Magic Net

[Veknironth]

Well, I was wondering, how helpless is someone in the Magic Net? Like can they not speak? Can they cast spells from inside it? Can they not use psionics? Can they not bite someone trapped in the net with them? Can they hear/see? What about using a breath weapon or other natural ability?

-Vek
"That seems too powerful as written."

[drewkitty ~..~]

They can't move out of their location and can't make any combat moves is the basic meaning of the spell text.
Outside of that is up to GM choice.

My GM VP:
Magic: yes...unless their mouth is covered and can't cast magic w/o incantation,
Psi: Yes,
fight someone else trapped in the same net: no
see: ??? depends on if their eyes are covered or netted shut
hear: yes unless their ears are covered thickly with the net.
Breath weapon: Magic ones will be limited on how the GM says the char can turn their head about to aim.
other nat abilities: not blocked but it depends on what they are.
---nat ab. T-porting: is not blocked and the char can t-port out of the net.

[The Beast]

They can't move out of their location and can't make any combat moves is the basic meaning of the spell text.
Outside of that is up to GM choice.

My GM VP:
...fight someone else trapped in the same net: no...

I'm not quite sure about that one. They are allowed to cut themselves free from the net they're trapped in. Fighting someone trapped in a net with you shouldn't be more difficult. They won't be getting a full range of motion, so no sword swinging or anything like that, but grappling and/or real close-range weapons should be okay.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Anyone caught in the magic nets helpless and unable to attack or defend.

This sentence says the complete effects on those who are caught in the Magic Net.

The sentence just before the quoted one just says that it takes magic weapons or magic effects to effect the magic net.

Nothing in the text even implies that it is the character caught in the net can effect an escape from then net themselves.

(This is the PF forum so I am using the PF2 core book text as the canon reference to answer this question.)

[The Beast]

Ah, okay. I wasn't aware that PFRPG didn't include the line about those trapped inside being able to cut themselves free using magic weapons.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ah, okay. I wasn't aware that PFRPG didn't include the line about those trapped inside being able to cut themselves free using magic weapons.

The other core and source books that don't have text that says the char trapped in the magic net can effect their own escape are: RUE, RBoM, HU2, the RMB and PF1. And all of these have the sentence I quoted in my last post in them.


(Book that don't have the MN spell in it: NB core book, HUGMG, BTS1, BTS2.)

[Tiltowait]

It’s extremely powerful by RAW. Any ground-based man-sized foe can be made helpless via this spell. Magic Net is pretty much a must-have for wizards. Never leave home without it.

[Veknironth]

Well, that's part of what bothers me with the spell. It's too powerful and is so in a manner that doesn't make much sense based on text. The idea of a net magicaly wrapping itself around someone and preventing them from making gross motor movements with their bodies makes sense to me. That would make most any person "helpless". But I can't see how that would prevent someone from using psionics, spells, or biting/attacking someone trapped in there with them. If the net had some paralytic power that prevents that from happening, or if it puts you to sleep, I could understand it. I had some strong push back from my PCs on this, mainly because they were using the spell. I'm sure it would be the reverse if I used it against them.

-Vek
"It always depends on which foot the shoe is."

[Soldier of Od]

Well, that's part of what bothers me with the spell. It's too powerful and is so in a manner that doesn't make much sense based on text. The idea of a net magicaly wrapping itself around someone and preventing them from making gross motor movements with their bodies makes sense to me. That would make most any person "helpless". But I can't see how that would prevent someone from using psionics, spells, or biting/attacking someone trapped in there with them. If the net had some paralytic power that prevents that from happening, or if it puts you to sleep, I could understand it. I had some strong push back from my PCs on this, mainly because they were using the spell. I'm sure it would be the reverse if I used it against them.

-Vek
"It always depends on which foot the shoe is."

It surely does! My players are pretty fair with the "well I wouldn't want it to happen to me" side of things, so I guess I'm lucky!
I don't think the description of the spell is intending to imply that the trapped person can't speak or cast spells or use psionics. I guess it is the word "helpless" that is making your players think that, but honestly, I'm surprised anyone would think a net (even a magic one) somehow automatically makes you unable to speak or use psionics if it doesn't say it does. I think that the follow up that says they can't attack or defend themselves shows that it is meant to refer to physical attacks/movement (e.g. strike and parry), but I can see how someone might choose to interpret that as any kind of attack - but if they did, does that mean that the trapped person can cast magic that doesn't attack or defend? Surely that isn't the intention. I don't think it is absolutely clear whether they could bite someone in there with them, but in the context of the spell and practicality I would probably rule that if it says they can't attack, let's just leave as they can't attack, rather than open up a whole - well, if I can bite, can I head butt? Can I scratch with my nails? How close are my teeth to the other person's neck? etc. Just keep it simple. I'm guessing that by the description the net "pulls tight" so as to fully restrict movement.

