Worst O.C.C./R.C.C. in Rifts

[Killer Cyborg]

The paratrooper OCC in one of the merc groups.

I get that it was written with the airborn miliary mind set but lets face it most nations in rifts have no need of a paratroopers. (IE long distance quick response units.) The only nation in NA with a force projection distance to make use of them is CS, and the CS does not train them.

Their is allot of expense in setting up and maintaining a airborn unit. They are high risk, units that the main strength is quick long distance deployment. Flying PA would likely feel the role they are in with higher suitability and projection of force. Failing PA other smaller craft acting as air assault or jet pack troops would be used.

Heck even with 20 years of war the US has not done a combat jump since 2003. And as I understand it was treated like a training exercise in the execution and follow through. It was not done like a combat jump.

(most other airborne done are for inserting small SF teams. Not combat paratroopers. Rifts tech would make it obsolete. Stealth SF would be more likely to insert with jet packs then parachutes.)

Except the Rifts OCC Paratrooper isn't a "82nd Airborne" type of paratrooper. The OCC could have just as easily been called 'Ranger' or 'Marine Raider' or 'SEAL' or some other such name. If anything, I think this OCC is more like the Marine Raider.

You've hit on the first big flaw: the name is stupid, and doesn't make sense for the setting combined with what the OCC can do.
As pointed out, most nations won't have paratroopers. They MIGHT have some other kind of Special Forces, though, so why the heck would the OCC be called "Paratrooper?"
That's like calling general infantry "Tunnel Rats."

Next up is that there are already any number of Special Forces OCCs that fill the niche that Paratrooper is trying to fill, but the Paratrooper dials it all up to 11 because apparently THESE Special Forces are drastically more special than any other Special Forces.
Which doesn't work either.

And while the OCC is bigger than just paratrooping, naming the OCC that smacks of the kind of "airborn miliary mind set" that Blue Lion is talking about, an over-inflated idea of what Paratroopers are.
Paratrooper is only a "badge of honor" to people who think Paratroopers are a bigger deal than other equally-skilled or superior troops.
The whole "Impervious To Horror Factor" nonsense just underscores that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Pandering to some players' tendencies towards military fetishism often leads to a particularly goofy sort of tedious tribalist argument. "My branch's special operations forces can beat up those guys" has never lent verisimilitude to a setting, but it has dragged down a lot of games, which are already hard enough to make work in the best of circumstances.

YES!!!
Exactly that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Bunch of rambling.....

Dude you are the one that equated the Rifts Paratrooper to an "airborne" combat paratrooper and "airborne" mentality and all this other stuff in your first post about this. Clearly you are way to hung up over the name of the OCC, and trying to inject some preconceived 20th century notions into it. The description says they are far more which is exactly what I've been saying.

And yes it absolutely is a "badge of honor" name just as much as it is for simplicity sake as described in the OCC write up. Think really hard about that before replying, and try to understand it is not only for the sake of us the players but also from a lore perspective within the game.

Sure, it's a badge of honor in the same way calling a Rifts Football Player character class the "Chicago Bears OCC" would be a badge of honor.
It only really honors one kind of person.

Also, there's the whole "Impervious To Horror Factor" part of the OCC. That gives away the special bias of the OCC writer, because you know who else is flat-out impervious to horror factor?
NOBODY IN THE MEGAVERSE*
Dragons? Not impervious. Not even a real bonus, I think.
Gods? Not impervious.
Supernatural Intelligences? Not impervious.
Shifters? +7 in RMB, with another +3 bonus if they're linked with the Supernatural. Changed to +4 at first level in RUE, with up to +5 more in bonuses doled out here or there up through level 15 (and still the +3).

But paratroopers are impervious, because they're just THAT awesome.



*That I can recall ever seeing, anyway.
There might be an individual exception or two somewhere, but even if so, I suspect they'd only underscore my point about how rare or unattainable it should be

[Dustin Fireblade]

You've hit on the first big flaw: the name is stupid, and doesn't make sense for the setting combined with what the OCC can do.
As pointed out, most nations won't have paratroopers. They MIGHT have some other kind of Special Forces, though, so why the heck would the OCC be called "Paratrooper?"
That's like calling general infantry "Tunnel Rats."

Next up is that there are already any number of Special Forces OCCs that fill the niche that Paratrooper is trying to fill, but the Paratrooper dials it all up to 11 because apparently THESE Special Forces are drastically more special than any other Special Forces.
Which doesn't work either.

And while the OCC is bigger than just paratrooping, naming the OCC that smacks of the kind of "airborn miliary mind set" that Blue Lion is talking about, an over-inflated idea of what Paratroopers are.
Paratrooper is only a "badge of honor" to people who think Paratroopers are a bigger deal than other equally-skilled or superior troops.
The whole "Impervious To Horror Factor" nonsense just underscores that.

Why the name? I don't know. I mean Rifts Earth people also think Clint Eastwood and John Wayne were real cowboys from the Old West. Maybe they thought a paratrooper was more elite than what it really is? Maybe they just thought it sounded cool. But as described, it was done for "simplicity sake"

So yeah maybe it just is my head canon that Paratrooper as a name was selected as a badge of honor, but it certainly had nothing to do with an "airborne military mindset" for that. The authors/designers couldn't use the name of Ranger, Commando or Special Forces since they were already used for other OCC's.

Really not sure it's any different than a "Headhunter" coming to describe most merc's, as described by the OCC. I mean, did the early Headhunter's really hunt heads or something? It's possible, but that's more a Bounty Hunter. Why not just call them "mercs" or "soldiers"

Honestly not sure what you mean by what the OCC can do and not making sense for the setting? I mean they make about as much sense of the RUE Cyber-Knight and their "anti-tech" fighting. Or some of the Native American OCC's. Or the barmaid as you pointed out (or saloon bum, whichever one you said I think)

And why wouldn't nations have some of these Paratrooper OCC in their armies? Whykin has how many in their army now? 30,000 or so? Not sure a battalion or so would be out of the question there. Same with NG and MI, Los Alamos or any number of Merc companies or even operating with the Black Market. And they'd operate just like described in the OCC write up for these nation's/organizations.

