Origin of Species

[Warshield73]

Is there anything in the books about when certain species arrived on Palladium and how they got there? I gather from the timeline certain races were not always on Palladium but I can't find when they arrived and if there are legends about how it happened.

I am specifically looking for information on Wolfen but if there is something in one of the books about humans that would be cool to.

[Library Ogre]

Is there anything in the books about when certain species arrived on Palladium and how they got there? I gather from the timeline certain races were not always on Palladium but I can't find when they arrived and if there are legends about how it happened.

I am specifically looking for information on Wolfen but if there is something in one of the books about humans that would be cool to.

In some cases, it's not entirely clear. For example, humans are first noted in the PFRPG timeline (p. 281) about 14,000 years ago, but that doesn't mean that they weren't there before then. Likewise, ogres seem to pop up about 4100 years ago, but, again, they might have existed long before that. Canines are 2354 years ago... but, again, did they ARRIVE then, or have they always lived in the North, and just were ignored? There's not a lot of concrete information.

[Warshield73]

Is there anything in the books about when certain species arrived on Palladium and how they got there? I gather from the timeline certain races were not always on Palladium but I can't find when they arrived and if there are legends about how it happened.

I am specifically looking for information on Wolfen but if there is something in one of the books about humans that would be cool to.

In some cases, it's not entirely clear. For example, humans are first noted in the PFRPG timeline (p. 281) about 14,000 years ago, but that doesn't mean that they weren't there before then. Likewise, ogres seem to pop up about 4100 years ago, but, again, they might have existed long before that. Canines are 2354 years ago... but, again, did they ARRIVE then, or have they always lived in the North, and just were ignored? There's not a lot of concrete information.

Truthfully the time scale of PFRPG never made much sense to me, seemed too long for so little advancement.

But the dates are what I'm finding, I thought maybe there were legends like 'the Wolfen were brought to Palladium through the mountain arch by the great god Larry and his brothers Daryl and Daryl' or something like that. I have almost all of the 1e and 2e PFRPG books but the only ones I have read recently is Mysteries of Magic and Library at Bletherad so I was hoping there was something I had missed.

I had always assumed PF was made up of two different groups of races. 1) Those created by or brought there by the old ones. 2) Those that arrived by accident or were brought there by deities after the old ones. Is this incorrect?

[Library Ogre]

I had always assumed PF was made up of two different groups of races. 1) Those created by or brought there by the old ones. 2) Those that arrived by accident or were brought there by deities after the old ones. Is this incorrect?

You may be right. We're not sure. Lots is shrouded in antiquity and myth.

[kiralon]

I think the tris1tine chronicles mentions something about the wolfen and the elves and that maybe the elves were their creators, but i could be mixing it up with an adventure, but i'd probably check em if you got the books, however blurbs like that ted to pop up in any of the books, including (or especially) ones that aren't wolfen related.

[Veknironth]

Well, I don't have the books on me but I remember that the elves were created by the Old Ones, and probably the Wolfen. The Elves were the helpers of the Old ones until they joined the Dragons in revolt. The Wolfen were definitely created, but I forget by whom. I know the Wolfen are much younger as a race.

-Vek
"Yin Sloth might have that history."

[Kraynic]

The Kankoran entry in the Monsters and Animals book indicates that the Kankoran believe their race was started by the Elves:

One of the great legends of the Kankoran is that they were created by the elves in the distant past. For this reason they re­spect elves and will go out of their way to help them.

I'm not sure where I got the idea, but I had the impression that the 3 canine races were an elven attempt at shock troops to counter the dwarven rune weapons.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are some races in the LotD 1 that have Origen stories. Most of them thou are "the OO made them."

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, there are a few references in the PF2 main book for starters.

PF2, page 277, The Age of Light: "During this period, most of the known modern races are known to have surfaced, including humans, changelings, kobolds, dwarves, gnomes, troglodytes, goblins, hob-goblins, bug bears, trolls, minotaur, and the giant races, as well as a handful of others.
Rifts and ley line activity during this period was roughly equal to that of Rifts Earth; perhaps 10-50% greater. Many of the different races, particularly creatures of magic and supernatural beings, may have discovered the Palladium World through magic and dimensional portals during this period. Some may have been refugees, while others may have been dimensional travelers or wanderers, while still others (like the Gromek of modern times) could have been victims of dimensional anomalies that swept them from their homeworld in other dimensions tot he Palladium world, with little hope of returning."

