examples.

[SolCannibal]

HOTF was a fun read, but that bit about the forge picking up random guys from 20th century earth (not sure if that main char, Kyle or whatever, was meant to be from BTS or something?) and depositing them in the 3 galaxies is pretty odd. Far as I know the forge just empowers you wherever you're from and doesn't actually transport you to new spots, though perhaps it might guide you to places you're needed via the "galactic awareness" stuff.

20th, 21st century Earths or conveniently vague to be uncertain?

Anyway, i guess the conceit about people from multiple earths being drafted to "the good fight" in the 3 Galaxies might work better with some excuse, like arrivals via rift from the 3 Galaxies (maybe related to the events of Dimensional Outbreak, or alternatively, some messy hotspot like Pomadon in the TGE space) leading into major intrusions on each of these Earths, or somesuch.

Truthfully this was the worst part about the beginning of this story. It got better as it went on but what you have to remember is that in the 7 years between DB3 and DB5 there was nothing for the Three Galaxies except HOTF so it was kind of cool to get some stories in this area.

I have no problem with either of those things, loose threads and bits of outdated fluff clashing with canon make great fodder for adaptation and tweaking.

(Damn, i completely rewrote Mutants in Orbit's version for Mars based on a bit of info the writers themselves didn't think all ramifications of)

Out of curiosity, in what numbers of Rifter may the Hammer of the Forge stories be found?

[Warshield73]

Out of curiosity, in what numbers of Rifter may the Hammer of the Forge stories be found?

It started in issue 1 and continued until issue 54 I believe.

[SolCannibal]

Out of curiosity, in what numbers of Rifter may the Hammer of the Forge stories be found?

It started in issue 1 and continued until issue 54 I believe.

Wow, that's quite the story run. Thanks.

[Warshield73]

Out of curiosity, in what numbers of Rifter may the Hammer of the Forge stories be found?

It started in issue 1 and continued until issue 54 I believe.

Wow, that's quite the story run. Thanks.

I think it missed an issue here and there, but I am not sure which ones. It wasn't more than 1 or 2 issues though, if any.

[SolCannibal]

Out of curiosity, in what numbers of Rifter may the Hammer of the Forge stories be found?

It started in issue 1 and continued until issue 54 I believe.

Wow, that's quite the story run. Thanks.

I think it missed an issue here and there, but I am not sure which ones. It wasn't more than 1 or 2 issues though, if any.

Even if it were in only half those issues it would make a quite decent ammount of fiction to mine for ideas & plots.

[Axelmania]

Did they even pitch a compilation publication of the HOTF and SOT stories in the Rifters? I know they did that with the Lone Star comic. It might be nice to read them collectively instead of whipping out the various rifters.

I think I'm missing one of the rifters needed to complete both stories... might need to double check. It didn't bother me at the time...

Maybe if they published them with stats for the chars in the stories (like the lone star comic did) along with some new art it might be more appealing?

Could even include custom rules for the wonky stuff that happened in the books like the flying pyramid weapons launched against the CS, and maybe even ways these could be worked into the canonical SOT events somehow without influencing the main story, like have it hidden somehow.

I think the dragon villain in the SOT story wasn't in the 6-part SOT book series but maybe find a way to work him in somehow with Victor Scard and fudge an explanation?

[Warshield73]

Did they even pitch a compilation publication of the HOTF and SOT stories in the Rifters? I know they did that with the Lone Star comic. It might be nice to read them collectively instead of whipping out the various rifters.

I think I'm missing one of the rifters needed to complete both stories... might need to double check. It didn't bother me at the time...

I don't think either of these will ever see a Machinations of Doom style publication but several of us have pushed for a PDF publication of these for a few years now. There are no plans for it that I have heard of but it wouldn't take much to do it and I think it would get a lot of people who just don't want to get all the Rifters.. Heck I would buy it just to be able to read it in one place.

Maybe if they published them with stats for the chars in the stories (like the lone star comic did) along with some new art it might be more appealing?

I don't know SOT that well but I have wanted this for HOTF since like issue 4 or so. There is a small empire described in there that has like Psionic FTL drives and flying androids for fighters (one is a main character) and I have always wanted some stats on those. But I think at this point we are way too far from the creation to really see this now.