I do see what you mean about dialing to 11, with their special abilities. But with that said, I think it scales within Rifts Earth easily enough, again in a world of so many other augmented warriors where does the Paratrooper OCC really rank? Anyway we know there will always be more basic grunts/infantry for the armies, no matter where they are located. Then a few less better trained and so on. The Paratrooper would be one of the rarest - to match real world, Delta Force or similar. I mean it's not like the CS is converting their entire army over to the Paratrooper OCC here.


(And all this is why I only have only one true man-at-arms class that I use for my games)

[Killer Cyborg]

You've hit on the first big flaw: the name is stupid, and doesn't make sense for the setting combined with what the OCC can do.
As pointed out, most nations won't have paratroopers. They MIGHT have some other kind of Special Forces, though, so why the heck would the OCC be called "Paratrooper?"
That's like calling general infantry "Tunnel Rats."

Next up is that there are already any number of Special Forces OCCs that fill the niche that Paratrooper is trying to fill, but the Paratrooper dials it all up to 11 because apparently THESE Special Forces are drastically more special than any other Special Forces.
Which doesn't work either.

And while the OCC is bigger than just paratrooping, naming the OCC that smacks of the kind of "airborn miliary mind set" that Blue Lion is talking about, an over-inflated idea of what Paratroopers are.
Paratrooper is only a "badge of honor" to people who think Paratroopers are a bigger deal than other equally-skilled or superior troops.
The whole "Impervious To Horror Factor" nonsense just underscores that.

Why the name? I don't know.

Well, there's no in-game explanation, but there IS an obvious out-of-game explanation, which is that whoever wrote up the OCC has a bit of the "Airborne Military Mindset."
We can make up all kinds of home-brewed in-world explanations, but the fact that none was given points us toward the idea that there is no in-game explanation; the class simply isn't well-thought-out enough for the writer to even think of that kind of thing.

So yeah maybe it just is my head canon that Paratrooper as a name was selected as a badge of honor, but it certainly had nothing to do with an "airborne military mindset" for that. The authors/designers couldn't use the name of Ranger, Commando or Special Forces since they were already used for other OCC's.

And if I were designing a class, but all the appropriate names for classes [u]were already taken[/i], I'd sure as heck consider the idea that the niche I wanted to fill was already more than adequately filled.
Seriously, they jumped the shark with the CS Commando OCC that has HTH Commando that gave auto-dodge--previously only given to Juicers and such.
That was already a pointless, munchy class because there was already the CS Military Specialist OCC, and there was already HTH Expert.
So we already had Elite forces.
Then we had Elite Elite forces.
Then the writer of the Paratrooper apparently thought we needed elite elite elite forces.

The lack of a decent name SHOULD have been quite the tip-off that he was trying to jump a shark over another shark.

Really not sure it's any different than a "Headhunter" coming to describe most merc's, as described by the OCC. I mean, did the early Headhunter's really hunt heads or something? It's possible, but that's more a Bounty Hunter. Why not just call them "mercs" or "soldiers"

Headhunters are more than mercs or soldiers; they're also bounty hunters.
So it's a decent catch-all title.
(Or was, before RUE decided that what the class was really all about was bionics, which made things weird)

Honestly not sure what you mean by what the OCC can do and not making sense for the setting? I mean they make about as much sense of the RUE Cyber-Knight and their "anti-tech" fighting. Or some of the Native American OCC's. Or the barmaid as you pointed out (or saloon bum, whichever one you said I think)

Never, ever, ever let it be said that I have anything but disdain for the CK update and the anti-tech zen powers.
Or, for that matter, the Rifts Native American OCCs.
Or, for that matter, the barmaid or saloon bum.
Basically, all you're saying here is "they make about as much sense as a bunch of other garbage OCCs that should have never been written."

And why wouldn't nations have some of these Paratrooper OCC in their armies?

Any and all nations would obviously want as many [munchkin soldiers designed to be inexplicably better than the previous best] as they could get.
But that's no justification for the OCC.

I do see what you mean about dialing to 11, with their special abilities. But with that said, I think it scales within Rifts Earth easily enough, again in a world of so many other augmented warriors where does the Paratrooper OCC really rank?

Well, that's the thing: ARE the Paratroopers really "augmented warriors?"
Or are they just normal humans who can somehow match augmented warriors without actually having cybernetics/bionics/insanity/magic/psionics/superpowers/etc.?

Because if it's the latter, that should tell you what the problem is.

Anyway we know there will always be more basic grunts/infantry for the armies, no matter where they are located. Then a few less better trained and so on. The Paratrooper would be one of the rarest - to match real world, Delta Force or similar. I mean it's not like the CS is converting their entire army over to the Paratrooper OCC here.

Sure, except the CS Military Specialists already covered Delta Force.
And the Commando also covered it.
And probably a Mercenary OCC or two.

Picture Palladium starting with the Glitterboy OCC in the main book, then later coming out with the Legacy Gliterboy OCC, then later coming out with the Legacy GlitterMAN OCC, each being a more powerful version of basically the same class than the last.
The Glitterboys are already supposed to be the elite.
No point in gilding the lily, or in this case maybe munching the munchkin.

(And all this is why I only have only one true man-at-arms class that I use for my games)

That makes more sense than Palladium's pattern of just making whatever new classes suits their whim, without consideration for how or if they'd fit into the game or game world in a logical way.

