Precision TK

[Veknironth]

Well, we know how devastaing Telekinesis can be as a weapon. What I'm wondering is how finely that power can be applied. I can act like a crane, picking up heavy objects. It can also act lik a hand, grabbing something like a sword and using it. But can it work like fingers? Can you pick up a pen and write with TK? Can you twist off a top, button a button, zip a zipper? Can you use it to grab ahold of a screw or bolt and twist/pull it free? Is there a coeffecient of friction for TK?

-Vek
"I'm sure I'm missing other uses."

[Library Ogre]

Well, we know how devastaing Telekinesis can be as a weapon. What I'm wondering is how finely that power can be applied. I can act like a crane, picking up heavy objects. It can also act lik a hand, grabbing something like a sword and using it. But can it work like fingers? Can you pick up a pen and write with TK? Can you twist off a top, button a button, zip a zipper? Can you use it to grab ahold of a screw or bolt and twist/pull it free? Is there a coeffecient of friction for TK?

-Vek
"I'm sure I'm missing other uses."

Rifter 44, "Telekinesis and Ectoplasm"

[kiralon]

I allow precision tk but the difficulty of what you are doing scales with the distance from whatever you are doing
Writing from 50ft away, sure you can but you get a negative because doing precision work needs precision sight, which you don't have at range.

[ShadowLogan]

TK examples in text allows one to turn a dial/knob and open doors, so I can see it twisting off a top (assuming it is designed to twist off). I can also see a zipper, but a button a button example might be to much (you move two objects) for TK. I can also see writing being possible(though legibility via this method is questionable, akin to writing with your off hand for most people now increase the difficulty factor).

In some cases I can also see it coming down to visible range. You might be able to TK a screw/bolt to twist it free (not pull it out, a nail maybe), the range is going to be up close (you have to be able to see it), but it might also come down to how tight the screw/bolt/nail is in the material (sometimes you can tighten/loosen a screw/bolt by hand but other times need a tool).

[Warshield73]

TK examples in text allows one to turn a dial/knob and open doors, so I can see it twisting off a top (assuming it is designed to twist off). I can also see a zipper, but a button a button example might be to much (you move two objects) for TK. I can also see writing being possible(though legibility via this method is questionable, akin to writing with your off hand for most people now increase the difficulty factor).

In some cases I can also see it coming down to visible range. You might be able to TK a screw/bolt to twist it free (not pull it out, a nail maybe), the range is going to be up close (you have to be able to see it), but it might also come down to how tight the screw/bolt/nail is in the material (sometimes you can tighten/loosen a screw/bolt by hand but other times need a tool).

I would largely agree with this, and I do allow fine work including activating controls, typing, and even getting a tool into hard to reach areas for repairs. I would just say on the screw and nail examples that if the problem is how tight it is that comes down to the amount of ISP you're willing to expend. Is it the equivalent force to rolling a baseball or is it the equivalent to moving a Honda.

[Veknironth]

Well, I admit I haven’t read Mark’s article yet so I might be asking a questions which has been answered. If I have, feel free to flame me, but please do so in a clever manner.

Does TK reach out from the psionicist in a straight line? Can it be interrupted by something like a forcefield? The psioncist would be able to see through the field to the object he or she wishes to manipulate, but would the mental energy be able to reach it? The same would work for a window.

What would happen if there were something semipermeable, like a bead curtain? Would that stop telekinesis or would the power make a little ripple in the beads as it pushes through?

Another consideration is using mirrors. Could someone manipulate an object behind them or around a corner that can be seen not with the naked eye, but still be seen? I think line of sight breaks that. Could you move something mentally that you cannot see but that you can touch? You wouldn’t be able to aim it or anything similar, but perhaps you could throw it away from you or at a sound.

-Vek
“Eventually, I will have run out of conundrums.”

[Library Ogre]

So, from the article:

Telekinesis works on sight; you see a person, and you can reach out and affect their aura, which is what TK moves around (this also gives a person subject to direct TK a saving throw, because otherwise it is ridiculously overpowered). It will work through force fields and beaded curtains. Lose sight for a melee, and you need to make a save v. psi to maintain contact. Note that stronger auras (like a person) will protect weaker auras (like a weapon or armor), so you can't get around it by saying "I'm lifting his armor, not him, so he doesn't get a save".

Mirrors work; you're grabbing their aura, not them. Touch can work, but, like you said, you can't do much with it once you lose contact. TK doesn't have a sense of touch or force feedback.

-Mark
"A real friend would have read the article by now."

[Veknironth]

Well, it turns out I have Rifter 44 in hard copy, which I purchased at the last Open House. So shame on me.

-Vek
"But, this proves that Mark and I are real friends!"

[Veknironth]

Well, this is sort of the opposite of precision TK, but it’s still a TK question. Could two or more psionicists use telekinesis on one object at the same time? There would be two versions of this. The easiest is people working in conjunction. They could reduce the amount ISP used by each person exerting force upon the object, or a team of psionicists could team up to lift and manipulate truly massive objects. They could also team up to increase the range at which they can manipulate the object, since they’d be moving less mass each.

The difficult one is if two psionicists are working against each other. How do you manage that? I feel like this must have been brought up before, but I didn’t see it in the mountain of telekinesis posts.

-Vek
“OK, admittedly I didn’t look THAT hard.”

[Library Ogre]

My solution would be "Who is putting the most force on the object" (not just ISPs, because regular TK is way weaker than Super TK)? If I am putting on X, and you are putting on X+1, then you win. That's simple.