[kiralon]

I'm also of the opinion that if your pc's use it constantly, it's likely a common attack form so will use it just as commonly but in saying that they tend to come across more enemy priest types the mage types.

Does psionic teleport object work on magic net?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Can psionic teleport object move a fireball? *shakes head* nope.
Can psionic teleport object move a lighting bolt? *shakes head* nope.
Can psionic teleport object move a phantom steed? *shakes head* nope.
Can psionic teleport object move a cloud of slumber? *shakes head* nope.

Magic energy forms are not physical objects.

[Tiltowait]

Well, that's part of what bothers me with the spell. It's too powerful and is so in a manner that doesn't make much sense based on text. The idea of a net magicaly wrapping itself around someone and preventing them from making gross motor movements with their bodies makes sense to me. That would make most any person "helpless". But I can't see how that would prevent someone from using psionics, spells, or biting/attacking someone trapped in there with them. If the net had some paralytic power that prevents that from happening, or if it puts you to sleep, I could understand it. I had some strong push back from my PCs on this, mainly because they were using the spell. I'm sure it would be the reverse if I used it against them.

-Vek
"It always depends on which foot the shoe is."

Okay so we're really talking about different things here:
1) Rules as Written.
2) Rules per the GM intent.
3) Players wanting their cake and eating it too.

Bottom line you are the GM it's your rules. If you want to change the effects of a given spell or ability it is entirely within your rights. You can interpret 'helpless and cannot attack/defend' to mean whatever you like.
Also the players cannot have it both ways. If the ruling is 'well it makes them completely helpless' then when the PC's get hit with it then they are going to be just as helpless too.
Palladium is not about fair fights. The creator is quoted time and time again in various rulesbooks (including the core books) about how the rules and elements are not all equal and that is by his intent and design.

Now you don't have to adopt that part of the creator's intent (I don't) because "rocks fall and you die" doesn't make for a good story or fun, at least not for me.
But if the players are saying "we believe and want spell X to work as follows" and you as the GM have agreed then hit them with it. After a couple of party wipes maybe they will reconsider the use of the spell and agree with a change that doesn't make it a "save or die" spell.

Mind you there are other spells and powers that can cause this "save or die" result. How you address them is up to you. You could discuss adding a house rules to allow a 'break out' i.e. perhaps a new save every turn. It's what other game systems did to reduce the impact of "dang one roll at the start and I'm out of the combat." Or you could weaken the actual effect to say remove an attack per round or provide strike/dodge penalties.

Or you can leave it as is because it seems that is what the players wish...but sooner or later their entire party is going to get hit by one or more of spells like these and they'll find they are all helpless after the first round. For example, it's kind of embarrassing for a party of heroes to be taken out by a single level 1 spell. (Cloud of Slumber I'm looking at you) followed by a bunch of lowly mooks who slice their throats while sleeping, but hey the Palladium world is not a nice place.

If this sounds heavy handed I should point out this is an option, you don't have to do it. As for myself, I tend to make things a bit easier for heroes/players by given them 'fate/hero' points (usually for re-rolls) and what's called 'player agency' so they can influence stories ('hey I have the exact tool for this!') and have a good chance to make that check right when they need it. But there has to be stakes or risk in an epic or the players are running in god mode and at that point you may as well put the dice away and just tell a story.

[kiralon]

Can psionic teleport object move a fireball? *shakes head* nope.
Can psionic teleport object move a lighting bolt? *shakes head* nope.
Can psionic teleport object move a phantom steed? *shakes head* nope.
Can psionic teleport object move a cloud of slumber? *shakes head* nope.

Magic energy forms are not physical objects.

Well, magic net is physical enough to touch, and i wouldn't let someone teleport the fire off a torch, lightning, or light from a lamp, and reading the phantom horse i would think it wasn't likely either (made of magic energy) but then again, would the teleport spell teleport a phantom horse, but the teleport psionic does say physical matter and magic net says it composed of magic fibres, not energy like the horse.
Would a net conjured by magic be teleportable, it can be as impermanent as the magic net spell, but can also be made permanent.
I'd allow things that are physical, but not things that are an energy force, so i'd certainly let the players argue for it to be teleportable, as it doesn't really say either way.
I'd definitely let the teleport area magic do it, and i'd likely allow a teleporting weapon to return to the users hand when in a magic net.

[Library Ogre]

With Palladium, you always have to remember that things are written very broadly. While a lot of more modern games use very specific language, Palladium tends to be more... interpretational. Never rely on exact terminology to tell you what a spell is supposed to do, simply because nothing is written that way.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*comments*
interpretation....a GM's fiefdom.
otherwise the arguments will abound exponentially.

Disclaimer: I have no problem with GM's having their own interpretation or even playing under those GMs. But if it is 'counter to' or 'different from' the published text they should (to not be a part of the alpha-heta greek house) say what they are saying is their house rules.