Note: Off the top of my head, Changelings and Minotaur were both noted as being possible minions and/or creations of the Old Ones, which would make their emergence after the Age of Chaos conflicting.

PF2, page 279, The Age of a Thousand Magicks: "In the north, the first howls of the canine races, Wolfen, Coyle and Kankoran, roared across the frozen tundra ..."
PF2, page 279, The Age of Elves: "In the North, the humanoid canines were forming warrior clans and covering the snow with blood. Ogres also came onto the scene ..."

PF2, page 281, Timeline:
"20,000 years ago - The emergence of humankind."
"12,000 years ago - The Wolfen and other canine races emerge in the Great Northern Wilderness."

Note: 20,000 years ago puts humankind into the Age of a Thousand Magicks, and 12,000 years ago puts Wolfen into the Age of Elves. This would either be a conflict with the previous section, or "emergence"/"emerge" in the timeline may indicates at least tribe-like behavior or noticed by other races.

I'll also note that humans were actually around during The Battle of the Gods (PF2, page 279). That's estimated around 80,000 to 90,000 years ago. This section further supports humans surfacing sometime during the Age of Light.

As noted above by others, there are rumors and theories and legends of Elves creating the Wolfen for the Elf-Dwarf War. There's little pieces here and there, and I believe there's a Rifter article that has that premise. This is going from memory, and I can try to track down some book and page numbers later if you're really interested. However, based on the information in the official material, it doesn't seem probable that Elves created the Wolfen (especially not thousands of years before the war people think they were created for, and indicated before the Age of Elves even began). At most, I'd suspect the Elves may have magically modified the existing races, but I doubt even this is true. More than likely what happened (if anything) is the Elves found them, tried to use them as shock troops (as an example) unleashing the dogs of war, and the other races said: "What is that?! The Elves created an abomination!" To me, saying the Elves created the Wolfen is like saying Columbus is the first person to step foot in the Americas. Some people may think it; but saying, believing it, and/or writing a book/article about it doesn't make it true.

In addition to the Old Ones creating races (and/or just transplanting races from other universes), the Elves and Dwarves summoned a fair bit of minions to help them fight during the Elf-Dwarf War. Some of these are mentioned in Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands (Gosai and Quorian being two races that come to mind).

Goblins, hob-goblins, kobolds, and orcs are distant cousins to Faerie Folk (PF2 page 299 states it as "believed", but Monsters & Animals page 58 lists it as a fact). So if they came about during the Age of Light, then it's probable either Faerie Folk in general arrived during this time (as noted, attracting Creatures of Magic), or the magic of the time may have caused those races to mutate (the Goblin Cobbler specifically mentions that Goblins used to have natural magical abilities, but those are lost).

Anyways, that's all for now. I need sleep. Those are some dates, as well as what we have. The typical answers are: Native to the planet, created (or summoned by) the Old Ones, summoned by the Elves or Dwarves during their war, or the same way all those races get to Rifts Earth? Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Warshield73]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, there are a few references in the PF2 main book for starters.

PF2, page 277, The Age of Light: "During this period, most of the known modern races are known to have surfaced, including humans, changelings, kobolds, dwarves, gnomes, troglodytes, goblins, hob-goblins, bug bears, trolls, minotaur, and the giant races, as well as a handful of others.
Rifts and ley line activity during this period was roughly equal to that of Rifts Earth; perhaps 10-50% greater. Many of the different races, particularly creatures of magic and supernatural beings, may have discovered the Palladium World through magic and dimensional portals during this period. Some may have been refugees, while others may have been dimensional travelers or wanderers, while still others (like the Gromek of modern times) could have been victims of dimensional anomalies that swept them from their homeworld in other dimensions tot he Palladium world, with little hope of returning."

Note: Off the top of my head, Changelings and Minotaur were both noted as being possible minions and/or creations of the Old Ones, which would make their emergence after the Age of Chaos conflicting.

PF2, page 279, The Age of a Thousand Magicks: "In the north, the first howls of the canine races, Wolfen, Coyle and Kankoran, roared across the frozen tundra ..."
PF2, page 279, The Age of Elves: "In the North, the humanoid canines were forming warrior clans and covering the snow with blood. Ogres also came onto the scene ..."

PF2, page 281, Timeline:
"20,000 years ago - The emergence of humankind."
"12,000 years ago - The Wolfen and other canine races emerge in the Great Northern Wilderness."

