What is the Cabal of 24?

[Captain_Nibbz]

Question to some of the old timers on the board. I keep seeing a reference to something called the Cabal of 24 when cruising through old posts and what not. Can anyone explain what this is/was? And why is NMI PROUD to not be a member?

Thanks in advance!
Captain Nibbz

[The Beast]

...Example 2*: Palladium announces Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT). But don't worry, it won't take much time out of their schedule and they'll still be focusing mostly on RPG books! Members on these boards say there's no way, and RRT will be a major time sink for Palladium. We get the big claim they don't know what they're talking about and ... some time passes and Palladium has spent an enormous amount of time on RRT, and no one realized it would take that much time.

*I can't recall for certain such comments came from the "Cabal of 24" or just vocal critics (I've been around long enough it all just kind of blurs together for me), but since the Cabal is not an actual specific group and often just a general label, I figured these examples would help give a concept at the very least.

I thought the Cabal was from pre-RTT, but I agree, it all tends to blur after awhile.

[Prysus]

I thought the Cabal was from pre-RTT, but I agree, it all tends to blur after awhile.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I think the Cabal started quite a while ago (posts in this thread were from 2010 and 2012, amd I don't think that was the beginning or the end of it), but many Cabal members are still PB forum members (many not as active anymore). I know Example 2 happened (and the people saying it were being dismissed as not being in the know), but I can't recall if any members of the Cabal were involved. That example is also why I added the asterisk.

Regardless if Cabal or not, I think it serves as a good example. A lot of the Cabal stuff would be pretending critics didn't know what they were talking about and they weren't true fans because they didn't believe everything said and/or had opinions others didn't want to hear. They voiced their opinions very vocally (and sometimes rudely), but that didn't mean they were wrong or were any less fans than the rest of us.

I'm trying to avoid getting too ... opinionated. But I will state I view the Cabal as the most famous example (because they have a title) of a trend on these boards: Dismiss critics and pretend they're not real fans.

I find that trend generally irksome. That trend has driven away fans. That trend makes it difficult to grow and improve because it only wants the praise, but we need criticism and other viewpoints to truly improve. Constant negativity can be annoying, but the negative should still be voiced.

All right, I'm done for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

[ScottBernard]

consider it a subset of the community that loves armchair quarterbacking every business decision that Palladium has ever made, with no information as to whats going on. They criticize everything under the guise of 'knowing better'.

I just enjoy the books when they come out, and its something that I have an interest in.

Wow. In one reply you showed the worst stereotype of palladium fans; the dismissive, rude and arrogant fan who is blindly loyal.

[ScottBernard]

And thank you Prysus for giving an honest and non insulting answer.

[Daniel Stoker]

There was a big discussion about this 10 years ago, I found Gleba's comments on the subject to be enlightening. But really it's no different than the discussions you see in all the fandoms, big discussion on these forums on the new Star Wars for instance.

Oh lordy was that thread a time capsule... And proves a lot of points as things haven't changed or gotten better with Palladium and their release schedule.


Daniel Stoker

[zyanitevp]

Question to some of the old timers on the board. I keep seeing a reference to something called the Cabal of 24 when cruising through old posts and what not. Can anyone explain what this is/was? And why is NMI PROUD to not be a member?

Thanks in advance!
Captain Nibbz

consider it a subset of the community that loves armchair quarterbacking every business decision that Palladium has ever made, with no information as to whats going on. They criticize everything under the guise of 'knowing better'.

I just enjoy the books when they come out, and its something that I have an interest in.

Greetings and Salutations. I'm a fan of Palladium, but I also want to be honest. The Cabal of 24 is often critical and calls BS on a lot of things Palladium says/claims. They're often dismissed as overly critical and not real fans. Sadly, time often proves their statements correct. Most of the Cabal of 24 are fans (or at least were, as some or many may have moved on by now), but they don't like being lied to or listening to Palladium claim something that is highly improbable (especially when time has proven Palladium's claim to be inaccurate time and time again). Some of their criticisms were a bit more aggressive, harsh, and/or rude, but that didn't necessarily make them entirely untrue either.

Example 1*: Palladium would claim they'd release 24 books in a year. Others would respond there's no way, that Palladium has only been releasing 3-4 books a year (not counting Rifters, when that was still a thing), and they're probably going to release only 3-4 books a year. Everyone dismisses the naysayers as being negative and not knowing what's going on behind Palladium's doors. A year later, Palladium has only released 3 to 4 books (maybe 2 if things were really slow, or 5 if they were really on a roll), not counting Rifters.

Example 2*: Palladium announces Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT). But don't worry, it won't take much time out of their schedule and they'll still be focusing mostly on RPG books! Members on these boards say there's no way, and RRT will be a major time sink for Palladium. We get the big claim they don't know what they're talking about and ... some time passes and Palladium has spent an enormous amount of time on RRT, and no one realized it would take that much time.

*I can't recall for certain such comments came from the "Cabal of 24" or just vocal critics (I've been around long enough it all just kind of blurs together for me), but since the Cabal is not an actual specific group and often just a general label, I figured these examples would help give a concept at the very least.

Example 3: Members of the Cabal often felt new rules would be a good idea (to what extent is often debated between each individual), as there are rules that contradict each other and/or don't work well with the other rules.

The "Cabal of 24" started a while back (I think someone knows the origins). I believe they may have been labeled such by what was later named the "Defenders of the Faith," people who aggressively defended Palladium against any possible criticism with rabid (and often blind) enthusiasm. This led to many conflicts and probably made the Cabal more critical instead of less. Because of their stances, Defenders would usually be praised and the Cabal vilified. I believe the intent of calling them the "Cabal of 24" was to label them as a small minority (only 24 people) that were vocal and critical, and claim that everyone who was silent was fine with everything that happened.

