R:UE nerfs and buffs

[Rifter11]

I would have imagined this would have been addressed by now but I couldn't find it if it was.

I was looking at the Borg class in R:UE and noticed they nerfed Borg armor. It made me wonder what other nerfs/buffs I have missed in there. So what was the biggest buff/nerf in R:UE that you like/dislike the most?

[Curbludgeon]

Cyborg is arguably less a nerf than a distribution of some of the Main Body MDC to other locations.

One thing I would like to have been addressed is inserting a sentence retroactively changing some PPE totals of magic classes relative to the increase of those in RUE. As a house rule I change most 2d4x10 classes to 3d4x10, to keep it abreast of the Technowizard. This wouldn't apply to those classes which use PPE reduction abilities to account for a specialty, such as in the shadow mage class in DB15. While the Mystic didn't really get much in the RMB-RUE transition, I think that speaks more to the class as a whole needing a bit of a boost; the Mystic is to a certain extent the magical equivalent of the Saloon Bum.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyborg is arguably less a nerf than a distribution of some of the Main Body MDC to other locations.

Considering how all or most other armors were adapted to the MDC-by-location method, though, it's a nerf.
Original Heavy Deadboy armor had 80 MDC per main body, for example. When they added MDC per location, they didn't divvy the 80 MDC up between different body parts; they decided that the Main Body still had 80 MDC, then added 50 more for the helmet, 35 per arm, 50 per leg, so the new total MDC was 300 MDC instead of 80.
Same deal with other armors; that was their standard.
So doing the Cyborg armor differently is definitely a nerf.


Anyway, other nerfs I dislike:
1. When the Two Attacks For Living were added, it effectively nerfed:
-Juicers, who went from being 2x faster than the normal character, to being 1.5x faster. Similar deal with Crazies, Psi-Stalkers, and any other class/race that got a bonus of +1 or +2 attacks per melee.
-Power Armor/Robot Pilots, who went from being 2x faster than the normal character to being 1.5 faster.
-Animals, who went from having about the same number of attacks per melee as an untrained or low-level human character, to being 2 attacks behind the game.
-Golems, zombies, and other magical constructs/critters who have a flat number of attacks per melee that used to make them slightly slower than the average 1st level human, to being 3+ attacks behind the game.
-Vampires, who used to be 2-2.5x faster than average trained humans, but then were only on par with average trained humans.
-Mages, who used to be able to cast 2 spells per melee vs a CS Grunt's (for example) 2 attacks per melee, making things kind of even (as long as the Grunt didn't Burst fire) firepower-wise at low levels, but then suddenly somebody with a gun was 2x faster with the gun than the mage was with his/her/its spells.
-Archers, whose ROF with a bow used to be pretty comparable speed-wise compared to a guy using a gun or his fists, but then the archers ended up behind the game.

2. The elimination of the burst/spray rules.

3. Mages, who went from being able to wear any kind of armor and still cast spells, to being only able to wear certain kinds of armor, or face tedious table-rolled penalties that ultimately don't make much difference other than making the play roll a bunch of extra dice.

And some buffs I don't like:
a) Dinosaurs went from being slightly overpowered (1d4x10 MDC for a T-Rex, which realistically probably would actually be an SDC creature) to haveing 10x or more MDC.
b) Cyber-Knights, who went from being well-trained humans with some psionics and cybernetics, to being superhumans with weird powers that aren't magic, psychic, or technologically based, but rather simply exist because of "Zen."
The original CKs were awesome; the new ones are cheesy.
c) Melee weapons + supernatural PS. Whether you're in the (correct) school of thought that this applies only to certain weapons (xiticix weapons, mutant bone weapons, gargoyle weapons, etc.) that specify this is how they work, OR whether you hold the view that all MD melee weapons are supposed to add supernatural punch damage, it's lame either way because it's not how SDC melee weapons work (i.e., if you have a 1d4 punch, and you pick up a 1d6 dagger, you don't inflict 1d4+1d6 SDC), and it makes melee the king of the battlefield in many ways, and made Supernatural PS drastically more powerful than Robotic or Bionic PS.