[SolCannibal]

I don't know SOT that well but I have wanted this for HOTF since like issue 4 or so. There is a small empire described in there that has like Psionic FTL drives and flying androids for fighters (one is a main character) and I have always wanted some stats on those. But I think at this point we are way too far from the creation to really see this now.

I think i remember something like that - the Psionic FTL drives at least, along with some dog-headed psychic aliens - in Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide.

[eliakon]

HOTF was a fun read, but that bit about the forge picking up random guys from 20th century earth (not sure if that main char, Kyle or whatever, was meant to be from BTS or something?) and depositing them in the 3 galaxies is pretty odd. Far as I know the forge just empowers you wherever you're from and doesn't actually transport you to new spots, though perhaps it might guide you to places you're needed via the "galactic awareness" stuff.

20th, 21st century Earths or conveniently vague to be uncertain?

Anyway, i guess the conceit about people from multiple earths being drafted to "the good fight" in the 3 Galaxies might work better with some excuse, like arrivals via rift from the 3 Galaxies (maybe related to the events of Dimensional Outbreak, or alternatively, some messy hotspot like Pomadon in the TGE space) leading into major intrusions on each of these Earths, or somesuch.

Truthfully this was the worst part about the beginning of this story. It got better as it went on but what you have to remember is that in the 7 years between DB3 and DB5 there was nothing for the Three Galaxies except HOTF so it was kind of cool to get some stories in this area.

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

So, while the serial's canonicity is not established, we can keep the "cosmic forge as an entity" can of worms quite safely closed.

I think we can pretty safely say that the story will never be canon either. Not only do the events in it conflict with several canonical events in the books. It uses several other peoples I.P.s freely to provide characters, plots, and events... as a work of fiction it already skirts the line on fair use, turned into official canon it would zoom straight into the heart of "you need licenses for this stuff" territory with out a look back.
Thus while it is a fun read... it should in no way be construed as setting canon.

For the first part I am not aware of anything in the story that conflicts with the first 3 Three Galaxies books. Now it probably conflicts with some of the stuff from the more recent books but those books have a fair number of contradictions with each other so that is not saying much.

Some of them include
-the 4-D material is pretty blatantly not in accord with the current published material on 4D/phase (blue benny)

-temporal mechanics doesn't work like that in current canon.

-Two for One bonus is that the Singularity Watch (which is someone elses IP) doesn't work that way...

-the black hole weapon... no one has such a program and I find it hard to believe that a mega weapon that can destroy STARS would not be part of the 'main military might' for the empire.. but workable.

-The extra few wars and epochs in history that don't line up with the official time line.

-the shadow lords/plane of shadow were canonically set in SotA and do NOT line up with the stuff in the book (it used much of the older Rifter stuff)

-The monk order that got overlooked (workable)

-the nano-tech in the article conflicts with the nano-tech in game (workable)

-The city with the psychic god guardian on Rifts Earth is in a place that is already written up... and does not have a psychic god guarded city with a few hundred titan juicers dressed as football players

-There is the problem with the way that it redoes the orbital community/earth defense system

-And lets not forget that Thor is absurdly buffed in his attack and fights, and destroys, several capitol ships... where as his canonical stats would get him killed by one in a round or two while he wouldn't even scratch their paint.

As for the second part I have no idea what you are talking about. If DC can get away with Slade Wilson and Star Trek can do the Borg I don't think there is anything in HOTF that gets even close to the line but if I'm wrong please a few examples.

We have TMNTs Singularity Watch... although Palladium no longer has the license from Mirage
We have the time lady Romana from Dr. Who...and last I checked Pallidum Books was not affiliated with the BBC
There was a specific football team used for the juicers... down to their colors and mascot... which are copyrighted
I can't recall of the top of my head all the others.

[Warshield73]

HOTF was a fun read, but that bit about the forge picking up random guys from 20th century earth (not sure if that main char, Kyle or whatever, was meant to be from BTS or something?) and depositing them in the 3 galaxies is pretty odd. Far as I know the forge just empowers you wherever you're from and doesn't actually transport you to new spots, though perhaps it might guide you to places you're needed via the "galactic awareness" stuff.