This thread discusses the Cabal a bit, and there's also some examples of people being utterly dismissive of anything they say: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=134432&

Now I don't agree with everything from the Cabal, but I don't agree with everything from Palladium either. In the end, I doubt I agree with everything from anyone. On the other hand, I dislike people being dismissed. They shouldn't simply be disregarded as "armchair quarterbacking" "under the guise of 'knowing better', because sometimes they DO know better, and it's based on actual evidence from Palladium. And maybe they don't always have the answer, but pretending everything is magically okay and great isn't the answer either. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

This is why you are still my favorite forum member- really well said.

[Warshield73]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm a fan of Palladium, but I also want to be honest. The Cabal of 24 is often critical and calls BS on a lot of things Palladium says/claims. They're often dismissed as overly critical and not real fans. Sadly, time often proves their statements correct. Most of the Cabal of 24 are fans (or at least were, as some or many may have moved on by now), but they don't like being lied to or listening to Palladium claim something that is highly improbable (especially when time has proven Palladium's claim to be inaccurate time and time again). Some of their criticisms were a bit more aggressive, harsh, and/or rude, but that didn't necessarily make them entirely untrue either.

Example 1*: Palladium would claim they'd release 24 books in a year. Others would respond there's no way, that Palladium has only been releasing 3-4 books a year (not counting Rifters, when that was still a thing), and they're probably going to release only 3-4 books a year. Everyone dismisses the naysayers as being negative and not knowing what's going on behind Palladium's doors. A year later, Palladium has only released 3 to 4 books (maybe 2 if things were really slow, or 5 if they were really on a roll), not counting Rifters.

You should love this, I'm calling BS. What year did PB ever say they were releasing 24 books in a year? I have all the Rifters and every catalogue since 1994 and when I was trying to make a list of promised books that were never released the most I ever saw was maybe 8 plus Rifters. Source, reference?

The "Cabal of 24" started a while back (I think someone knows the origins). I believe they may have been labeled such by what was later named the "Defenders of the Faith," people who aggressively defended Palladium against any possible criticism with rabid (and often blind) enthusiasm. This led to many conflicts and probably made the Cabal more critical instead of less. Because of their stances, Defenders would usually be praised and the Cabal vilified. I believe the intent of calling them the "Cabal of 24" was to label them as a small minority (only 24 people) that were vocal and critical, and claim that everyone who was silent was fine with everything that happened.

Many old members of the forums had "Member of the Cabal of 24" in their signature and from everything I remember back then this was a group that labeled themselves. If you have some reference to a nefarious plot to silence them could you reference it.

As for loosing fans it works both ways. The boards got so toxic from the Cabal that many people simply stopped coming. I got so tired of every single discussion becoming a diatribe about how evil Kevin is that I stopped coming. I was gone so long they deleted my old account and most of my old gaming group never came back. People who constantly crap on product are not going to get people to buy it but they will drive away people that just want to have a conversation.

Oh and the only reason I decided to even respond to this was "rabid" and "blind" to describe people who were critical of the Cabal so your point is proven, that language does make people more critical and not less.

I think for me is I don't view the release schedule as my problem. Books come out, I buy them (unless they're Dead Reign in which case I wait for a Christmas grab bag), the end. I never really thought it was something to complain about and I sure never thought I could do better. My hard drive is full of incomplete Rifter articles and book submissions that I could never finish so who's got two thumbs but can't throw any stones, this guy.

See I think it is, people (in theory) get excited when they hear a new book is coming out, and then to find out it's not coming out anytime soon, that sucks. As for those of us in the know who know it's more a suggestion.... it still isn't great (for me at least) where you don't know if that book is ever even going to be published. And gods forbid it's something like the Megaverse in Flames series where if you want to run the whole story you're SOL. Speaking of that... where is that series now? Did it get the last book and my brain is just mush?

Daniel Stoker

I get what you're saying here but I just can't get that worked up about it. I mean we see this everywhere do we know when Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 is coming out? or how about those Avatar sequels? This happens in all creative endeavors. I will see GoG3 even if it takes another 5 years but Avatar, it may have waited too long but that is there loss it didn't harm me in the slightest.

As far as I know all the books for the Minion War have been out for a few years now. Megaverse in Flames was the last main book and it came out in 2014, Heroes of Humanity was loosely connected and it came out in 2016. Yes 7 years from first book to last is a long time but again this is life, more specifically Carl Gleba's life. He has a job and a family and the entire series was his idea so when his life slowed his writing it slowed the release schedule. This actual goes to one of points that I have made often and that is PB (and this applies to Star Wars and other things too) can never win. When MW slowed down after I believe the 3rd book KS could have tried to write it himself and get them out quicker but then he would have gotten destroyed by the "he is horrible to the freelancers" crowd. If he held on to finished books waiting to get all of them done before releasing them to guarantee no large gaps he would have been destroyed for that too. PB is like 4 people and a bunch of freelancers. Those freelancers all have lives that are probably more important then the book I want. (if you're a freelancer and you don't have a life more important then the next gaming book seek help immediately ) So I wait, is it convenient, no. I never got to finish the Minion War. My group stopped gaming 2 years before MiF came out. I barely got to use Dimensional Outbreak so I was one of the people who was SOL.

I criticize PB for a lot. Look at some of my recent posts on Phase World to see that. I just know that PB isn't big enough to really do the things I want them to do so I just enjoy what I can.

[Warshield73]

Also, reading that thread brought up another question. What exactly was the Crisis of Treachery? As I understand it, it was some kind of embezzling problem? The history of both the company and the forums is endlessly fascination to me (which is why the pruning feature really makes me sad . . . so much lost to never be recovered).

A former employee had embezzled money and stolen a bunch of stuff from Palladium, which was found out about in 2006 (I don't recall if it was ever mentioned how long it had been happening).