[Fenris2020]

Cyborg is arguably less a nerf than a distribution of some of the Main Body MDC to other locations.

Considering how all or most other armors were adapted to the MDC-by-location method, though, it's a nerf.
Original Heavy Deadboy armor had 80 MDC per main body, for example. When they added MDC per location, they didn't divvy the 80 MDC up between different body parts; they decided that the Main Body still had 80 MDC, then added 50 more for the helmet, 35 per arm, 50 per leg, so the new total MDC was 300 MDC instead of 80.
Same deal with other armors; that was their standard.
So doing the Cyborg armor differently is definitely a nerf.


Anyway, other nerfs I dislike:
1. When the Two Attacks For Living were added, it effectively nerfed:
-Juicers, who went from being 2x faster than the normal character, to being 1.5x faster. Similar deal with Crazies, Psi-Stalkers, and any other class/race that got a bonus of +1 or +2 attacks per melee.
-Power Armor/Robot Pilots, who went from being 2x faster than the normal character to being 1.5 faster.
-Animals, who went from having about the same number of attacks per melee as an untrained or low-level human character, to being 2 attacks behind the game.
-Golems, zombies, and other magical constructs/critters who have a flat number of attacks per melee that used to make them slightly slower than the average 1st level human, to being 3+ attacks behind the game.
-Vampires, who used to be 2-2.5x faster than average trained humans, but then were only on par with average trained humans.
-Mages, who used to be able to cast 2 spells per melee vs a CS Grunt's (for example) 2 attacks per melee, making things kind of even (as long as the Grunt didn't Burst fire) firepower-wise at low levels, but then suddenly somebody with a gun was 2x faster with the gun than the mage was with his/her/its spells.
-Archers, whose ROF with a bow used to be pretty comparable speed-wise compared to a guy using a gun or his fists, but then the archers ended up behind the game.

2. The elimination of the burst/spray rules.

3. Mages, who went from being able to wear any kind of armor and still cast spells, to being only able to wear certain kinds of armor, or face tedious table-rolled penalties that ultimately don't make much difference other than making the play roll a bunch of extra dice.

And some buffs I don't like:
a) Dinosaurs went from being slightly overpowered (1d4x10 MDC for a T-Rex, which realistically probably would actually be an SDC creature) to haveing 10x or more MDC.
b) Cyber-Knights, who went from being well-trained humans with some psionics and cybernetics, to being superhumans with weird powers that aren't magic, psychic, or technologically based, but rather simply exist because of "Zen."
The original CKs were awesome; the new ones are cheesy.
c) Melee weapons + supernatural PS. Whether you're in the (correct) school of thought that this applies only to certain weapons (xiticix weapons, mutant bone weapons, gargoyle weapons, etc.) that specify this is how they work, OR whether you hold the view that all MD melee weapons are supposed to add supernatural punch damage, it's lame either way because it's not how SDC melee weapons work (i.e., if you have a 1d4 punch, and you pick up a 1d6 dagger, you don't inflict 1d4+1d6 SDC), and it makes melee the king of the battlefield in many ways, and made Supernatural PS drastically more powerful than Robotic or Bionic PS.

I add the punch damage to Robotic strength as well with MD weapons; it evens it out. THAT is the correct school of thought (and is the older rule, which is why I use it). The either/ or thing makes absolutely no logical sense. It makes such super-powered beings a lot more dangerous, and gives them a reason to use melee weapons in the first place.
SDC weapons get the strength bonus instead. Bionic would add the MD from Power Punch, if applicable.

[Killer Cyborg]

I add the punch damage to Robotic strength as well with MD weapons; it evens it out. THAT is the correct school of thought (and is the older rule, which is why I use it). The either/ or thing makes absolutely no logical sense. It makes such super-powered beings a lot more dangerous, and gives them a reason to use melee weapons in the first place.
SDC weapons get the strength bonus instead. Bionic would add the MD from Power Punch, if applicable.

