Why Increasing HP?

[Tywyll]

So, I know the real answer (because D&D and SDC didn't exist in first edition) but why does HP increase as you level instead of SDC? Considering the definition of the two factors, it seems like SDC should increase rather than your chunky life blood.

So besides 'because', why do it? Why keep it that way?

[Veknironth]

Well, there are two questions embedded in your query. The first is why would Palladium have HP increase with levels? I think it's because of AD&D and following that standard, but only KS could answer that. As for why Gary Gygaxx wanted it that way, who knows? I could surmise, but it wouldn't be a definitive answer. I think the idea is that characters should become more experienced and difficult to kill as they improve and mature. Ideally, the PLAYER would become smarter and wouldn't expose his or her character to avoidable peril, but few people engage RPGs to play it safe. So, rather than the character having the wisdom that the player might not, you throw in a game mechanic.

The second question is why keep it that way. One reason is just about every RPG game does some version of this. This includes pen and paper, video games, and even live action (I think).

Some people use HP as not just pure physical structure. It's like the HP is some ability to avoid dangerous or deadly blows, outside of parry/dodge/roll, that prevents every successful hit from delivering a mortal wound. You figure no matter how much training or experience you have, being brained by a cudgel affects everyone the same. It could also represent some sort of luck or subtle moves by the character to mitigate damage. Instead of being stabbed in the heart, you're just stabbed in a less dangerous location. Or perhaps the weapon didn't hit flush so it wasn't a bone crushing blow, or it was a light cut vs a deep one.

I don't know that even SDC should increase per level. You take the skills, and they provide some training benefits. I guess the assumption is you keep those skills up somehow and therefore don't lose the benefits. You also don't accrue more.

If anything, SDC is your blood, guts, body and HP is something more ephemeral.



-Vek
"What would really help is if there were more serious bleeding rules for Palladium. That is how most people die of wounds."

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well, there are two questions embedded in your query. The first is why would Palladium have HP increase with levels? I think it's because of AD&D and following that standard, but only KS could answer that. As for why Gary Gygaxx wanted it that way, who knows? I could surmise, but it wouldn't be a definitive answer. I think the idea is that characters should become more experienced and difficult to kill as they improve and mature. Ideally, the PLAYER would become smarter and wouldn't expose his or her character to avoidable peril, but few people engage RPGs to play it safe. So, rather than the character having the wisdom that the player might not, you throw in a game mechanic.

In a game without two pools (like D&D of whatever stripe) HP aren't just blood and guts. Its an abstract damage system to begin with - just because someone "hit" with a sword doesn't mean they ran you through. Maybe you turned at the last moment and they just scored a shot across your ribs. Minor cut. So HP represent additional experience that isn't bogged down by a game mechanic ("Ok, roll to hit; now, roll to dodge, defender. Oh, you failed but only be 3 points so you got a near-miss, roll on this chart to see how much damage.."). It represents things like turning a blow, moving your body to lessen the impact, etc. the OP's question is... since there ARE two pools now in Palladium, why keep HP advancing and not SDC, which IS described as being far more ephemeral. SDC represents minor cuts, bruises, abrasions, etc, and not "real" wounds.

The second question is why keep it that way. One reason is just about every RPG game does some version of this. This includes pen and paper, video games, and even live action (I think).

Some people use HP as not just pure physical structure. It's like the HP is some ability to avoid dangerous or deadly blows, outside of parry/dodge/roll, that prevents every successful hit from delivering a mortal wound. You figure no matter how much training or experience you have, being brained by a cudgel affects everyone the same. It could also represent some sort of luck or subtle moves by the character to mitigate damage. Instead of being stabbed in the heart, you're just stabbed in a less dangerous location. Or perhaps the weapon didn't hit flush so it wasn't a bone crushing blow, or it was a light cut vs a deep one.

I don't know that even SDC should increase per level. You take the skills, and they provide some training benefits. I guess the assumption is you keep those skills up somehow and therefore don't lose the benefits. You also don't accrue more.

You've basically just described why SDC should probably increase per level (as it is more ephemeral and can represent many things that arent "real" injuries) and HP should not.

If anything, SDC is your blood, guts, body and HP is something more ephemeral.

Other way around.

-Vek
"What would really help is if there were more serious bleeding rules for Palladium. That is how most people die of wounds."

In the modern era, yes. In medieval times? nope. Shock. Or just massive instant bloodloss when a limb was severed (but more likely shock) or your head was caved in.

I'd go with... HP shouldn't increase (but might be a bit higher to start, not double the current number or anything, but a bit higher) and SDC should.

[kiralon]

HP to me is a game mechanic to help separate beginners from more experienced characters, and to help with a rising difficulty factor. That's why sdc for people rubs me the wrong way, The difference % that 1st level character can have compared with what a 5th level character has is a lot smaller because of sdc. Bows become laugh at weapons because they cant do enough damage to be threatening. Someone put up the stats of a starting character that could take 89 points of damage at level 1 recently. You hit them with a flamberge 4-6 times and they laugh it off at-level-1. They don't even need to dodge, this is them just standing there taking it. They could take a direct hit from a catapult and walk it off. To me that's ridiculous because the difference in their damage capacity wont have doubled by level 14, and really who can take that many hits from a flamberge. Some games like dragon warriors are a little on the short side for fun games (start with 5hp, a normal sword does 5hp damage) so unless you have armour you get ganked by the first hit, but second ed palladium has gone a little bit too far the other way with attacks per round, hp and magic ability (level 1 mages can cast level 15 spells if they can slaughter enough cows and have learned the spell). When I first saw second ed I thought palladium was munchkinising everything to attract the rifts and other power gamers.

tl:dr
Palladiums game mechanics aren't even slightly balanced.