I'm not sure how much is public or what I should say here but what is important is that the above statement doesn't cover it. This was not just an employee this was a close friend. He didn't just embezzle money he took money that was supposed to pay taxes. The stuff that was stolen was, and I'm sorry but I don't know enough about publishing, had something to do with the covers for books making it difficult, and in some cases impossible, to reprint out of print books to sell. This wasn't some cash from the register and a box of post-its, what he stole almost ended PB.

In April of that year Kevin announced it to the boards and did a fundraiser to try to stay afloat, which was a major success.

If you're talking about The Megaverse United print the fundraiser was a success, it kept the doors open, but not much more. One thing about this though it did significantly change the Palladium community and if you are looking for the event that created so many "rabid" fans and angry detractors this was probably it.

This was the year of the first POH and I don't remember if the crisis was public before it happened but I do remember that it was clear when you got there that PB was in trouble. My friend Fred and I attended and most of the people I have talked to over the years have agreed that there was almost like something was in the air. When we were driving to the airport Fred and I even talked about what would happen when PB went out of business. Not if, when. This was especially clear if you attended VIP Friday (yes VIP was Friday back then). The big discussion and Q&A that night was held in what I believe was Kevin's living area, yes Kevin appeared to be living in the old warehouse back then.

In the immediate aftermath of the CoT several books were either pushed back or dropped entirely, which was understandable at the time. Prior to this point they were publishing 4-5 books a year, not including Rifters. After the CoT there was a very noticeable drop in the number of releases (there was a thread a few years ago here that, if you can find it, I had posted how many first-printing books in my collection were published each year, from about 1990 up until the year of that thread). So for the first couple years the vast majority of people here were understanding of the delays.

Then the economy took its hit, which seemed to push release dates back even further. So whenever someone asked something like "Hey, what's up with those two books for the new BTS?" the default answer seemed to be "CoT" with the secondary answer being "the economy sucks right now." Add to that with every Rifter, with every newsletter, and with every weekly update Palladium seemed to be saying that they were going to release several books this year, but by the time the year ended there were only three or four (at best) new books that year. This all began to sour the fanbase and led to what those two threads were talking about.

To be fair to the critics here PB was always behind on their release schedule even before the Crisis but you are definitely correct that after the Crisis fewer books overall were released and with greater delays.

[Shark_Force]

i don't know of any year where they said they definitely were planning 24 books, but there was definitely a year where they promised 12 books and up to an additional 12 beyond that.

i mean, it didn't happen, obviously. kevin would need to be in full creative mode and just never sleep. and probably spend a while in the astral plane for that sweet sweet time compression. even if everything was going perfectly. but they did say they were going to. and, oddly enough, some people got real snippy when anyone suggested it was unrealistic, as i recall, even though (as noted) the realistic expectation was 3-5 books a year. i'm not sure of what year that was, but it would have been back before anything had been published for splicers beyond the core book, because i recall there were supposed to be like 6 splicers books in the mix.

i don't recall anyone bringing up a "cabal of 24" at the time, but i suppose it's possible i just didn't notice.

[Daniel Stoker]

I get what you're saying here but I just can't get that worked up about it. I mean we see this everywhere do we know when Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 is coming out? or how about those Avatar sequels? This happens in all creative endeavors. I will see GoG3 even if it takes another 5 years but Avatar, it may have waited too long but that is there loss it didn't harm me in the slightest.

As far as I know all the books for the Minion War have been out for a few years now. Megaverse in Flames was the last main book and it came out in 2014, Heroes of Humanity was loosely connected and it came out in 2016. Yes 7 years from first book to last is a long time but again this is life, more specifically Carl Gleba's life. He has a job and a family and the entire series was his idea so when his life slowed his writing it slowed the release schedule. This actual goes to one of points that I have made often and that is PB (and this applies to Star Wars and other things too) can never win. When MW slowed down after I believe the 3rd book KS could have tried to write it himself and get them out quicker but then he would have gotten destroyed by the "he is horrible to the freelancers" crowd. If he held on to finished books waiting to get all of them done before releasing them to guarantee no large gaps he would have been destroyed for that too. PB is like 4 people and a bunch of freelancers. Those freelancers all have lives that are probably more important then the book I want. (if you're a freelancer and you don't have a life more important then the next gaming book seek help immediately ) So I wait, is it convenient, no. I never got to finish the Minion War. My group stopped gaming 2 years before MiF came out. I barely got to use Dimensional Outbreak so I was one of the people who was SOL.

I criticize PB for a lot. Look at some of my recent posts on Phase World to see that. I just know that PB isn't big enough to really do the things I want them to do so I just enjoy what I can.

For some reason I had this idea that there was a final book in the series waiting to come out like Aftermath, but I guess not. That being said I'm not sure you can compare Guardians of the Galaxy 3 to most of Palladium's release issues. Unless Kevin fired Kevin and then rehired himself, but Kevin couldn't work on his one book for Kevin because he took another job that he has to finish first.

I understand stuff getting delayed, but the near constant over promising as to what can be delivered gets old and is a let down even when I know it's not actually going to be what happens.

Speaking of books, how many non-Rifter titles did we get in 2019?


Daniel Stoker

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm a fan of Palladium, but I also want to be honest. The Cabal of 24 is often critical and calls BS on a lot of things Palladium says/claims. They're often dismissed as overly critical and not real fans. Sadly, time often proves their statements correct. Most of the Cabal of 24 are fans (or at least were, as some or many may have moved on by now), but they don't like being lied to or listening to Palladium claim something that is highly improbable (especially when time has proven Palladium's claim to be inaccurate time and time again). Some of their criticisms were a bit more aggressive, harsh, and/or rude, but that didn't necessarily make them entirely untrue either.