Whether or not giving super-powered beings a reason to use melee weapons is a good thing depends on whether you'd rather have your Rifts version of The Incredible Hulk smashing people with his fists, or always running around with a giant sword.
And, for that matter, dragons. I think there's something unsettling about dragons carrying melee weapons.
But it comes down to personal aesthetic.

For me, the main thing is consistency; if it's done on the MD level, it should be done on the SDC level. If it's done for Supernatural Creatures, it should be done for Bots/PA/Borgs.
(SB1 allowed robots to add the PS damage bonus to melee weapons, not the punch damage. That made robots VERY powerful, especially since there weren't any rules for Supernatural PS increasing MD melee damage. This technically remained the rule, IIRC, until CB1r nerfed it down to +1 MD per 10 PS points over 10, which went too far in the other direction.)

Just adding the Robotic PS punch damage to melee damage seems a lot more balanced than either of those rules, and is a house rule I've used before (although usually I just go with RAW that only certain weapons add supernatural punch damage). It works quite well.
This still leaves SDC melee, though. I'm not sure how well it would work out to add SDC punch damage to melee weapons, but I don't think it would do much harm, and it might even balance out the way a lot of things have too much HP/SDC.

[Warshield73]

I add the punch damage to Robotic strength as well with MD weapons; it evens it out. THAT is the correct school of thought (and is the older rule, which is why I use it). The either/ or thing makes absolutely no logical sense. It makes such super-powered beings a lot more dangerous, and gives them a reason to use melee weapons in the first place.
SDC weapons get the strength bonus instead. Bionic would add the MD from Power Punch, if applicable.

Whether or not giving super-powered beings a reason to use melee weapons is a good thing depends on whether you'd rather have your Rifts version of The Incredible Hulk smashing people with his fists, or always running around with a giant sword.
And, for that matter, dragons. I think there's something unsettling about dragons carrying melee weapons.
But it comes down to personal aesthetic.

For me, the main thing is consistency; if it's done on the MD level, it should be done on the SDC level. If it's done for Supernatural Creatures, it should be done for Bots/PA/Borgs.
(SB1 allowed robots to add the PS damage bonus to melee weapons, not the punch damage. That made robots VERY powerful, especially since there weren't any rules for Supernatural PS increasing MD melee damage. This technically remained the rule, IIRC, until CB1r nerfed it down to +1 MD per 10 PS points over 10, which went too far in the other direction.)

Just adding the Robotic PS punch damage to melee damage seems a lot more balanced than either of those rules, and is a house rule I've used before (although usually I just go with RAW that only certain weapons add supernatural punch damage). It works quite well.
This still leaves SDC melee, though. I'm not sure how well it would work out to add SDC punch damage to melee weapons, but I don't think it would do much harm, and it might even balance out the way a lot of things have too much HP/SDC.

Personally I love a dragon wielding a staff or a gargoyle wielding a mace (and I was on the receiving end of that last one). Scrapping with a MDC monster in a warehouse is tough, him using an axe to chop into your robot vehicle is more visceral.

[Shark_Force]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is also the new Modern weapons WP system that nerfs...aahhh makes more realistic... the ability of the character ability to hit anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

They didn't fall behind on ROF for low-level spells.

It's a partial fix that helped reduce the issue significantly, but a lot of staple combat spells like Call Lightning now take 2+ attacks to cast.
Call Lightning also got effectively nerfed by the new spells in FoM and other later books that have the damage up front, instead of the old-school "this spell only gets really good as you level up."
Same with Fire Ball.