20th, 21st century Earths or conveniently vague to be uncertain?

Anyway, i guess the conceit about people from multiple earths being drafted to "the good fight" in the 3 Galaxies might work better with some excuse, like arrivals via rift from the 3 Galaxies (maybe related to the events of Dimensional Outbreak, or alternatively, some messy hotspot like Pomadon in the TGE space) leading into major intrusions on each of these Earths, or somesuch.

Truthfully this was the worst part about the beginning of this story. It got better as it went on but what you have to remember is that in the 7 years between DB3 and DB5 there was nothing for the Three Galaxies except HOTF so it was kind of cool to get some stories in this area.

In the serial story from the Rifter Hammer of the Forge we do see the Forge directly communicate with the Knights but I don't think that we have a canon example of this.

So, while the serial's canonicity is not established, we can keep the "cosmic forge as an entity" can of worms quite safely closed.

I think we can pretty safely say that the story will never be canon either. Not only do the events in it conflict with several canonical events in the books. It uses several other peoples I.P.s freely to provide characters, plots, and events... as a work of fiction it already skirts the line on fair use, turned into official canon it would zoom straight into the heart of "you need licenses for this stuff" territory with out a look back.
Thus while it is a fun read... it should in no way be construed as setting canon.

For the first part I am not aware of anything in the story that conflicts with the first 3 Three Galaxies books. Now it probably conflicts with some of the stuff from the more recent books but those books have a fair number of contradictions with each other so that is not saying much.

Some of them include
-the 4-D material is pretty blatantly not in accord with the current published material on 4D/phase (blue benny)

-temporal mechanics doesn't work like that in current canon.

-Two for One bonus is that the Singularity Watch (which is someone elses IP) doesn't work that way...

-the black hole weapon... no one has such a program and I find it hard to believe that a mega weapon that can destroy STARS would not be part of the 'main military might' for the empire.. but workable.

-The extra few wars and epochs in history that don't line up with the official time line.

-the shadow lords/plane of shadow were canonically set in SotA and do NOT line up with the stuff in the book (it used much of the older Rifter stuff)

-The monk order that got overlooked (workable)

-the nano-tech in the article conflicts with the nano-tech in game (workable)

-The city with the psychic god guardian on Rifts Earth is in a place that is already written up... and does not have a psychic god guarded city with a few hundred titan juicers dressed as football players

-There is the problem with the way that it redoes the orbital community/earth defense system

-And lets not forget that Thor is absurdly buffed in his attack and fights, and destroys, several capitol ships... where as his canonical stats would get him killed by one in a round or two while he wouldn't even scratch their paint.

OK I understand what you are talking about now, I was confused because the story never gives any game stats and very little big history for the 3G. When you said conflicts I thought you meant history and continuity.

Most of what you list though I think you can put down to dramatic license in a story verses stats in a game book. They are clearly outside the stats but I don't think it is canon busting.

As for the second part I have no idea what you are talking about. If DC can get away with Slade Wilson and Star Trek can do the Borg I don't think there is anything in HOTF that gets even close to the line but if I'm wrong please a few examples.

We have TMNTs Singularity Watch... although Palladium no longer has the license from Mirage
We have the time lady Romana from Dr. Who...and last I checked Pallidum Books was not affiliated with the BBC
There was a specific football team used for the juicers... down to their colors and mascot... which are copyrighted
I can't recall of the top of my head all the others.

I remember the first two and I don't think either one is too much of an issue. If they are too similar you can easily make changes to correct that.

The football team I don't remember but again just change the name or colors, you wouldn't have to change both, and it fine.

[eliakon]

For the first part I am not aware of anything in the story that conflicts with the first 3 Three Galaxies books. Now it probably conflicts with some of the stuff from the more recent books but those books have a fair number of contradictions with each other so that is not saying much.

Some of them include
-the 4-D material is pretty blatantly not in accord with the current published material on 4D/phase (blue benny)

-temporal mechanics doesn't work like that in current canon.

-Two for One bonus is that the Singularity Watch (which is someone elses IP) doesn't work that way...