Example 1*: Palladium would claim they'd release 24 books in a year. Others would respond there's no way, that Palladium has only been releasing 3-4 books a year (not counting Rifters, when that was still a thing), and they're probably going to release only 3-4 books a year. Everyone dismisses the naysayers as being negative and not knowing what's going on behind Palladium's doors. A year later, Palladium has only released 3 to 4 books (maybe 2 if things were really slow, or 5 if they were really on a roll), not counting Rifters.

You should love this, I'm calling BS. What year did PB ever say they were releasing 24 books in a year? I have all the Rifters and every catalogue since 1994 and when I was trying to make a list of promised books that were never released the most I ever saw was maybe 8 plus Rifters. Source, reference?

Greetings and Salutations. I was going through threads before posting, and the 24 books came up. I'm not sure which of the threads off hand, as I don't want to spend hours searching a second time. I'll go into why I took the number at face value after I provide more source information.

Kevin, via his Weekly Updates.

My gut said it would've been 2009 or 2010, but when I went to check the old Weekly Updates I discovered Palladium's site doesn't go back that far which will make it hard to verify. On the other hand, this is the oldest (first Weekly Update of the year, as those were his time to give the most unrealistic numbers) I could find: https://www.palladiumbooks.com/about-pa ... ary-5-2012

There we have ...

You will agree when you see:

Rifts® Lemuria
Dead Reign™ Sourcebook 3: Endless Dead™
Rifts® Vampires Sourcebook
Robotech® Genesis Pits™
Rifts® Black Market
Rifts® Northern Gun™
Rifts® Megaverse® in Flames

And those are just the notable books we have planned for the first 3-4 months of 2012. I’ll see to it that ALL our game lines are supported.

My goal for 2012 is to make Palladium strong once and for all. That means one or two new releases every month. We are in a position to do just that. I’m feeling good and I’m highly motivated. So is Palladium’s amazing gallery of freelance writers and artists. Greatness awaits.

So in this one Weekly Update, he suggests 7 books in 3-4 months, and also states later that there will be 1-2 new releases every month.

Math: 1-2 releases a month, and 12 months, means he expects 12-24 releases in that year. He also stated 7 books in the first 3-4 months. If we go on the longer side (4 months), that's 7 books, plus the 8 months remaining (on the low end of 1 book a month) for a minimum of 15 books by Kevin's estimation. If we use the 7 books as our guideline, by the end of the year he'll have 21-28 books released.

These kinds of estimates were common around the time. He has gotten better (I think, though I admit I don't pay attention to his release dates much anymore). Again, I can't go back to the start of year Weekly Update beyond that (so 2011 and before isn't on Palladium's site). Also, the updates that are posted are truncated (the bottom sections where he shows upcoming books and lists estimated dates is cut off, for example). Some people (at the time) made it a habit to look at how many books Kevin estimated, and how many he actually released. So when someone said 24, I was inclined to believe them. But if it makes you feel better ...

Example 1*: Palladium would claim they'd release a minimum of 15 books in a year. Others would respond there's no way, that Palladium has only been releasing 3-4 books a year (not counting Rifters, when that was still a thing), and they're probably going to release only 3 to 4 books a year. Everyone dismisses the naysayers as being negative and not knowing what's going on behind Palladium's doors. A year later, Palladium has only released 3 to 4 books (maybe 2 if things were really slow, or 5 if they were really on a roll), not counting Rifters.

I'd prefer in the future you actually ask for support before you just claiming my statements are BS. I'm not here to make up lies about Palladium.

Many old members of the forums had "Member of the Cabal of 24" in their signature and from everything I remember back then this was a group that labeled themselves. If you have some reference to a nefarious plot to silence them could you reference it.

I wouldn't call it "a nefarious plot" (which is an attempt to simply belittle a statement by making it sound ridiculous), but more propaganda.

Now, some members did proudly associate themselves with the Cabal of 24, but I do believe the name was first attributed to them (though I also claimed I wasn't 100% sure on the origins in my original post). I recall comments along the lines of how it's just the same 24 people always complaining, and it was just because they kept complaining that it seemed like something more. Anecdotal at best, so I'll provide this as well ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117473&p=2259226#p2259226

Palladium should email those several hundred people who do not want any system changes and implore them to become involved in their local conventions, RPG forums and game store events.

Maybe then the Silent Majority will be heard by potential customers instead of the Cabal of 24."

Now I'm not sure if that was meant honestly or ironically. Either way, they both indicate there have been claims of a "Silent Majority" that disagrees with the Cabal of 24 (in this particular case, regarding rule changes). With the whole forum board pruning, I'm not sure if I can go back far enough to pull up all the support of how things first came to be.

As for loosing fans it works both ways. The boards got so toxic from the Cabal that many people simply stopped coming. I got so tired of every single discussion becoming a diatribe about how evil Kevin is that I stopped coming. I was gone so long they deleted my old account and most of my old gaming group never came back. People who constantly crap on product are not going to get people to buy it but they will drive away people that just want to have a conversation.

Completely agreed. I didn't say they were the greatest group ever. I referred to some as "aggressive, harsh, and/or rude." The thread*jackings were particularly annoying to me personally. But I won't dismiss them and say there weren't fans, nor will I say they were just armchair quarter backs because they weren't directly in the know.

Now, on a side note, you're talking about leaving these forums but still playing (which sounds like is the case with you). What I'm talking about is constantly calling them not fans, acting like they have no clue what they're talking about (even though they had valid points), literally trying to get rid of them as customers entirely, threatening physical violence against them if they ever met them in person. So when I say lose them as fans, I'm not talking about no longer posting on these forums. Some have been lost as customers entirely.

As I said originally, I don't entirely agree with EITHER side. But if someone is going to disparage them, I feel the need to offer the counter-point since I'm not sure how many are still around to defend themselves.

Oh and the only reason I decided to even respond to this was "rabid" and "blind" to describe people who were critical of the Cabal so your point is proven, that language does make people more critical and not less.

