Thoughts on Palladium Fantasy RPG?

[balramdau94]

Listening to the recent System Mastery episode informed me that Palladium Fantasy RPG is a game that exists. Would anyone like to share their experiences playing that? I always hear about how RIFTS itself is (hilariously) broken and/or overwrought. Does this game suffer from that same fate as well?

[kiralon]

Palladium is a good game but suffers from a few things too, but on the whole is my preferred system.

Cons:
- Game mechanics can be troublesome due to bad descriptions of things.
- Too many things copy pasted with some things changed to try and fit rather than a rewrite.
- Too many attacks per round for fighter types, it's not actually hard to get 12 attacks a round, and depending on how you play, lvl 1 characters can start with 4, however the limitations on the casters means they tend to get half or less actions than the fighters, so the wizards and priests can get bored at the table easily while waiting for their spells to go off, this one is one of my pet peeves with the second ed version, other than sdc for living things (That don't have exoskeletons).
e.g. There is a multi armed race that can get, depending on how you read it, something like 128 attacks per round, the creator didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it often get's interpreted, but the only errata for it was someone who heard him speak somewhere mentioning it.
- Very little errata, you would think with a system this old there would be buckets of errata, but nope, the answer is figure it out yourself/roll 1d6 1-3 no, 4-6 yes/argue for hours (The latter is common).
- Not modern day friendly, pdf's are out and about, but any tools that help for game creation are generally aggressively shut down, an interactive character sheet only came out in the last few years, and that was done by a fan who seemed to have to jump through hoops have it allowed on the internet. Try finding roll 20 or tabletop modules for it.
- Generally has have homebrewed rules to be played

Pro's
Good to see you made it this far.
- Generally has have homebrewed rules to be played, yep this is also an upside too at times.
- Multiversal compatibility, want to go to a james bond world, or teenage mutant ninja turtles, or a dark shadowy future, or fly around in veritech fighters, or have zombie fun. There are multiple worlds and the games are the same enough that only a small amount of conversion is needed.
- Generally has to have home brewed rules to be played.
Palladium Fantasy is an awesome world to play in, with a rich history and lots of places to go and see and do. Having played games in multiple different worlds its better than all the others i played from greyhawk to faerun to warhammer and star wars, and in a way, the systems issues have gone a way into making the system what it is today, but in saying that there is a lot more difference in the games from one dm to another, just because of the way things are written.

TLDR:
Game mechanics not greatest, game world is awesome.

[Library Ogre]

Palladium is a good game but suffers from a few things too, but on the whole is my preferred system.

Cons:
- Game mechanics can be troublesome due to bad descriptions of things.
- Too many things copy pasted with some things changed to try and fit rather than a rewrite.
- Too many attacks per round for fighter types, it's not actually hard to get 12 attacks a round, and depending on how you play, lvl 1 characters can start with 4, however the limitations on the casters means they tend to get half or less actions than the fighters, so the wizards and priests can get bored at the table easily while waiting for their spells to go off, this one is one of my pet peeves with the second ed version, other than sdc for living things (That don't have exoskeletons).
e.g. There is a multi armed race that can get, depending on how you read it, something like 128 attacks per round, the creator didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it often get's interpreted, but the only errata for it was someone who heard him speak somewhere mentioning it.

On this note, I'd phrase it this way:

Palladium is not a closely-written game, and the mechanics have not be heavily examined by the lead designer. They are the way he likes them, he knows what he means, and that's that. However, they're also a 30 year old modification to a 40 year old set of house rules for another game entirely... itself somewhat bodged together from an entirely different genre.

As it is not a closely-written game, you get a lot of issues where folks try to read it closely, and wind up confused. Folks argue legalistically about a game that's a lot more impressionistic; they argue clauses when it's been pretty clear for decades that the game isn't written that way.

Personally, I have other games I prefer.

[Kraynic]

I have to say I'm not real familiar with the rules of the 2nd edition Fantasy game, which would be the easiest one to get your hands on. Part of the reason for the rewrite was to bring the Fantasy game more in line with Rifts so that characters could be converted from a Fantasy game and slot into a Rifts game if so desired. That is the intent of the whole "Paladium Megaverse". Everything is (to a certain extent) connected through Rifts.