-the black hole weapon... no one has such a program and I find it hard to believe that a mega weapon that can destroy STARS would not be part of the 'main military might' for the empire.. but workable.

-The extra few wars and epochs in history that don't line up with the official time line.

-the shadow lords/plane of shadow were canonically set in SotA and do NOT line up with the stuff in the book (it used much of the older Rifter stuff)

-The monk order that got overlooked (workable)

-the nano-tech in the article conflicts with the nano-tech in game (workable)

-The city with the psychic god guardian on Rifts Earth is in a place that is already written up... and does not have a psychic god guarded city with a few hundred titan juicers dressed as football players

-There is the problem with the way that it redoes the orbital community/earth defense system

-And lets not forget that Thor is absurdly buffed in his attack and fights, and destroys, several capitol ships... where as his canonical stats would get him killed by one in a round or two while he wouldn't even scratch their paint.

OK I understand what you are talking about now, I was confused because the story never gives any game stats and very little big history for the 3G. When you said conflicts I thought you meant history and continuity.

Most of what you list though I think you can put down to dramatic license in a story verses stats in a game book. They are clearly outside the stats but I don't think it is canon busting.

My point is that they are outside the canon.
You can't exactly stat out the characters if they are of races that have been redefined in totally different ways for example. Nor can you insert events that have already been stated to have happened differently. If the story says X Y and Z are how things work/go/happened and the canon says it is A B and C... then you can't really canonize the story.


Now sure... they could rewrite swaths of the story to conform with the new canon, while removing all the material that they can't use for legal reasons...
...but that wouldn't be HoTF and it certainly wouldn't be a republishing of it.

As for the second part I have no idea what you are talking about. If DC can get away with Slade Wilson and Star Trek can do the Borg I don't think there is anything in HOTF that gets even close to the line but if I'm wrong please a few examples.

We have TMNTs Singularity Watch... although Palladium no longer has the license from Mirage
We have the time lady Romana from Dr. Who...and last I checked Pallidum Books was not affiliated with the BBC
There was a specific football team used for the juicers... down to their colors and mascot... which are copyrighted
I can't recall of the top of my head all the others.

I remember the first two and I don't think either one is too much of an issue. If they are too similar you can easily make changes to correct that.

The football team I don't remember but again just change the name or colors, you wouldn't have to change both, and it fine.

Re-writing the material to remove all the names and materials that were used would be a pretty big process, especially since you would probably have to pay an IP lawyer to verify that all the needed material is out.
Again a major rewrite of the story is a pretty significant project...

And a pretty significant project for something that is of questionable marketability is probably not high on their to-do list. If they could simply bundle up the entire story as is, throw some stats on it and publish it like they did with Machinations of Doom they likely would have done so... almost no work for a book? heck yeah. But "lots of work for basically a novel with stats? Not so much, especially considering how well (or not) the original novels sold.

[Axelmania]

All this stuff about Thor, I'm realizing I probably only read the first 50% or so of HOTF, must've been continued further than I remember into Rifters I hadn't gotten. Maybe Odin subsequently buffed him up like he got Odin-force in Marvel?

[SolCannibal]

-the black hole weapon... no one has such a program and I find it hard to believe that a mega weapon that can destroy STARS would not be part of the 'main military might' for the empire.. but workable.

Sounds like a homage to the Bolar super-weapon in season 3 of Yamato/Starblazers to me...

-the shadow lords/plane of shadow were canonically set in SotA and do NOT line up with the stuff in the book (it used much of the older Rifter stuff)

SotA, what does that mean? Pretty curious about what book might that be.

edit: Secrets of the Atlanteans?

-The city with the psychic god guardian on Rifts Earth is in a place that is already written up... and does not have a psychic god guarded city with a few hundred titan juicers dressed as football players

Well, Rifts Earth is post-apoc - if no major landmarks or spot in the map given, either city could just a homage to the original place from descendants of refugees.

[dreicunan]

I found much of HOTFs basic premise to be ludicrous, especially the idea

Spoiler:

that the cosmic forge is fine with killing pirates who have basically no way of actually killing a Cosmoknight because they shot lasers at you, but will make you a fallen knight for actually finding a way to kill a mass-murder who is trying to kill you and everyone you know, and quite possibly rape your bride to be, because somehow that is murder.