No, I used the word "blind" to describe people who take issue with someone pointing out Palladium isn't going to release 15+ books a year, or are argue that the rules are flawless, etc. I used the word "rabid" to describe those who hijacked threads even worse than the Cabal and turned any criticism into a war against the unfaithful.

And I should clarify that not all Defenders of the Faith were blind and rabid, but enough were that by the end I'd say they were far worse than the Cabal. As stated, I didn't like some stuff about the Cabal. Sometimes, I'd even take the stance of defending Palladium. But before the end, I'd find myself defending the Cabal (or others in general) against the Defenders because they were the more aggressive and vile of the two (in my opinion). You claim to have left and stopped coming here because of the Cabal. So maybe you didn't see some of the stuff that happened. And if you didn't, great, but then don't try to act like you know everything that happened.

If you have questions, then ask. If you have facts to prove something I said wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong. So far you've made accusations first, then ask for proof to disprove your accusations without having the courtesy to do so yourself. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Prysus]

And gods forbid it's something like the Megaverse in Flames series where if you want to run the whole story you're SOL. Speaking of that... where is that series now? Did it get the last book and my brain is just mush?


Daniel Stoker

Greetings and Salutations. Speaking of the Megaverse in Flames... Bundle of Holding: Minion War! If you like PDF versions, this is a good time to get the whole the series for a great deal. If you go for the bonus level, you can also get Heroes of Humanity a bit with the after.*

*Rifts is not my area of expertise, but from what I gather I think the Minion War was supposed to be big enough to continue having ripple effects after its conclusion. So while (I believe) Heroes of Humanity touches on it, future books may also do so.

Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Shark_Force]

just checked, if you want to find it, the wayback machine goes back to well before 2009.

here's a good example:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090208104 ... 8-12e.html

(quoting the relevant portion here - minor editing to include extra blank lines where the web page apparently didn't need them but a text version kinda does)

The following titles are all tentatively scheduled for release in 2009. We have not yet reviewed and assessed all the manuscripts in our hands, nor have we determined the exact release schedule, but most of the books listed should appear sometime in 2009. Our initial focus will be the Minion War™ series of books, Rifts®, Robotech®, Mysteries of Magic™, Nightbane®, Dead Reign™ sourcebooks, and Warpath™: Urban Jungle™ RPG.

We may add or change some of the titles to be released, but the following list should be pretty accurate. Meanwhile, other titles for Palladium’s various game lines are also in development.

Listed in no particular order:
The Palladium Fantasy RPG®

Mysteries of Magic™ – a series of sourcebooks for the Palladium Fantasy RPG®, with at least three coming out in 2009. New spells, magic items, history and more. Plus at least one other sourcebook for the fantasy line.
Horror RPG Lines

Nightbane® Survival Guide sourcebook – should be out before Spring. It is the first sourcebook for Nightbane® in years. Hopefully, another will follow in the Fall.

Dead Reign™ Sourcebooks – the Zombie Apocalypse continues with 2-4 sourcebooks planned for 2009. Two are already in the works.

Beyond the Supernatural™ – this line is NOT abandoned, but whether you’ll see anything for it in 2009 is hard to say.

Rifts® Minion War™ series – to be completed in 2009

Dimension Book 11: Dyval™ – January, 2009.
Dimension Book 12: Dimensional Outbreak™ – March, 2009.
Rifts® Heroes of the Megaverse® – April or May, 2009.
Dimension Book 13: Armageddon Unlimited™ – HU2 crossover; Summer, 2009.
Rifts® Megaverse® in Flames™ (the final chapter) – Fall, 2009.
Rifts® Sourcebooks:

Rifts® Shemarrian Nation™
Rifts® Delta Blues/Deep South™
Rifts® Dark Woods™
Rifts® Voodoo
Rifts® Triax™ 2
Rifts® Lemuria
Fleets of the Three Galaxies™
And there are others under consideration.

Robotech®

The Masters Saga™ – February, 2009.
New Generation™ Sourcebook
Spacecraft of Robotech®
Other Robotech® sourcebooks are in development.
Warpath™: Urban Jungle™ RPG

A new role-playing game of modern combat. We’re shooting for a Spring or Summer, 2009 release. Written by Jeffry Scott Hansen, Jason Marker & Kevin Siembieda.
More?

There are other books that have been submitted or are being finished by the freelance writers, so we may add some titles or replace one with another.

so, let's break that down for you:

- at least three mysteries of magic books.
- at least one additional palladium fantasy sourcebook.
- one or two nightbane sourcebooks
- two to four dead reign sourcebooks
- possibly one beyond the supernatural sourcebook.
- five books from the megaverse in flames series
- seven (or more) rifts sourcebooks
- three (or more) robotech sourcebooks
- warpath urban jungle RPG

3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 7 + 3 + 1 = 23

so that right there is between 23 and 26 (i didn't count the BtS book as he admitted it might not happen that year), with kevin feeling optimistic that they might change (not remove) or ADD more books to that list as time went on.

that isn't *exactly* 24, on the dot, but i don't think it's unfair to describe this as kevin predicting they'd release 24 books that year. oh, and also, that count didn't include any rifters.

also, this isn't the one i was remembering. like i said, i'm pretty sure there was a year where kevin promised something along the lines of 6 books for the splicers setting alone, never mind all the other settings, with a potential total for 24 (but that year 24 was the high end of the prediction, not almost the low end). this kind of thing was not an isolated event.

because just to be clear:

We may add or change some of the titles to be released, but the following list should be pretty accurate. Meanwhile, other titles for Palladium’s various game lines are also in development.

this was the minimum he was expecting. he was thinking they might add to that (or change, but not decrease, what was being released), and there were things "in development" that he hadn't even included in this estimate.

now, don't get me wrong. i like palladium. warts and all. but a key part of that has been that i recognize the things palladium doesn't do well, and accept it. i don't get mad when they miss their release dates by a mile, because they've been doing that for years and years, and i'd have to be crazy to think they're suddenly going to stop now. i don't get frustrated when their rules or editing are unclear or contradictory, because they've been doing that for years too, and i know that, and frankly, everyone else who has been a fan for very long should know that too. i know what i'm getting, and i accept that; in the meanwhile, the setting material is really cool and i love to imagine my characters in those settings, so i'm going to keep on being a fan. but that doesn't mean i need to pretend they're perfect.

