Missiles

[Rifter11]

Does anyone else find the missile combat rules broken? I don't mind my players having access to lots of damage but I'm worried about PA and Robot villains with hordes of mini missiles easily taking out the players.

I mean a single Coalition PA pilot with a missile rifle can dish out an un-dodgeable 4d6x10 m.d.c. per attack and can do it 5 times before running out of missiles. That means, if he hits, in one melee round he has probably taken out 5 people in body armor. And I don't even want to get into what a Missile-man PA or that robot in Triax 2 could do.

[Orin J.]

ingoring the fact i dunno what missile rifle you think is in the CS toumain that fires salvoes, usually the tradeoff is that the cost is pretty dang high and that you have a chance to shoot them out of the air.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I mean a single Coalition PA pilot with a missile rifle can dish out an un-dodgeable 4d6x10 m.d.c. per attack and can do it 5 times before running out of missiles.

Please be more specific in what you are talking about here.

Like...
-what missile rifle?
-what sort of mecha the CS pilot is in?

The only 'missile rifle' I can think of that the CS has, is in the CS War Campaign. I think that has a min. PS limit for usage.

The badies are not always dumb mooks. They get to be smart also. And if that means that if they have the means to get a bunch of missile launchers, that can use them in an over-kill situation. If they see fit to do it that way.

[Rifter11]

Missile rifle is on page 95 of coalition war campaign. It says it is standard issue for the Special Forces Striker SAMAS and frequently used by the Terror Trooper, full conversion borgs and the occasional Juicer. It does have a Strength limit. Oh, and the Striker has 28 mini-missiles of its own.

[Orin J.]

checking the book, i had forgotten it could fire vollies. regardless, you should generally not be playing to "empty the bandoleers" against every foe you run up against, GM or PCs. unloading your guns to take out a few low-level chaff only for the real threat to pop their heads out when you're at a disadvantage is not good, and assuming you don't have to worry about that sort of thing is to discard the main advantage of tabletop RPGs for the mindset of a console JRPG.

also if your PCs have earned the wrath of the CS state's "special" special forces (as opposed to the thousand or so not-so-special special forces groups they have for whatever reason...) then they should probably be keeping a wary eye out anyways.

[Axelmania]

The big counter is basically if you have a mini-missile launcher you can take down the volley and win the economics war.

Missile launchers are pretty bulky which is why that Naruni wrist-mounted micro-missile launcher in DB3 is pretty nice.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does anyone else find the missile combat rules broken?

Definitely.

I don't mind my players having access to lots of damage but I'm worried about PA and Robot villains with hordes of mini missiles easily taking out the players.

Then don't send PA and Bots with missiles against the players.

I mean a single Coalition PA pilot with a missile rifle can dish out an un-dodgeable 4d6x10 m.d.c. per attack and can do it 5 times before running out of missiles. That means, if he hits, in one melee round he has probably taken out 5 people in body armor. And I don't even want to get into what a Missile-man PA or that robot in Triax 2 could do.

1. The rule only applies to guided missiles.

RUE 364
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two and even three guided missiles... however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

2. Few missiles are guided

RUE 364:
Unless otherwise indicated in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle, or launcher description,
mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided
and
Except for multi-warhead and long range missiles (BOTH RARE), most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.

So unless a specific weapon either states that the missiles it fires are guided,
or the weapon fires multi-warhead and/or long range missiles,
you won't have that problem.

[guardiandashi]

Does anyone else find the missile combat rules broken?

Definitely.

I don't mind my players having access to lots of damage but I'm worried about PA and Robot villains with hordes of mini missiles easily taking out the players.

Then don't send PA and Bots with missiles against the players.

I mean a single Coalition PA pilot with a missile rifle can dish out an un-dodgeable 4d6x10 m.d.c. per attack and can do it 5 times before running out of missiles. That means, if he hits, in one melee round he has probably taken out 5 people in body armor. And I don't even want to get into what a Missile-man PA or that robot in Triax 2 could do.

1. The rule only applies to guided missiles.

RUE 364
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two and even three guided missiles... however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

2. Few missiles are guided

RUE 364:
Unless otherwise indicated in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle, or launcher description,
mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided
and
Except for multi-warhead and long range missiles (BOTH RARE), most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.

