Attacks per round?

[Tiltowait]

Need some clarification here. This came up in another thread but I feel this is kind of a separate topic.

Page 46 of Palladium 2E Core states folks with no HTH get 1 attack at level 1, and parry would eat that action.
The various HTH skills on page 47 seem to start with 2 attacks.
No counting some racial (eg Troll) bonuses, Boxing skill would grant you an extra attack.

So a level 1 with any HTH skill and Boxing gets a total of 3 attacks.

However several folks have told me I am short-changing my PCs because everyone starts with 2 attacks before HTH/Boxing, etc. and that above # should be five (5) before other racial/class (barbarian beserk, etc) mods.

Where is this (page) explained in the rules please? I want to get this right.
Thanks!

[Soldier of Od]

Ah, this old chestnut!

Going by the Palladium Fantasy main book, you are correct: 2 attacks from most of the hand to hand skills at level one, plus 1 from boxing makes 3.

However... most of the other Palladium Books game lines grant characters an extra two attacks per melee regardless of hand to hand skill selection, commonly known here on the boards as "2 attacks for living". It wasn't always clear in all the books exactly whether these 2 extra attacks should be applied, but it was made clearer in later editions of the main books, and to clarify it in Rifts Ultimate Edition they altered the description to start the hand to hand attacks at 4. However, there hasn't been a revision of Palladium Fantasy since this came up, so the rules still say just 2. As later Palladium Fantasy sourcebooks were published, there seems to have been some confusion and inconsistency as to how the rules should be applied, probably due to influence from the other game lines, as some of the NPCs published have only the hand to hand attacks and some have the extra 2 attacks for living, despite it not being a written rule in a Palladium Fantasy book. I think there may have been a statement made somewhere by Kevin stating that the 2 attacks for living should now be applied to Palladium Fantasy as well, but I'm afraid if it does exist I can't remember where, sorry! However, this doesn't solve the issue that not all of the NPCs are consistent with regards to attacks per melee.

We played Palladium Fantasy for years before the change was made, and years more before we even knew it was a thing, so we never bothered to change it in our own campaign, and we still stick with the original rules in the main PFRPG book.
The number of attacks per melee round can make an absolutely massive difference in combat, so you should probably make a decision on which option you prefer and stick with it!

[Tiltowait]

Oh so that's how it goes.

Thanks for explaining!

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yep, the PF2 core book is the oldest core book in the current canon. Thus, there are some things that need updating. Thou, I wouldn't change the changing class rules that are published in the each PCC and the High Seas book.

I.e.

Spoiler:

Fixing the misuse of the term OCC would to be to NOT to use it to refer to ALL the character classes, and just to use it to to label the Job Classes. Just like PCCs should only be used to label Psychic Char Classes, and RCC only to be used to label Racial Classes.

In other words, only use the label that match the Words in that form said labels. To do otherwise is to sow the confusion you want to avoid.

Not doing things this way is why, at least this person found the labelling changes in RUE were <descriptive adverb> Stupid. By adding confusion about what sort of CC the class was by using the wrong ones.

Afterword: I typically make PF chars with just the canon listings. it is easy enough to add in two APM if the GM plays with the 2APMFL.

[Reagren Wright]

You are correct that inconsistency has appeared in earlier PF cannon books, however the goal has been to make sure Palladium Books is written as on big megaversal system. Which
means characters can travel to any of the worlds (genres) without to much conversion (S.D.C. to M.D.C.). You have every right to keep your characters written to the rules as they
appeared in PFRPG 2nd edition in 1996 and continues to say in any PFRPG book you purchase now. However, I can assure you every NPC you see in "official" material after 2014 in
Rifters, Bizantium, Lopan, and others will have everyone starting with the initial two attacks and then adding in those with Hand to Hand. This changes of course if the
character decided to take no form of hand to hand combat, starting with 1 attack/action at first level and increasing to two at level three. Kevin in Garden of the Gods I believe
purposely left out the number of attacks available for stated NPCs for GMs to determine which they prefer to go by. Old official material or the universally accepted criteria of the
Palladium Megaversal system. Some systems will always have some "slight variances" but the hand to hand combat system has been standardized since Rifts Ultimate edition came
out. So its the same in Chaos Earth, Beyond the Supernatural 2nd edition, Dead Reign, the no longer licensed Robotech sourcebooks, and Splicers.
Heroes and Nightbane are using the old updated system prior to Rifts Ultimate Edition, and Palladium Fantasy clings to its original 1st edition left over start with 1 attack, two if you
take a Hand to Hand. It will take a while but we will slowly get PF updated and compatible with the others sourcebooks, for example Garden of the Gods now has the Perception Rolls.
Working on getting newer skills and other materials in future sourcebooks. Ultimately it will be G.M.s. choice to give the players the initial two or have them start off with one prior to
taking hand to hand.

[Curbludgeon]

I don't usually scour NPC stats, so providing a date after which PFRPG updated to the current canon is useful. Thanks. If, Mr. Wright, you were to consider leveraging your influence with PB so as to get confirmation of this added alongside entries such as the Dual O.C.C. rules in the setting's published errata, I think it might help this perennial thread topic from cropping up in the future.

Also, is there any chance of your fiction being released in an .epub or .pdf? Some of the older paperbacks seem to be getting harder to find.

[Prysus]

I don't usually scour NPC stats, so providing a date after which PFRPG updated to the current canon is useful.

Greetings and Salutations. If you want dates ... Book 8: Western Empire still used the original 2 attacks with hand to hand. Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands started the additional 2 attacks rule. Not sure of exact dates for the original releases (I'm going from memory as I've done this research in the past), but that should give a good guideline. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Soldier of Od]

I don't usually scour NPC stats, so providing a date after which PFRPG updated to the current canon is useful.

Greetings and Salutations. If you want dates ... Book 8: Western Empire still used the original 2 attacks with hand to hand. Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands started the additional 2 attacks rule. Not sure of exact dates for the original releases (I'm going from memory as I've done this research in the past), but that should give a good guideline. Farewell and safe journeys.

That's really useful, thanks!

[Stone Gargoyle]

I give the 2AFL in my games, but then mine are usually a mix of HU2 and other sources.