[Blue_Lion]

To weather or not a nation would want them.
If they did not have to train them yes they would want them, same as category as juicers. On the front line pushing with the vanguard.
If they had to train them, not as they are. Why spend the resources to train them to airborne specialist. They would not train some one to operate behind enemy lines without a skill like prowl because lets face it if you can't hide you are on a suicide mission to distract the enemy from the main push. As they are written with the skills they have, they would only really be good as part of a vanguard push, but claim to be specialist at operating behind enemy lines. (Basically the OCC fails to live up to its own hype while being some what munchy.


Honestly the Traix Intelligence commando is a class that has the right skills for what the paratrooper claims to do minus the airborne.
Has prowl, and intelligence, scuba, and swimming so can do ranger and navy seal missions. In addition can use PA for when you need the extra punch.
The biggest draw back is lack of stock fast vehicle in the OCC skills.

So if nations had to train some one for the role that the paratooper claims to fill they would look more like the Triax Intelligence commando.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well, there's no in-game explanation, but there IS an obvious out-of-game explanation, which is that whoever wrote up the OCC has a bit of the "Airborne Military Mindset."
We can make up all kinds of home-brewed in-world explanations, but the fact that none was given points us toward the idea that there is no in-game explanation; the class simply isn't well-thought-out enough for the writer to even think of that kind of thing.

Sorry just don't see the "Airborne" thing here for this class. Now if it was described as "Navy Seal Superiority Complex" or some such I could get behind that.

I'm sure there is a in-game reason, and we've had Palladium come back and expand on OCC's that they felt they didn't explain good enough the first time around. RUE expanded a few, Juicer's get their own book, heck even City Rats got a expansion. It would be great if Palladium could/would take the time and book space to really expand the fluff content for the OCC's. Then maybe they'd have less in the first place! But I'm sure there would still be discussion on what a OCC is or isn't.

So we already had Elite forces.
Then we had Elite Elite forces.
Then the writer of the Paratrooper apparently thought we needed elite elite elite forces.

Well on this, while we don't know the exact minds of the writers, I do believe one had previous military experience. So the "tier" system may have been a thought in the design of the Paratrooper.
https://www.liquisearch.com/united_stat ... ier_system
https://special-ops.org/tier-3-special- ... ns-forces/

Headhunters are more than mercs or soldiers; they're also bounty hunters.
So it's a decent catch-all title.
(Or was, before RUE decided that what the class was really all about was bionics, which made things weird)

Well I'd think straight up battles/wars would be the bread and butter of the Headhunter, with bounty hunting on the side or in between jobs. But yeah I thought RUE made it a little weird.

Basically, all you're saying here is "they make about as much sense as a bunch of other garbage OCCs that should have never been written."

Yes I don't disagree, I just don't think the class is properly understood.

That makes more sense than Palladium's pattern of just making whatever new classes suits their whim, without consideration for how or if they'd fit into the game or game world in a logical way.

I should really write those up and post them here for a good review. I'd love to hear what you think of them for example. Being a bit of a grognard they are just hand written in my notebooks and general time constraints it might take a bit.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Honestly the Traix Intelligence commando is a class that has the right skills for what the paratrooper claims to do minus the airborn.
Has prowl, and intelligence, scuba, and swimming so can do ranger and navy seal missions. In addition can use PA for when you need the extra punch.
Really do not see them taking the X-60 flanker over the X-10a preditor. The X-500 only real advantage over the X-10a is the MRM not sure why a 2 man robot has less MDC than a flying PA.

The biggest draw back is lack of stock fast vehicle in the OCC.

Isn't there some sort of a combat pod from WB 5 that was made for NGR special operations? I seem to recall it was made to run silent, or maybe it was faster? Triax 2 got the War Eagle PA that I believe is favored by NGR commando forces.

[Blue_Lion]

Well, there's no in-game explanation, but there IS an obvious out-of-game explanation, which is that whoever wrote up the OCC has a bit of the "Airborne Military Mindset."
We can make up all kinds of home-brewed in-world explanations, but the fact that none was given points us toward the idea that there is no in-game explanation; the class simply isn't well-thought-out enough for the writer to even think of that kind of thing.

Sorry just don't see the "Airborne" thing here for this class. Now if it was described as "Navy Seal Superiority Complex" or some such I could get behind that.

I'm sure there is a in-game reason, and we've had Palladium come back and expand on OCC's that they felt they didn't explain good enough the first time around. RUE expanded a few, Juicer's get their own book, heck even City Rats got a expansion. It would be great if Palladium could/would take the time and book space to really expand the fluff content for the OCC's. Then maybe they'd have less in the first place! But I'm sure there would still be discussion on what a OCC is or isn't.

[quote]

Well they lack the skills of navy seals while claiming they can do it.

The Airborne mind set is airborne thinking they are the best because they jump out of planes and can do the elite jobs even though they are not qualified to do so. They also see themselves as fearless.

Look at the class skills. paratrooper/airborne specialist. +30 to parachute that lacks the skills to avoid detection behind enemy line. Has no fear, and thinks they can do rangers and navy seals job because they can jump out of a plane. (that is text book airborne mindset)

Given that the writer did not include the skills to be ranger or navy seal, my money is on it was written by a combat service support mos that was airborne qualified that has no idea what rangers and navy seals do on missions.

While most ranger are airborne and all SF be they Army Navy or Air-force are trained to jump out of a plane, they are all trained to avoid detection. The key to doing what they do is stealth, surprise surgical strikes are their specialty, navy seals are also good at gathering intelligence. Given some one the mobility of a seal without the skills do do their job is failure while claiming they can is a failed build.

(Navy seals mind set is thinking they are better than normal people because they are seals but that kind of view even if such bias can cause them to under estimate people around them. The difference is Navy seals prove they are elite on a regular bases, while airborne combat drops are rarely used. )

[Hotrod]

Bunch of rambling.....

Dude you are the one that equated the Rifts Paratrooper to an "airborne" combat paratrooper and "airborne" mentality and all this other stuff in your first post about this. Clearly you are way to hung up over the name of the OCC, and trying to inject some preconceived 20th century notions into it. The description says they are far more which is exactly what I've been saying.