So unless a specific weapon either states that the missiles it fires are guided,
or the weapon fires multi-warhead and/or long range missiles,
you won't have that problem.

personally this is the change that I hated the most with ~RUE if I remember right.
in RMB and prior to RUE the standard was that Short range, medium range, and long range missiles ALL defaulted to being guided unless stated otherwise. Mini-missiles were typically UNGUIDED, I believe the exception was Macross 2 where all missiles (including mini-missiles) were guided.

after ~RUE all missiles default to unguided unless otherwise stated.

[Rifter11]

"1. The rule only applies to guided missiles.

RUE 364
Contrary to what one might think, a character can dodge one, two and even three guided missiles... however it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously.

2. Few missiles are guided

RUE 364:
Unless otherwise indicated in a specific weapon, robot, vehicle, or launcher description,
mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided
and
Except for multi-warhead and long range missiles (BOTH RARE), most missiles on Rifts Earth are NOT guided.

So unless a specific weapon either states that the missiles it fires are guided,
or the weapon fires multi-warhead and/or long range missiles,
you won't have that problem.[/quote]"


That actually helps a lot. Thanks!

Edit: added qoutes

[Killer Cyborg]

So unless a specific weapon either states that the missiles it fires are guided,
or the weapon fires multi-warhead and/or long range missiles,
you won't have that problem.

personally this is the change that I hated the most with ~RUE if I remember right.
in RMB and prior to RUE the standard was that Short range, medium range, and long range missiles ALL defaulted to being guided unless stated otherwise. Mini-missiles were typically UNGUIDED, I believe the exception was Macross 2 where all missiles (including mini-missiles) were guided.

after ~RUE all missiles default to unguided unless otherwise stated.

Yeah, it's nuts. No idea why they did it that way, except I guess it was another attempt to fix player complaints that they can get killed sometimes.
That's what got us the GI Joe rule, too.

[ShadowLogan]

Does anyone else find the missile combat rules broken? I don't mind my players having access to lots of damage but I'm worried about PA and Robot villains with hordes of mini missiles easily taking out the players.

The simplest solutions in this regard then is to:
A. simply better matchup the villians capabilities vs the players
B. houserule a cap on the volley size of missile attacks.
C. Don't use the most damaging missile type available.

I mean a single Coalition PA pilot with a missile rifle can dish out an un-dodgeable 4d6x10 m.d.c. per attack and can do it 5 times before running out of missiles. That means, if he hits, in one melee round he has probably taken out 5 people in body armor. And I don't even want to get into what a Missile-man PA or that robot in Triax 2 could do.

As noted previously, that applies to guided missiles only, even back in RMB-era, and mini-missiles are not guided. Though the fact they are not guided and subject to WP rules can give them higher strike bonuses than the regular guided variety (which IINM only get their inherent bonuses), plus you can do called shots with them.

At 4d6x10, that's an average result of 140, certainly a lethal danger to body armor, but another typical power armor or robot (or heavy combat vehicle) is going to require multiple average damage hits.

Plus the players have several defensive options:
-they can dodge technically (the restriction is for guided missiles, and mini are not)
-they can shoot them down technically (though I did the math, and travel times involved I find it questionable if there is enough time, especially at closer ranges)
-they can parry or block the attack (Force Fields, physical shields, limb sacrifice)
-Roll with damage is an option, but it depends on the nature of the attack (in this form of combat, what can be rolled with is very limited)
-immunity/resistances (more for the magic/psionic, but there are a few tech examples).

Oh, and the Striker has 28 mini-missiles of its own.

Wow, 28 mini-missiles. I would then suggest you not look at the mecha in the Robotech or Macross 2 (discontinued) licenced lines... Rifts average skews light weight in comparison if we talk bots/pa mecha.

The big counter is basically if you have a mini-missile launcher you can take down the volley and win the economics war.

Well if we just focus on the economics a counter missile is going to be one of the more expensive options given:
-guns can do the same thing only cheaper, they down side is they have a lower chance to destroy the volley
-Tech Force Field, this means you redirect the damage, but since it "heals" for free given enough time
-Psionic/Magical Force Fields, means you redirect the damage, but in terms of credits how much would the expenditure of ISP or PPE amount to in this instance

also if your PCs have earned the wrath of the CS state's "special" special forces (as opposed to the thousand or so not-so-special special forces groups they have for whatever reason...) then they should probably be keeping a wary eye out anyways.