Personally, I would recommend getting the 1E (Revised) main book if you can find a used one. It has everything needed to run a game: a good array of character classes, spells, gear, a bunch of races, a condensed bestiary, deities, etc. Everything you need is there. Some of those things were moved out in 2E, meaning that you might feel the need to invest in more books (just to have a similar amount of material to draw from) for a system you aren't sure you will continue using. Then, if you enjoy the game, invest in some other books for 1E if you can find them, or move up to 2E.

I'm going to disagree with Kiralon in one thing. I don't really think the mechanics are bad, though that may be that the game system just "clicked" with me when I picked it up. The philosophy of a lot of older table top games rely on the person running the game to make rulings on things. If you have players that won't trust (you) their GM to run the game fairly, this is NOT the system for your group. Just look at the xp system. It is not a "kill x creature and get y xp" sort of system. It is a "what did your character do, how hard was it, did it succeed, why did you do it, how did that plan/action affect the group and the world around you" sort of system. There has to be a good level of trust, or else even the core character advancement won't work in this game system. If your players trust you, then there won't be hours of argument. You will make a ruling. While players may have input, in the end it comes back to the person running the game and whether the players trust that person to run a "fair" game. Since (for the most part) PCs and NPCs don't operate any differently, it is pretty simple to make rulings. If a rule gets interpreted in such a way that it is really beneficial to a specific ability of a PC, then it is just as beneficial to an NPC with that same ability. Then the question becomes "can the PCs handle having that ruling used against them". If not, then don't make that ruling, or change it to something that won't break your game as soon as you realize it is a problem. I may just be lucky, but I haven't had any problem with players when making rulings in that fashion.

One thing I should add about the xp system is that it affects how you approach the game world. While the game definitely can handle combat, and can have fairly tactical combat that is different than what people are used to from D&D and similar games, you don't need combat to progress characters. Outside the men of arms, being trained in hand to hand combat is mostly optional (at least in 1E) and not a default skill. I have run one shot games using a group of pre-generated entertainers, most of which had no hand to hand training or weapon proficiencies. If you want to run a campaign that is totally comprised of a bunch of traders that solve "Murder She Wrote" type mysteries in each town they come to and need saved by the guards at the last minute because they are helpless before the weapons of the "bad guys", you can do that in this game system. And the characters will still gain xp and become better merchants (or whatever) as the game goes on.

I have a game going on Roll20 that has been going for over 2 years now. None of the players were familiar with it before playing in my game. It is not a difficult game system to run or understand, or at least it hasn't been for me and my players over the years. I have even used it to run games when I was volunteering at a teen center. However, I will make no guarantees that it is always easy to find the info you are looking for, due to odd layout sometimes. Like (in the 1E main book) the price, weight, etc. of shields being by the weapon proficiencies instead of in the equipment section.

[kiralon]

I'm going to disagree with Kiralon in one thing. I don't really think the mechanics are bad, though that may be that the game system just "clicked" with me when I picked it up. snip

Having worked through the system with players who are used to less ambiguous systems, the mechanics are bad as you tend to have to house rule a lot of things rather than just play from the book. e.g. Can you tell me for certain what the priests turn dead works on/doesn't work on.
However i totally agree that first ed is superior to second ed. Try that before second ed, and drive through rpg does have it in pdf form.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Insurted my comments in Blue.

Palladium is a good game but suffers from a few things too, but on the whole is my preferred system.