However, I did like the power level shown for Thor. The stats for deities in Palladium are usually extremely underwhelming.

[Warshield73]

I found much of HOTFs basic premise to be ludicrous, especially the idea

Spoiler:

that the cosmic forge is fine with killing pirates who have basically no way of actually killing a Cosmoknight because they shot lasers at you, but will make you a fallen knight for actually finding a way to kill a mass-murder who is trying to kill you and everyone you know, and quite possibly rape your bride to be, because somehow that is murder.

Agreed, there were a lot of silly plot lines (what you describe is one of the worst), I took a 3 year break from it before I actually finished the last 12 issues, but overall there is a lot of fun stuff in there.

[SolCannibal]

Unrelated question - is anyone familiar with what Eliakon meant when he spoke of "the shadow lords/plane of shadow not lining up with how they were canonically set in SotA"? Does he mean some citation in the HotF chapters or an actual Rifter article on "the shadow lords/plane of shadow" for Rifter but that was possibly scrapped by the time Secrets of the Atlanteans came in?

If so, what number might it be?

[Warshield73]

Unrelated question - is anyone familiar with what Eliakon meant when he spoke of "the shadow lords/plane of shadow not lining up with how they were canonically set in SotA"? Does he mean some citation in the HotF chapters or an actual Rifter article on "the shadow lords/plane of shadow" for Rifter but that was possibly scrapped by the time Secrets of the Atlanteans came in?

If so, what number might it be?

I'm not sure if this is what he meant but there is a character in HOTF that is a shadow being and in Rifter 28 they describe the shadow realm as well as a bunch of Shadow creatures. They even mention I believe that the character from HOTF is one of these creatures.

Now in Secrets of Atlantis, Which I believe came out last year, they may have done something different but I haven't read that part.

[SolCannibal]

Unrelated question - is anyone familiar with what Eliakon meant when he spoke of "the shadow lords/plane of shadow not lining up with how they were canonically set in SotA"? Does he mean some citation in the HotF chapters or an actual Rifter article on "the shadow lords/plane of shadow" for Rifter but that was possibly scrapped by the time Secrets of the Atlanteans came in?

If so, what number might it be?

I'm not sure if this is what he meant but there is a character in HOTF that is a shadow being and in Rifter 28 they describe the shadow realm as well as a bunch of Shadow creatures. They even mention I believe that the character from HOTF is one of these creatures.

Now in Secrets of Atlantis, Which I believe came out last year, they may have done something different but I haven't read that part.

Good, now i know what Rifter to look for to compare things, mix, match, tweak or mess with if in the mood.

There are multiple infernal dimensions and pantheons with their realms, why not multiple shadow realms, each with its own natives and peculiarities or one of multiple layers?

[dreicunan]

Unrelated question - is anyone familiar with what Eliakon meant when he spoke of "the shadow lords/plane of shadow not lining up with how they were canonically set in SotA"? Does he mean some citation in the HotF chapters or an actual Rifter article on "the shadow lords/plane of shadow" for Rifter but that was possibly scrapped by the time Secrets of the Atlanteans came in?

If so, what number might it be?

I'm not sure if this is what he meant but there is a character in HOTF that is a shadow being and in Rifter 28 they describe the shadow realm as well as a bunch of Shadow creatures. They even mention I believe that the character from HOTF is one of these creatures.

Now in Secrets of Atlantis, Which I believe came out last year, they may have done something different but I haven't read that part.

Good, now i know what Rifter to look for to compare things, mix, match, tweak or mess with if in the mood.

There are multiple infernal dimensions and pantheons with their realms, why not multiple shadow realms, each with its own natives and peculiarities or one of multiple layers?

I was just thinking the same thing. When it comes to other dimensions, Rifts always has a solution for apparent canon conflicts: alternate dimensions.

[SolCannibal]

Unrelated question - is anyone familiar with what Eliakon meant when he spoke of "the shadow lords/plane of shadow not lining up with how they were canonically set in SotA"? Does he mean some citation in the HotF chapters or an actual Rifter article on "the shadow lords/plane of shadow" for Rifter but that was possibly scrapped by the time Secrets of the Atlanteans came in?