Then again if the CS isn't concerned with collateral damage, they could simply use artillery missiles to saturate an area (might not always work as evidence with SoT). Said action might also be more cost effective overall, and the CS at one time was known to bombard areas in WI (RMB).

[Blackwater Sniper]

Look to the type of battle you are in:

If the ones going up against your PCs are out to kill; yes, they may just unload if the threat is high enough.

If a scouting party accidentally runs across them, having over-powering weapons may not be in their inventory.

Looking to take prisoners or salvage parts, you want to do minimal damage but hit vulnerable points.

Either way, our GMs have always told us: Anything you can do or have so can those you go up against.

[Shark_Force]

I suppose it is possible for PCs to win the economics war against NPCs, but I wouldn't count on it with a typical GM because most GMs don't play their NPCs like they're going to want to save those resources for later.

in the case of a CS grunt, that's probably not *too* unreasonable... if they blow 300k worth of missiles on a single target, the CS missile budget can handle it. the soldier may face discipline for wasting resources if their superior officer thinks it was wasteful, but it's unlikely to bring about the downfall of the entire nation.

the average bandit group on the other hand is likely far more willing to spend missiles (and e-clips, grenades, armour, etc) to damage the things they're trying to salvage instead of trying to use threats and intimidation to get a double pay-out in the form of getting undamaged equipment and not having to use up expensive missiles, take damage to their armour that is costly and time-consuming to repair, and risk getting hurt. sure, they might use them if it becomes obvious that their target is winning the fight and they can't just run away (which is probably a cheaper and safer option than fighting a lot of the time), or if there's a *really* big score to be had, but most of the time... nah, that random group of heavily-armed adventurers are probably going to use up most of your loot in the process of defending said loot, and that assumes you win.

[Axelmania]

We could probably use some more interesting rules for shootin fdown volleys, I seem to recall something like if you deplete the MDC of one missile in a volley then there's a fixed % chance of destroying others, unless you also used a missile in which case it's a bit higher.

%s are weird though: shouldn't the damage of the missile you hit (and possibly the missile you hit it with) matter?

I'm thinking just consider volleys in each other's blast radius and:

1) roll the destroyed missile's damage (halved for indirect) for each other missile in the volley: if it's enough to deplete them then they go off, repeat process for any other undetonated missiles in volley

2) possibly also do same thing (half damage blast radius) for the missile you hit the targeted missile with (it's the only one that took full damage for direct hit)

The assumption that volleys are in each other's deadius doesn't really reward high blast radius missiles with higher damage/success but that's just how it goes.

[guardiandashi]

We could probably use some more interesting rules for shootin fdown volleys, I seem to recall something like if you deplete the MDC of one missile in a volley then there's a fixed % chance of destroying others, unless you also used a missile in which case it's a bit higher.

%s are weird though: shouldn't the damage of the missile you hit (and possibly the missile you hit it with) matter?

I'm thinking just consider volleys in each other's blast radius and:

1) roll the destroyed missile's damage (halved for indirect) for each other missile in the volley: if it's enough to deplete them then they go off, repeat process for any other undetonated missiles in volley

2) possibly also do same thing (half damage blast radius) for the missile you hit the targeted missile with (it's the only one that took full damage for direct hit)

The assumption that volleys are in each other's deadius doesn't really reward high blast radius missiles with higher damage/success but that's just how it goes.

the way the rules work
if a missiles MDC is depleted it detonates
with missiles destroyed by non missile weapons its ~35% likely to destroy the rest of the volley
if the counter fire was another missile it is 75% likely to detonate the whole volley most likely due to both the defensive missile, and the detonating volley missiles having blast radiuses'.

remember most missiles have very to extremely low MDC capacities. I want to say short range and minimissiles are in the 1-5 MDC range
medium range missiles are around 10-15ish and long range missiles are around 20-30ish (its been a while since I looked) but it doesn't take much to detonate them.

as far as crazy number of missiles I want to say the alpha fighters (and the vindicator) are way up there for robotech, with around 60-80 short range missiles, and the capability to fire ALL of them as a single volley

there are some units in macross 2 that actually carry more missiles (and in robotech) but those are the units that can fire some of the largest salvoes, but its a one shot attack as it depletes the entire payload.

but those franchises do take the idea of go big or go home for missile swarms to a new level.
personally I think the huge salvos are intended as a way for fighters to hurt or kill capital ships.