Compare Fire Bolt (4th level) to Fire Ball (6th level), for example.
(Fire Bolt isn't new, but it illustrates the basic issue)

Fire Bolt:
1 attack to cast
4d6 MD
+4 strike
100'+5'/level range
7 PPE

Fire Ball:
2 attacks to cast
1d4 MD per level
90' range
10 PPE

Back in the day, Fire Ball could match the damage of Fire Bolt by level 6: 6d4 MD vs 4d6 MD.
But now a mage could get two Fire Bolts off for every 1 Fire Ball, so it'd be more like 12th level before the damage breaks even.
And even then, Fire Bolt has better range and a cheaper casting time, so you'd have to be higher than 12th before Fire Ball is the better spell.
And remember, nobody really gets to be 15th level in this game as a rule, much less beyond.

[Mlp7029]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

They didn't fall behind on ROF for low-level spells.

It's a partial fix that helped reduce the issue significantly, but a lot of staple combat spells like Call Lightning now take 2+ attacks to cast.
Call Lightning also got effectively nerfed by the new spells in FoM and other later books that have the damage up front, instead of the old-school "this spell only gets really good as you level up."
Same with Fire Ball.

Compare Fire Bolt (4th level) to Fire Ball (6th level), for example.
(Fire Bolt isn't new, but it illustrates the basic issue)

Fire Bolt:
1 attack to cast
4d6 MD
+4 strike
100'+5'/level range
7 PPE

Fire Ball:
2 attacks to cast
1d4 MD per level
90' range
10 PPE

Back in the day, Fire Ball could match the damage of Fire Bolt by level 6: 6d4 MD vs 4d6 MD.
But now a mage could get two Fire Bolts off for every 1 Fire Ball, so it'd be more like 12th level before the damage breaks even.
And even then, Fire Bolt has better range and a cheaper casting time, so you'd have to be higher than 12th before Fire Ball is the better spell.
And remember, nobody really gets to be 15th level in this game as a rule, much less beyond.

I can't remember where but I read somewhere Kevin allowed spells up to in the level to be cast in one action. My GM allows any spell 9th level or lower in 1 action, 10-12 in 2 actions and 13-15 in three. He also adjusted spell levels so all spells costing more than 50 PPE are greater than 9th while all spells costing <=50 PPE are 9th or less. He did this after I started playing a Temporal Wizard who used Talismans to cast almost every spell because a Talisman could be activated in a single action. We love this change and it has made mages a lot more competitive with guns.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It's like they should of kept the Fire bolt spell as an SD spell and just had Fire ball as the MD spell.

[Fenris2020]

It's like they should of kept the Fire bolt spell as an SD spell and just had Fire ball as the MD spell.

With its low damage, Fireball should be area of effect.

[PSI-Lence]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

but, now it forces spell casters to take a hand to hand skill (if they didn't start with one) to get a viable number of actions to make use of it, otherwise it's just 2 actions per melee, meaning 2 low level spells, which is where they started.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's like they should of kept the Fire bolt spell as an SD spell and just had Fire ball as the MD spell.

With its low damage, Fireball should be area of effect.

Significantly better range could help as well.

[Shark_Force]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

but, now it forces spell casters to take a hand to hand skill (if they didn't start with one) to get a viable number of actions to make use of it, otherwise it's just 2 actions per melee, meaning 2 low level spells, which is where they started.

if they want to cast spells in combat, yeah.

I'm not seeing that as a *huge* problem though. people who want to be effective in combat should choose* a skill that makes them effective in combat. sounds about right to me.

of course, from my perspective I don't see much point in worrying about whether fire ball out-performs fire bolt regardless (though after accounting for accuracy, I suspect the fire ball spell catches up a lot faster than 12th level). neither are particularly good options, even from the perspective of using magic to deal damage (which is generally not a very good idea regardless). you're going to be spending way too much PPE to do what a vagabond with a laser rifle could do at far superior range.



* and by choose, I mean choose but only if you aren't one of the magic classes that are given one whether they like it or not, of course.