Note: 20,000 years ago puts humankind into the Age of a Thousand Magicks, and 12,000 years ago puts Wolfen into the Age of Elves. This would either be a conflict with the previous section, or "emergence"/"emerge" in the timeline may indicates at least tribe-like behavior or noticed by other races.

I'll also note that humans were actually around during The Battle of the Gods (PF2, page 279). That's estimated around 80,000 to 90,000 years ago. This section further supports humans surfacing sometime during the Age of Light.

As noted above by others, there are rumors and theories and legends of Elves creating the Wolfen for the Elf-Dwarf War. There's little pieces here and there, and I believe there's a Rifter article that has that premise. This is going from memory, and I can try to track down some book and page numbers later if you're really interested. However, based on the information in the official material, it doesn't seem probable that Elves created the Wolfen (especially not thousands of years before the war people think they were created for, and indicated before the Age of Elves even began). At most, I'd suspect the Elves may have magically modified the existing races, but I doubt even this is true. More than likely what happened (if anything) is the Elves found them, tried to use them as shock troops (as an example) unleashing the dogs of war, and the other races said: "What is that?! The Elves created an abomination!" To me, saying the Elves created the Wolfen is like saying Columbus is the first person to step foot in the Americas. Some people may think it; but saying, believing it, and/or writing a book/article about it doesn't make it true.

In addition to the Old Ones creating races (and/or just transplanting races from other universes), the Elves and Dwarves summoned a fair bit of minions to help them fight during the Elf-Dwarf War. Some of these are mentioned in Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands (Gosai and Quorian being two races that come to mind).

Goblins, hob-goblins, kobolds, and orcs are distant cousins to Faerie Folk (PF2 page 299 states it as "believed", but Monsters & Animals page 58 lists it as a fact). So if they came about during the Age of Light, then it's probable either Faerie Folk in general arrived during this time (as noted, attracting Creatures of Magic), or the magic of the time may have caused those races to mutate (the Goblin Cobbler specifically mentions that Goblins used to have natural magical abilities, but those are lost).

Anyways, that's all for now. I need sleep. Those are some dates, as well as what we have. The typical answers are: Native to the planet, created (or summoned by) the Old Ones, summoned by the Elves or Dwarves during their war, or the same way all those races get to Rifts Earth? Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

Thanks for this. I had most of the information because my main source was the PFRPG main book but I had missed some of the inconsistencies which has given me a few ideas.

On a side note I had always thought the humans around during the Battle of the Gods were likely to be True Atlanteans (now maybe Lemurians) who were wiped out and then standard humans came in later. I thought there was something, maybe in Yin Sloth, that I read that indicated that but I couldn't find it.

I really thought that with all the information in the books about gods and churches that there would be a few creation myths but this information does help, thanks.

[Prysus]

On a side note I had always thought the humans around during the Battle of the Gods were likely to be True Atlanteans (now maybe Lemurians) who were wiped out and then standard humans came in later. I thought there was something, maybe in Yin Sloth, that I read that indicated that but I couldn't find it.

Greetings and Salutations. I think I recall a reference to True Atlanteans somewhere being wiped out by a plague. Might have been in Yin-Sloth Jungles book, but I don't recall off the top of my head. I can hunt down the details if you're really interested.

However, the humans involved in the Battle of the Gods was the Kawan. The Kawan "never discovered the use of magic." This information can be found in Yin-Sloth Jungles on page 7. The Tezcat are their descendants (Yin-Sloth Jungles, page 18).

Page 7 also mentions how some claim elves created humans through magic (kind of like that Wolfen claim, huh?), and states without question that this is wrong. Then it mentions how they were "free from the influence of the Old Ones," which may indicate humans had been around during the Age of Chaos, just not a prominent or well known race (though could just mean that all races were now free of the Old Ones).

Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Warshield73]

On a side note I had always thought the humans around during the Battle of the Gods were likely to be True Atlanteans (now maybe Lemurians) who were wiped out and then standard humans came in later. I thought there was something, maybe in Yin Sloth, that I read that indicated that but I couldn't find it.

Greetings and Salutations. I think I recall a reference to True Atlanteans somewhere being wiped out by a plague. Might have been in Yin-Sloth Jungles book, but I don't recall off the top of my head. I can hunt down the details if you're really interested.

