Bio-systems debate

[PSI-Lence]

I've been having an ongoing "debate" about Bio-Systems and looking for a definitive answer since the books are... well you know.

They say Bio-Systems are cybernetic (which a few books do say "cybernetic Bio-systems") which are fully mechanical with a living skin coating, and Bio-Systems can make you a cyborg.

Going by coalition war Campaign for decommissioned borgs, Bio-Systems are said to be flesh and blood, cloned from the characters DNA (which seems to me why magic users would opt for bio-systems to not suffer penalties) and sounds to me like they should heal.

in the RMB it does only give bio-system limbs SDC though, not HP/SDC (and it still calls them mechanical)
is there a final answer to this, even in any errata/Q&A?

[glitterboy2098]

I've generally figured they're a mix.. that they use cultured tissues over a framework of artificial parts, resulting in a blend. So like, a biosystem limb is an artificial skeleton with cultured tissue muscles and skin and mostly artificial main nerves controlling it.

[Warshield73]

I've generally figured they're a mix.. that they use cultured tissues over a framework of artificial parts, resulting in a blend. So like, a biosystem limb is an artificial skeleton with cultured tissue muscles and skin and mostly artificial main nerves controlling it.

This is what I always figured, always thought about it in terms of the terminator.

[ShadowLogan]

In practical games terms I suspect one of two basic answers:
1. Hit Points are only contained in the "main body" not limbs (are there any creatures w/locations breakdowns for SDC/HP to compare to)
2. the SDC for the bio-system limb is for the mechanical aspect only, the organic part counts as part of the regular HP/SDC pool (and "heals" as part of that pool as text in RMB for the limbs establishes the BSL and host share blood, the inorganic part does not, unless your maybe a CK).

Though there is only one basic way you can damage the limb in any case: the attack is targeting the limb in question (either via called shot or the "nature" of the "attack").

We also know from World Book 2 (pg35) that the Bio-System limbs, even with its cloned tissues, is still considered artificial and inferior to a Fast Grown Cloned Limb. The Kittani can Clone and grow a new arm/hand in less than 2 weeks, and the cost of these cloned limbs are 50% higher.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've generally figured they're a mix.. that they use cultured tissues over a framework of artificial parts, resulting in a blend. So like, a biosystem limb is an artificial skeleton with cultured tissue muscles and skin and mostly artificial main nerves controlling it.

This is what I always figured, always thought about it in terms of the terminator.

Yup.

[PSI-Lence]

In practical games terms I suspect one of two basic answers:
1. Hit Points are only contained in the "main body" not limbs (are there any creatures w/locations breakdowns for SDC/HP to compare to)
2. the SDC for the bio-system limb is for the mechanical aspect only, the organic part counts as part of the regular HP/SDC pool (and "heals" as part of that pool as text in RMB for the limbs establishes the BSL and host share blood, the inorganic part does not, unless your maybe a CK).

Though there is only one basic way you can damage the limb in any case: the attack is targeting the limb in question (either via called shot or the "nature" of the "attack").

We also know from World Book 2 (pg35) that the Bio-System limbs, even with its cloned tissues, is still considered artificial and inferior to a Fast Grown Cloned Limb. The Kittani can Clone and grow a new arm/hand in less than 2 weeks, and the cost of these cloned limbs are 50% higher.

I was hoping (against all reason) that there would be a specific cannon answer with book and page number lol
It was a thought that since CWC lists them as being flesh and blood cloned from DNA (in the section of decommissioning borgs) which does not mention any inorganic material, that the tech had been noted as advancing since RMB was printed and that there was no longer a non-biological component

I was thinking that the SDC of the limb could have left out the HP (especially in RMB where even most armor doesn't have MDC for limbs mentioned)


the hitching point for me are they are sometimes listed as "Cybernetic Bio-System" meaning that if someone had their legs and an arm blown off, and replaced with Bio-Systems they would be considered a partial conversion cyborg (which seems counter to what's intended)

as for other terminology a hybrid flower is entirely organic, but is also artificial (it seems this would extend to fully organic cloned limbs, meeting the definition of man-made)

Mechanical normally in reference to working parts of a machine, like pistons or gears in an engine (or valves and hydraulics in a cybernetic/bionic limb) but, if someone wants to be pedantic, it can mean anything made by a machine, so a wooden baseball bat, made on a CNC lathe would meet the definition of mechanical, and yet be fully organic (this would also seem to extend to a limb grown out of entirely organic matter, as the body fixer/cyber doc would be using a machine, not manipulating DNA by hand)

so calling Bio-Systems mechanical, or artificial does not automatically exclude them being entirely organic (or even built on a inorganic lattice that eventually breaks down and is absorbed by the body)

[Orin J.]

the bio-systems in the original rulebook describes the organs as being "grown around cybernetic components", but the limbs are just cloned skin over a mechancial limb with computerized nerves..... i think there's a certain level of disconnect going on with the technology from the beginning, considering the technology is supposed to involve genetic engineering.