Cons:
- Game mechanics can be troublesome due to bad descriptions of things. (This is true for all of the PB game books)
- Too many things copy pasted with some things changed to try and fit rather than a rewrite.(This is true for all of the PB game books)
- Too many attacks per round for fighter types, it's not actually hard to get 12 attacks a round, (not in PF w/o magic buffs. In HU I wouldn't argue with that there can be some impressive APM totals.) and depending on how you play, lvl 1 characters can start with 4, however the limitations on the casters means they tend to get half or less actions than the fighters (if you are importing the 2APMFL then you might as well use the option casting rules in MOM1, which are similar to the RUE casting rules. Which let mages cast low level spells one per APM.), so the wizards and priests can get bored at the table easily while waiting for their spells to go off, this one is one of my pet peeves with the second ed version (then use house rules that change this), other than sdc for living things (That don't have exoskeletons).
e.g. There is a multi (6 armed) armed race that can get, depending on how you read it, something like 128 attacks per round( you forgot to explain what circumstances this happens. I'm pretty sure it can't happen with just using the PF games's books. If you are going to complain about it then tell them how the munchkin built the char to get that many attacks. Note he said attacks and not APM. And He was right to state it that way even thou it is a bit misleading if the reader equates the word attacks to AMP.), the creator didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it often get's interpreted, but the only errata for it was someone who heard him speak somewhere mentioning it.The GM can just not allow this race from the LotD1 book if he/she doesn't like to deal with this sort of leaf-ear.
- Very little errata, you would think with a system this old there would be buckets of errata, but nope, the answer is figure it out yourself/roll 1d6 1-3 no, 4-6 yes/argue for hours (The latter is common).that is because most of the people that play PB games play rifts. And they ask questions about the Rifts game and not the PF game.
- Not modern day friendly, pdf's are out and about, but any tools that help for game creation are generally aggressively shut down, an interactive character sheet only came out in the last few years, and that was done by a fan who seemed to have to jump through hoops have it allowed on the internet. Try finding roll 20 or tabletop modules for it.
- Generally has have homebrewed rules to be played

Pro's
Good to see you made it this far.
- Generally has have homebrewed rules to be played, yep this is also an upside too at times.
- Multiversal compatibility, want to go to a james bond world, or teenage mutant ninja turtles, or a dark shadowy future, or fly around in veritech fighters, or have zombie fun. There are multiple worlds and the games are the same enough that only a small amount of conversion is needed.(yep, PB GMs can import both rules and characters between the different PB Games without many or any mods.)
- Generally has to have home brewed rules to be played. (duplicate point, that I don't agree with the words 'has to'. Just reamember to say the house rules you maybe posting are states as your house rules.) (yes I generally find GMing PF easier because there are less established RW ideas that inhibit creativity.)
Palladium Fantasy is an awesome world to play in, with a rich history and lots of places to go and see and do. Having played games in multiple different worlds its better than all the others i played from greyhawk to faerun to warhammer and star wars, and in a way, the systems issues have gone a way into making the system what it is today, but in saying that there is a lot more difference in the games from one dm to another, just because of the way things are written.

TLDR:
Game mechanics not greatest, game world is awesome.

Yes there is a multitude of errors in ALL the PB games which I would like to see fixed. But most of the time fixes seam to be only for Rifts.

"Game mechanics not greatest, game world is awesome." It doesn't take the greatest game system to have fun. & I think I've had more fun in in the PF games I've played in then in the rifts games I've played.

[Kraynic]

Having worked through the system with players who are used to less ambiguous systems, the mechanics are bad as you tend to have to house rule a lot of things rather than just play from the book. e.g. Can you tell me for certain what the priests turn dead works on/doesn't work on.

I guess that hasn't ever been a problem for me. I thought the book laid it out fairly well.

The rite of turning the dead is similar to an exorcism, except that it can be enacted almost immediately (2 melees) and affects only animated skeletons and corpses, mummies, and ghouls. This ability enables the priest to turn/repel the dead by commanding them to leave in the name of his deity(s). Although the priest can command the dead to leave, he cannot enforce his will or any other commands upon them; they will simply stop what they were doing and go away.
Vampires, ghosts, wraiths, and spectres may be temporarily kept at bay (at few feet away), hesitating (one or two melees) to attack and repulsed by the holy symbol. Devils and Demons are not affected at all.

Vampires are demons in the Palladium system, but are listed as something that Turn Dead has a limited effect on. The more powerful dead also have a certain amount of resistance, causing the ability to have limited effect. For the most obvious aspect of this ability, it is the counterbalance to the ability of Priests of Darkness to animate/control dead, the circle magic that does the same thing, and the Create Zombie spell.

[Veknironth]

Well, the cons are mostly correct. The books could use an update with some of the ambiguous rules clarified, or at least there being a robust errata available. I mean you can get most any question answered rather well here, but it won't be definitive. The support isn't as wide as other games and I think that's why it isn't as popular.

The following pros are my opinions. The combat system is what initially drew me to the system. The idea of actively defending and making a decision about how to defend was recolutionary to me. It feels a lot more like a real fight as opposed to so many other RPGs that seem to replicate video game rules. Rather than have a set of options from which to choose, your character can essentially do whatever he or she wants and then the rules are there to help you determine the outcome. There is nothing like having someone roll a 20 against you and then you roll a 20 to dodge or parry. Combat is much more dynamic and interesting.