However, the humans involved in the Battle of the Gods was the Kawan. The Kawan "never discovered the use of magic." This information can be found in Yin-Sloth Jungles on page 7. The Tezcat are their descendants (Yin-Sloth Jungles, page 18).

Page 7 also mentions how some claim elves created humans through magic (kind of like that Wolfen claim, huh?), and states without question that this is wrong. Then it mentions how they were "free from the influence of the Old Ones," which may indicate humans had been around during the Age of Chaos, just not a prominent or well known race (though could just mean that all races were now free of the Old Ones).

Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

Thanks for the reference. I broke out my Yin Sloth Jungle last night for the first time in years and read through some of the basics. The time scales still mess with me, 70,000 years between human civilizations seems really excessive in a dimension still using medieval tech. I mean humans didn't leave Africa until 50,000 years ago so wow the time scales.

[The Beast]

Greetings and Salutations. I think I recall a reference to True Atlanteans somewhere being wiped out by a plague. Might have been in Yin-Sloth Jungles book, but I don't recall off the top of my head. I can hunt down the details if you're really interested.

That's actually in the IatEotW book. The island the changeling colony is on was once inhabited by the Atlanteans, who were wiped out by a plague. IIRC, it says nothing about any other TA colonies or if that was the only one.

[The Beast]

Well, I don't have the books on me but I remember that the elves were created by the Old Ones, and probably the Wolfen. The Elves were the helpers of the Old ones until they joined the Dragons in revolt. The Wolfen were definitely created, but I forget by whom. I know the Wolfen are much younger as a race.

-Vek
"Yin Sloth might have that history."

The wolfen being created by the elves is hinted at in several books, but always as a rumor. However I do recall an italicized fluff piece that seemed to do more than hint about it (but didn't outright say it), but I don't recall if it was from a proper book or a Rifter issue.

[Warshield73]

That's actually in the IatEotW book.

What book is this?

[Library Ogre]

That's actually in the IatEotW book.

What book is this?

Island at the Edge of the World.

And, well, True Atlanteans became Ogres.

[Prysus]

That's actually in the IatEotW book.

What book is this?

Greetings and Salutations. Book 6: Island at the Edge of the World.

The time scales still mess with me, 70,000 years between human civilizations seems really excessive in a dimension still using medieval tech.

Personally, I always figured the elder races, the Elves in particular as one of the dominant races, kept them as slaves and prevented them from expanding much. The Kawan succeeded because no one else knew about them. And it wasn't until the fall of the Elves and Dwarves that humans were able to start to make some leeway. This probably doesn't help much, but maybe a little?

And since Mark Hall mentions Ogres, my theory for their origin actually went to a human tribe that a Troll decided to help liberate and convinced them to attack their Elf oppressors (the Troll was really just causing havoc). The tribe was turned back fairly easily by the more advanced Elven military and magic. Feeling betrayed, the Elves cursed them to appear as ugly on the outside as they were on the inside. This created the Ogres, and realizing they were tricked is what started the Ogre-Troll feud. But that is just my head canon. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Warshield73]

That's actually in the IatEotW book.

What book is this?

Greetings and Salutations. Book 6: Island at the Edge of the World.

The time scales still mess with me, 70,000 years between human civilizations seems really excessive in a dimension still using medieval tech.

Personally, I always figured the elder races, the Elves in particular as one of the dominant races, kept them as slaves and prevented them from expanding much. The Kawan succeeded because no one else knew about them. And it wasn't until the fall of the Elves and Dwarves that humans were able to start to make some leeway. This probably doesn't help much, but maybe a little?

And since Mark Hall mentions Ogres, my theory for their origin actually went to a human tribe that a Troll decided to help liberate and convinced them to attack their Elf oppressors (the Troll was really just causing havoc). The tribe was turned back fairly easily by the more advanced Elven military and magic. Feeling betrayed, the Elves cursed them to appear as ugly on the outside as they were on the inside. This created the Ogres, and realizing they were tricked is what started the Ogre-Troll feud. But that is just my head canon. Farewell and safe journeys.

Thanks, I figured out the book after looking through my PFRPG shelf. I love this book, I read it cover to cover when I first got it but I had forgotten most of what was in it.

As for the time frame there are a few sort of cataclysmic events that set things back but not that much. I have problems with the long time frames that have been established in the three galaxies / Phase World but those have some technological and magical advancement. This just seems overly stagnant.

[Library Ogre]

As for the time frame there are a few sort of cataclysmic events that set things back but not that much. I have problems with the long time frames that have been established in the three galaxies / Phase World but those have some technological and magical advancement. This just seems overly stagnant.