[ShadowLogan]

I was hoping (against all reason) that there would be a specific cannon answer with book and page number lol
It was a thought that since CWC lists them as being flesh and blood cloned from DNA (in the section of decommissioning borgs) which does not mention any inorganic material, that the tech had been noted as advancing since RMB was printed and that there was no longer a non-biological component

Well cloning is connected with the technology even in RMB, all CWC does is establish the DNA involved in the process comes from the intended recipient IMHO. I would not take the absence of referring to the inorganic material either as evidence it is no longer needed (at least at CS tech levels), because it is entirely possible the passage is not intended as a complete description of the hardware, just clarification of the existing information.

the hitching point for me are they are sometimes listed as "Cybernetic Bio-System" meaning that if someone had their legs and an arm blown off, and replaced with Bio-Systems they would be considered a partial conversion cyborg (which seems counter to what's intended)

IMHO, Full Conversion Cyborgs are using Bionic level equipment, even those with high degree of Bio-Systems or regular Cybernetics are not Cyborgs, at least in terms of how Palladium considers them.

More than two mechanical bionic limbs (other than hands and feet) or six bionic implants (not cybernetic) requires a character to change to a Cyborg O.C.C. Note: Bio-Systems don't count, nor do internal organs that do NOT provide significant augmentation or special powers, nor do cosmetic cybernetics.

[PSI-Lence]

I was hoping (against all reason) that there would be a specific cannon answer with book and page number lol
It was a thought that since CWC lists them as being flesh and blood cloned from DNA (in the section of decommissioning borgs) which does not mention any inorganic material, that the tech had been noted as advancing since RMB was printed and that there was no longer a non-biological component

Well cloning is connected with the technology even in RMB, all CWC does is establish the DNA involved in the process comes from the intended recipient IMHO. I would not take the absence of referring to the inorganic material either as evidence it is no longer needed (at least at CS tech levels), because it is entirely possible the passage is not intended as a complete description of the hardware, just clarification of the existing information.

the hitching point for me are they are sometimes listed as "Cybernetic Bio-System" meaning that if someone had their legs and an arm blown off, and replaced with Bio-Systems they would be considered a partial conversion cyborg (which seems counter to what's intended)

IMHO, Full Conversion Cyborgs are using Bionic level equipment, even those with high degree of Bio-Systems or regular Cybernetics are not Cyborgs, at least in terms of how Palladium considers them.

More than two mechanical bionic limbs (other than hands and feet) or six bionic implants (not cybernetic) requires a character to change to a Cyborg O.C.C. Note: Bio-Systems don't count, nor do internal organs that do NOT provide significant augmentation or special powers, nor do cosmetic cybernetics.

Well at least in CWC it also didn't call them "Cybernetic Bio-Systems" just "Bio-System" I don't remember ever seeing a total breakdown of exactly what "Bio-Systems" are (of course we can't exactly get medical text levels of descriptions for things that don't exist)


That page number is a huge help, by directly excluding Bio-Systems. but unfortunately still makes things more vague. right below it
"more than 12 Cybernetic implants and 1 Cybernetic (or bionic) limb" leading to "Partial Cyborg"
and sometimes "Bio-systems" are called cybernetic, although I think this will at least shut them up on the notion that one can be a "Bio-System Cyborg" at least

I can't remember if it was just head cannon, or if it was listed in one of the magic books (I'll have to check) that Bio-Systems do not interfere with casting (I know most Magic OCC's say they avoid cybernetics but will get bio-systems if needed) it would seem to rule them out as "cybernetics" if they don't interfere
(Or if cybernetics were listed as MDC since Bio-Systems are SDC, but I don't remember any hard rules on that for cybernetics)


EDIT: great found the rule in BOM (page 226-227) that gives the details for cybernetics or bionics effects on magic users, and that bio-systems revert all the negative effects ... and then goes on to call Bio-Systems "BIONIC prosthetics, covered in living tissue"

[ShadowLogan]

Well at least in CWC it also didn't call them "Cybernetic Bio-Systems" just "Bio-System" I don't remember ever seeing a total breakdown of exactly what "Bio-Systems" are (of course we can't exactly get medical text levels of descriptions for things that don't exist)

I think you can think of Cybernetic Bio-Systems as the full name, which is shortened to just Bio Systems. In the Bionics Source Book, when a Cybernetic Device has a Bio-System option it is listed as having that option.

That page number is a huge help, by directly excluding Bio-Systems. but unfortunately still makes things more vague. right below it

I don't think it does. Bio-Systems are repeatedly called out as being exempt from the contributing toward a conversion implant total (and even in that passage). That section also doesn't say if you have X your now considered a Borg, what it says is "strongly suggests the character wants to be at least a partial cyborg", at that point the character is not technically a Cyborg (though the GM can declare it), but it also points out there are exceptions (class based, and some implants do not qualify, even the performance of an implant can lead toward it not counting).