If so, what number might it be?

I'm not sure if this is what he meant but there is a character in HOTF that is a shadow being and in Rifter 28 they describe the shadow realm as well as a bunch of Shadow creatures. They even mention I believe that the character from HOTF is one of these creatures.

Now in Secrets of Atlantis, Which I believe came out last year, they may have done something different but I haven't read that part.

Good, now i know what Rifter to look for to compare things, mix, match, tweak or mess with if in the mood.

There are multiple infernal dimensions and pantheons with their realms, why not multiple shadow realms, each with its own natives and peculiarities or one of multiple layers?

I was just thinking the same thing. When it comes to other dimensions, Rifts always has a solution for apparent canon conflicts: alternate dimensions.

Certainly worked with the Conversion Book's version of the Demon & Deevil Lords since the "false Mephisto" thing from D&G. Having a triumvirate of alien intelligences passing themselves for them to exploit their names and the rivalry between Dyvval & Hades has made wonders for my Minion War game, specially after i got the idea of applying all references to Modeus in Nightbane to the false one, to add to the mix.

[SolCannibal]

As an aside, i took a look at both materials - Rifter article and Secrets of the Atlanteans - and while there are some monster stat & spell list diferences, i came across no major clash of concepts at all, unlike what i expected from Eliakon's commentary, at least in my admitedly haphazard perusal.

In fact both materials, seem to be directly connected and pretty consistent between each other, in that the later is pretty much an update and expansion of concepts of the former, both works of the same writer, Carl Gleba.

[Axelmania]

Certainly worked with the Conversion Book's version of the Demon & Deevil Lords since the "false Mephisto" thing from D&G. Having a triumvirate of alien intelligences passing themselves for them to exploit their names and the rivalry between Dyvval & Hades has made wonders for my Minion War game, specially after i got the idea of applying all references to Modeus in Nightbane to the false one, to add to the mix.

You could have him go by "Asmodeus" too, I believe Pantheons dropped that in the Aztec Gods mention.

Then of course there's the fun of that Nightlands kingdom which makes other reference to Aztec Gods like quetzalcoatl.

[SolCannibal]

Certainly worked with the Conversion Book's version of the Demon & Deevil Lords since the "false Mephisto" thing from D&G. Having a triumvirate of alien intelligences passing themselves for them to exploit their names and the rivalry between Dyvval & Hades has made wonders for my Minion War game, specially after i got the idea of applying all references to Modeus in Nightbane to the false one, to add to the mix.

You could have him go by "Asmodeus" too, I believe Pantheons dropped that in the Aztec Gods mention.

Considering all other references in the book use "Modeus" instead of "Asmodeus", it looks more like editing mistake or aa sign of how vaguely informed about things Xolotl actually is, than anything. But making it into an alternate title (if not the true name) of the False/Nightbane/Red Flames Modeus could work too.

A little 'twist' of mine is that, while "Modeus" and "Mephisto" are imposters, CB's Mictla is the real thing but the Hades one too! Not that they care much for each other anymore (kind of like Mantus & Mania in Hades). Also, unlike his "partners", he's capable of coming and going at will from Rifts Earth (it's in the CB1 book!) but has not told them. Also, has no interest in witches (no reference to the ability, unlike with the other two) for some reason.

Then of course there's the fun of that Nightlands kingdom which makes other reference to Aztec Gods like quetzalcoatl.

Oh, Aztec Gods mentioned in Nightbane material? That is new to me. Do you remember the book?

[Axelmania]

Perhaps genderless Mictla (it) is the lovechild of male Mictla (he) and female Mictla (she)?

Nightlands pg 97, the origins of Mu-Talan. Xibalba is apparently (in addition to whatever Vampire Kingdoms and Pantheons says) also a term used to refer to the Nightlands. There were humans who worship Quetzacoatl and Flint People who worship "Ket-Zakal"

Pg 51 of Nightlands also references a Goqua impersonating Loki (Pantheons 172) and WB9p42 talks about Inti raiding the Nightlands. CJ must've loved peppering crossover easter eggs in his books.