supernatural or not?

[FelixCaleb]

So I was flipping around in DB2 and noticed on 74:
*in the left column the PS has "(supernatural)" after it
*further down, "Natural abilities: Supernatural strength and endurance" affirming the former and adding something.

The right column refers to Royal Kreeghor as:
*a sub-species of the kreeghor race
*a sub-race of supernatural monsters

It seems like the kreeghor overall, rather than merely the royal kreeghor, are being called "supernatural monsters"

Page 99 though, on Cosmo-Knights:
*"kreeghor, wolfen, and noro have all been chosen"
*"only exceptions are supernatural creatures like dragons, demons and the promethean race"

Would this mean supernatural monsters like the kreeghor are unlike dragons/demons/prometheans, not so much because they are not supernatural, but because they lack natural abilities like teleportation which all 3 of those supernatural creatures have?

In that respect, sub-demons like Gurgoyles would also be unlike dragons/demons/prometheans since they also can't teleport inherently, but are still supernatural monsters.

[The Beast]

Regular Kreekhor aren't supernatural. The royal ones are.

[eliakon]

As per the Rifts Bestiary it is possible to have SN strength and not be a supernatural being.

[SpiritInterface]

As per the Rifts Bestiary it is possible to have SN strength and not be a supernatural being.

But having both does?

[Axelmania]

I don't know if we have any examples of supernatural endurance that are non-supernatural, although Machine People might come pretty close.

[drewkitty ~..~]

According to the Definition of what is a SN creature, in relation to SNPS in RUE, They are beings that define the laws of physics and draw upon arcane forces and energies (like magic) as a part of their innate essence.

Further more, this is confermed in the VKr book where it says that those with real SNPS have something more than what the mundane can provide. And because of that can harm vampires, which is immune to mundane damage. The VKr goes further in saying that the (mundane) products of science cannot effect vampires.

In reference to the OP, and what The Beast Brought up, the nonSN kreeghor would not be able to hurt vampires without heir bare handed strikes, the Royal kreeghor would be able to hurt vampires with their bare handed strikes.

This is like the different between the Titan Juicier (it says it is a regular juicer who's raw strength was augmented with only mundane science to be equivalent to that of dragons strength in the class text and uses a short cut in class stats by using the 'SNPS' label to define the damage and lift/carry/throw stats) and the Mega-Juicier (which is explicitly said to be a augmentation done with magic) with true SNPS.
Remember that there was a change in the Lexicon between the time these two classes were written and the time the RGMG was written and between when the RGMG was written and now.

-------
Rifts Beastiary....don't have it. But what was mentioned sounds like just another type of power creep justification after the fact to "patch" an inconsistent in the writings of books that really should be updated to fix what is wrong or is only wrong because of the definitions in the Lexicon changing.

I would put these mundane beasties with SNPS in the Titan Juicer camp with the same raw strength as those with true SNPS but are unable to damage those SN beings that are immune to mundane damage. (why?: Because they are not SNBeings nor have been augmented mystically.)

[Blue_Lion]

I don't know if we have any examples of supernatural endurance that are non-supernatural, although Machine People might come pretty close.

some OCC in spirit west has SN endurance. But SN endurance is quite rare to pop up.
totem warrior page 42
spirit warrior page 44
They are humans that make packs with spirits and are never called SN. So you could be non SN and have SN endurance.

[Axelmania]

I don't know if we have any examples of supernatural endurance that are non-supernatural, although Machine People might come pretty close.

some OCC in spirit west has SN endurance. But SN endurance is quite rare to pop up.
totem warrior page 42
spirit warrior page 44
They are humans that make packs with spirits and are never called SN. So you could be non SN and have SN endurance.

Nice, and I thought I had paid attention to that book! Will try to remember for later.

The VKr goes further in saying that the (mundane) products of science cannot effect vampires.

This seems strange to me, because even carpentry could be viewed as a science and wooden baseball bats hurt them. Plus then we have the railguns firing silver rounds or wood flechettes...

In reference to the OP, and what The Beast Brought up,
the nonSN kreeghor would not be able to hurt vampires without heir bare handed strikes,
the Royal kreeghor would be able to hurt vampires with their bare handed strikes.

Part of the strangeness here is AFAIK the original VK came out before SNPS was introduced in CB1?

Closest we had was pg 37's "Dragons are supernatural beings and creatures of magic, consequently, they can inflict damage to vampires" initially saying "a punch" but also giving damage for claw/kick/bite/breath

Plus it wasn't their usual 2D6 MD from the main book, because you could add PS damage bonuses to this.

The next approach we got to them in Palladium might've been the Nightbane main book where pg 186 had "The attacks of supernatural beings like Nightbane and Guardians will do direct and full damage to the vampire's hit points." which might be read as either broadly "all supernatural beings, including Nightbane and Guardians" or perhaps narrowly "a subset of supernatural beings with unspecified properties shared by Guardians and Nightbane"

If it was the subset approach, then maybe Guardians/Nightbane are (like dragons) creatures of magic in addition to being supernatural beings? COM isn't a term I recall being used in NB like in Rifts/PF so it's lack of use might not be that conspicuous...