EDIT: great found the rule in BOM (page 226-227) that gives the details for cybernetics or bionics effects on magic users, and that bio-systems revert all the negative effects ... and then goes on to call Bio-Systems "BIONIC prosthetics, covered in living tissue"

Rifts Book of Magic Pg226-227 is Stone Magic, you must be referring to pg276-7 (also found in Bionic Source Book pg50-1).

Honestly I would put this down to poor editing in terms of use.

[ITWastrel]

I've always run Bio-Systems as a third category of replacements. Bionics, Cybernetics, and Bio Systems.

Bio Systems are mainly organic, flesh and blood. Permanently affixed and integrated with existing tissues. Bio-systems heal in place, they share blood and nerves with the host, the artificial bone heals seamlessly to existing bone.

This distinction sets Bio-Systems apart from cybernetics, artificial implants and replacements that interact with biology but are apart from it. I can swap out my cybernetic eye, my Bio-System eye would require much more planning. And bleeding. And pain.


Bio-Systems, by design, have no impact on OCC abilities and do not require a class change at any time.

[PSI-Lence]

I've always run Bio-Systems as a third category of replacements. Bionics, Cybernetics, and Bio Systems.

Bio Systems are mainly organic, flesh and blood. Permanently affixed and integrated with existing tissues. Bio-systems heal in place, they share blood and nerves with the host, the artificial bone heals seamlessly to existing bone.

that is basically how I always looked at it, until the other person was talking about "bio-system cyborgs" and quoted books, I had never noticed they even said "cybernetic Bio-System" which seems like more of a misprint since they don't function as cybernetics in any way (except some very minor eye functions, that I chocked up to an artificial lense in a bio-system eye)

[Library Ogre]

I tend to view it as "biological except for a few places where cybernetics are more advantageous".

So, living bone has a lot of advantages, and helps produce blood, so they probably use living bone. Living muscles can be repaired by the body's systems so they probably use living muscle tissue. Cartilage? Cartilage degrades over time, doesn't heal well, and can, at Rifts-level tech, be replaced without a real issue. So a bio-system arm is likely a biological arm with artificial cartilage and maybe some integrative tech on the nerves (i.e. something to connect the body's nerves to the new biological nerves). IMO, bio-systems have no real impact on magic or psionics... they're partially cybernetic, but not much more than a pacemaker, a skin graft, and some pins in your bones.

[hup7]

The way I read The Bionics Sourcebook it all depends on how much you want to spend:
"Bio-Systems always cost much more than mechanical simulations, because of the complexity in creating a cyber-part that combines both living matter and micro-machinery, and because of the cosmetic superiority of the item." p31

I think people confuse Cybernetics and Bionics as separate things... "Bionics ARE advanced cybernetic systems" p28.

There are five classifications of cybernetics (p29/30):
Medical Cybernetics
Commercial Implants
Cosmetic Cybernetics
Illegal Cybernetics
Bionics (advanced cybernetics for augmentation and combat)

So really how much of a bio-system is living tissue and how much is machine? "How much are you willing to pay and how GOOD at their job is your surgeon?"

Depending on how advanced your surgeon's skills / lab / resources are bio-systems could be 100% living replacements or a piece of wood strapped to your knee.

[green.nova343]

The main purpose to have SDC/MDC for a bionic or cybernetic limb is so that if someone makes a called shot, the GM will know whether it's been destroyed or not. Otherwise, you don't need to really worry about it (as for making called shots to a 100% flesh-and-blood limb, I'd say treat it like the optional "critical damage" charts, where the character temporarily or permanently loses use and/or attribute points due to the damage).

I would imagine that, as mentioned in WB8 (Japan), the Coalition (or at least the elites and those that can bring the cash) would have access to cloned replacement parts. It's literally their own flesh, just grown in a lab. That would be the perfect replacement method for captured mages that are unwilling recipients of bionics & cybernetics. Beyond that, I would run with the description of Bio-Systems as an alternative for mages that suffer crippling damage. Since the Bio-Systems are listed as using actual flesh & blood in them (at least the truly expensive ones, as opposed to a mix of SDC cybernetics), I would allow mages that use Bio-System replacements to continue using their magic abilities with no modification...as long as the Bio-Systems don't provide any augmentation over their original attributes. For example, if your mage had a PS 12 & PP 17, then as long as that Bio-Systems right arm they installed has the same stats (PS 12, PP 17) & is 100% Bio-Systems (no cybernetic systems), then they have no worries about losing access to their PPE base or having to spend more due to "cybernetic interference". But if they were too tempted & had the arm made just a tad "stronger, faster" (even just PS 13, PP 18), then even a 100% Bio-Systems replacements is included in the count of how many limb replacements/minor implants they can have before the interference starts happening.

Beyond that...the house rule I have is that the active power systems & "man-machine interface" in cybernetic & bionic systems doesn't actually destroy the mage's supernatural abilities or PPE/ISP base...it just creates a barrier that completely locks it down so they can't access it. TW-powered cybernetics, however, would be a way around it...as would replacing any traditional cybernetics or bionics with 100% Bio-Systems later on (or even simply replacing lost limbs with a peg leg, eye patch, & a hook hand). But that's more my house rule...