The 2nd edition magic/spell casting system is as good as anything and better than most. You have a pool of energy and you use it to make spell effects. Spells have varying energy costs. And you can learn a spell at any level, you just need the energy to cast it. However, the spells increase as the character increases level. The same is true with psionic abilities. Although, psionics are given a benefit of being cast faster (see Kiralon). The spells per day or spell slots are inferior.

The world is a bit lower in magic and it's grittier. The entire game is a bit grittier. The races and peoples aren't so easily separated into good and evil. There is a lot more grey. The character creation takes a lot of time, but when you're done you have a well fleshed out PC. The skill selection portion of the character creation also makes for a lot of variation within classes. The down side for that is that you don't change as much as you level up.

The EXP chart, I prefer quite a bit to other systems. It isn't just a computer game grinding away killing mobs. It's more around the thought process and how you accomplish tasks. I vastly prefer that.

-Vek
"Although, I prefer a mix of 1st and 2nd edition rules."

[kiralon]

Having worked through the system with players who are used to less ambiguous systems, the mechanics are bad as you tend to have to house rule a lot of things rather than just play from the book. e.g. Can you tell me for certain what the priests turn dead works on/doesn't work on.

I guess that hasn't ever been a problem for me. I thought the book laid it out fairly well.

The rite of turning the dead is similar to an exorcism, except that it can be enacted almost immediately (2 melees) and affects only animated skeletons and corpses, mummies, and ghouls. This ability enables the priest to turn/repel the dead by commanding them to leave in the name of his deity(s). Although the priest can command the dead to leave, he cannot enforce his will or any other commands upon them; they will simply stop what they were doing and go away.
Vampires, ghosts, wraiths, and spectres may be temporarily kept at bay (at few feet away), hesitating (one or two melees) to attack and repulsed by the holy symbol. Devils and Demons are not affected at all.

Vampires are demons in the Palladium system, but are listed as something that Turn Dead has a limited effect on. The more powerful dead also have a certain amount of resistance, causing the ability to have limited effect. For the most obvious aspect of this ability, it is the counterbalance to the ability of Priests of Darkness to animate/control dead, the circle magic that does the same thing, and the Create Zombie spell.

Well ghouls are demons, and demons and devils are not affected at all.
Magic charms, mind control, sleeps, curses, illusions, illness, paralysis, and turn dead (the mummy is an undead) do nothing at all! Banishment does not work because the mummy is not actually a living supernatural creature. <--- page 211 of main book spell create mummy
and this line makes you think it won't work on anything other than things animated but the animate corpse powers, but the difference between undead and animated dead isn't discussed properly, and the 2 extra things that it mentions it works on have lines saying it doesn't. Lets just say those lines have caused a few arguments.
Also in second ed, because of the number of attacks the players get, missing 2 rounds of combat to do a turn dead generally means you have missed quite a lot of combat. If i did it in the high level game i played i might as well rolled the dice and went and watched a movie . . . or 2.

[Kraynic]

Well ghouls are demons, and demons and devils are not affected at all.
Magic charms, mind control, sleeps, curses, illusions, illness, paralysis, and turn dead (the mummy is an undead) do nothing at all! Banishment does not work because the mummy is not actually a living supernatural creature. <--- page 211 of main book spell create mummy
and this line makes you think it won't work on anything other than things animated but the animate corpse powers, but the difference between undead and animated dead isn't discussed properly, and the 2 extra things that it mentions it works on have lines saying it doesn't. Lets just say those lines have caused a few arguments.
Also in second ed, because of the number of attacks the players get, missing 2 rounds of combat to do a turn dead generally means you have missed quite a lot of combat. If i did it in the high level game i played i might as well rolled the dice and went and watched a movie . . . or 2.

Usually in game rules there are general rules and more specific rules that give exceptions or clarifications to the more general rule. Yes, it affects mummies and ghouls, because it says right in the ability text that it does. Banshees are also demons, but since they are not something listed as affected in some way, they fall under the "demons aren't affected" general rule.

