What would you change?

[Blackwater Sniper]

I'm not talking mechanics, just lore.

Now that Rifts has been out 30 years, there's enough time for people to have formed opinions on nearly every aspect of the game. With each new Worldbook, Sourcebook, and Dimension Book, the world of Rifts has expanded to levels I never dreamed of when I started gaming in 1993(ish). I only stopped gaming because I moved. Now I get my "fix" by writing short stories focused on my old characters and am trying to involve new the newer books as well. None of my stories involve these radical changes I present here; I still use the core framework for the most part.

On to my initial question: "What would I change?"

In nearly every media today when there's an alien invasion, the humans fight back to retake Earth. Notice I said INVASION, Star Trek is an example where non-humans work alongside humans, but there was no invasion of Earth therefor no need for humans to fight back. I would have more groups fighting the "invaders." Focusing on The Coalition as the prime human-centric group in North America was a good starting point, but I would have splinter groups who have the same goals, but don’t like the totalitarian/authoritarian regime that Prosek has built. I just got access to Worldbooks #17 and above, so there may be more Resistance groups I haven't read about yet.

I need to go over the Coalition War Campaign again to see how that's handled and why they haven't spread their influence to take over the Mississippi River and the Great Lakes. Waterways have always been a prime military target throughout history, either as a method of transport or to prevent others from crossing. Look at Russia today, even though it has a 22K mile coastline, it is essentially a landlocked country due to a lack of warmwater ports.

By designing a more hostile environment for D-bees on Earth, you may create a backstory for why they stay on Earth in the first place. Not every D-bee is an MDC creature on Rifts Earth or a magic user and finds the access to Ley Lines a draw. Why stay in a place that hates you and wants to kill you every at turn? It may also give the GM a way to introduce hamlets or towns that attract like-minded people to survive through mutualism.

I know most of this goes against everything that Rifts was designed to do and falls into several sci-fi tropes I’m sure Kevin was trying to break from the beginning. In reality, I wouldn’t change anything because I enjoy where the game has ended up today. But there are times when I think, like most creative people: “What if the game had certain changes from the beginning? How would it have changed the game today?”

[Orin J.]

i'd knock back the CS's insane levels of weapons R&D and "special forces"- they've got an absolutely absurd amount of irons in the fire as a result of the writers not doing a once over on if they've already gone over a subject. i'd also force them into some shortages to better justify their weird hypermilitancy being accepted.

i'd also take the republicans out behind the woodshed and blow their brains out as a warning to the rest of the setting to be story enriching instead of useless metapolitics.

[Captain_Nibbz]

I would eliminate everything outside of the North American setting and use the material for the rest of the world to flesh out NA better. Obviously some things would need to be tweaked to make this work, but I think that it would overall make for a more detailed and in depth setting over all.

[Library Ogre]

A simple one? Port Horus.

So, Lone Star talked about Houstown, a thriving port town in SE Texas. But, Rifts: Coalition Navy set a major Coalition naval base at Beaumont, about 80 miles away from Houstown. And when I say "Major", I mean "bigger military population than the civilian population of Houstown". And absolutely neither book mentioned the other... Lone Star didn't mention this massive military installation, and CN didn't mention this big city that it rubbed shoulders with... literally, they are within missile range, and the CS could practically target every individual in the city with their very own missile.

There's a lot in Lone Star that needs to be revisited, but that particular combo causes big problems on the Gulf Coast.

[Curbludgeon]

I'd get rid of all the racist stuff, and dial back on the stereotypes.

[Captain_Nibbz]

I'd get rid of all the racist stuff, and dial back on the stereotypes.

Ok, to open this can of worms, what are the racist stuff and stereotypes that you refer to? I'm finding out more and more lately that I don't notice when something falls into this category and I just kind of accept that it is what it is in the context of the game world without applying it to real world stuff.

I'm just kind of curious to see what there is that I'm not seeing?

[Blackwater Sniper]

i'd also take the republicans out behind the woodshed and blow their brains out as a warning to the rest of the setting to be story enriching instead of useless metapolitics.

What does that mean? And how does it in any way deal with gaming?

[Library Ogre]

i'd also take the republicans out behind the woodshed and blow their brains out as a warning to the rest of the setting to be story enriching instead of useless metapolitics.

What does that mean? And how does it in any way deal with gaming?

...you do realize the Republicans are a faction in Rifts, right? Like, since the Rifts Main Book?

[Blackwater Sniper]

i'd also take the republicans out behind the woodshed and blow their brains out as a warning to the rest of the setting to be story enriching instead of useless metapolitics.

What does that mean? And how does it in any way deal with gaming?

...you do realize the Republicans are a faction in Rifts, right? Like, since the Rifts Main Book?

They were a minor aspect of the main book, nearly a footnote, with a total of six mentions in all of the 380 pages and no mention in any of the Coalition Wars books. What possible "metapolitics" did they have any influence over on Rifts Earth?

[Orin J.]

i'd also take the republicans out behind the woodshed and blow their brains out as a warning to the rest of the setting to be story enriching instead of useless metapolitics.

What does that mean? And how does it in any way deal with gaming?

...you do realize the Republicans are a faction in Rifts, right? Like, since the Rifts Main Book?

They were a minor aspect of the main book, nearly a footnote, with a total of six mentions in all of the 380 pages and no mention in any of the Coalition Wars books. What possible "metapolitics" did they have any influence over on Rifts Earth?

none, nothing, zip, ziltch, nada. they serve no feasible purpose aside from metawank and being a way to over-complicate things for the writers. shadowy do-nothings twiddling their thumbs can **** off and make room for other material in the books.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd get rid of ARCHIE, Just, All of ARCHIE, he makes the setting make less sense every time he's mentioned and I have no idea why Kevin keeps bringing him out for more. No ARCHIE, No Shemarians, no Robo-Dinos. Titan can Stay just as a company somewhere out in the East Coast.

[Curbludgeon]

Ok, to open this can of worms, what are the racist stuff and stereotypes that you refer to?

Taking into account a Sound Off Thread regarding Thanksgiving wherein you "hoped (I) get hit by a ******* bus", I hope you can see where I ain't exactly inclined to jump to.