So, I can't remember if this made it into the published part of Mysteries of Magic or not, but, I do have a theory about the relative stagnation of Palladium, technologically. And that theory is Magic.

So, back in the Age of Light, magic levels were extremely high and, if Rifts Earth is anything to go by, that means a lot of monsters were MDC, while humans, elves, and dwarves remained their squishy selves. The big equalizer was magic. With magic, you could use Armor of Ithan and Fire Bolt to NOT DIE, which established magic, of all sorts, as the premiere technological path for most societies. If you had a kid who was smart as smart could be, you got them into magic. Glimmer of talent? Magic. Talks to rocks? Magic.

But magic tends to be an end unto itself. You don't need to develop the four-field system of agriculture if the Earth Warlock can just cast a spell and make your land fertile. You don't need to work out how to make steel if magic makes your pounded copper blades unbreakable. So, a lot of technological advancements stalled out because no one was working on them... magic was ubiquitous and easy and so no one bothered with the hard work of chemistry, metallurgy, or physics, beyond what they needed to.

Then fast forward to the Millennium of Purification, and, suddenly, there's a lot less magic in the world. There are fewer practitioners of fewer arts, and things that had been magicked away are now staring at you. You've also got an entire society of people who have entirely sworn off magic entirely, and they start looking for non-magical solutions to things. But they have to work out a lot of these problems by themselves, since other people are still using magic. So dwarves start building up the technological base of society out of necessity, because they've already rejected the prime technology of the world.

It is still a REALLY long time scale to work with, but less of a problem once you account for the late start that the physical sciences had on Palladium.

[Warshield73]

As for the time frame there are a few sort of cataclysmic events that set things back but not that much. I have problems with the long time frames that have been established in the three galaxies / Phase World but those have some technological and magical advancement. This just seems overly stagnant.

So, I can't remember if this made it into the published part of Mysteries of Magic or not, but, I do have a theory about the relative stagnation of Palladium, technologically. And that theory is Magic.

So, back in the Age of Light, magic levels were extremely high and, if Rifts Earth is anything to go by, that means a lot of monsters were MDC, while humans, elves, and dwarves remained their squishy selves. The big equalizer was magic. With magic, you could use Armor of Ithan and Fire Bolt to NOT DIE, which established magic, of all sorts, as the premiere technological path for most societies. If you had a kid who was smart as smart could be, you got them into magic. Glimmer of talent? Magic. Talks to rocks? Magic.

But magic tends to be an end unto itself. You don't need to develop the four-field system of agriculture if the Earth Warlock can just cast a spell and make your land fertile. You don't need to work out how to make steel if magic makes your pounded copper blades unbreakable. So, a lot of technological advancements stalled out because no one was working on them... magic was ubiquitous and easy and so no one bothered with the hard work of chemistry, metallurgy, or physics, beyond what they needed to.

Then fast forward to the Millennium of Purification, and, suddenly, there's a lot less magic in the world. There are fewer practitioners of fewer arts, and things that had been magicked away are now staring at you. You've also got an entire society of people who have entirely sworn off magic entirely, and they start looking for non-magical solutions to things. But they have to work out a lot of these problems by themselves, since other people are still using magic. So dwarves start building up the technological base of society out of necessity, because they've already rejected the prime technology of the world.

It is still a REALLY long time scale to work with, but less of a problem once you account for the late start that the physical sciences had on Palladium.

One of the few times I got to play PFRPG the GM was sending us on a quest connected to the Elf-Dwarf War. I, running the obligatory the Elven Longbowmen. I asked if we would even know anything about an event that ended 8,000 years ago. This still seems odd, even with the long lifespan of an elf.

See you can work the timelines with those things, the problem is it is just so long that even to and Elf, much less humans or dwarves, these events will have no relevance to people leaving in modern times. Put the battle of the Gods say 20,000 years ago, end the Elf-Dwarf War 5,000 years ago then line up everything else after that. All the sudden the development of both magic and tech makes some sense, not perfect but better and now all the sudden all these impossibly ancient events now have some resonance.

Just my opinion, worth less than normal as I don't get to play Fantasy that often.

[Library Ogre]

One of the few times I got to play PFRPG the GM was sending us on a quest connected to the Elf-Dwarf War. I, running the obligatory the Elven Longbowmen. I asked if we would even know anything about an event that ended 8,000 years ago. This still seems odd, even with the long lifespan of an elf.