Maybe the confusion is due to mixing editions, because on page 211 of of the 1E revised book are the listings for the Kukulcan and Thunder Lizard. The Create Zombies Spell on page 73 does not mention any immunity to turn dead, though it does mention the immunity to charms, mesmerism, etc. To my knowledge, there isn't a Create Mummy spell in 1E (if there is, then it isn't in a book I own), the core (revised) book condensed entry for mumies on page 233 doesn't mention any resistance to turn dead, and the 1st Edition Monsters and Animals book more fleshed out entry on mummies doesn't list any immunity to turn dead on page 61.

So, maybe I have had it better by mostly ignoring that a 2nd Edition exists? Those conflicts simply don't exist in 1E as far as I can tell.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I've found the game lacking in a lot of areas, mainly game mechanics-wise. It is a good system to borrow ideas from and use as source material, but it wold be nice if they had consistent rules throughout their books, as some of the books are still only first edition even though the core rules are second edition. You pretty much have to house rule it if you want it to function well as a complete game.

[kiralon]

Maybe the confusion is due to mixing editions, because on page 211 of of the 1E revised book are the listings for the Kukulcan and Thunder Lizard. The Create Zombies Spell on page 73 does not mention any immunity to turn dead, though it does mention the immunity to charms, mesmerism, etc. To my knowledge, there isn't a Create Mummy spell in 1E (if there is, then it isn't in a book I own), the core (revised) book condensed entry for mumies on page 233 doesn't mention any resistance to turn dead, and the 1st Edition Monsters and Animals book more fleshed out entry on mummies doesn't list any immunity to turn dead on page 61.

So, maybe I have had it better by mostly ignoring that a 2nd Edition exists? Those conflicts simply don't exist in 1E as far as I can tell.

The mummy in 2nd ed split into 2 sort of, the entry in the 1st ed monsters and animals book turned into the mummy immortalus in the second ed book, and the standard mummy (like out of the first ed book) was made by the spell.
But yes the first ed book had different issues, but it still had enough to have plenty of arguments about due to lack of information/ambiguous wording/errors.
I'm guessing you have never had an air warlock try to get a phantom to pick up a cow and throw it at someone lol.
But on the whole i agree with you, my homebrew is based off first ed with some second ed stuff imported.

[Kraynic]

I'm guessing you have never had an air warlock try to get a phantom to pick up a cow and throw it at someone lol.
But on the whole i agree with you, my homebrew is based off first ed with some second ed stuff imported.

No, I haven't. I have had someone ask about the P.S., and I have told them the 221 is a misprint, and it is just 22. That would be 2 higher than the Phantom Footman, but I have to admit to never trying to look it up in errata at all, so maybe it should be 21 and I am giving them an extra! I suppose that still leaves open throwing a calf, goat, or sheep at someone... but no one has done that to me yet. If my players do something like that soon, I will blame it on you for somehow jinxing me.

[Hotrod]

Listening to the recent System Mastery episode informed me that Palladium Fantasy RPG is a game that exists. Would anyone like to share their experiences playing that? I always hear about how RIFTS itself is (hilariously) broken and/or overwrought. Does this game suffer from that same fate as well?

My overall thoughts:

The Good:
+The setting. In general, the Palladium Fantasy world is one of the best-developed worlds out there. It's a vibrant world.
+The rules: In general, they work pretty well for a fantasy setting. You need to be a little fast and loose, and house rules are a given, but the rules work better for this setting than the more modern settings. Megaversal compatibility with other settings is also nice.
+The art: Palladium has a clean layout with a lot of nice artwork mixed in.
+The maps: not to beat my own drum or anything, but there are some pretty sweet ones available if you ask for them in your Xmas grab bag.
+The characters: Players tend to get invested into their characters and spend some significant time making them. I remember every Palladium character I've ever played.

The Bad:
-The rules: While they work well for a dungeon crawl, they can get a little clunky when you start trying to run things like ship-to-ship combat, battles above the small skirmish level, contested skill rolls out of combat, and some little oddities here and there. Shield rules, armor rules, and size scaling can be a little strange.
-The maps: that Hotrod guy needs to hurry up and get more Palladium Fantasy maps made and published. Slacker.
-The characters: Character creation takes a long time, and a lot of that time comes down to cross-referencing and looking stuff up as you go
-GM Aids: The game could use more instant-NPC-generators, spell selector tools, and other such stuff like what I've put up on my Patreon page (not to beat my drum or anything).