[jaymz]

I'd reset to 98PA.

There's just too much bloat and we still haven't gotten things that should havd been done in the early days of the lore being written.

[Blackwater Sniper]

I'd get rid of ARCHIE, Just, All of ARCHIE, he makes the setting make less sense every time he's mentioned and I have no idea why Kevin keeps bringing him out for more. No ARCHIE, No Shemarians, no Robo-Dinos. Titan can Stay just as a company somewhere out in the East Coast.

I totally agree with the Dinobots, while designing bots around insects makes more sense, six legs for stability, a hard carapace, and some form of offense/defense.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If I could "fix" one thing I would add the words "mundane equivalent" after all the words "Supernatural PS" in the Titan Juicer text.

As in 'explicitly saying that their PS is not the same as a Dragon's or SN being's SNPS' instead of implicitly saying that they are not the same.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd get rid of ARCHIE, Just, All of ARCHIE, he makes the setting make less sense every time he's mentioned and I have no idea why Kevin keeps bringing him out for more. No ARCHIE, No Shemarians, no Robo-Dinos. Titan can Stay just as a company somewhere out in the East Coast.

I totally agree with the Dinobots, while designing bots around insects makes more sense, six legs for stability, a hard carapace, and some form of offense/defense.

Well I would get rid of ARCHIE entirely and thus All X-Bots. They're silly and have no place in the setting. Why would anyone make these? what purpose do they serve? These things ain't cheep, and the last thing the setting needs is another villian with inexplicably infinite resources.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd get rid of all the racist stuff, and dial back on the stereotypes.

DEFINITELY.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I could "fix" one thing I would add the words "mundane equivalent" after all the words "Supernatural PS" in the Titan Juicer text.

As in 'explicitly saying that their PS is not the same as a Dragon's or SN being's SNPS' instead of implicitly saying that they are not the same.

What is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd scrap the racism and stereotypes.
"Killer bug men in North America and Canada" = good
"Mega-Damage Mounties in Canada" = bad
"Mexican Vampires want to cross the border and drain us" = in need of clarification that this is not in any way any kind of metaphorical representation of Mexicans or any other real-world people.

I'd make the world more of an untamed wilderness again, taking most of the big stuff that doesn't fit the original setting, and shunting it off to Dimension Books.
New West is a prime example; it'd work better as a dimension book. Rifts: Japan is another good example, although I'd want to take a hard look at the stereotypes there as well.

I'd describe what happens when you point a 1d6 MD laser at the ground and fire.
Either it'd be a deep and narrow hole, like it'd been drilled, or there'd be a kind of explosion or something, but PEOPLE WOULD ALL KNOW WHAT THE RESULT IS AND NOT HAVE TO FREAKIN' GUESS ABOUT IT.
Basic stuff like that to make the world seem more real, and make the mechanics more grounded.

I'd get rid of the various types of Physical Strength, and just go with one kind of PS instead.

I'd make giant robots/vehicles powerful enough to justify the expense.

I'd describe Chi Town. Not just the MDC of the walls, but also the cultures, conflicts, and other stuff that make settings interesting and more real.

[guardiandashi]

I'd scrap the racism and stereotypes.
"Killer bug men in North America and Canada" = good
"Mega-Damage Mounties in Canada" = bad
"Mexican Vampires want to cross the border and drain us" = in need of clarification that this is not in any way any kind of metaphorical representation of Mexicans or any other real-world people.

I'd make the world more of an untamed wilderness again, taking most of the big stuff that doesn't fit the original setting, and shunting it off to Dimension Books.
New West is a prime example; it'd work better as a dimension book. Rifts: Japan is another good example, although I'd want to take a hard look at the stereotypes there as well.

I'd describe what happens when you point a 1d6 MD laser at the ground and fire.
Either it'd be a deep and narrow hole, like it'd been drilled, or there'd be a kind of explosion or something, but PEOPLE WOULD ALL KNOW WHAT THE RESULT IS AND NOT HAVE TO FREAKIN' GUESS ABOUT IT.
Basic stuff like that to make the world seem more real, and make the mechanics more grounded.

I'd get rid of the various types of Physical Strength, and just go with one kind of PS instead.

I'd make giant robots/vehicles powerful enough to justify the expense.

I'd describe Chi Town. Not just the MDC of the walls, but also the cultures, conflicts, and other stuff that make settings interesting and more real.

I agree with most of this.

better and more consistent descriptions of what the damage effects should be based on the kind of attack
I am ok personally with levels and different types of strength but they should be more straight forward and consistent. and if there are modifiers explicit and consistent rules.
for example in the dog boy text (such as from lone star) dog boys are supposed to have 50% more strength than a human with the same strength. they also fatigue at 1/2 the normal rate, and recover from fatigue 2x as fast. but that description is vague enough re strength that the question to me comes up is the dogboy only stronger with normal and "strong" strength? or does it apply as well if they have supernatural strength and what about EX (IE super power strength) etc.

I totally disagree with getting rid of Archie, as a whole, but I don't like the "republican" aspects in sourcebook 1 revised. To me the base Archie story and writeup actually makes a certain amount of sense. having him having "reasonable" production capacity, is fine, but then you should have a definition of what constitutes "reasonable" considering he has been at least semi active since the golden age pre rifts, I could see it being significant especially if he has the capability to build and expand his own production capacity.

On the other hand I think the coalitions production and R&D capabilities should be reined in a lot I also think there should be better "travel" writeups and times by someone who actually has a much better understanding of what's involved, because on the one hand we have vehicles and stuff capable of 50mph, 200mph mach 1+ speeds etc, and yet its supposed to take hours or days/weeks to go between 2 towns that are 20-50 miles apart???

I mean I get that on the east coast (USA) you can spend hours going 20 miles but thats almost exclusively due to traffic. if you are driving or traveling at 20mph it should take ~1 hr at 40 ~30 min and at 200mph roughly 6 min

[Killer Cyborg]

I totally disagree with getting rid of Archie, as a whole, but I don't like the "republican" aspects in sourcebook 1 revised. To me the base Archie story and writeup actually makes a certain amount of sense. having him having "reasonable" production capacity, is fine, but then you should have a definition of what constitutes "reasonable" considering he has been at least semi active since the golden age pre rifts, I could see it being significant especially if he has the capability to build and expand his own production capacity.