[Tiree]

IIRC the Cabal of 24 didn't self claim that title. Instead it was Carl Gleba in the post mentioned above was the first instance of that.

I am a fan of Palladium. I am also critical of Palladium. I can be both, and I am both. I want Palladium to succeed, grow, and prosper - Just like every other fan here. I also want the rules tightened up, rehash of the same material removed, some simple republications. Revision numbers on the website for what is the current print run, so people can get their shadow updates updated.

I still think one of the quickest easiest things for Palladium to do, is grab all their 'Official' Material that is in every Rifter, and bundle them for each game line: Rifter: Rifts, Rifter: Heroes Unlimited, Rifter: <insert game system of choice>

[Prysus]

I still think one of the quickest easiest things for Palladium to do, is grab all their 'Official' Material that is in every Rifter, and bundle them for each game line: Rifter: Rifts, Rifter: Heroes Unlimited, Rifter: <insert game system of choice>

Greetings and Salutations. From a recent Weekly Update:

https://palladiumbooks.com/about-pallad ... ary-3-2020

COMING: Rifter® inspired sourcebooks. We are also planning to release compilations of adventures and source material from issues of The Rifter®, re-edited and tweaked to make them “official” sourcebooks for Rifts®, Palladium Fantasy®, Nightbane®, After the Bomb®, Heroes Unlimited, Splicers®, and other settings!

With the Rifter ending, at least for a while, seems like Palladium finally agrees. There's no estimated date (which is probably a good thing), but at least they're talking about doing it. Farewell and safe journeys.

[jaymz]

I was/am a cabal member. I'm probably viewed as one of its ringleaders for all I know. We were labelled as such by those who refuse to acknowledge anything critical or flaws with Palladium, for daring to point out those flaws and criticisms. Being told we know nothing because we are not there or part of the process. I do not need to be a professional musician or artist to know if a piece of music or art sucks. I also do not have to run a specific business to know if something is a good or bad frickin idea.

I can tell you straight up the "defenders" were much more toxic and aggressive towards us than we were towards them (I never once received a warning for my behaviour while several of them did)

No one here has any real idea the vilification I received for basically embarrassing Kevin and company into putting up a company Facebook page months sooner than they wanted too (The excuse was it would take way to many man hours of work to do.....newsflash it doesn't). This was nearly ten years ago They STILL haven't figured out to make social media benefit them....

Furthermore, for a bunch of people "who don't know what we are talking about because we aren't there" we have been proven right the VAST majority of the time and even when not completely right we had parts of it right. Sound like people who don't know what they are talking about to you?

Not only that the "defenders of the faith", as they got labelled in return, were fewer in number generally speaking, than we were....and were comprised of the biggest suck ups and sycophants that are close to Kevin BECAUSE they are those very things (suck up and sycophants) and even THEN some of us knew more than they did WITHOUT being there (RRT and not having the money to actually do wave two being the biggest example of that). How? Because some of us knew how to ask the right questions to the right people.

Prysus was the most accurate in regards to the basics of what we were.

The Defenders would have you believe we hate Palladium. I cannot speak to others but me personally? I wouldn't have been running 3 palladium Facebook groups, a separate board mostly comprised of Palladium material, a Personal wiki with 1000+ articles for palladium's rules, worked with others as part of the team doing the errata and dealing with the FAQ for RRT, running a wiki for RRT to compile and centralize resources for players, and head up a team to try and launch an organized play program for Palladium fantasy if I hated Palladium or their games. I still oversee a Facebook group and have my personal and the RRT wiki.

We have, most of us anyway, criticized and have been critical of Palladium....and rightfully so. We have pointed out flaws, most of it politely, at least at first. We have foreshadowed problems. We have tried to make others understand. Eventually you stop caring about being nice. When you keep getting told you are a hater and have no idea what you are talking about even though you have been proven right time and time and time again? you stop being nice and tell people off instead.

We cared. We WANTED them to strive not just survive. We tried to help only to be ignored because those same "Defenders" were and are the same people that have the ear of and are stroking the ego of those at the top and telling them "nah keep doing what you're doing". Those that labelled us were happy with the status quo. We were not. In business, let alone gaming, you evolve or die. Take a hard look around and tell me, how is Palladium REALLY doing in the RPG market these days doing things the same old way? Are they even top 20 anymore let alone top 10?

So I keep doing what I do. I do not post on these forums much anymore. I post more in Sound off if anything (the only place I think I have received warnings from).

I am sure they will keep doing what they do.

After all the above....who's the one doing damage? Cabalist "Hater" or Defender "fan"?

I'll be on my own spaces "hating Palladium" by playing it's games and writing more material and conversions for my wiki using their rules.



/rant

[Pepsi Jedi]

I too am a 'member' of the Cabal.

No. I am not afraid.

As pointed out, the Cabal was ... labeled? Singled out? Attributed, by those that then became known as "Defenders of the Faith" or "White knights". Meaning the title was attributed to us. One that many such as myself sort of chuckled and shrugged and accepted.

Yes, the Cabal often pointed out the reality of situations. The most famous being the crowdsourcing efforts that popped up.

Yes "Defenders" SHREDDED The Cabal about it (And not just them. A few side handed comments came from Palladium itself too). Many many times the Cabal was criticized for "Armchair quarterbacking" and nitpicking. Thing is. When that would happen, the Cabal members would often restate their points, get shredded and told they knew nothing. Yadda yadda and the Cabal would go "ok. We'll see"

And as Jaymz points out, time and time and time again would be proven correct.