See you can work the timelines with those things, the problem is it is just so long that even to and Elf, much less humans or dwarves, these events will have no relevance to people leaving in modern times. Put the battle of the Gods say 20,000 years ago, end the Elf-Dwarf War 5,000 years ago then line up everything else after that. All the sudden the development of both magic and tech makes some sense, not perfect but better and now all the sudden all these impossibly ancient events now have some resonance.

Just my opinion, worth less than normal as I don't get to play Fantasy that often.

As always, the fact that elven lifespans are ten times that of humans is illustrative. The Elf-Dwarf War ended, in human terms, 800 years ago... to an extent, it has about as much relevance as the Mongol invasions of southern and western Asia. I mean, sure, some folks are going to know a lot about that, but your average longbow man will be asking "Excuse me, do you know when the elves destroyed Baalgor?" outside of the Circle K.

[Warshield73]

One of the few times I got to play PFRPG the GM was sending us on a quest connected to the Elf-Dwarf War. I, running the obligatory the Elven Longbowmen. I asked if we would even know anything about an event that ended 8,000 years ago. This still seems odd, even with the long lifespan of an elf.

See you can work the timelines with those things, the problem is it is just so long that even to and Elf, much less humans or dwarves, these events will have no relevance to people leaving in modern times. Put the battle of the Gods say 20,000 years ago, end the Elf-Dwarf War 5,000 years ago then line up everything else after that. All the sudden the development of both magic and tech makes some sense, not perfect but better and now all the sudden all these impossibly ancient events now have some resonance.

Just my opinion, worth less than normal as I don't get to play Fantasy that often.

As always, the fact that elven lifespans are ten times that of humans is illustrative. The Elf-Dwarf War ended, in human terms, 800 years ago... to an extent, it has about as much relevance as the Mongol invasions of southern and western Asia. I mean, sure, some folks are going to know a lot about that, but your average longbow man will be asking "Excuse me, do you know when the elves destroyed Baalgor?" outside of the Circle K.

I guess for me the human stuff is just too much. 70,000 years for humans but little has changed. Again humans had barely left Africa 70,000 YA. The Western Empire has been around 5,800 years, that's almost a thousand years before Mesopotamia. The time scale is just way off for most species but it is still a fun read.

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm still positive that I read in one of the books that the Wolfen on Palladium are actually the descendants of a crashed ship from the Three Galaxies. I've never been able to find the reference though, so I can't be sure if it was in cannon or just from a website.
As to development, alongside the use of magic, there is the fact that the world has been basically reset numerous times. Humans emerged 70K years ago, and were ground back to the stone age in a land that was now a magical death trap. The dyvalians once ruled over the entire world for a simple power grab and crushed every kingdom that existed. The Elves and Dwarves obliterated each other and many other races in their war. Gromeks and Giants laid waste to the Old Kingdom before it was the New Kingdom. Kingdoms of Dragonwright warred continuously for what seems like millennia.
Every time the world crawls into a civilized era, it inevitable comes crashing down.

[Warshield73]

I'm still positive that I read in one of the books that the Wolfen on Palladium are actually the descendants of a crashed ship from the Three Galaxies. I've never been able to find the reference though, so I can't be sure if it was in cannon or just from a website.

I have never seen this anywhere but it is my basic premise. I basically have the Wolfen home world of Motherhome as the planet where the Wolfen evolved and then were transported to Palladium by rift, not crashed ship as that would leave to too many problems.

The whole point of this post was to find some mythology about the transplantation of wolfen to Palladium so I could use that in a PW game. I'm currently just going through the Wolfen Empire book for some things to use in this scenario.

As to development, alongside the use of magic, there is the fact that the world has been basically reset numerous times. Humans emerged 70K years ago, and were ground back to the stone age in a land that was now a magical death trap. The dyvalians once ruled over the entire world for a simple power grab and crushed every kingdom that existed. The Elves and Dwarves obliterated each other and many other races in their war. Gromeks and Giants laid waste to the Old Kingdom before it was the New Kingdom. Kingdoms of Dragonwright warred continuously for what seems like millennia.
Every time the world crawls into a civilized era, it inevitable comes crashing down.

I agree that they have reasons for this, I just think it works better if there were older races that have been wiped out, with elves and maybe dwarves as the survivors with younger races coming along in the last five to ten thousand years.