Agreed.
I like Archie as a character and a world element.

On the other hand I think the coalitions production and R&D capabilities should be reined in a lot

I only care about that to the extent that it impacts the setting.
The CS is so powerful currently because their role in the setting is to be The Big Dog in North America, as well as one of the Big Bads. They need the power and resources to fill that role.
And the main reason for CS War Campaign boosting the CS's capabilities is, AFAIK, simply because of all the power creep that made the CS less threatening between the RMB and CWC; that stuff made CWC's boost (and other boosts) necessary.

I also think there should be better "travel" writeups and times by someone who actually has a much better understanding of what's involved, because on the one hand we have vehicles and stuff capable of 50mph, 200mph mach 1+ speeds etc, and yet its supposed to take hours or days/weeks to go between 2 towns that are 20-50 miles apart???

DEFINITELY agree!

[Orin J.]

The CS is so powerful currently because their role in the setting is to be The Big Dog in North America, as well as one of the Big Bads. They need the power and resources to fill that role.
And the main reason for CS War Campaign boosting the CS's capabilities is, AFAIK, simply because of all the power creep that made the CS less threatening between the RMB and CWC; that stuff made CWC's boost (and other boosts) necessary.

there's a point where it crosses the line between "keeping them in line with their role" and "asking why they aren't simply conquering the areas around them with brute force", and i really feel like they've crossed that line a few times now. they've never really been "weak" they simply at one point didn't have the advantage 1v1 which isn't much of a concern since they've shown several times they can simply field a MUCH larger army than most anyone else in north america (ignoring blatant plot devices like the forces of hell showing up for lulz).

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS is so powerful currently because their role in the setting is to be The Big Dog in North America, as well as one of the Big Bads. They need the power and resources to fill that role.
And the main reason for CS War Campaign boosting the CS's capabilities is, AFAIK, simply because of all the power creep that made the CS less threatening between the RMB and CWC; that stuff made CWC's boost (and other boosts) necessary.

there's a point where it crosses the line between "keeping them in line with their role" and "asking why they aren't simply conquering the areas around them with brute force", and i really feel like they've crossed that line a few times now. they've never really been "weak" they simply at one point didn't have the advantage 1v1 which isn't much of a concern since they've shown several times they can simply field a MUCH larger army than most anyone else in north america (ignoring blatant plot devices like the forces of hell showing up for lulz).

Fielding a much larger army than anybody in North America is not the same as fielding an army larger than EVERYBODY in North America.
They're surrounded by enemies, not even counting the vamps and Xiticix.
If they expand too quickly, they'll get beaten.
So they're taking their time, trying to expand in bite-sized pieces. And so far, even Tolkeen was much harder to chew than expected!

There's a LOT of problems to work on with these parts of the setting, and I'm cool with fixing them.
As long as it doesn't change the general nature of the setting, which is that the CS is the Big Dog in North America, and the main reason why they're not conquered is because their enemies can't all get on the same page long enough to form an alliance against the CS.
(And CS credits prop up the economy, which I'd expand on significantly when explaining the CS's dominance. It's not all about firepower!)

[drewkitty ~..~]

If I could "fix" one thing I would add the words "mundane equivalent" after all the words "Supernatural PS" in the Titan Juicer text.

As in 'explicitly saying that their PS is not the same as a Dragon's or SN being's SNPS' instead of implicitly saying that they are not the same.

What is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"

1st remember that JU was written under different rules and different meanings in the lexicon for the PB games.
And remember, there is no-where in the PB game books where it says to ignore the descriptive text of a character class as "just flavor text". As such a CC should be taken as a whole, without the just 'skip the words in front of the stats' mentality.

And that the Class text is written in a way that says, by describing the process used to turn them into a juicer, that the TJs are just a mundane (non-mystical) Juicers, that are just even more supercharged and built up by science the the normal juicer. And the Mega Juicer and Dragon juicer are the examples of explicitly magically powered version of a juicer.
(The arguments for them having mystical SNPS range from "maybe they just didn't write the process tapped into the psychic ability of the person" to "You are just pointing at flavor text, it doesn't count." Both of which are just lame arguments for ignoring what the canon text says. And since the TJ is just a mundane science project.)
The in VKr gamebook, there are rules about things made with the natural sciences cannot have true/real SNPS also come into play.
(The argument that was used about this rules not applying to TJs was "those? I'm ignoring those because they conflict with the way I want to do things.")
{Not joking about the counter arguments.}

Post Script: I was answering KC's question. Yes, there was a need to include the lame opposition to what the canon text says to do were from from last time it came up for a real argument.

Admonition: if you want to argue over it go start a new topic and do it there.

[Incriptus]

Deemphasize both technowizardy and rune magic as to "go-to" for magic items.

Allow for more "traditional/fantasy" magic items to be more common [not just a handful of sticks in England] and take the place of about 1/2 of the technowizardy.

When it comes to Rune Weapons ... I don't want them to be simply "high end" magic items, but the fact that have the soul of a greater supernatural being in them, they should be rarer and come with more of a ethical dilemma, too many good guys [good gods] running around with them without mentioning that fact.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I could "fix" one thing I would add the words "mundane equivalent" after all the words "Supernatural PS" in the Titan Juicer text.

As in 'explicitly saying that their PS is not the same as a Dragon's or SN being's SNPS' instead of implicitly saying that they are not the same.

What is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"

1st remember that JU was written under different rules and different meanings in the lexicon for the PB games.
And remember, there is no-where in the PB game books where it says to ignore the descriptive text of a character class as "just flavor text". As such a CC should be taken as a whole, without the just 'skip the words in front of the stats' mentality.