And yes it absolutely is a "badge of honor" name just as much as it is for simplicity sake as described in the OCC write up. Think really hard about that before replying, and try to understand it is not only for the sake of us the players but also from a lore perspective within the game.

Sure, it's a badge of honor in the same way calling a Rifts Football Player character class the "Chicago Bears OCC" would be a badge of honor.
It only really honors one kind of person.

Also, there's the whole "Impervious To Horror Factor" part of the OCC. That gives away the special bias of the OCC writer, because you know who else is flat-out impervious to horror factor?
NOBODY IN THE MEGAVERSE*
Dragons? Not impervious. Not even a real bonus, I think.
Gods? Not impervious.
Supernatural Intelligences? Not impervious.
Shifters? +7 in RMB, with another +3 bonus if they're linked with the Supernatural. Changed to +4 at first level in RUE, with up to +5 more in bonuses doled out here or there up through level 15 (and still the +3).

But paratroopers are impervious, because they're just THAT awesome.



*That I can recall ever seeing, anyway.
There might be an individual exception or two somewhere, but even if so, I suspect they'd only underscore my point about how rare or unattainable it should be

Agreed. In real life, the only people who cannot feel fear or shock from traumatic incidents tend to be people who have structural brain damage. I wouldn't consider such a condition desirable for a soldier or anyone else. A while back, I actually wrote up an R.C.C. that was totally incapable of feeling fear or revulsion. You can see it here; it's called "the Attendian." It's a species engineered to be a servant to the wealthy and powerful, and it's pretty sucky at any kind of violence.

To be fair, I think there are some unique traits to paratrooper training. The deliberate choice to jump out of an airplane is not a natural act; it requires a significant element of courage, and there is value in exercising that courage. It also requires the paratrooper to perform necessary and rehearsed tasks under stress. This would justify a bonus to save vs horror factor. It doesn't justify full-on immunity.

[Dustin Fireblade]

To be fair, I think there are some unique traits to paratrooper training. The deliberate choice to jump out of an airplane is not a natural act; it requires a significant element of courage, and there is value in exercising that courage. It also requires the paratrooper to perform necessary and rehearsed tasks under stress. This would justify a bonus to save vs horror factor. It doesn't justify full-on immunity.

I can agree on that.

But hey we also have the Gunslinger. Even if just a little runt of a person, at level 15 I think they have a higher Horror Factor than some demons.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well they lack the skills of navy seals while claiming they can do it.

(Blue_Lion's post trimmed to reduce size - big wall of text below)


Long story short it seems pretty clear to me the Paratrooper can perform any mission needed.


Parachuting? Yes the Paratrooper is better with their +30, but the CS Commando gets it at +20. The CS Military Specialist, Special Forces, RLT Commando and Nautical Specialist/SEAL doesn't get it at all, but can select it at a +15% with a Related skill. (The CS Grunt can select it as a Related at +15 too).

Prowl? Paratrooper can select as a Related (no bonus). The CS Commando and CS Nautical Specialist/SEAL doesn’t get this either. (Related option no bonus unless selected as a “Rogue” skill – then only a +4% for the Commando, +6% for the SEAL), neither does the CS Military Specialist (they can select it as a “Rogue” skill at well but with just a +2% bonus!) The Ranger is only +10, and the CS Special Forces and RLT Commando are +15.

Land Navigation? Paratrooper has it at +15. CS Special Forces and the Commando have it at +10, Ranger is +20. RLT Commando is +15. Meanwhile NEITHER the Nautical Specialist/SEAL or the Military Specialist get it to start, but can select as a Related/Secondary option (no bonus)

Intelligence? Paratrooper doesn’t have it, but can select as a Related (no bonus), Ranger does not start with it but can select as Related (+5), CS Commando, Special Forces, Military Specialist and Nautical Commando are all +10, the RLT Commando does not get it and can’t get it at all.

Swim/SCUBA? The Paratrooper is +20 at both. The CS Commando, Ranger or Special Forces do not get either (Related option for all, no bonus)

Climbing? Paratrooper has a +10, but with a +30 to Rappelling. CS Commando is +10, Ranger is +15, Special Forces is +15, RLT Commando is +15. Military Specialist doesn’t get it to start but can as a Related (no bonus)

SEAR? Paratrooper is +20 here. CS Ranger is +20, CS Special Forces and the CS Commando are +15, Military Specialist doesn’t get it, but can with a Related choice (+10). The RLT gets a +10.

Combat Skills: Paratrooper gets 5 total WP’s and HtH Commando. Special Forces gets 4 WP’s and HtH Commando and Boxing. Ranger gets WP E-Rifle and Basic HtH. CS Commando gets4 WP’s and HtH Commando. RLT Commando gets 4 WP’s and Expert HtH (can upgrade). Nautical Spec/SEAL gets just 3 WP’s and either Martial Arts or Assassin HtH. The Military Specialist gets 5 WP’s and Expert HtH (can upgrade)

Just to note under combat skills – the Paratrooper gets the Marksmanship OCC ability/skill and a number of other bonuses. The Nautical Spec/SEAL gets a number of bonuses, while the RLT Commando gets some very minor bonuses

Piloting Skills: Paratrooper gets 2 of choice at +10 but must be One Ground/One Water. Military Specialist gets two basic plus Pilot Robots/PA and Basic Robot Combat. Commando gets Pilot/Choice at +10 and Pilot Robot/PA. Could select 4 more with MOS at +10. Ranger gets one of choice at +15. Special Forces gets Pilot/Choice +10, Pilot Robot/PA and Robot Combat Elite SAMAS Striker. RLT Commando has Pilot Tanks at +10 and that’s it. (NOTE – The Navy Infantryman could select the “Navy Infantry RPA” option, but that doesn’t help the RLT). And the Nautical Spec/SEAL gets warships and motor boats at +15 each, along with Robot Combat Elite SAMAS and Sea SAMAS.