[Blue_Lion]

Generally most GM I played under do not tend to be out to kill the whole party. They might use missiles against the big tanky things.

Bandits will likely use missiles only when they need to. They cost allot and could potentially destroy the pay out. CS grunt might get chewed out if the brass catches him wasting missiles on low threat targets, that is what lasers are for.

Some issues of missiles can be solved by adding anti missile systems to the game.

[Mlp7029]

I would never have an NPC use a missile salvo on someone in body armor. Someone in PA maybe depends on how trained the NPC is in anti-armor tactics.

[ShadowLogan]

but those franchises do take the idea of go big or go home for missile swarms to a new level.
personally I think the huge salvos are intended as a way for fighters to hurt or kill capital ships.

Robotech (and its OSM counter parts) and Macross franchises don't have those missile swarms for anti-ship duty, there are a few examples in the animation where those are intended for anti-fighter swarm duty. In RT/GCM-OSM there is a scene where two Alphas empty their racks for a combined 30+ kills of enemy mecha (and blast radius doesn't work with the animation as an explanation), even the VF-1 uses a volley of (4) missiles to take out two Battlepods (blast radius also doesn't work) on several occasions, and IINM even target and engage multiple flying targets (this one might not be RT-Macross, but one of the later Macross properties).

Palladium really doesn't allow "fighter" scale engagements like this, they do have the random missile bombardment but those are intended for capital ships.

That isn't to say there aren't "fighter"-scale mecha that could launch an anti-ship missile swarm (Phalanx-type comes to mind), though IINM PB's classification of the missiles carried might be in error (in one episode the missiles are also used against ground targets at an airport, said launching mecha is also in said airport).

[Zer0 Kay]

Does anyone else find the missile combat rules broken? I don't mind my players having access to lots of damage but I'm worried about PA and Robot villains with hordes of mini missiles easily taking out the players.

I mean a single Coalition PA pilot with a missile rifle can dish out an un-dodgeable 4d6x10 m.d.c. per attack and can do it 5 times before running out of missiles. That means, if he hits, in one melee round he has probably taken out 5 people in body armor. And I don't even want to get into what a Missile-man PA or that robot in Triax 2 could do.

I don't remember missile rifles being able to fire salvos.

But yes. I prefer Mekton's method of missiles and dodging and/or shooting them down
I have alternately attempted to add in a rule that a pilot, on a successful dodge roll, dodges 1 missile per level and may then attempt to shoot the remainder if he has actions.

Mekton's method (IIRC) is attackers skill, attackers attribute, attackers roll, weapons bonus vs. defenders skill, defenders roll, defenders vehicle bonus. What ever the max difference is divide the volley up by that number and for each point the defender gets over the attackers roll he dodges that many missiles.

Since RT or Rifts can't do that I simply divide the volley by 10 and for each point the defender wins by they dodge that many missiles.

[Zer0 Kay]

So unless a specific weapon either states that the missiles it fires are guided,
or the weapon fires multi-warhead and/or long range missiles,
you won't have that problem.

personally this is the change that I hated the most with ~RUE if I remember right.
in RMB and prior to RUE the standard was that Short range, medium range, and long range missiles ALL defaulted to being guided unless stated otherwise. Mini-missiles were typically UNGUIDED, I believe the exception was Macross 2 where all missiles (including mini-missiles) were guided.

after ~RUE all missiles default to unguided unless otherwise stated.

Yeah, it's nuts. No idea why they did it that way, except I guess it was another attempt to fix player complaints that they can get killed sometimes.
That's what got us the GI Joe rule, too.

YO JOE!!!!

[green.nova343]

What always bothered me about the updated description in RUE is that the fundamental difference between rockets & missiles on the battlefield is that one uses a guidance system to zero in on its target (missile)...& the other has no guidance system (rocket). Which technically would mean that the vast majority of "missiles" actually fired on Rifts Earth are, in fact rockets.