And that the Class text is written in a way that says, by describing the process used to turn them into a juicer, that the TJs are just a mundane (non-mystical) Juicers, that are just even more supercharged and built up by science the the normal juicer. And the Mega Juicer and Dragon juicer are the examples of explicitly magically powered version of a juicer.
(The arguments for them having mystical SNPS range from "maybe they just didn't write the process tapped into the psychic ability of the person" to "You are just pointing at flavor text, it doesn't count." Both of which are just lame arguments for ignoring what the canon text says. And since the TJ is just a mundane science project.)
The in VKr gamebook, there are rules about things made with the natural sciences cannot have true/real SNPS also come into play.
(The argument that was used about this rules not applying to TJs was "those? I'm ignoring those because they conflict with the way I want to do things.")
{Not joking about the counter arguments.}

Post Script: I was answering KC's question. Yes, there was a need to include the lame opposition to what the canon text says to do were from from last time it came up for a real argument.

Admonition: if you want to argue over it go start a new topic and do it there.

Okay.
But what IS the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"
I'm not sure which part of that was intended to be an answer to my question.

I'll elaborate a bit on why I'm asking, if that helps.

CB1 was the first real description that I'm aware of when it comes to Palladium's "Supernatural Strength," and here's what it says (CB1 26):
One might wonder why a strong human inflicts SDC damage while these others, with a seemingly equivalent PS, inflict Mega-Damage. The answer is simple. Whether a being inflicts SDC damage orMD depends on the nature of the creature.
Supernatural beings and creatures of magic, like dragons, possess inhuman or superhuman strength. Their supernatural aspect gives them an unnatural edge or bonus. Although their PS may be roughly equivalent to a human's strength in relation to overall physical power, the supernatural element of their essence gives them mega-damage strength, endurance, and, in many instances, makes them natural MDC creatures...
and
...While mortal men of magic don't become mega-damage beings, their magic is magnified ot offer MDC protection (Armor of Ithan, Wall of Force, etc.) and/or spells that inflict mega-damage (Magic fire ball, call lightning, etc.

Also, look at the game mechanics (I'm using RUE in this case, although it's always been similar):
A Strong Human with PS 18 can carry 360 lbs. They inflict 1d4+3 SDC on a punch. With a Power Punch they can inflict (1d4+3)x2 SDC on a punch, a range of 8-14 SDC
A Supernatural creature with PS of 3 can lift/carry about 30 lbs, 1/13th the actual physical strength of the human above. Yet the supernatural creature can punch for 4d6 SDC, a range of 4-24 SDC, meaning that their high end damage for a normal punch is roughly 2x the damage of that human's Power Punch.
And that supernatural creature can Power Punch for 1d4 MD, which is basically the force of 10 sticks of dynamite, MUCH more powerful than the physically stronger human.

The only explanation we're ever really given for this power difference is in the text I quoted, and similar passages on the same subject:
"Their supernatural aspect gives them an unnatural edge."

Or (RUE 285):
...Supernatural beings are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that [u]defy the laws of physics and draw upon arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence. Their supernatural aspect gvies them Mega-Damage strength and endurance...

All of which makes it seem like the answer to the question of "Why do weaker supernatural critters inflict 100x damage or more with their attacks than a stronger natural critter can" is "Because magic."

Which would leave natural beings who have "supernatural" strength or "the equivalent" here:
Why does a (Titan Juicer or whatever) do mega-damage with their attacks, when other, stronger natural beings inflict only SDC?
Because they can break the laws of physics without being magical

Hence my question.

[Killer Cyborg]

Deemphasize both technowizardy and rune magic as to "go-to" for magic items.

Allow for more "traditional/fantasy" magic items to be more common [not just a handful of sticks in England] and take the place of about 1/2 of the technowizardy.

YES!
I'd bring in Alchemist enchantments from PFRPG as well, and make a lot more of them.
Also, spells like "Enchant Weapon (Minor)" that give long-duration, but still temporary bonuses.

When it comes to Rune Weapons ... I don't want them to be simply "high end" magic items, but the fact that have the soul of a greater supernatural being in them, they should be rarer and come with more of a ethical dilemma, too many good guys [good gods] running around with them without mentioning that fact.

Agreed.

[guardiandashi]

RE magic items, I would like to see "rules" for magic item creation kind of like the rules for robots in sourcebook 1

but I would like there to be better construction rules across the board because I am the kind of person that likes that sort of thing.

for instance mundane normal weapons
"enhanced" mundane weapons using better materials.
technological weapons, and enhanced versions.
temporary magical weapons I am thinking summoned, and spells and or potions or treatments that have a temporary, or limited but permanent effect.
for example a "oil" of sharpness repairs the cutting edge of a weapon but also makes it "magically sharp" for x period, after which it reverts to its "normal" sharpness
also a "repair" potion or spell will permanently repair damage to the item, and or may cause the item to "heal or regenerate" for a period after which it will stop repairing itself

normal or lesser permanently enchanted items. these would be roughly equivalent to basic enchanted items in other games like that "dragons game" where you have items to work with a persons enhanced attributes, modify attributes, have bonuses to hit, and damage, are enhanced with energy damage, and the like.

permanent and charged magic items, (charged items that can be used a limited number of times before they are depleted and or destroyed)

also multiple schools or methods of making "magic" items such as alchemy, enchanting, techno wizard, rune magics, and at the high end rune weapons (items) that might incorporate multiple other schools. of magic to create the effects.

I would also love to see more edge cases like for example Hephaestus who is so skilled that he can craft an item that is effectively a rune weapon but does not require the sacrifice (murder) of a being to create it.

I would also like there to be more (better) guidelines for making tech weapons and gear.

I would also love if there was better "scaling" IE why is it that other than missiles are there no weapons with more than a 4000ft or 2 mile range ....

[Killer Cyborg]

RE magic items, I would like to see "rules" for magic item creation kind of like the rules for robots in sourcebook 1

but I would like there to be better construction rules across the board because I am the kind of person that likes that sort of thing.

Yes and yes!

I would also like there to be more (better) guidelines for making tech weapons and gear.

Indeed.
There should be a lot of inherent balance in it, too, so that it can't be abused for uber-weapons and such.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Okay.
But is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"
I'm not sure which part of that was intended to be an answer to my question.

I'm not the writer, but the intent was clear enough to me that it was to be mundane option of a very strong juicer. As such it can't have true SNPS. And the SNPS label was just a 'convenient' shortcut.