Related/Secondary Skills (total numbers)
Paratrooper – 18 Related / 12 Secondary
Commando – 12 Related / 8 Secondary
Ranger – 12 Related / 6 Secondary
Special Forces – 12 Related / 12 Secondary
RLT Commando – 7 Related / 6 Secondary
Nautical Spec/SEAL – 10 Related / 8 Secondary

Rundown -
The CS classes have the edge with vehicles for the most part, and get a lot of power armor, while the Paratrooper will have to burn Related skills to get those if desired.
The paratrooper can get in by parachuting/swimming/SCUBA better than any of them.
The paratrooper has less chance to get lost. Only the CS Ranger is better, and the RLT Commando can match.
The paratrooper has some of the best SEAR training
The paratrooper doesn’t get to sneak around, needing to burn a Related to get Prowl. But hey the CS Military Specialist (whose hallmark is recon) doesn’t get it to start either and will only be slightly better
The paratrooper isn’t the best at intel gathering missions, but again can select it. Oddly the RLT Commando doesn’t get it either. The rest of the CS classes aren’t exactly lighting up the numbers here.
Overall Combat Skills - The paratrooper has the edge with their Marksmanship ability and other bonuses here. The CS Nautical Specialist/SEAL I’d place just behind them.

[SolCannibal]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

[Hotrod]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

You mean more of an "a la carte" approach, where you pick clusters of skills/abilities? I haven't built a HU-type character in a long time.

[Blue_Lion]

Well they lack the skills of navy seals while claiming they can do it.

(Blue_Lion's post trimmed to reduce size - big wall of text below)


Long story short it seems pretty clear to me the Paratrooper can perform any mission needed.


Parachuting? Yes the Paratrooper is better with their +30, but the CS Commando gets it at +20. The CS Military Specialist, Special Forces, RLT Commando and Nautical Specialist/SEAL doesn't get it at all, but can select it at a +15% with a Related skill. (The CS Grunt can select it as a Related at +15 too).

Prowl? Paratrooper can select as a Related (no bonus). The CS Commando and CS Nautical Specialist/SEAL doesn’t get this either. (Related option no bonus unless selected as a “Rogue” skill – then only a +4% for the Commando, +6% for the SEAL), neither does the CS Military Specialist (they can select it as a “Rogue” skill at well but with just a +2% bonus!) The Ranger is only +10, and the CS Special Forces and RLT Commando are +15.

Land Navigation? Paratrooper has it at +15. CS Special Forces and the Commando have it at +10, Ranger is +20. RLT Commando is +15. Meanwhile NEITHER the Nautical Specialist/SEAL or the Military Specialist get it to start, but can select as a Related/Secondary option (no bonus)

Intelligence? Paratrooper doesn’t have it, but can select as a Related (no bonus), Ranger does not start with it but can select as Related (+5), CS Commando, Special Forces, Military Specialist and Nautical Commando are all +10, the RLT Commando does not get it and can’t get it at all.

Swim/SCUBA? The Paratrooper is +20 at both. The CS Commando, Ranger or Special Forces do not get either (Related option for all, no bonus)

Climbing? Paratrooper has a +10, but with a +30 to Rappelling. CS Commando is +10, Ranger is +15, Special Forces is +15, RLT Commando is +15. Military Specialist doesn’t get it to start but can as a Related (no bonus)

SEAR? Paratrooper is +20 here. CS Ranger is +20, CS Special Forces and the CS Commando are +15, Military Specialist doesn’t get it, but can with a Related choice (+10). The RLT gets a +10.

Combat Skills: Paratrooper gets 5 total WP’s and HtH Commando. Special Forces gets 4 WP’s and HtH Commando and Boxing. Ranger gets WP E-Rifle and Basic HtH. CS Commando gets4 WP’s and HtH Commando. RLT Commando gets 4 WP’s and Expert HtH (can upgrade). Nautical Spec/SEAL gets just 3 WP’s and either Martial Arts or Assassin HtH. The Military Specialist gets 5 WP’s and Expert HtH (can upgrade)

Just to note under combat skills – the Paratrooper gets the Marksmanship OCC ability/skill and a number of other bonuses. The Nautical Spec/SEAL gets a number of bonuses, while the RLT Commando gets some very minor bonuses

Piloting Skills: Paratrooper gets 2 of choice at +10 but must be One Ground/One Water. Military Specialist gets two basic plus Pilot Robots/PA and Basic Robot Combat. Commando gets Pilot/Choice at +10 and Pilot Robot/PA. Could select 4 more with MOS at +10. Ranger gets one of choice at +15. Special Forces gets Pilot/Choice +10, Pilot Robot/PA and Robot Combat Elite SAMAS Striker. RLT Commando has Pilot Tanks at +10 and that’s it. (NOTE – The Navy Infantryman could select the “Navy Infantry RPA” option, but that doesn’t help the RLT). And the Nautical Spec/SEAL gets warships and motor boats at +15 each, along with Robot Combat Elite SAMAS and Sea SAMAS.

Related/Secondary Skills (total numbers)
Paratrooper – 18 Related / 12 Secondary
Commando – 12 Related / 8 Secondary
Ranger – 12 Related / 6 Secondary
Special Forces – 12 Related / 12 Secondary
RLT Commando – 7 Related / 6 Secondary
Nautical Spec/SEAL – 10 Related / 8 Secondary

Rundown -
The CS classes have the edge with vehicles for the most part, and get a lot of power armor, while the Paratrooper will have to burn Related skills to get those if desired.
The paratrooper can get in by parachuting/swimming/SCUBA better than any of them.
The paratrooper has less chance to get lost. Only the CS Ranger is better, and the RLT Commando can match.
The paratrooper has some of the best SEAR training
The paratrooper doesn’t get to sneak around, needing to burn a Related to get Prowl. But hey the CS Military Specialist (whose hallmark is recon) doesn’t get it to start either and will only be slightly better
The paratrooper isn’t the best at intel gathering missions, but again can select it. Oddly the RLT Commando doesn’t get it either. The rest of the CS classes aren’t exactly lighting up the numbers here.
Overall Combat Skills - The paratrooper has the edge with their Marksmanship ability and other bonuses here. The CS Nautical Specialist/SEAL I’d place just behind them.