Which then begs the bigger question: since these unguided rockets are interchangeable with missiles (future "plug-and-play"), that implies they're the same size as missiles of the same class...but if they don't devote any internal space to a guidance system, then why isn't the internal space used for a larger thruster/motor (faster flight speed and/or range), a larger warhead (extra damage), or both?

I know there are some...detailed...house rules out there on how to handle missiles in Rifts, but just to make it easier & to line up better with the regular ranged combat rules, maybe we can try the following:

• Except for LRMs & Multi-warhead MRMs, the vast majority of "missiles" in Rifts Earth are unguided rockets (call it 90%). Missiles are much more rare, & I would suggest doubling or tripling their cost compared to "rockets". (RUE says all LRMs & "multi-warhead" missiles are automatically guided; however, the only non-LRM "multi-warhead" missile is the MRM, so it makes more sense to include MRM in the sentence, IMHO). Unlike RUE, I will say that mini-missiles can be guided...but they're even more rare (only 5% chance), & they cost 5 times as much as the unguided versions. Adjust the percentages to 25% rockets (40% for mini-missiles) in the Chaos Earth setting (better access to advanced tech), & in the Three Galaxies/Phase World setting the characters can get easy access to guided missiles of all sizes (assuming they will fit into their launchers).
• Since rockets don't use space for a guidance package, they can be made more powerful than missiles: options are 50% more flight speed/range, 50% more damage (same blast radius), or 25% more speed/range/damage. Whether the GM determines which are available or he lets the players decide when they're purchased, they have to be designated at the time. Note the players will want to probably avoid mixing up the different types, as they'd otherwise have to track the different types whenever they fire them (& I would also recommend not allowing them to mix the types in a volley: you want to fire a volley of 4 rockets, you can't fire 2 "extended range" with 2 "increased damage", they all have to be the same mod). Characters with the Weapons Engineer skill can disassemble & modify the rockets, as well as convert a missile into a rocket (or vice versa), but I would recommend at least a -30% penalty to the roll (possibly even -40%); characters with the Field Armorer skill can work with Mini-missiles, SRMs, & MRMs (as each of those types are available in an infantry-launched model), but have an additional -10% penalty when working on SRMs & a -20% penalty working on MRMs; working on LRMs is impossible for them. Characters with Mechanical Engineer can attempt it, but use half their normal base (& the -30% or -40% penalty applies on top of that).
• Whether firing missiles or rockets, you need an 8 or better to hit (just like other ranged weapons). Note that otherwise, smart missiles would auto-hit (a +5 bonus when you only need a 5+ or better pretty much means that the only way to miss without the target attempting to dodge or parry is if you roll a natural 1; even a standard missile with a +3 bonus would only need a 2 or better to hit. Hence the change).
• Missiles have a +3 bonus (essentially meaning they need a 5 or better to hit), while "smart" missiles have a +5 bonus (so 3 or better to hit).
• Missiles or rockets fired from a handheld launcher (i.e. CR-1 mini-missile launcher), or from a forearm/wrist-mounted launcher on a Power Armor suit (i.e. the CM-2 launcher on the PA-06 SAMAS, NG-X9 Samson's forearm launcher, etc.) get a bonus if the player has the W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons skill. Missiles fired from a vehicle-style launcher on a conventional or giant robot vehicle, or even from a power armor suit (i.e. wing launchers on the FT-005 Flying Titan PA) get a bonus if the player has the Weapon Systems skill.
• Aside from those 2 skills, the only other bonus allowed is if the RPA skill or the particular PA suit/vehicle lists a specific bonus for ranged and/or missile combat (i.e. Power Armor Combat: Elite - Flying Power Armor lists a +2 bonus for firing ranged weapons).

[Jefffar]

What always bothered me about the updated description in RUE is that the fundamental difference between rockets & missiles on the battlefield is that one uses a guidance system to zero in on its target (missile)...& the other has no guidance system (rocket). Which technically would mean that the vast majority of "missiles" actually fired on Rifts Earth are, in fact rockets.

Which then begs the bigger question: since these unguided rockets are interchangeable with missiles (future "plug-and-play"), that implies they're the same size as missiles of the same class...but if they don't devote any internal space to a guidance system, then why isn't the internal space used for a larger thruster/motor (faster flight speed and/or range), a larger warhead (extra damage), or both?