[Library Ogre]

Some differentiation between different kinds of energy weapons. If I'm building a gun, why do I choose a laser over an ion weapon?

[Killer Cyborg]

Some differentiation between different kinds of energy weapons. If I'm building a gun, why do I choose a laser over an ion weapon?

Exactly!

I've always thought it'd be cool if ion beams messed up circuitry somehow or something, for example.
Plasma should set stuff on fire... even some MDC stuff.
Particle beams are described as "disintegration," so that should have some effects on healing and such.

But also, I've always thought it'd be cool if different energy types used different dice.
So basic lasers would do d4, ion would do d6, plasma would do d8, and particle would do d10.
Then we could have fun weighing damage odds in as a factor when picking our weapons:
is 2d4 really better than 1d8? Is it preferable for this particular character?
Should I attack with my 5d4 laser rifle, or my 2d10 particle beam?
That kind of thing.
And it'd be cool flavor.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay.
But is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"
I'm not sure which part of that was intended to be an answer to my question.

I'm not the writer, but the intent was clear enough to me that it was to be mundane option of a very strong juicer. As such it can't have true SNPS. And the SNPS label was just a 'convenient' shortcut.

Right.
A "convenient" shortcut that makes no kind of sense, because it requires that we accept that dudes who take ENOUGH DRUGS can break the laws of physics exactly the same as if they're magic, only they're not magic.
They wanted a Kewl New Juicer that was much stronger and therefore kewler than the old Juicers.
They wanted a character who could stand toe-to-toe with supernatural creatures, without being magical... but also without putting any thought into how that might work or what it might look like.
So all we're left with is "Take enough drugs, and you can be magic without actually being magic."
It's a falsism.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

On the topic of Republicans and Archie, instead of taking them away I'd rather see them be part of the world in a bigger capacity. I agree that the shadowy aspect of it is somewhat a hindrance on the development of the factions, and they would be better off not existing at that point since they make not huge impact on outcomes of events. That might just be from letting GMs use the book lore as stencils and fill them in for their own games, but sometimes I think factions need a bit more of a starting point to build from.

Man, it's been forever since I've posted here instead of lurk, but this thread sparked some ideas.

If anything, I'd like the Republicans to become a rival faction in the setting. It'd be interesting to see their take on the world around them. I need to reread SB1 Revised, but I think the NEMA remnants are pretty much still in stasis. Even if the Republicans had outed and started rebuilding decades ago, I doubt they would reach the same numbers as CS or the other domains. Considering that they are the descendants of the old empire, they can stake a claim on the continent too.


Price of equipment. They've never made sense to me. Using the New West book and a couple others as guides of pricing, there is so much inflation. Drinks and food cost maybe a few credits, but MDC equipment goes into the thousands - and onward to millions! I understand not every joe having MDC equipment to defend the farm but when the setting is described as using barter to get repairs done or trade for new equipment it is hard to wrap my head around the prices. I often knock a zero off or just change the price in general to reflect the setting.

[Curbludgeon]

Partly to psych myself up to write material for the setting such a change might involve, I've mentioned on these forums a couple of times one change I'd make: I'd set an altitude ceiling in the low troposphere(maybe ~8-10000 ft) on safe travel via technologically-based aircraft; above which, instead of the current setting's depictions of kill-sats and counter-orbital debris fields, one encounters a dimensional envelope visible only from above which has drastic effects on most technology. This emphasizes the difficulties in travel suggested in the setting, both by rendering certain forms of high speed jet propulsion inefficient and encouraging altitude-specific regional aircraft. While hover technology would prove fairly ubiqituous across North America, much of the conventional aircraft the Coalition States uses within its territory would prove difficult-to-impossible to deploy west of the Continental Divide, as an example. In the New West, in addition to hover vehicles propeller-driven craft have proven popular, both in conventional and TW versions. Lighter than air vehicles such as hot air balloons utilize the approximate limit on technology safely usable within the dimensional envelope, and can exploit the entities, undetectable from the surface, which absolutely fill the atmosphere.

In orbit, this envelope is clearly visible as a 250 km thick maelstrom surrounding the planet, roiling with what appear, from the precarious safety of orbital stations, to be a sea of ghosts which put Madhaven or the mists surrounding China to shame. The orbital community doesn't actively defend against terrestrial assault, for due to a lack of visibility and a dimensional energy-based scrambling of electronic signals they generally don't believe any human life survived on the surface. This is compounded by a subtle effect of the dimensional envelope such that, from the surface, things such as orbital stations and moon bases aren't visible. Strangely, though, this effect only extends a couple of thousand miles past Earth's surface, such that developments on Mars are visible, and the lack of communication from them is taken as a sign of aloofness. ***I don't what would be cooler, if the view of near-earth space was on a loop or from thousands of years previous, such that amateur astronomers would know something was up, or if the entities simply mask all technology to a certain distance***

[Blackwater Sniper]

Man, it's been forever since I've posted here instead of lurk, but this thread sparked some ideas.

Price of equipment. They've never made sense to me. Using the New West book and a couple others as guides of pricing, there is so much inflation. Drinks and food cost maybe a few credits, but MDC equipment goes into the thousands - and onward to millions! I understand not every joe having MDC equipment to defend the farm but when the setting is described as using barter to get repairs done or trade for new equipment it is hard to wrap my head around the prices. I often knock a zero off or just change the price in general to reflect the setting.

I'm glad I could drag you back in.

I completely agree about the pricing of high end equipment. How can a player start with a suit of Glitter Boy armor worth millions ... and a few thousand in tradeable items. To me it's like living in a double-wide and owning a Lambo.

[Library Ogre]

On the topic of Republicans and Archie, instead of taking them away I'd rather see them be part of the world in a bigger capacity. I agree that the shadowy aspect of it is somewhat a hindrance on the development of the factions, and they would be better off not existing at that point since they make not huge impact on outcomes of events. That might just be from letting GMs use the book lore as stencils and fill them in for their own games, but sometimes I think factions need a bit more of a starting point to build from.