[Whiskeyjack]

I have never seen this anywhere but it is my basic premise. I basically have the Wolfen home world of Motherhome as the planet where the Wolfen evolved and then were transported to Palladium by rift, not crashed ship as that would leave to too many problems.

Any ship left behind would be seriously degraded and of no use to anyone. It would be regarded as a ruin with strange dead magics inside. Personally I'd put it under a glacier slowly getting crushed.

I agree that they have reasons for this, I just think it works better if there were older races that have been wiped out, with elves and maybe dwarves as the survivors with younger races coming along in the last five to ten thousand years.

But that is basically how the world is. Elves, titans, changelings survived the age of chaos.
Human appeared and were magiked to the stone age.
Dwarves and ogres appeared.
Later the canines appeared.
Somewhere in there the rest of the races appeared and many other disappeared or were reduced.
That's the one thing that I hate with Palladium. They hint at all these interesting times, bit could never be bothered to flesh them out in books.

[Library Ogre]

I'm still positive that I read in one of the books that the Wolfen on Palladium are actually the descendants of a crashed ship from the Three Galaxies. I've never been able to find the reference though, so I can't be sure if it was in cannon or just from a website.

Maybe in Barrier Peaks... I mean, the mountains of the Land of the Damned?

[Warshield73]

I have never seen this anywhere but it is my basic premise. I basically have the Wolfen home world of Motherhome as the planet where the Wolfen evolved and then were transported to Palladium by rift, not crashed ship as that would leave to too many problems.

Any ship left behind would be seriously degraded and of no use to anyone. It would be regarded as a ruin with strange dead magics inside. Personally I'd put it under a glacier slowly getting crushed.

No the problem with it being a crashed ship is the Palladium is not really a planet, as far as I know, it is more a pocket dimension so ships not really crashing. Also while you could say that crash victims would loose technology but they would retain some knowledge, well past what we see on Palladium.

[Whiskeyjack]

Dimensional anomalies happen all the time. The excerpt that I read had them slipping completely onto barbarism within a couple of generations. 10 to 15k later, their origin is forgotten even among their own kind. Realistically, remembering that you came from a spacefaring civilization while trying to fight for you life in a frozen wilderness isn't the most important part of your day.
The same premise was used in Battlestar Galactica if I remember correctly.

[Library Ogre]

Dimensional anomalies happen all the time. The excerpt that I read had them slipping completely onto barbarism within a couple of generations. 10 to 15k later, their origin is forgotten even among their own kind. Realistically, remembering that you came from a spacefaring civilization while trying to fight for you life in a frozen wilderness isn't the most important part of your day.
The same premise was used in Battlestar Galactica if I remember correctly.

I always wanted to set up a Civ game where I start out with a huge number of technologies, but no land and bad local resources, while everyone else starts off with moderately successful Civs in the medieval era.

[Axelmania]

wow, humans evolved into ogres? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around in 1st ed

[Warshield73]

Dimensional anomalies happen all the time. The excerpt that I read had them slipping completely onto barbarism within a couple of generations. 10 to 15k later, their origin is forgotten even among their own kind. Realistically, remembering that you came from a spacefaring civilization while trying to fight for you life in a frozen wilderness isn't the most important part of your day.
The same premise was used in Battlestar Galactica if I remember correctly.

Yeah in the RDM reboot and it didn't make any sense there either. You can eliminate all the tech, sound preposterous but you can do it. What you can't eliminate entirely is Knowledge. A better example of how I think space age society stranded without it's tech would be Stargate Universe. You see them loose everything but their own individual knowledge but that allows them to get a huge step up. It wouldn't take much for a group of people like this to at least develop basic firearms and to understand the germ theory of disease.

Also, this is a fantasy setting. A god or gods bringing a group of bronze age humans to Palladium as worshippers, slaves, or just workers fits the setting better. Given the timing I wonder if some of the humans on Palladium where sent there during the Atlantis disaster that led to the continent vanishing.

wow, humans evolved into ogres? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around in 1st ed

I love this. Drives home the understanding that evolution is not a road from worse to better but a process that simply produces offspring that survive.

[SolCannibal]

One of the few times I got to play PFRPG the GM was sending us on a quest connected to the Elf-Dwarf War. I, running the obligatory the Elven Longbowmen. I asked if we would even know anything about an event that ended 8,000 years ago. This still seems odd, even with the long lifespan of an elf.