They pointed out the release dates for the first crowd sourcing didn't look right.

It pointed out to be DRAMATICALLY off.

It didn't help the money was taken and the books the money was for, where shelved and other books put out first....

They pointed out at the very very start of RTT that it was going to go bad. That it simply couldn't be as Palladium projected (Originally it was described as almost a turn key operation by Palladium with Ninja divison doing the work. Then it became quickly apparent after the fact that ND was just running the kickstarter itself and was not going to do all the work. Palldium was insensed, seeming to think they'd be keeping the million bucks for little to no effort). As RTT went on. time and again the Cabal was called out for being too critical. Time and again warnings were given. "This isn't how modern business works" "This is going to cost more money than they are saying" "This is going to take more time" "This shouldn't be done the way we're being told it'll be done"

Time and again our intelligence was attacked. We were mocked, derided, attacked. Time and again we brought up problems. Time and again we were told 'You're not there. You don't know SPIT!!"

And yet.... *Motions gently* RTT was a disaster. An utter disaster. I won't go into the 50 ways that broke down (it's been talked to death) but the cabal was not only proven correct but amazingly correct time after time. Point after point. For the latter ____YEARS_____ Of RTT, the Cabal was mocked, for saying "There will never be a wave 2. The money's gone" for YEARS Defenders berated and attacked the Cabal for that.

And yet. After Wave 1 was shipped out. Nothing ever happened. "We're looking for new ways to do ___" is not actual work. It's not actual progress. After wave 1 went out. Nothing happened with RTT till the end. And even THAT was a slap in the face, the way it went down.

Was this ever put out. "Oh gee sorry guys. We called you stupid in 25 different ways and attacked you repeatedly for warning us about this. it broke down just the way you said it would"

No.

And that's fine. Those of us that did the warning are used to it. But interestingly enough.... when ever we bring up warnings, we're shouted down again and again.

Yes. When we point out "The 24... or 20... or 18... or 15.. or 12 books Kevin says are coming out this year... aren't going to happen guys. check it. They put out 2-4 books a year on a good year these days" we're labeled "haters". We're still told we don't know what we're talking about.

Back in the day many of us were advocates of PDFs. We were told we were STUPID, that Kevin/Palladium were BOOK PUBLISHERS. We were just fans, and stupid ones at that.

A member of STAFF, not a defender mind you but Palladium staff came on the forums and told us all... "PDFs/Ereaders are JUST A FAD" That they had industry insider information and it wasn't worth palladium's time to try and get in on it.

For YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS We were told the other reason palladium didn't do PDFs was that Kevin/Palladum was scared of Piracy. That if they did PDF's that they'd be pirated and noone would buy the books. This went on for ---years--- ___after__ Kevin and Palladium were ___shown___ their books were already out there online for free via illegal PDFs. That they already WERE out there. That if palladium Made PDFs it would be new (Free) money for Palladium that they weren't getting. We were not listened to for well over a decade.

Yes there was the "Facebook" Thing. Where again, staff came out and stated that Palladium didn't have a facebook page because it would take a staffer, three WEEKS to set one up, working 9-5 doing so, and they couldn't spare the man hours. The response was Jaymz putting up a facebook group in under an hour, while also helping his son with a lego set.

Palladium quickly got a facebook group after that.

The list goes on and on.

So yes, there is/was a division. The Cabal are critical. The Defenders/White Knights tend to be overaggressive in 'defending' Palladium.

Both are out of a like(love?) of palladium. if the Cabal didn't like palladium (As many claim) they wouldn't waste their time trying to make it better. People don't stick around a property for three or more decades just to 'hate' on it. They're adults, and there's always politics. Why would they focus on a tiny RPG company? Bigger and better targets are out there if that's all they want to do.

The Defenders... like palladium. perhaps a bit 'too much' as they often turn a blind eye to faults and attack any that point them out.

Can the Cabal be overcritical? Sure. After decades of history, it happens. Often they're correct, but sure they(We) CAN be overly critical. It's a matter of being punch-shy. After you get hit so many times, you expect the punch. After you've been lied to so often, it's hard to believe the people talking to you.

So yes, the Cabal exists, we're still out here, though as stated, many have simply wandered off. Palladum's release schedule keeps shrinking and now they're even talking about rehashing more Rifter stuff to 'official' even though they've what.. 10... 15 books in the line up that people have been waiting YEARS to be finished?

People do age out of Hobbies. Some of us have been playing palladium games for THREE DECADES or more. We're in our 40s+. If the company only puts out a book or two a year, people wander off. I know I'm around this board much less than I used to be. heck they cut my post count by well over half during the forum migration. I've had tens of thousands of posts on this board but less now than there used to be.

No real point in debating the same minutia 3 decades in a row, an with less and less new content coming out, less and less to talk about.

Some of us are still here though. Some of us still care.

[jaymz]

And why is NMI PROUD to not be a member?

Thanks in advance!
Captain Nibbz

I forgot about this....with all the above information i will let you decide on your own why NMI would be proud not to be a a Cabal member. I can and will go into further detail if you wish to contact me privately here or via email or facebook.

[Tiree]

I still think one of the quickest easiest things for Palladium to do, is grab all their 'Official' Material that is in every Rifter, and bundle them for each game line: Rifter: Rifts, Rifter: Heroes Unlimited, Rifter: <insert game system of choice>

Greetings and Salutations. From a recent Weekly Update:

https://palladiumbooks.com/about-pallad ... ary-3-2020

COMING: Rifter® inspired sourcebooks. We are also planning to release compilations of adventures and source material from issues of The Rifter®, re-edited and tweaked to make them “official” sourcebooks for Rifts®, Palladium Fantasy®, Nightbane®, After the Bomb®, Heroes Unlimited, Splicers®, and other settings!