[Emerald MoonSilver]

snip


Personally I love a dragon wielding a staff or a gargoyle wielding a mace (and I was on the receiving end of that last one). Scrapping with a MDC monster in a warehouse is tough, him using an axe to chop into your robot vehicle is more visceral.[/quote]


I now have visions of a dragon wearing a giant gi, wielding a giant quarter staff while using martial arts to beat the snot out of some evil creature, or maybe an adventuring party.... (Evil Grin).

[guardiandashi]

snip


Personally I love a dragon wielding a staff or a gargoyle wielding a mace (and I was on the receiving end of that last one). Scrapping with a MDC monster in a warehouse is tough, him using an axe to chop into your robot vehicle is more visceral.

I now have visions of a dragon wearing a giant gi, wielding a giant quarter staff while using martial arts to beat the snot out of some evil creature, or maybe an adventuring party.... (Evil Grin). [/quote]

the scary thing is in a campaign I played in, I was playing a character from another game (Battletech) where I had created a house (their version of countries) where my people were roughly human sized evolved dragons from D&D. my character who was rifted in to palladium/rifts was a Green Dragon, who happened to be one of their best R&D specialists, who had been working on an upgrade of one of their Mechs that made it able to "transform" from a mech, into a "grav tank" she was testing the prototype when she got rifted. So I had a R&D specialist and weapons engineer show up in rifts with an 85 ton Mecha that could shrug off low MDC attacks and it had its primary armament of 4 heavy particle cannons, a "man portable" Particle cannon (Rifle) that did ~4d6X10 mdc per shot (for the rifle) and ~4D6X100 MDC per shot for each of the 4 cannons on the Mecha, and oh wait she is a flipping green dragon from D&D when exposed to the high PPE environment from rifts she got the ability to grow in size to an adult Green dragon (IE ~50-100ft long)

[Hotrod]

City rats. Their write-up seems somewhat incomplete, with no special O.C.C. abilities and some other oddities. They're not exactly nerfed, but their lack of significant updates feels like one.

[Shark_Force]

just remembered one... mind melters used to recover ISP faster when meditating. in RUE, that was either deliberately removed or accidentally left out (it's hard to say which). personally, I give it back to them, but that's not in the books. on the plus side, I think the bit about psychics being able to draw a small amount (1d6?) ISP per round from a ley line when using powers (but not to recharge their personal reserve) is new.

also, it's hard to say whether this is a buff or a nerf, but the amount of PPE you can draw from ley lines is completely different. you can draw a lot more at non-peak periods, but you get a lot less during peak periods iirc.

I would consider the improvements to spells from casting on a ley line or nexus to have been nerfed as well.

[Warshield73]

snip


Personally I love a dragon wielding a staff or a gargoyle wielding a mace (and I was on the receiving end of that last one). Scrapping with a MDC monster in a warehouse is tough, him using an axe to chop into your robot vehicle is more visceral.

I now have visions of a dragon wearing a giant gi, wielding a giant quarter staff while using martial arts to beat the snot out of some evil creature, or maybe an adventuring party.... (Evil Grin).

Well the player in my original group who had the hatchling dragon named himself after one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles so I always had visions of 4 dragons in ninja outfits beating down CS squads.

City rats. Their write-up seems somewhat incomplete, with no special O.C.C. abilities and some other oddities. They're not exactly nerfed, but their lack of significant updates feels like one.

The power of the City Rat is really in it's skills, special abilities not really needed. The problem is that the City Rat only gets a few extra OCC skills (mostly useless like bicycle) so while most other OCCs got a little bump in power the City Rat really didn't. What city rats need is something like an MOS that has skills and bonuses so hacker has computer skills and an IQ bonus, thief as thieving skills and a PP bonus, etc., etc. just my opinion on it.

[narcissus]

How about the total lack of mention that Ley Lines and Nexus Points increase magic range/duration/damage. They still note it for Psychics under Mind Melter and Burster, but nothing at all for magic.

[narcissus]

In RMB under Mini-Missiles (p42) it notes:

A character can also add in any strike bonus from a high Physical Prowess (P.P.) attribute.