Of course then later I think they retconned dragons as being just-COM and non-SB (not sure specifically when) which throws out that whole "just be both" theory for harming vampires.

VK revised pg 21's section on Limited Invulnerability is written like a blog from Doc Reid so it's not clear to me how much of that is canon meant to be from Siembieda vs heresay by the cyberdoc...

Reid's pg 21 only seems to mention these:

weapons made of wood,
weapons made of or coated with silver,
moving water,
holy water,
magic
and sunlight

the closest I can see to a supernatural punch here is for magic weapons...

Magic and magic weapons always inflict Hit Point damage rather than Mega-Damage when used against vampires.
M.D. is converted point for point to Hit Points

It's not until pg 76 we get some elaboration (under "Magic Weapons")

Creatures of magic that also possess Supernatural Strength inflict their full M.D. as Hit Point damage to vampires in physical combat.
..
It is the same for true supernatural beings.

The emphasis on "true" throws me off though: are there some "faux supernatural beings" out there?

It also seems to imply that if you have SNPS you might qualify as a supernatural being, weirdly:

Augmented and Robotic P.S . does no damage to vampires even if the ' Borg or 'Bot is capable of inflicting Mega-Damage.
Supernatural P.S. is on an entirely different. metaphysical level

If the higher damage from SNPS is due to metaphysics and we want metaphysical consistency (hurting vamps) then the simplist solution might just be to reduce the PS of things you don't want hurting vampires (such as Kreeghor and Titan Juicers?) to "Robotic" levels?

Generic Robot PS tables existed since CB1 though so I don't know why DB2 and WB11 wouldn't have done that from the get-go. Did CJ maybe forget they existed?

A key thing worth observing here is how VKRp77's left column notes that those under the effect of the "Supernatural PS spell" (isn't it actually called Superhuman PS?) can explicitly harm vampires, even though there is no mention of that spell temporarily turning you into a "true supernatural being" or "creature of magic".

This is like the different between the Titan Juicier (it says it is a regular juicer who's raw strength was augmented with only mundane science to be equivalent to that of dragons strength in the class text and uses a short cut in class stats by using the 'SNPS' label to define the damage and lift/carry/throw stats)

You can use mundane science to augment people to levels which are pretty explicitly supernatural though, like the Mega-Heroes in Heroes Unlimited for example. There's no assumption made that it necessarily had to be a magic experiment that transformed them, could've been chemistry.

and the Mega-Juicier (which is explicitly said to be a augmentation done with magic) with true SNPS.

I don't recall it being magic explicitly, wasn't it more like harnessing psychic abilities?

Mind Bolts and Psi-Swords hurt vampires too, so maybe "supernatural" is a wider umbrella than just magical-essence.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Carpenters & Rail-guns: nice try at twisting things out of meaning. *yawns* It is the wood that damages the vampires, not the person who shapes the wood, nor the ranged weapon that uses the wood as ammunition.
So the question comes up "why are you talking like an anti-vaxxer when the canon text is clear in what it says about how tech effects vampires?"

From your arguments you posted you just want to argue with someone again. Why not just agree with people when they are right, instead of making a false controversy so you can have an argument? This creating an argument and prolonging an argument just to get more posts is just getting boring. *yawn*

[ITWastrel]

Again, Kitty has taken the VKr text, (which blends back and forth between obviously contradictory color text in the form of Doc Reid's narration and the game rule text) and inferred some form of second class supernatural PS.

I believe what the problem here is, aside from a truly confusing rule book, is the distinction between a Creature of Magic and an ordinary supernatural creature, or even mundane being with SNPS from a mundane source, such as juicer or super powers mutant.

Just because a creature is supernatural, ie is somehow more than mortal, they are not necessarily a creature of magic.

A creature of magic, while supernatural by definition, do not automatically have supernatural strength. If faeries could penetrate ballistic armor and one-shot-kill any human, **** would get REAL up in the forest, and quick, first time a human started cutting down trees.

Creatures of magic are special critters, who are not just more than mortal, but different on a fundamental level. They are often immune to even MD attack, or have unnatural biologies. Dragons, who live on magic and spring fully aware from eggs, demons spawned from hate and tortured souls, and faeries born from dewdrops are all much different than your average supernatural schlub, and it is that difference that allows Creatures of Magic who ALSO have SNPS to inflict their MD attacks as HP to vampires.

While the text of VKr then contradicts itself later, if I recall correctly, and says any schmuck with SNPS hurts vampires, I always rule that if you are not on the list of creatures of magic, your pathetic SNPS won't scratch a vampire. Mega-Juicer, superhuman, giant mutant bear, most monsters and D-bee races, none of these harm a vampire in my games. Get some of that tech that the book says doesn't work, and use that to kill some vampires.