If it is their primary job you should not have to spend skill choices to get them. The issue is not weather or not they can get it as a choice but if the default package has them. If you going to claim a OCC can do the job of a modern navy seal they are going to need the skill to do seal missions. Part of the problem is the some times the people writing the classes have no idea about the requirement of some military jobs.

While rangers do stealth and scouting they are not primary intelligence gathers. The are best at assault, not as good at defense. They are guerilla warfare experts.

Army SF (green Barret's) are good at stealth behind the lines assault, infiltration and intelligence gathering, target extraction and training local resistance forces.

Navy Seals are good at stealth behind the lines assaults intellgence gathering and water infiltration, target extraction. (In the war on terror Navy seals and army SF share the same mission task rotation, so for the most part they can do each others missions. Other than training of local forces.)

Airforce PJ (para-rescue) are good at going behind enemy lines and rescuing friendly forces.They where created to rescue downed pilots.

Commando is kind of universal term for people that are good at stealth assaults and shock and awe. Army SF, and navy seals would be able to do commando missions, not sure on Airforce PJs, Us Army Rangers could technically be called commandos as well.


SEARS - is a army acronym for training to avoid capture and survive behind enemy lines, and if captured resist enemies attempt to gather intelligence and escape. It includes camouflage, prowl, and survial skills as well visual signaling methods.

The overly high bonuses is why some people use the M word for paratrooper.

(not sure what a RLT Comando is.)
As I said the traix intellgence commando does seam to have the skills to do a navy seals missions.

[Blue_Lion]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

Over all I do not see a problem with lots of OCCs as long as they are done well.
I have played around with a system where rather than hard class you get skills based on back ground and then Job/role. The problem is that system works best with point build systems.

The biggest con is it will make many books need revised, amounting to a total change of edition. In the past they have made variant occs where it just a modified version of a base OCC. Rifts Canada did that with the old headhunter, and SoT with cyber knights. (that caused people to scream power creep.)

OCC is suppose to be about your occupation and lets face it their are lots of occupations in adventures.

[Dustin Fireblade]

If it is their primary job you should not have to spend skill choices to get them. The issue is not weather or not they can get it as a choice but if the default package has them. If you going to claim a OCC can do the job of a modern navy seal they are going to need the skill to do seal missions. Part of the problem is the some times the people writing the classes have no idea about the requirement of some military jobs.

(not sure what a RLT Comando is.)
As I said the traix intellgence commando does seam to have the skills to do a navy seals missions.

I guess I don't mind needing to spend Related choices, within the Palladium system - but I think that's a whole other discussion.
At any rate, I wholeheartedly agree authors not knowing the requirements for military jobs.

The CS RLT Commando is the CS Navy Infantryman with the "Recon Landing Team Commando" MOS package, one of two options they could possibly select (the other is a Robot/Power Armor pilot)

[Dustin Fireblade]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

You mean more of an "a la carte" approach, where you pick clusters of skills/abilities? I haven't built a HU-type character in a long time.

Sort of? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've whittled my game down to just 12 total OCC's now. Each OCC has a number of options to customize it further. Basically I started with System Failure as my starting point in terms of OCC's, then expanded them using different abilities found from Rifts and HU.

The "Exterminator/Headhunter" OCC has 12 different special abilities available - however they only start with 2 and can only get 2 more total as they level up.

[Blue_Lion]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

You mean more of an "a la carte" approach, where you pick clusters of skills/abilities? I haven't built a HU-type character in a long time.

Sort of? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've whittled my game down to just 12 total OCC's now. Each OCC has a number of options to customize it further. Basically I started with System Failure as my starting point in terms of OCC's, then expanded them using different abilities found from Rifts and HU.

The "Exterminator/Headhunter" OCC has 12 different special abilities available - however they only start with 2 and can only get 2 more total as they level up.

How do you deal with mages, I would think the specialty spell casters (ones that use non standard evocation) would cause an issue.

[Dustin Fireblade]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

You mean more of an "a la carte" approach, where you pick clusters of skills/abilities? I haven't built a HU-type character in a long time.

Sort of? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've whittled my game down to just 12 total OCC's now. Each OCC has a number of options to customize it further. Basically I started with System Failure as my starting point in terms of OCC's, then expanded them using different abilities found from Rifts and HU.

The "Exterminator/Headhunter" OCC has 12 different special abilities available - however they only start with 2 and can only get 2 more total as they level up.

How do you deal with mages, I would think the specialty spell casters (ones that use non standard evocation) would cause an issue.

In my early write ups, I believe I had 24 OCC's - 6 each for the magic and psi, and 12 to cover everything mundane. I know one was the Necromancer and I don't think I really changed much if anything (this was back in 2010 or so).

Eventually, as I was doing the overall world building I decided at some point, those type of specialty spell casters just wouldn't be "evolved/discovered" yet on Rifts Earth. So that just left me with what would become the Shaman and Chosen.

The Shaman is pretty much a mixture of the Chaos Earth Para-Arcane and the CS RCSG Scientist. They can cast magic in the form of ritual's.

The Chosen is pretty much the "Mystically Bestowed" power category. I had plans to try and make that as much of a catch all category but have never got around to it.