That sure didn't make it to RUE.

[Mack]

Here's a minor one...

In RMB, the cyborg forearm blaster could all fire aimed, burst, or wild. So the 6D6+6 MD particle beam could completely rip something apart. If a GM was to be strict, he could limit it to the 10 shots in an e-clip, but if it was hooked up to the 'borg's power supply....

(I can recall planning a scenario where the 'borg would put his barrel against the target and unload for 6D6+6 x10 MD, an average of 280 MD.)

[Kagashi]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

They didn't fall behind on ROF for low-level spells.

It's a partial fix that helped reduce the issue significantly, but a lot of staple combat spells like Call Lightning now take 2+ attacks to cast.
Call Lightning also got effectively nerfed by the new spells in FoM and other later books that have the damage up front, instead of the old-school "this spell only gets really good as you level up."
Same with Fire Ball.

Compare Fire Bolt (4th level) to Fire Ball (6th level), for example.
(Fire Bolt isn't new, but it illustrates the basic issue)

Fire Bolt:
1 attack to cast
4d6 MD
+4 strike
100'+5'/level range
7 PPE

Fire Ball:
2 attacks to cast
1d4 MD per level
90' range
10 PPE

Back in the day, Fire Ball could match the damage of Fire Bolt by level 6: 6d4 MD vs 4d6 MD.
But now a mage could get two Fire Bolts off for every 1 Fire Ball, so it'd be more like 12th level before the damage breaks even.
And even then, Fire Bolt has better range and a cheaper casting time, so you'd have to be higher than 12th before Fire Ball is the better spell.
And remember, nobody really gets to be 15th level in this game as a rule, much less beyond.

Yep, Fireball is basically pointless now.

[Fenris2020]

@killer cyborg: RUE also included the change for spellcasters to throw around 1 (low-level) spell per melee action, so they actually didn't fall behind on ROF.

They didn't fall behind on ROF for low-level spells.

It's a partial fix that helped reduce the issue significantly, but a lot of staple combat spells like Call Lightning now take 2+ attacks to cast.
Call Lightning also got effectively nerfed by the new spells in FoM and other later books that have the damage up front, instead of the old-school "this spell only gets really good as you level up."
Same with Fire Ball.

Compare Fire Bolt (4th level) to Fire Ball (6th level), for example.
(Fire Bolt isn't new, but it illustrates the basic issue)

Fire Bolt:
1 attack to cast
4d6 MD
+4 strike
100'+5'/level range
7 PPE

Fire Ball:
2 attacks to cast
1d4 MD per level
90' range
10 PPE

Back in the day, Fire Ball could match the damage of Fire Bolt by level 6: 6d4 MD vs 4d6 MD.
But now a mage could get two Fire Bolts off for every 1 Fire Ball, so it'd be more like 12th level before the damage breaks even.
And even then, Fire Bolt has better range and a cheaper casting time, so you'd have to be higher than 12th before Fire Ball is the better spell.
And remember, nobody really gets to be 15th level in this game as a rule, much less beyond.

Yep, Fireball is basically pointless now.

I house-rule it to have a 20' blast radius.

[Shark_Force]

I suppose I care a lot less about fire ball being mostly useless because I never considered it (or fire bolt, for that matter) to be terribly useful in the first place.

both of them are, as far as I'm concerned, last-ditch options to be used only in case of absolute desperation, since neither of them hold up terribly well when compared to a good quality laser rifle. both of them are far too expensive to handle the role of dealing damage, so which one is more bad is somewhat of a moot point; they're both far worse than throwing stones for that job anyways.

(as to call lightning, there is no save and no attack roll, which means that it at least has a niche use in my opinion... I wouldn't use it often, but if I'm ever facing, say, a juicer, I might consider it).