There are currently modular guidance kits that can be attached to rockets of various sizes that allow them to be guided like a missile yet fired from the exact same laucnh interface without significant change to their payload, speed or range (other than the direct benefits of increased accuracy).

Thus it's possible that in Rifts the difference between guided and unguided is generally an add on package rather than a structural one.

[green.nova343]

What always bothered me about the updated description in RUE is that the fundamental difference between rockets & missiles on the battlefield is that one uses a guidance system to zero in on its target (missile)...& the other has no guidance system (rocket). Which technically would mean that the vast majority of "missiles" actually fired on Rifts Earth are, in fact rockets.

Which then begs the bigger question: since these unguided rockets are interchangeable with missiles (future "plug-and-play"), that implies they're the same size as missiles of the same class...but if they don't devote any internal space to a guidance system, then why isn't the internal space used for a larger thruster/motor (faster flight speed and/or range), a larger warhead (extra damage), or both?

There are currently modular guidance kits that can be attached to rockets of various sizes that allow them to be guided like a missile yet fired from the exact same laucnh interface without significant change to their payload, speed or range (other than the direct benefits of increased accuracy).

Thus it's possible that in Rifts the difference between guided and unguided is generally an add on package rather than a structural one.

There might be more structural issues for the internal-type launchers, though. It looks like the AGR-20 Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Precision_Kill_Weapon_System) is a bolt-on laser guidance system for Hydra 70 rockets, but it looks like they can't use them from a standard LAU-68 pod (the LAU-68 F/A apparently being lengthened to accommodate the APKWS seeker). Exposed missiles would be fine with a "bolt-on" guidance package, but I'm not so sure about an internal launcher with a "flip-top head".

[Shark_Force]

I figured it was more like unguided missiles aren't 100% unguided, it's just that designing and manufacturing an actual decent quality guided missile is really hard in rifts for whatever reason.

so it isn't really guided vs unguided, it's more like "has a very basic guidance system" vs "has a guidance system powered by SCIENCE!!!"

[green.nova343]

I figured it was more like unguided missiles aren't 100% unguided, it's just that designing and manufacturing an actual decent quality guided missile is really hard in rifts for whatever reason.

so it isn't really guided vs unguided, it's more like "has a very basic guidance system" vs "has a guidance system powered by SCIENCE!!!"

LOL, I can hear Mei saying she'll "science the heck out of this!" in my head.

If we really wanted to get all realistic & science-like with missile guidance systems, we'd go down the rabbit hole & through the weeds with even the lower-tech items out there: wire-guided MLOS/SACLOS (MLOS where you watch the missile in your viewfinder & manually steer it to the target, SACLOS you just keep the target in the crosshairs & the missile tries to steer itself there), IR homing (& all the issues that 1st-gen & even 2nd-gen systems had), Imaging IR, beam-riding, semi-active & active radar homing, "anti-radiation" & "home-on-jam", "command" where you steer it via joystick, & then go from there into the more futuristic sci-fi types (quantum resonators, subspace transponders, hyperspectral sensors, gravitonic detectors, etc.). But I think Mad Dog covered most of those back in the day...

[ShadowLogan]

In terms of actual use in the rules, Rifts is heavily slanted toward use of mini-missiles in terms of sheer number of launchers as compared to other types of missiles* (and LRMs tend to be smart IIRC, and SRM type is pretty rare compared to MRMs). So its impact in Rifts is more limited in actual practice I think (and in actual practice for some missile ranges you almost have to have a guidance system to be able to hit anything anyway right).

If we go by proper terminology (as green.nova343 said), then Palladium missiles all have guidance systems or else the text in each book has to be changed to rockets. I think the simplest way to look at it is that missiles no longer have their flat +3 strike (+5 smart) bonuses they did in RMB days for their guidance system and Palladium just worded it poorly (I mean mechanically there is no difference between a +0 to strike and being unguided AFAIK).