Honestly - my player group just doesn't like magic. Give them laser rifles or psychic power. So I ended up focusing more there

[desrocfc]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

My next blog post tackles the Men-At-Arms from all the Rifts World Books and Sourcebooks. To put it mildly, there is a stupendous amount of duplication across the library. Not quite the HU system, but suggests bringing over 200 OCCs down to something more manageable by leveraging an MOS style approach.

[Dustin Fireblade]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

My next blog post tackles the Men-At-Arms from all the Rifts World Books and Sourcebooks. To put it mildly, there is a stupendous amount of duplication across the library. Not quite the HU system, but suggests bringing over 200 OCCs down to something more manageable by leveraging an MOS style approach.

I thought I recall reading somewhere that Kevin did not like the MOS system - maybe in Chaos Earth? - but created/included it due to player demand or something. Just something to throw out there maybe to look into for your write up.

[SolCannibal]

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

You mean more of an "a la carte" approach, where you pick clusters of skills/abilities? I haven't built a HU-type character in a long time.

Yes, pretty much this. Having a table that will indicate the type of education (high school, college, military, or trade school), educational bonus, and a number of "Skill Programs" & Secondary skills to be selected seems, with maybe a little tweaking to better reflect the post-apocalyptic setting, like a pretty viable option for Rifts Earth too. Though i'll be the first to admit it has been a bunch of years since i last built HU character, for a AU:GG game with Mystic China seasonings, so would need to get some time getting myself re-acquainted to tackle that idea in the right frame of mind, i guess.

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

My next blog post tackles the Men-At-Arms from all the Rifts World Books and Sourcebooks. To put it mildly, there is a stupendous amount of duplication across the library. Not quite the HU system, but suggests bringing over 200 OCCs down to something more manageable by leveraging an MOS style approach.

That would be nice to see indeed. Please post a link when it's up for us to take a look.

So, going into a wild tangent, though somewhat connected to the subject matter of the topic, has someone considered or actually tackled adapting the ever growing plethora of OCCs & RCCs we presently have in Rifts into something like HU's scheme of character creation? Curious about the pros & cons of such a "game redesign" exercise at play.

My next blog post tackles the Men-At-Arms from all the Rifts World Books and Sourcebooks. To put it mildly, there is a stupendous amount of duplication across the library. Not quite the HU system, but suggests bringing over 200 OCCs down to something more manageable by leveraging an MOS style approach.

I thought I recall reading somewhere that Kevin did not like the MOS system - maybe in Chaos Earth? - but created/included it due to player demand or something. Just something to throw out there maybe to look into for your write up.

I honestly wouldn't know since i don't have Chaos Earths corebook to say either way, so not going to assume anything either way.

[Killer Cyborg]

To be fair, I think there are some unique traits to paratrooper training. The deliberate choice to jump out of an airplane is not a natural act; it requires a significant element of courage, and there is value in exercising that courage. It also requires the paratrooper to perform necessary and rehearsed tasks under stress. This would justify a bonus to save vs horror factor. It doesn't justify full-on immunity.

Yup.
I could go with "impervious to height-based fear/Horror" or I could go with a flat "+2 to save vs Horror Factor" (or even +3).
It's the arrogance of thinking "people who jump out of airplanes are far more fearless than people who have tea with Cthulu" that bugs me, not the general idea of the courage being represented in someway.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, there's no in-game explanation, but there IS an obvious out-of-game explanation, which is that whoever wrote up the OCC has a bit of the "Airborne Military Mindset."
We can make up all kinds of home-brewed in-world explanations, but the fact that none was given points us toward the idea that there is no in-game explanation; the class simply isn't well-thought-out enough for the writer to even think of that kind of thing.

Sorry just don't see the "Airborne" thing here for this class. Now if it was described as "Navy Seal Superiority Complex" or some such I could get behind that.

You known many people who've gone through Airborne training?

If this was a Navy SEAL superiority complex, the OCC wouldn't be called "paratroopers," as that's not the main identity of SEALS.
Whereas an Airborne dude (or fanboy) claiming that they're on equal footing with SEALS seems pretty likely.

So we already had Elite forces.
Then we had Elite Elite forces.
Then the writer of the Paratrooper apparently thought we needed elite elite elite forces.

Well on this, while we don't know the exact minds of the writers, I do believe one had previous military experience. So the "tier" system may have been a thought in the design of the Paratrooper.
https://www.liquisearch.com/united_stat ... ier_system
https://special-ops.org/tier-3-special- ... ns-forces/

Your first link highlights why the tier system would be a bad thing to model OCCs on:
Quite often a specific tier status is believed to be synonymous with the ranking of a SOF unit above others; which is false. The tier system was implemented to ascertain how much funding a specific unit in SOCOM should receive. Granted that the two most elite units in the US arsenal, Delta Force and DEVGRU (SEAL Team 6), are classified as Tier 1. This causes the widespread belief that only the most elite units are in the Tier 1 structure when in fact the most "important" units to the mission at hand fall under Tier 1. This includes Delta Force, DEVGRU (SEAL Team 6), Intelligence Support Activity, Joint Communications Unit, JMAU (a medical unit with battlefield surgical capabilities), and the 24th Special Tactics Squadron.

A system designed to determine realworld modern US funding, based on how important a unit is to the mission at hand, does not mean anything about how Elite, deadly, skilled, or combat-capable the unit is.

What it comes down to for me is this:
People in the military (and/or associated with specific branches/units of the military in other ways, and/or who are simply fans of certain branches/units) have biases.
For most practical intents and purposes, on the level of verisimilitude that a RPG like Rifts has, there's no effective difference between different Special Forces.
But many people who are (or have been) in a real-world special force are likely to be quite biased toward their own group, just as members of the military are in general.
Part of the military mindset is believing that your group is awesome, and a lot of that ends up meaning you think your group is more awesome than another group that's really pretty comparable.