[Killer Cyborg]

I suppose I care a lot less about fire ball being mostly useless because I never considered it (or fire bolt, for that matter) to be terribly useful in the first place.

both of them are, as far as I'm concerned, last-ditch options to be used only in case of absolute desperation, since neither of them hold up terribly well when compared to a good quality laser rifle. both of them are far too expensive to handle the role of dealing damage, so which one is more bad is somewhat of a moot point; they're both far worse than throwing stones for that job anyways.

(as to call lightning, there is no save and no attack roll, which means that it at least has a niche use in my opinion... I wouldn't use it often, but if I'm ever facing, say, a juicer, I might consider it).

Throwing Stones and such are 2nd Generation spells designed to bypass the fact that mage casting time is slow, and that combat spells are expensive.
Meaning that it's a way to work around the rules without changing the rules.

Which isn't as good as just changing the rules in the first place.

But I'm with you; casting combat spells should be something of a last ditch for mages. Magic should be save for something special, not something as mundane as shooting enemies.
Gandalf used his sword and staff in combat far, far, far more than his spells.
Same with most old-school prototypical wizard-types.

The problem is that Palladium needs to **** or get off the pot when it comes to what they want mages to BE.
Originally, mages were thinkers who weren't designed all that much for direct combat. They had a small reserve of great and unique power, and they were meant to ration that, to think through their expenditures.
But as cultural views on mages changed in general, as more and more mages in various media were portrayed as essentially limitless fireball machines, more and more people grew tired of Palladium's magic system, so Palladium started trying to appease those players, but without officially abandoning their original view of mages.
So they contradict themselves.
Mages are still "thinking characters" who don't just "mindlessly blast away" at everything, but most of their spells are combat spells, and most of the newer combat spells are designed to make the older spells obsolete.
They're still sticking to their "it takes time to cast spells," but have compromised the idea (and a lot of spells) by just drawing a line and saying, "Okay, but spells below level 5 don't take time to cast."

Their vision of mages is muddled, and their magic system is muddled as a result.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's palladium's allergy to new editions I think.

I don't think most people really that upset that Mages are supposed to be faster, combat-speed casters now. I mean, as you said, it's what most customers expect.

Rifts mages were contemporary with AD&D.

The difference is there's been 3 new editions of D&D sinse then iterating on mages.

Palladium is trying to hotglue modern mage styles and crafting systems onto a modified AD&D ruleset and it ain't sticking togeather, conceptually, mechanically, or tonally. But they won't just make a new edition and say "Here's what we want mages/psychics to be, here's revised everything to make it work"

[MadGreenSon]

I've experimented with having mages be able to cast spells just as fast as pulling a trigger (ie, as many spells as melee attacks) and honestly, it's not as big a deal as you might think. What it does do is change the priorities of the player who's playing the mage. Because you burn through PPE fast that way.

Thus the player starts being even more concerned with where they are in relation to ley lines/nexus points, much more interested in any kind of PPE reservoirs they can lay their hands on, anything that might just straight up boost their own reserves of PPE, and investing in being able to make stuff like talismans and scrolls.

Strangely, the one seriously positive effect was that it definitely encouraged mage players to use lots of magic, even outside of combat.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If you have to stop and wave your hands at someone for a quarter of a minute to cast something, that's kind of akward to do in the middle of a conversation or other activity.

if you can do it in a few moments with a few quick gestures and words, suddenly working in magic to your daily routine doesn't bring the conversation to a dead stop.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've experimented with having mages be able to cast spells just as fast as pulling a trigger (ie, as many spells as melee attacks) and honestly, it's not as big a deal as you might think. What it does do is change the priorities of the player who's playing the mage. Because you burn through PPE fast that way.

Oh, definitely.
Because up until Palladium introduced (without putting directly into print) the Two Attacks For Living, mages DID cast spells just as fast as they could pull a trigger.
When Rifts came out, starting characters had 1 attack per melee if they had no HTH or if they had Assassin, 2 if they got a HTH other than Assassin, at least at first level.
A mage with a gun could generally fire it twice per round.
A mage casting spells could generally cast twice per round.
It worked just fine, because yeah, PPE was still limited.