Palladium has long had, especially before the late-90s, early 00s when there were a lot of new writers producing things they'd worked up on their own, a problem with "Story pockets" that really should affect each other. As I mentioned earlier, Port Horus is a great example of this... you can't put a huge military base of the big evil guys right next to a large town not of the big evil guys and assume there's next to no interaction.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

Man, it's been forever since I've posted here instead of lurk, but this thread sparked some ideas.

Price of equipment. They've never made sense to me. Using the New West book and a couple others as guides of pricing, there is so much inflation. Drinks and food cost maybe a few credits, but MDC equipment goes into the thousands - and onward to millions! I understand not every joe having MDC equipment to defend the farm but when the setting is described as using barter to get repairs done or trade for new equipment it is hard to wrap my head around the prices. I often knock a zero off or just change the price in general to reflect the setting.

I'm glad I could drag you back in.

I completely agree about the pricing of high end equipment. How can a player start with a suit of Glitter Boy armor worth millions ... and a few thousand in tradeable items. To me it's like living in a double-wide and owning a Lambo.

The suit only makes sense with the lore wrapped around the class. Glitter Boys are handed down from generation to generation, and most current pilots are either descendants of post Cataclysm era pilots or have shown themselves worthy. I imagine the trade goods come from a pilot's stash of payment of doing deeds for villages. I think I might agree with your logic on the regular power armor/giant robot pilots. One would have to be part of some mercenary or regular army, or be the kid of some bigwig who works in the arms industry.

Or the possibility of having found the set of armor with a dead guy in it in a salvaging mission - but one would need to have the ability to pilot it.

I just think prices need to reflect more of what the setting brings in. I understand the gap of low end mercenaries and those that are rolling in the dough, but the prices are exorborant for some.

[Elvendork]

Deemphasize both technowizardy and rune magic as to "go-to" for magic items.

Allow for more "traditional/fantasy" magic items to be more common [not just a handful of sticks in England] and take the place of about 1/2 of the technowizardy.

This doesn't make sense for a few reasons, one of them being part of the overall meta is the fusion of High Magic and Super Technology.

Secondly, setting wise it makes less sense, according to PFRPG it would take an alchemist 5-10days to add the feature "impervious to fire" to an armor while a Techno Wizard could do the same job in under an hour and compared to a traditional fantasy world, where magic items like this have been made for centuries and would be more common place, Rifts Earth is supposed to be the future of a setting where such items would have been scarce to the point of almost nonexistent and by the time those who know the mystical arts would have started crafting those items, BOOM TW is developed and the need of those items dropped dramatically.

Finally they actually did do that where it made sense like Japan.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Okay.
But is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"
I'm not sure which part of that was intended to be an answer to my question.

I'm not the writer, but the intent was clear enough to me that it was to be mundane option of a very strong juicer. As such it can't have true SNPS. And the SNPS label was just a 'convenient' shortcut.

Right.
A "convenient" shortcut that makes no kind of sense, because it requires that we accept that dudes who take ENOUGH DRUGS can break the laws of physics exactly the same as if they're magic, only they're not magic.
They wanted a Kewl New Juicer that was much stronger and therefore kewler than the old Juicers.
They wanted a character who could stand toe-to-toe with supernatural creatures, without being magical... but also without putting any thought into how that might work or what it might look like.
So all we're left with is "Take enough drugs, and you can be magic without actually being magic."
It's a falsism.

Which means that the TJ ether shouldn't be in the book.....or.... should acknowledge that they are not sn...which the character text does without saying it exactly that way, but within the way the books were written back then.
This little idea did takes centerstage when talking about if TJ can damage those immune to mundane damage with their bare hand attacks. Because some people ether can't or won't acknowledge it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay.
But is the "mundane equivalent" of "breaks the laws of physics?"
I'm not sure which part of that was intended to be an answer to my question.

I'm not the writer, but the intent was clear enough to me that it was to be mundane option of a very strong juicer. As such it can't have true SNPS. And the SNPS label was just a 'convenient' shortcut.

Right.
A "convenient" shortcut that makes no kind of sense, because it requires that we accept that dudes who take ENOUGH DRUGS can break the laws of physics exactly the same as if they're magic, only they're not magic.
They wanted a Kewl New Juicer that was much stronger and therefore kewler than the old Juicers.
They wanted a character who could stand toe-to-toe with supernatural creatures, without being magical... but also without putting any thought into how that might work or what it might look like.
So all we're left with is "Take enough drugs, and you can be magic without actually being magic."
It's a falsism.

Which means that the TJ ether shouldn't be in the book.....or.... should acknowledge that they are not sn...which the character text does without saying it exactly that way, but within the way the books were written back then.

Well, my specific issue is that it makes no sense to acknowledge that the Titan Juicers are able to break the laws of physics without being supernatural.

This little idea did takes centerstage when talking about if TJ can damage those immune to mundane damage with their bare hand attacks. Because some people ether can't or won't acknowledge it.

RIGHT! I remember that.
I can see three different interpretations from memory:
1. Titan Juicers have "the equivalent of" Supernatural PS, which means that they don't have ACTUAL supernatural PS, so they cannot harm beings who are invulnerable to non-Supernatural PS.
2. Titan Juicers have "the equivalent of" Supernatural PS, which means that they can do everything that somebody with Supernatural PS can do, including harming creatures who are invulnerable to non-Supernatural PS.
3. (This one can be looked up) No creatures are harmed by Supernatural PS; they're only harmed by supernatural creatures. Since Titan Juicers are NOT supernatural creatures, it doesn't matter whether or not they have the "equivalent" of Supernatural PS. The PS itself is not a factor.

[Curbludgeon]

A more simple change I'd make would involve clearing out all the retro-futurism extant among human factions. I don't think there's honestly much nostalgia for data storage using minidiscs, and a "Clock/Calendar Implant" should be updated to something akin to a cutting edge modern smart phone. These sort of changes could be a consequence of PB publishing a Hardware Unlimited that has taken into account the last 35 years.

[Orin J.]