See you can work the timelines with those things, the problem is it is just so long that even to and Elf, much less humans or dwarves, these events will have no relevance to people leaving in modern times. Put the battle of the Gods say 20,000 years ago, end the Elf-Dwarf War 5,000 years ago then line up everything else after that. All the sudden the development of both magic and tech makes some sense, not perfect but better and now all the sudden all these impossibly ancient events now have some resonance.

Just my opinion, worth less than normal as I don't get to play Fantasy that often.

As always, the fact that elven lifespans are ten times that of humans is illustrative. The Elf-Dwarf War ended, in human terms, 800 years ago... to an extent, it has about as much relevance as the Mongol invasions of southern and western Asia. I mean, sure, some folks are going to know a lot about that, but your average longbow man will be asking "Excuse me, do you know when the elves destroyed Baalgor?" outside of the Circle K.

Pretty sure elven lifespan in PF is about 300-400 years. Longer than humans definitely, but not ten times. And even if it were true, some of the timespans of the various eras would still be quite ludricous, somewhere between "before the fall of Rome" and "when people first developed tool-crafting & farming, but no writing yet".

And the even "longer lifespans leading to different time scales" conceit falls apart when one stops to think of the quite humano-centric Western Empire or the Wolfen among others.

[Library Ogre]

Pretty sure elven lifespan in PF is about 300-400 years. Longer than humans definitely, but not ten times. And even if it were true, some of the timespans of the various eras would still be quite ludricous, somewhere between "before the fall of Rome" and "when people first developed tool-crafting & farming, but no writing yet".

And the even "longer lifespans leading to different time scales" conceit falls apart when one stops to think of the quite humano-centric Western Empire or the Wolfen among others.

PFRPG, page 289. Human average lifespan is 60 years.
PFRPG, page 291. Elven average lifespan is 600 years.

600/60 = 10.

Now, they don't age at 1/10th the rate, as shown on page 32, where you're supposed to double the age rolled for elven characters (among others), but, really, this is looking at the race descriptions and doing some elementary school math.

[SolCannibal]

Pretty sure elven lifespan in PF is about 300-400 years. Longer than humans definitely, but not ten times. And even if it were true, some of the timespans of the various eras would still be quite ludricous, somewhere between "before the fall of Rome" and "when people first developed tool-crafting & farming, but no writing yet".

And the even "longer lifespans leading to different time scales" conceit falls apart when one stops to think of the quite humano-centric Western Empire or the Wolfen among others.

PFRPG, page 289. Human average lifespan is 60 years.
PFRPG, page 291. Elven average lifespan is 600 years.

600/60 = 10.

Now, they don't age at 1/10th the rate, as shown on page 32, where you're supposed to double the age rolled for elven characters (among others), but, really, this is looking at the race descriptions and doing some elementary school math.

Yeah, i ended up checking CB1 and found out i mixed up the lifespans while checking other race info for a separate post and didn't correct myself. Ten times the "human lifespan" is indeed fair. My mistake on that.

All of that said, my main point, that the timeframes for the multiples ages is quite ludricous even for beings with such lifespans - and most of the other "long-lived races" have barely this much or less, might be aid. And even that kind of justification breaks apart when one accounts for periods dominated by humans or wolfen, like the several millenia of existence of the Western Empire.

[Kraynic]

I guess a lot of that will depend on how you view the mindset of the longest lived races, how early in life they have children (how long between generations), how focused they are in passing on history, and how many elves live nearly a millennium to give you that 600 year average. Suddenly, the Elf/Dwarf war wasn't very many lives ago, and verbal tales may have only passed through a half dozen mouths and ears to get to the present time. It also depends on whether you have any places where elves have not just dispersed amongst humans, since I would imagine that would have an impact on what is important over time due to the environment the young are exposed to.

Dwarves customs are impacted up to the present by the fallout of the magic used during the war and the purification that happened after. I expect any interaction with races/locations that have much in the way of magic users would drive that home.

And then you have both of those races being reminded of the horrible things they did to each other when they see one of the few remaining Gnomes anywhere.

Personally, I don't see how the existence of the Western Empire or the rise of the Wolfen Empire has anything to do with how elves and dwarves think about the history of their respective races and civilizations. Well, aside from the canine races being another reminder of things that went on during the war...

That probably just means we have constructed the world (and how the races think) differently in our heads. I don't think either way of approaching this would hamper running interesting and fun games.