[Kraynic]

If you don't have hp increase, then the (fairly few) abilities that bypass SDC are much more powerful. I don't mess with 2nd Ed. other than owning the core book, but I know the death ward specifically bypasses SDC. If one ability does it, I am assuming that there are others. Of course, if you really want a death ward to live up to the name, not allowing people to raise hp would make a higher level death ward a chance to roll a new character on a failed save.

[Tywyll]

Ah, I wasn't asking why a character's 'damage resistance' should increase with level. I agree by now its just sort of taken for granted by most systems though represented in different ways.

I know what HP represent in D&D, which is very much an abstract 'timer' of a character's skill and luck and divine intervention until the last few HP. They do not and have never represented 'meat' though many people confuse them with that. I'm totally happy with HP being abstract in that fashion, in D&D.

My understanding (though I could be wrong) was that SDC were more closely linked to the abstractness of original HP (though they do describe them as 'scrapes and bruises') while HP represented serious injury (with even optional wound penalties based on HP loss). So I guess I've always interpreted SDC as more like the skill/luck of AD&D while HP are more critical injuries.

Which led to the question, shouldn't SDC improve while HP remains constant?

Even if I'm wrong in that assumption, skills and training obviously increase SDC, so it would stand to reason even more that a life of adventuring and the knowledge gained doing so would at least contribute as much to your SDC as going to the gym for a few months. But no amount of adventuring is going to make your internal organs tougher versus a bullet.

[Library Ogre]

Because Kevin didn't think about that implication when he introduced personal SDC.

[Kraynic]

Ah, I wasn't asking why a character's 'damage resistance' should increase with level. I agree by now its just sort of taken for granted by most systems though represented in different ways.

I know what HP represent in D&D, which is very much an abstract 'timer' of a character's skill and luck and divine intervention until the last few HP. They do not and have never represented 'meat' though many people confuse them with that. I'm totally happy with HP being abstract in that fashion, in D&D.

My understanding (though I could be wrong) was that SDC were more closely linked to the abstractness of original HP (though they do describe them as 'scrapes and bruises') while HP represented serious injury (with even optional wound penalties based on HP loss). So I guess I've always interpreted SDC as more like the skill/luck of AD&D while HP are more critical injuries.

Which led to the question, shouldn't SDC improve while HP remains constant?

Even if I'm wrong in that assumption, skills and training obviously increase SDC, so it would stand to reason even more that a life of adventuring and the knowledge gained doing so would at least contribute as much to your SDC as going to the gym for a few months. But no amount of adventuring is going to make your internal organs tougher versus a bullet.

"Damage resistance" is exactly what I think hp increase is about, though I think of it mostly as increased ability to making something a grazing blow that would have taken off your arm (or whatever) at lower level. Basically, I look at it as built-in roll with blow. On the other hand, I run 1E, so there is no personal SDC or roll with blow mechanic, and that probably makes more sense there.

To me, SDC makes sense more in the first system in which I encountered it: TMNT & Other Strangeness. While I admit to spending much more time creating mutated animals than playing, the idea of "you can take a few punches/kicks before starting to lose hp" seemed like something that fit well when playing. Not so much when you are getting hit with magical lightning or your enemies are trying to impale you on a spear (in my opinion anyway) in the fantasy setting.

The only thing I was trying to point out is that if you change what advances (SDC instead of HP), then you need to watch out for mechanics that ignore SDC, since that drastically increases their power if HP is static from character creation.

[Library Ogre]

If this was a well designed system, SDC would improve with level up, and you might use HP for certain kinds of attacks. I don't have a particular problem with deadly weapons doing SDC damage... you can be less-than-fatally wounded with a sword, especially through armor... but it would add some punch to poison if it ignored SDC.

[Veknironth]

Well, I always thought that SDC was the physical structure of the body that doesn't change with experience over time, but can be improved through training, exercise, and body hardening. I figure that inanimate objects have SDC but no HP and inanimate objects don't have any ability to avoid strikes or damage. So, HP is that ephemeral ability to not die while the SDC is purely physical damage, much like with a table or door. I guess you just decide which of the two increases as you level and raise that.

Or, you eschew SDC entirely and have HP as some overall combination of physical structure and luck avoiding things.

-Vek
"Eschew SDC."

[Whiskeyjack]

In my games, poison is direct to HP. It makes no sense to attack SDC.
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever played with natural 20's inflicting damage direct to HP instead of double damage to SDC?

[dreicunan]

In my games, poison is direct to HP. It makes no sense to attack SDC.
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever played with natural 20's inflicting damage direct to HP instead of double damage to SDC?

Not in Palladium, but in other systems that have a similar division of HP and something else (vitality points, etc) I have. It was always quickly house-ruled to either disappear entirely or to make it so that "mooks" couldn't inflict criticals, only antagonists of note.

[SirSpamHammer]

I see H.P. as your last defense before you start taking real damage & die. I use to play D&D or AD&D with a mate who referred to it as Fighting Spirit. So, it's more like your attitude than anything else. You get so spooked by those many near hits that knocked it down, you don't feel like fighting no more and you just drop.