*

Spoiler:

Just in my incomplete collection (missing over 20 books IINM) for Rifts/PW mecha (bots, PA, standardized borg frames, drones, assorted vehicle types), there are these number of launch systems not a count of mecha (which can have multiple options):
Assorted specialty types (TW, Micro, etc mostly some I do not have an easy classification on at the moment): 70
Cruise Missile: 26
Torpedo: 66 (+1 for Mini Torpedo)
Tropedo/Missile Option: 10
LRM Missile: 49
MRM Missile: 98
SRM Missile: 33
Mini Missile: 350 (+27 in Man-Portal Systems, and I'm not counting Bionic components though IINM I am counting frames)

[Blue_Lion]

On dodging mini-missiles unguided. The MM16 on page 147 of black market indicates volleys of four or more mini-missiles can not be dodged. So there is support for 4 or more missiles being able to dodge even if they are unguided.

[Killer Cyborg]

On dodging mini-missiles unguided. The MM16 on page 147 of black market indicates volleys of four or more mini-missiles can not be dodged. So there is support for 4 or more missiles being able to dodge even if they are unguided.

What's the exact quote?

[Blue_Lion]

On dodging mini-missiles unguided. The MM16 on page 147 of black market indicates volleys of four or more mini-missiles can not be dodged. So there is support for 4 or more missiles being able to dodge even if they are unguided.

What's the exact quote?

It is in the flavor text. I used the word indicate because it is not written in absolute wording. -Including the lead up text for a point of refence.

Beyond the obvious hazard of the mini-missile being shot down before it can strike its target, it has become clear that if a target is assaulted by one, two or even three mini-missiles, there is a chance that it can simply avoid or dodge the incoming warheads! While this may sound unbelievable, it’s true. Bandito Arms has recovered pilot video after pilot video clearly showing the target simply sidestepping an incoming missile and letting it go sailing harmlessly past him. This has been witnessed being done by Juicers, Crazies and Cyber-Knights, as well as power armor, aircraft, dragons and monsters. But if the volley is comprised of four or more of mini-missiles, it appears the target is unable to avoid the volley.

[Killer Cyborg]

On dodging mini-missiles unguided. The MM16 on page 147 of black market indicates volleys of four or more mini-missiles can not be dodged. So there is support for 4 or more missiles being able to dodge even if they are unguided.

What's the exact quote?

It is in the flavor text. I used the word indicate because it is not written in absolute wording. -Including the lead up text for a point of refence.

Beyond the obvious hazard of the mini-missile being shot down before it can strike its target, it has become clear that if a target is assaulted by one, two or even three mini-missiles, there is a chance that it can simply avoid or dodge the incoming warheads! While this may sound unbelievable, it’s true. Bandito Arms has recovered pilot video after pilot video clearly showing the target simply sidestepping an incoming missile and letting it go sailing harmlessly past him. This has been witnessed being done by Juicers, Crazies and Cyber-Knights, as well as power armor, aircraft, dragons and monsters. But if the volley is comprised of four or more of mini-missiles, it appears the target is unable to avoid the volley.

I agree that this passage does indicate the the rule applies to mini-missiles.
I'd personally take that as meaning that the writer didn't understand the RUE rules, and Palladium's editors didn't catch the discrepancy.

But I expect other people would take it as an update, and there'd be a technical argument for that take.

[Axelmania]

I'd personally take that as meaning that the writer didn't understand the RUE rules, and Palladium's editors didn't catch the discrepancy.

more like RUE trend/tweak on % that's guided/unguided

[Zer0 Kay]

Well since there are also rockets in various places in Palladium I've always thought the difference between guided and unguided missiles was what guides the missile. A PB guided missile guides itself an unguided PB missile is guided by the shooter. Guided missiles have their strike bonus and the weapon system strike bonus. unguided missiles like the mini missiles in RT had guidance built into the cyclone and rode a laser beam. So if it is unguided any special shooty bonuses apply if it is guided it is all up to the weapon.

So Guided Missiles would be self guided (IR, active or passive radar or electro-optical) like:
AIM-9 Sidewinder (varies by model, IR, radar)
AIM-120 AMRAAM (inertial navigation into fly by radio into active radar)
AGM-114L Hellfire (active radar)
AIM-54 Phoenix (active radar)
AGM-88 HARM (passive radar)
AGM-65A/B Maverick (electro-optical)


Non-Guided missiles would be beam riding (semi-active radar or laser) or wire guided,
BGM-71 TOW (Wire)
AIM-9C (Radar)
AGM-114 (laser)

[ShadowLogan]

Well since there are also rockets in various places in Palladium I've always thought the difference between guided and unguided missiles was what guides the missile. A PB guided missile guides itself an unguided PB missile is guided by the shooter. Guided missiles have their strike bonus and the weapon system strike bonus. unguided missiles like the mini missiles in RT had guidance built into the cyclone and rode a laser beam. So if it is unguided any special shooty bonuses apply if it is guided it is all up to the weapon.