With the Rifter ending, at least for a while, seems like Palladium finally agrees. There's no estimated date (which is probably a good thing), but at least they're talking about doing it. Farewell and safe journeys.

Thanks! I haven't looked at a weekly update in years. I just can't get my hopes up and get them swatted down for failure to perform. It's just not worth it in the long run.

Jaymz and Pepsi, thank you for going in a bit more depth. One thing that people forget, sometimes Criticism comes from Fans that Care. And those who have stayed on these boards all these years, really do care. But criticism and feedback can only be heard by those willing to listen. Listening is a skill that unfortunately people in general have a hard time learning.

[Captain_Nibbz]

Hey, thanks for all the replies everyone. There was a lot more to this answer than I was expecting. It is very nice to have this perspective and it actually kind of explains a lot about some of the sentiments that I've heard in the past regarding the forums and the company.

[strtkwr]

And, one last thing. You notice that the white knight was proven wrong on several points. He then stopped responding. No admission that he was wrong for calling BS. No apology. Thats how these conversations usually went back then. The “Cabal” would say something that was negative, the white knights/defenders would jump all over it, and would then ignore how wrong they were when they were proven wrong. So of the two groups, in my opinion, the defenders were the worst.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Which is, what was pointed out Zero.

When the "Defenders" would say stuff, and were countered by members of the Cabal of 24 and proven wrong, the Defenders leave with out acknowledging their mistakes and false claims.

Like your own claim about armchair quarterbacking with out knowing what's going on, or criticizing the business decisions because we knew better, which have been pointed out time and again to be correct. It was pointed out by more than one person that the Cabal was often right after such 'callous' statements that they didn't know what they were talking about. But the Defenders simply run away or disappear vs own up to that.

Thank you for proving the point.

[strtkwr]

I think that this question has been sufficiently answered by both sides of the equation. Thanks again for all your input everyone, but I think we might want to let this thread die before a fight is actually started

. Now, where is the fun in that.

[jaymz]

I've already butted heads with Jaymz, and I'd rather not keep doing so every time I come on here. I see him enter a thread, I leave the thread. Its that simple.

huh, apparently I have the power to force people to not post in threads.....who knew.....

[Josh Hilden]

I was part of the start as well, and I coined the name. Jaymz, Pepsi, and a lot of people I can't think of right now were there at the very beginning. I was pretty active until I burned out most of my anger and let my involvement peter out. I think we did more good than harm.

[strtkwr]

Omg. Was just reading through the link Prysus provided above. I had forgotten how desperately the white knights tried to justify bad business practices, like missing your self-imposed, announced deadlines 100% of the time.

[Prysus]

I was part of the start as well, and I coined the name.

Greetings and Salutations. Exactly how was the name coined? I mean, is there a story that led up to it? As this question comes up every few years, I am curious (for factual purposes and referencing this thread later). I admit I'm fuzzy on the details at this point and any help is appreciated. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Josh Hilden]

It just sounded cool to me.

To put a cap on it from my end. In retrospect it all seems kinda pointless and more than a little childish. The sentiments behind all of that were sincere from my end but they were fueled by anger and bitterness.

Would I do it again?

No, probably not.

But I never think about it now. This little thread has been nostalgic but it's been a long time since that era has meant much to me.

[Daniel Stoker]

Looking at that thread reminded me where I went back back and forth with one of the other posters (I want to say Sureshot, but don't hold me to it at all) who was angry about the second Beyond the Supernatural book still not being out and me buying it from him at the time, sure that while the book was crazy late at the time it would be out. If you had told me then that by 2020 it still wouldn't be out let alone on the horizon I would have told you you were crazy.


Daniel Stoker

[jaymz]

ok so some questioned the veracity of things we would rail against. THIS is quoted directly from the newest weekly update:

" As for me (Kevin), my main focus is finishing In the Face of Death™ for Dead Reign®, our Zombie Apocalypse RPG (dedicating 7-9 hours a day to it, before I stop to address other matters for a few hours), but I am also orchestrating the production of six books in various stages of production for release over the next 3-4 months: Rifts® CS Manhunters, Chaos Earth® Psychic Scream™, and Rifts® Titan Robotics™ you already know about. Plus three sourcebooks I have freelancers actively working on right now. "

Now do the math.....that's 7 books in 3-4 months. SEVEN. That is a pace 21-28 books for the year if they actually do it. palladium has NEVER put out books at that pace. EVER. Not only that...I know writers who write for a living as well as a couple of editors. I've asked them about Kevin's "work load" and it is their educated opinion it is an outright lie. That much time devoted to writing books means he should have a book written and complete waiting for art at least every month and he does not.

Now before anyone starts with "well he has to run his business too", newsflash the quote above addresses that. He says he spends 7-9 hours working on books THEN spends a few hours on other matters. That is 35-45 hours per 5 day week of writing (or 49-63 with how often he talks about 7 day work weeks) and only 15 ish hours (21 on those 7 day work weeks) doing other matters. If I had 7-9 hours per day to just write stuff I guarantee I'd get more done than Kevin does. I mean Kevin has in the past BRAGGED about getting a dozen pages written and that that is him being "on fire" with creativity and writing....in a week....

Look I love the games. I wouldn't have over 1000 articles for this system on my personal wiki if I didn't. However, it is THIS stuff that drives us nuts because we KNOW it is B/S and any reasonable thinking person can tell it is yet for nearly two decades we (the "cabal") have been told by those who defend it (as well as those AT the company because trust me, I am pretty much persona non grata in those offices since I bailed on the things I was helping with) that we have no idea what we are talking about even WITH two decades of precedent setting evidence showing we are in fact correct. Repeatedly.

THAT is why/how the "cabal" came to exist and frankly, still does...just with fewer of us still giving a shyte about this company.