If we're both exerting equal force, I can think of a few ways to do it. ME v ME, either straight comparison or roll-off, works. You might also go with whoever has initiative. Or we can allow people to ramp up their investment in that case, with each side committing a secret number of ISP to it, and whoever bids higher is the winner... but might wind up over-committing and wasting points ("I bet three, you bet thirty; you win, but I'm going to psi-bolt you in the nuts.")

[Veknironth]

Well, I'm pretty sure this question is not covered in Mark's Rifter article, but could you use TK against a rune item? Would the soul in the sword give it an aura, and thus a saving throw?

The second question I have is what happens when someone tries to wrest an object from another using TK. I assume there is a strength check of some sort, but is it simply rolling against your PS? Does the amount of ISP the psionicist uses increase their chance to pull the item out of the other person's grasp? Do they struggle over it like two people fighting over an object with both having control? Could the TK be used to simply prevent the person from using a weapon, even if they still have it in their grasp? I guess that would be like an entangle.

The opposite would also be in play, theoretically. Could you place something on top of a person's head, like a bucket, and keep pushing it down as they try to remove it? If you pick up a very heavy object and slam in onto a target, can you keep pushing the object down for crushing damage?

-Vek
"Never trust a Mind Mage."

[kiralon]

If someone is carrying something their aura protects it so it gets a save, and then if they fail it physical strength vs telepathetic strength. Whomever can push the most wins.
Also with crushing once you push it into their aura there is a save, which doesn't matter if the 1/3 ton rock is hitting them, but crushing them with a boiled carrot would, not that crushing damage seems to do much. A multiton wall of iron only does 1d6x10 per round.

[Library Ogre]

Well, I'm pretty sure this question is not covered in Mark's Rifter article, but could you use TK against a rune item? Would the soul in the sword give it an aura, and thus a saving throw?

Everything has an aura; I'd say powerful, possessed, magic items have an aura that will effectively defend them.

The second question I have is what happens when someone tries to wrest an object from another using TK. I assume there is a strength check of some sort, but is it simply rolling against your PS? Does the amount of ISP the psionicist uses increase their chance to pull the item out of the other person's grasp? Do they struggle over it like two people fighting over an object with both having control? Could the TK be used to simply prevent the person from using a weapon, even if they still have it in their grasp? I guess that would be like an entangle.

Most of the time, the aura encompasses the object. However, for really big things, you might give it a limit.

As for how strong it is, that's why I changed it from "weight" to "effective PS"... that allows for easier comparisons of strength. Otherwise, I'd just compare lifting amounts.

The opposite would also be in play, theoretically. Could you place something on top of a person's head, like a bucket, and keep pushing it down as they try to remove it? If you pick up a very heavy object and slam in onto a target, can you keep pushing the object down for crushing damage?

Something relatively small, like a bucket, I'd probably let them get out of it; if nothing else, that TK generally has a single plane of force means that someone who is mobile can go down and to the side, slipping away from the item (effectively a dodge).

For big items? Sure. That's going to be PS v. PS; if they can lift the object, they can get out of it.

[Levi]

TK as with all psionics, magic, and other powers is always tricky to balance thematics with playability and plausibility. In games it can be hard enough to manage those for real world things we can observer and try to translate.

So, my take on standard telekinesis (minor/major/super), is that you are telepathically/psionically inferring/inducing/generating kinetic energy in something. And, like any other psionic power, if it is a living creature, they to make a save against that. Which all makes good enough sense. It’s thematic, playable, and plausible.

Of course, these things are never that easy. What about using TK on an object worn or held by someone? Does their aura somehow protect those items? Most seem to lean toward yes. But, how far does the aura extent? How much can the person’s aura shield? Just clothes and small items? What armor? Heavy armor? Power armor? What if they are holding onto a really large item? Or, just have their hand on the item? Where do you draw the line? What makes sense and can keep balance between thematics, playability, plausibility?

Then there are other questions, like how much force/kinetic energy does the item have? What speed does it move it? How fast does it accelerate? TK doesn’t just move something in one direction opposition to gravity; you can move items in any direction. The kinetic energy to move in different directions is not same.

If someone or something tries to stop the motion, how does that work? Say a psychic is moving a 100 pound table and someone grabs it. Is it now protected by their aura? Or, can that person just put enough force on the table to stop it? And, if so, how much is enough force? We don’t really have a definition of how much force is actually instilled in the table. What if some pushes another item in the path of the table? Would a 10 pound chair stop it? How about another 100 pound table? Yes, the psionic moving the table could move it or around the obstacle if there was room.

What if an object is bolted down? How much force is needed to break free of the bolts? We have seen epic TK battles in star wars and other media showing psychics pulling things off walls or out of street to fling them around. Many times those same psychics could pick up something that weighs a lot less the force that would be needed be break bolts or other fasteners though.

This is all make believe and based on not really defined metaphysics that defy reality though. I think before a GM or group can dig into these questions they really would have to decide how TK works in their world. It’s going to be tricky though.

Now, a contest of psionics both trying to control the same object? I could see that handled two ways. One would be for them to make a contested psionic attack roll adding their ME and/or level as a bonus, the winner gaining control of the object. Or, this could be a test of TK energy and whoever puts more ISP into the power wins.

I say roll with whatever is cool and makes enough sense for your perception of how TK works. That might come with tough to answer or explain situations and uses later.