A more simple change I'd make would involve clearing out all the retro-futurism extant among human factions. I don't think there's honestly much nostalgia for data storage using minidiscs, and a "Clock/Calendar Implant" should be updated to something akin to a cutting edge modern smart phone. These sort of changes could be a consequence of PB publishing a Hardware Unlimited that has taken into account the last 35 years.

discs are a much more stable method of storage than the flash memory we currently use, which is probably important when everyone seems to want to stick a nuclear reactor on everything that might get nicked and who knows what kind of magnetic waves are being released by the weapons being shot everywhere and since even most town don't have a a wireless network having a watch you never lose and doesn't need charging is probably still more useful to most folks.

always thought those clock calander implants were a flat screen the size of and address label standard anyways.

[Hotrod]

I'd apply the following questions to every part of the setting:

1. Is organic to the setting and interactive with its neighbors, or is it so isolated that it might as well be in another dimension or on another planet? If the latter, cut or revise it.
2. Is it built on novel ideas, or is it built on cultural/historical stereotypes? If the latter, cut or revise it.
3. Does it have a plausible history explaining how it organically evolved from the present day, through the Golden Age of Technology, through the Coming of the Rifts, and through the 300 years since, or did it just show up by magic? If the latter, cut or revise it.
4. Does it reflect the classic Rifts theme of power coming at a price? If not, cut or revise it.
5. If it presents more powerful content, does it do so in a way that doesn't invalidate other content in the setting? If not, cut or revise it.

Books that would get massive edits or rewrites: New West, Spirit West, Japan, China 1 & 2, Africa, Mutants in Orbit, and Australia.

[Orin J.]

So you'd rewrite everything then.

[Hotrod]

So you'd rewrite everything then.

No, not everything. Let’s consider the first four world books:
Vampire Kingdoms would remain as written. Atlantis would remain as written. I’d cut New Camelot from England and develop the druids and their conflict with the demons in Scotland more. In Triax, I’d keep most everything except the gypsy section.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

I'd apply the following questions to every part of the setting:

1. Is organic to the setting and interactive with its neighbors, or is it so isolated that it might as well be in another dimension or on another planet? If the latter, cut or revise it.
2. Is it built on novel ideas, or is it built on cultural/historical stereotypes? If the latter, cut or revise it.
3. Does it have a plausible history explaining how it organically evolved from the present day, through the Golden Age of Technology, through the Coming of the Rifts, and through the 300 years since, or did it just show up by magic? If the latter, cut or revise it.
4. Does it reflect the classic Rifts theme of power coming at a price? If not, cut or revise it.
5. If it presents more powerful content, does it do so in a way that doesn't invalidate other content in the setting? If not, cut or revise it.

Books that would get massive edits or rewrites: New West, Spirit West, Japan, China 1 & 2, Africa, Mutants in Orbit, and Australia.

I think I get what you imply here, but there are some parts that fit the premise of Rifts. Maybe not the setting, but the idea of Rifts. When I was getting into the setting a friend of mine described it as a post apocalyptic setting that literally has everything of pop culture and the kitchen sink. Somethings are a bit gonzo and wacky, and with considerations of 1980s action flicks, it probably fits the bill. Some parts are literally built from tropes and characterizations. Which was fine for a while, several years ago.

However, now, the tropes are thin and some I think are rather dated from select information at hand (Looking at Spirit West mostly). I do like the idea of the stereotype centered worlds in some cases. Samurai in Japan, gunslingers in the West, Mad Maxish stuff in Australia are just a few examples. Some of the characterizations and stereotypes don't jive well with me though. I agree with your point on gypsies (or Romani travelers if we really want to stay away from offensive terms). There are many parts in Spirit West that really paint the Native American cultures with a broad brush, and while I can understand it would be a thick book if it had to include all the cultures the handwave to the differences is somewhat off putting. It would also take a ton more research than what some writers are willing to do. I have to shrug my shoulder at some, and tweak for my campaign for others.

Some aspects of New West I'd like rewritten. I wouldn't take away all the Western genre of it. No, that'd take some of the flair of the area away. The area should should have some editorial massages though. I can't see that every town would have the stereotypical Wild West feel to them. I am okay with widebrims and six shooters, I know people that still dress that way over there, but there would be a lot of other influences too. People aren't static with fashions, architecture, and culture. It's fun for the game to have, and helps with players get into the mood by just throwing in John Ford or Spaghetti Western stuff, but worldbuilding-wise the area would be more diverse. The Old West towns had people from all over including the eastern cities of the US and brought ideas with them.

At least, I'm allowed to change things for games and the books provide a foundation to build on for some things.

[Hotrod]

I'd apply the following questions to every part of the setting:

1. Is organic to the setting and interactive with its neighbors, or is it so isolated that it might as well be in another dimension or on another planet? If the latter, cut or revise it.
2. Is it built on novel ideas, or is it built on cultural/historical stereotypes? If the latter, cut or revise it.
3. Does it have a plausible history explaining how it organically evolved from the present day, through the Golden Age of Technology, through the Coming of the Rifts, and through the 300 years since, or did it just show up by magic? If the latter, cut or revise it.
4. Does it reflect the classic Rifts theme of power coming at a price? If not, cut or revise it.
5. If it presents more powerful content, does it do so in a way that doesn't invalidate other content in the setting? If not, cut or revise it.

Books that would get massive edits or rewrites: New West, Spirit West, Japan, China 1 & 2, Africa, Mutants in Orbit, and Australia.

I think I get what you imply here, but there are some parts that fit the premise of Rifts. Maybe not the setting, but the idea of Rifts. When I was getting into the setting a friend of mine described it as a post apocalyptic setting that literally has everything of pop culture and the kitchen sink. Somethings are a bit gonzo and wacky, and with considerations of 1980s action flicks, it probably fits the bill. Some parts are literally built from tropes and characterizations. Which was fine for a while, several years ago.

However, now, the tropes are thin and some I think are rather dated from select information at hand (Looking at Spirit West mostly). I do like the idea of the stereotype centered worlds in some cases. Samurai in Japan, gunslingers in the West, Mad Maxish stuff in Australia are just a few examples. Some of the characterizations and stereotypes don't jive well with me though. I agree with your point on gypsies (or Romani travelers if we really want to stay away from offensive terms). There are many parts in Spirit West that really paint the Native American cultures with a broad brush, and while I can understand it would be a thick book if it had to include all the cultures the handwave to the differences is somewhat off putting. It would also take a ton more research than what some writers are willing to do. I have to shrug my shoulder at some, and tweak for my campaign for others.