The problem came in when Palladium introduced a new rule (TAFL) not only without telling anybody, but also without really thinking about the effect it would have on game play.
When that rule was introduced, suddenly mages became more or less half as effective as before, because suddenly the guy shooting at them could get 4 shots off for every 2 spells the mage cast.
That's when things started to go wrong for mages (and animals, and juicers, and Crazies, and psi-stalkers, vampires, and pretty much anybody else who didn't get their attacks boosted in proportion to the boost the average person got).

Not only that, but I don't know of anywhere in the RMB that says it takes half a melee to cast a spell.
What it says is stuff like (RMB 165) Two low level spells (levels one through six) can be cast per melee (15 seconds).
Which is NOT the same, because as phrased, it's simply a cap on how many spells you can cast during a round.
As in, there is nothing saying a mage with 4 attacks per melee can't cast a spell on his first attack, cast another spell on his second attack, then being out of spells for the melee draw his gun for his third attack, and fire it for his fourth attack.
And that's how my group played until it was clarified/changed/whatever in later books, nerfing mages even further.

But it didn't cause any problems playing the way we did, even though we were letting higher level spells be cast in one attack because the books never told us not to.

[MadGreenSon]

I've experimented with having mages be able to cast spells just as fast as pulling a trigger (ie, as many spells as melee attacks) and honestly, it's not as big a deal as you might think. What it does do is change the priorities of the player who's playing the mage. Because you burn through PPE fast that way.

Oh, definitely.
Because up until Palladium introduced (without putting directly into print) the Two Attacks For Living, mages DID cast spells just as fast as they could pull a trigger.
When Rifts came out, starting characters had 1 attack per melee if they had no HTH or if they had Assassin, 2 if they got a HTH other than Assassin, at least at first level.
A mage with a gun could generally fire it twice per round.
A mage casting spells could generally cast twice per round.
It worked just fine, because yeah, PPE was still limited.

The problem came in when Palladium introduced a new rule (TAFL) not only without telling anybody, but also without really thinking about the effect it would have on game play.
When that rule was introduced, suddenly mages became more or less half as effective as before, because suddenly the guy shooting at them could get 4 shots off for every 2 spells the mage cast.
That's when things started to go wrong for mages (and animals, and juicers, and Crazies, and psi-stalkers, vampires, and pretty much anybody else who didn't get their attacks boosted in proportion to the boost the average person got).

Not only that, but I don't know of anywhere in the RMB that says it takes half a melee to cast a spell.
What it says is stuff like (RMB 165) Two low level spells (levels one through six) can be cast per melee (15 seconds).
Which is NOT the same, because as phrased, it's simply a cap on how many spells you can cast during a round.
As in, there is nothing saying a mage with 4 attacks per melee can't cast a spell on his first attack, cast another spell on his second attack, then being out of spells for the melee draw his gun for his third attack, and fire it for his fourth attack.
And that's how my group played until it was clarified/changed/whatever in later books, nerfing mages even further.

But it didn't cause any problems playing the way we did, even though we were letting higher level spells be cast in one attack because the books never told us not to.

Yeah, it doesn't matter even with higher level spells because that's a self-limiting issue anyway because no matter how many attacks you have, there's only so much PPE to fuel spells with at any one time.

If you've reached the point where firing off half a dozen high level spells a round is actually possible for you to do, the odds are your game has reached a point where you need to be able to do that.

I've never run or played in a game where that was a thing, though firing a barrage of "blast" spells isn't too uncommon. No one fires off a bunch of Annihilate spells or things like that.

[BuzzardB]

How about the total lack of mention that Ley Lines and Nexus Points increase magic range/duration/damage. They still note it for Psychics under Mind Melter and Burster, but nothing at all for magic.

RUE 182 under Ley Lines & Nexus Points says spells are enhanced 50% when within 2 miles of a ley line or nexus. Only for range and duration though, no mention of damage.