I think if we want to get super technical on details in the text, when PB uses the term "guided" missile, they really mean "self-guided" based on the text in RUE, RMB, RT1E, etc as those are presented as a "fire and forget" type approach where Mini-Missiles (and other unguided) are directed to their target ("beam riders") by the shooter. This can be somewhat confirmed in the WB14 New West "Wild Wesel SAMAS" (pg186) missile jamming capability that is specifically said to apply to mini-missiles (oddly enough the Shemarrian version in Shem.Nation pg49 can't jam mini-missiles)

...Note that this jamming ability applies to "smart bombs" as well as mini-missiles and other types of guided missiles."

[Killer Cyborg]

Well since there are also rockets in various places in Palladium I've always thought the difference between guided and unguided missiles was what guides the missile. A PB guided missile guides itself an unguided PB missile is guided by the shooter. Guided missiles have their strike bonus and the weapon system strike bonus. unguided missiles like the mini missiles in RT had guidance built into the cyclone and rode a laser beam. So if it is unguided any special shooty bonuses apply if it is guided it is all up to the weapon.

I think if we want to get super technical on details in the text, when PB uses the term "guided" missile, they really mean "self-guided" based on the text in RUE, RMB, RT1E, etc as those are presented as a "fire and forget" type approach where Mini-Missiles (and other unguided) are directed to their target ("beam riders") by the shooter. This can be somewhat confirmed in the WB14 New West "Wild Wesel SAMAS" (pg186) missile jamming capability that is specifically said to apply to mini-missiles (oddly enough the Shemarrian version in Shem.Nation pg49 can't jam mini-missiles)

...Note that this jamming ability applies to "smart bombs" as well as mini-missiles and other types of guided missiles."

IIRC, mini-missiles have been repeatedly described as unguided.

[ShadowLogan]

@KillerCyborg
Yes Mini-Missiles are repeatedly described as unguided I do not dispute that, but here we have an instances of them being lumped in with a system that jams missile guidance systems, something it should not be effected by as it doesn't supposedly have a guidance system to jam. The question is then how could a missile jamming system work on supposedly unguided mini-missiles and really what does Palladium mean by guided.

The first question is obviously more to that specific instance. It might even be explainable (in real world terms) that doesn't break the setting (or mechanics) per say and only really to that one instance. (Off hand this is the only instance I know of outside of Macross 2 with its guided mini-missiles).

A related question that is more expansive that is worth exploring might be just what Palladium considers a guided missile. It is entirely possible that Palladium's "guided" missiles is in fact a game term that is used synonymously with "self-guided", and that mini-missiles (and other unguided missiles by default) still have a guidance system but it is one that it is driven by the shooter-platform. That is what the RUE-era Missile rules imply when they discuss the guided variety, they really mean the "self-guided" variety as opposed to the shooter variety.

[camk4evr]

But yes. I prefer Mekton's method of missiles and dodging and/or shooting them down
I have alternately attempted to add in a rule that a pilot, on a successful dodge roll, dodges 1 missile per level and may then attempt to shoot the remainder if he has actions.

Mekton's method (IIRC) is attackers skill, attackers attribute, attackers roll, weapons bonus vs. defenders skill, defenders roll, defenders vehicle bonus. What ever the max difference is divide the volley up by that number and for each point the defender gets over the attackers roll he dodges that many missiles.

Since RT or Rifts can't do that I simply divide the volley by 10 and for each point the defender wins by they dodge that many missiles.

Actually, you kind of have it backwards there. The rule is that for every point that the attacker gets over the defender's (based on Stat+Skill+dice roll +/-modifiers VS. Stat+Skill+dice roll +/-modifiers) 1 Missile hits, up to the size of the volley. For example, if the attacker fires five missiles and rolls a total 23 while the defender rolls total of 20 then three missiles hit (assuming no anti-missile systems, which give the defender and extra "Roll" to rerduce the total number of missile hits).