Some aspects of New West I'd like rewritten. I wouldn't take away all the Western genre of it. No, that'd take some of the flair of the area away. The area should should have some editorial massages though. I can't see that every town would have the stereotypical Wild West feel to them. I am okay with widebrims and six shooters, I know people that still dress that way over there, but there would be a lot of other influences too. People aren't static with fashions, architecture, and culture. It's fun for the game to have, and helps with players get into the mood by just throwing in John Ford or Spaghetti Western stuff, but worldbuilding-wise the area would be more diverse. The Old West towns had people from all over including the eastern cities of the US and brought ideas with them.

At least, I'm allowed to change things for games and the books provide a foundation to build on for some things.

Your points are all legitimate, and I respect what you're saying. I'm not saying that I think Kevin should make these changes; some of the books that I would rewrite are quite popular in the fan community (Japan, for instance); I'm just saying that this is how I would change Rifts lore if I were running things and making a new edition. Even the books that I would want to do a complete rewrite on wouldn't necessarily shed all the cultural references. I just wouldn't want to build them on those cultural references.

Let's take New West, for example. I would try to capture classic western movie themes without straight-up importing western imagery. I'd depict it as a frontier, a huge wilderness dotted with boom towns and ghost towns, hard people trying to make their way in a hard world, et cetera. A lot of the social structures would remain, but without most of the straight-up imported western stuff. Done right, the book wouldn't look like the 1880s, but it would feel like the 1880s. Even if they did go for that sort of imagery, it would be more in decorating their weapons rather than getting weapons redesigned and repackaged to look like something 500 years old. You can see this kind of approach in some Sci-Fi shows like Defiance and Firefly.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

I'd apply the following questions to every part of the setting:

1. Is organic to the setting and interactive with its neighbors, or is it so isolated that it might as well be in another dimension or on another planet? If the latter, cut or revise it.
2. Is it built on novel ideas, or is it built on cultural/historical stereotypes? If the latter, cut or revise it.
3. Does it have a plausible history explaining how it organically evolved from the present day, through the Golden Age of Technology, through the Coming of the Rifts, and through the 300 years since, or did it just show up by magic? If the latter, cut or revise it.
4. Does it reflect the classic Rifts theme of power coming at a price? If not, cut or revise it.
5. If it presents more powerful content, does it do so in a way that doesn't invalidate other content in the setting? If not, cut or revise it.

Books that would get massive edits or rewrites: New West, Spirit West, Japan, China 1 & 2, Africa, Mutants in Orbit, and Australia.

I think I get what you imply here, but there are some parts that fit the premise of Rifts. Maybe not the setting, but the idea of Rifts. When I was getting into the setting a friend of mine described it as a post apocalyptic setting that literally has everything of pop culture and the kitchen sink. Somethings are a bit gonzo and wacky, and with considerations of 1980s action flicks, it probably fits the bill. Some parts are literally built from tropes and characterizations. Which was fine for a while, several years ago.

However, now, the tropes are thin and some I think are rather dated from select information at hand (Looking at Spirit West mostly). I do like the idea of the stereotype centered worlds in some cases. Samurai in Japan, gunslingers in the West, Mad Maxish stuff in Australia are just a few examples. Some of the characterizations and stereotypes don't jive well with me though. I agree with your point on gypsies (or Romani travelers if we really want to stay away from offensive terms). There are many parts in Spirit West that really paint the Native American cultures with a broad brush, and while I can understand it would be a thick book if it had to include all the cultures the handwave to the differences is somewhat off putting. It would also take a ton more research than what some writers are willing to do. I have to shrug my shoulder at some, and tweak for my campaign for others.

Some aspects of New West I'd like rewritten. I wouldn't take away all the Western genre of it. No, that'd take some of the flair of the area away. The area should should have some editorial massages though. I can't see that every town would have the stereotypical Wild West feel to them. I am okay with widebrims and six shooters, I know people that still dress that way over there, but there would be a lot of other influences too. People aren't static with fashions, architecture, and culture. It's fun for the game to have, and helps with players get into the mood by just throwing in John Ford or Spaghetti Western stuff, but worldbuilding-wise the area would be more diverse. The Old West towns had people from all over including the eastern cities of the US and brought ideas with them.

At least, I'm allowed to change things for games and the books provide a foundation to build on for some things.

Your points are all legitimate, and I respect what you're saying. I'm not saying that I think Kevin should make these changes; some of the books that I would rewrite are quite popular in the fan community (Japan, for instance); I'm just saying that this is how I would change Rifts lore if I were running things and making a new edition. Even the books that I would want to do a complete rewrite on wouldn't necessarily shed all the cultural references. I just wouldn't want to build them on those cultural references.

Let's take New West, for example. I would try to capture classic western movie themes without straight-up importing western imagery. I'd depict it as a frontier, a huge wilderness dotted with boom towns and ghost towns, hard people trying to make their way in a hard world, et cetera. A lot of the social structures would remain, but without most of the straight-up imported western stuff. Done right, the book wouldn't look like the 1880s, but it would feel like the 1880s. Even if they did go for that sort of imagery, it would be more in decorating their weapons rather than getting weapons redesigned and repackaged to look like something 500 years old. You can see this kind of approach in some Sci-Fi shows like Defiance and Firefly.

I'm in agreeance with you on that. I think that's what I may have been trying to say, but failed to point that out. It's the motifs I'd keep. The setting, the atmosphere/tone of the Western genre. The New West book is a Sci Fi Western, and fits all the criteria for both genres. I might like a bit more SciFi in the setting though. Firefly is a good example of that. There are others too: Cowboy Bebop, and I'd add the Mandalorian.

[guardiandashi]

with the new west if it were to be redone, I think a good theme would be to have the region have a kind of split personality, but make it better fleshed out and obvious.
IE a modern/futuristic -Neo western, (think firefly, the Mandorilian, Cowboy Bebop, i'll toss in cowboys and aliens) then having a "retro" cowboy/western aspect, and even some "real" cowboy/settler old west aspects.