VKr... It has good parts, but people have to realize, you can use it like the bible. Find the rule you like and choose not to read the contradictory text ten pages later. It doesn't make sense otherwise. Still, I love the art, that book is just cool.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Again, Kitty has taken the VKr text, (which blends back and forth between obviously contradictory color text in the form of Doc Reid's narration and the game rule text) and inferred some form of second class supernatural PS.

Side-Note: PB didn't have the ATB2 terminology when the JU game book was written. But since then we do have the ATB terms in the lexicon it can be properly said that the str. of a TJ is better be called "crushing" PS because it is mundane.

No, the SNPS equivalent was 1st published with the JU world book. (What we now know as Crushing Str.) And I, as someone who read the class descriptive text understood what it meant even before we had the words to define what was being said, when the JU world-book was 1st published.
The idea that I did it later is a fabrication of ITW's imagination.

If you had actually grok'ed what I posted earlier you would of know this. But since you didn't pay attention to the details of what I wrote when you read my post, you sadly didn't grok what I had written. Since you didn't actually understand what I wrote, your response to them is clearly off the mark, and should be retracted. Or they were a calculated slur if you did understand what I wrote. But better to assume ignorance rather than malice.


As to the text from Dr. Reid's list of what hurts vamps (and other creatures that are immune to mundane damage) is just a list of what is already know to hurt vampires. Which are listed in the stats of 'traditional vampires' in one PB gamebook or another.

The VKr book DOES LIST, adds (not a contradiction, 'adds') that true SNPS does hurt vamps, were-people, etc. It's in the section where the VKr book talks about SNPS. And how true SNPS has something more than just raw strength that lets them hurt those that are immune to mundane damage. Then shortly after that section is the section that talks about how mundane weapons done hurt vamps.

The mystical Mega Juicer with true SNPS doesn't hurt vamps....and you bad mount me when I point out the mundane Titian Juicer can't hurt vamps because they are just mundane juicers writ strong as dragons. How can you stand to contradict yourself?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Side-Note: PB didn't have the ATB2 terminology when the JU game book was written. But since then we do have the ATB terms in the lexicon it can be properly said that the str. of a TJ is better be called "crushing" PS because it is mundane.

As to 'Why the Crushing Str.'s damage listing has ("supernatural") in the text...?'

It is so newb players from rifts would have an idea of how strong this type of PS is, without having to need to actually read the text as a whole.

Yes, the PB games books are written to a tween/teen reading levels so sometimes they incorporate words that stand for ideas that quickly give the reader what level of power they mean, when reading the text as a whole would give them a more accurate understanding of what was meant.

If you need it to spell it out in simpler terms, I can't do it here.

[ITWastrel]

Kitty, I am flatly stating your entire idea of a second class SNPS is unsupported by text, and your assertions that it's plainly written between the lines [because the color text suggests it and there weren't rules to say that when the book was published, but now there are, (so there!)] is... Absolutely a product of Your imagination.

In regards to Vampire invulnerability, I run ALL SNPS as second class, if I can describe it as such. Just because you have SNPS, in MY games you do NOT automatically do damage to Vampires UNLESS you are ALSO a creature of magic.
I DISAGREE with the game text differences between VK and VKr, and have rendered that entire book as "apocryphal" and non-binding in MY game. As I have said, VKr is a Very Poorly Written book, and I prefer the original.

I've emphasized the word MY in those sentences specifically for you, Kitty.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Kitty, I am flatly stating your entire idea of a second class SNPS is unsupported by text, and your assertions that it's plainly written between the lines [because the color text suggests it and there weren't rules to say that when the book was published, but now there are, (so there!)] is... Absolutely a product of Your imagination.
...snip

No. I am saying what when the canon text is taken 'As A Whole' says in that the PS of TJ's is mundane. Which means they don't have true SNPS, (and only have crushing PS.) That you are using your house rules to omit said canon text is your prerogative Only For Your Own House Rules. But not okay when talking about what is and isn't the canon rules.

A will admit that TJ doesn't explicitly say that their PS is mundane. However, it is said that the process for empowering a TJ only uses mundane medical treatments on the character. Which make the class follow the rules for Products of Science set forth in the VKr world-book.
In that, I am only pointing out what as a whole the words of the canon text for the TJ class says and pointing out that the current canon rules agree with me.

So, you disagree with what is in the canon text. Fine. There is nothing more to say.

[Crimson Dynamo]

*a sub-race of supernatural monsters

It seems like the kreeghor overall, rather than merely the royal kreeghor, are being called "supernatural monsters"

I believe you've simply misread that line. It's meant to be that they are a subrace, and they are supernatural monsters. Sort of like how "humans are a subrace of technologically-advanced primates" doesn't mean all primates are technologically-advanced.

The misreading is understandable though.