Think of it like this:
While there are professional football teams who are better than other professional football teams,
for the most part--to the extend required for RPG representation--it makes more sense to have a "Professional Football Player OCC" and NOT a different OCC for each team,
especially since over the years depending on who's running things, which team is better than any other team is subject to change,
and because while one team might be overall superior to another team, that doesn't mean that all the players on the first team are superior to all the players on the second.
But if you ask a member of a professional football team--or a fan of the team--they'll be fairly likely to argue that their own team is special.
If somebody writes up a Chicago Bears OCC, then they're most likely a Chicago Bears fan/player.
Even if the writeup describes the OCC as "One of the great professional football players, the kind you find in the Chicago Bears, or [insert famously fantastic football team A], [insert famously fantastic football team B], and so forth."

And it's be incredibly redundant when there's already a "Professional Football Player OCC."
Even more so if there's also a "Professional Quarterback OCC" or some other needlessly redundant class in addition.

Basically, all you're saying here is "they make about as much sense as a bunch of other garbage OCCs that should have never been written."

Yes I don't disagree, I just don't think the class is properly understood.

Hm.
Fair enough.

I should really write those up and post them here for a good review. I'd love to hear what you think of them for example. Being a bit of a grognard they are just hand written in my notebooks and general time constraints it might take a bit.

I hear ya!
I've got an entire box of old notebooks full of RPG scribblings of various sorts.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well, there's no in-game explanation, but there IS an obvious out-of-game explanation, which is that whoever wrote up the OCC has a bit of the "Airborne Military Mindset."
We can make up all kinds of home-brewed in-world explanations, but the fact that none was given points us toward the idea that there is no in-game explanation; the class simply isn't well-thought-out enough for the writer to even think of that kind of thing.

Sorry just don't see the "Airborne" thing here for this class. Now if it was described as "Navy Seal Superiority Complex" or some such I could get behind that.

You known many people who've gone through Airborne training?

If this was a Navy SEAL superiority complex, the OCC wouldn't be called "paratroopers," as that's not the main identity of SEALS.
Whereas an Airborne dude (or fanboy) claiming that they're on equal footing with SEALS seems pretty likely.

Many. From my best friends dad (had many stories growing up) and a former neighbor, and who knows how many I interacted with when I was active. Pride certainly, but not arrogance.

Ranger tabbed soldiers were more arrogant, but it seemed to vary honestly. Never met anyone in the 75th Ranger Regiment. Did meet a few Special Forces when I was at Ft. Belvoir.

And I was an MP, everyone seemed to hate us.

But actually, thinking about my friends dad (who was like a 2nd father to me), I had a epiphany. Because I was around him so much growing up I believe I was simply so use to anyone Airborne I didn't really notice it when dealing with them later in life. Didn't think of it until you asked. Thanks!

Think of it like this:
While there are professional football teams who are better than other professional football teams,
for the most part--to the extend required for RPG representation--it makes more sense to have a "Professional Football Player OCC" and NOT a different OCC for each team,
especially since over the years depending on who's running things, which team is better than any other team is subject to change,
and because while one team might be overall superior to another team, that doesn't mean that all the players on the first team are superior to all the players on the second.
But if you ask a member of a professional football team--or a fan of the team--they'll be fairly likely to argue that their own team is special.
If somebody writes up a Chicago Bears OCC, then they're most likely a Chicago Bears fan/player.
Even if the writeup describes the OCC as "One of the great professional football players, the kind you find in the Chicago Bears, or [insert famously fantastic football team A], [insert famously fantastic football team B], and so forth."

But I want my Dallas Cowboy OCC!

[Fenris2020]

The total immunity to Horror Factor is kind of silly.
I went through the airborne training, and still have a mild fear of heights.
Personally, I preferred air assault schools.

[Curbludgeon]

The "Nerves of Steel" ability is, essentially, a mundane-themed roughly half strength version of the Powers Unlimited 1 Minor Superpower Impervious to Fear & Terror. It would be a reasonable option for a modular lightly-modified fightin' type (comparable to a Headhunter's bionic limb, some HU Super Soldier options, the Euro-Juicer's JAEP system, 1-2 psynetic implants, et al), if themed in terms of a surgical procedure/magical ritual/psionic brainwashing. The OCC's Hold Breath ability would be better implemented as a physical skill, so as to allow modeling things like pearl/sponge divers. The fluff description of the class lays it on a little thick, but that can be said about the company's entire oeuvre.

The real problem with the Paratrooper OCC is the Marksmanship ability. Being able to make called and aimed shots at no penalty while on a moving vehicle/running/swimming/parachuting is something even the OCCs with Sharpshooting can't do. Not even the mystically-themed Gun Master can swing that. The Vintex RCC in WB30 is the only other class I know of with the ability. If anyone knows of any other example pretty please share.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, there's no in-game explanation, but there IS an obvious out-of-game explanation, which is that whoever wrote up the OCC has a bit of the "Airborne Military Mindset."
We can make up all kinds of home-brewed in-world explanations, but the fact that none was given points us toward the idea that there is no in-game explanation; the class simply isn't well-thought-out enough for the writer to even think of that kind of thing.

Sorry just don't see the "Airborne" thing here for this class. Now if it was described as "Navy Seal Superiority Complex" or some such I could get behind that.

You known many people who've gone through Airborne training?

If this was a Navy SEAL superiority complex, the OCC wouldn't be called "paratroopers," as that's not the main identity of SEALS.
Whereas an Airborne dude (or fanboy) claiming that they're on equal footing with SEALS seems pretty likely.

Many. From my best friends dad (had many stories growing up) and a former neighbor, and who knows how many I interacted with when I was active. Pride certainly, but not arrogance.

Then you're probably familiar with the slang term "leg."

Any group that has a specific derogatory term for non-members is not free of arrogance, whether or not the term is mostly used in fun.

But actually, thinking about my friends dad (who was like a 2nd father to me), I had a epiphany. Because I was around him so much growing up I believe I was simply so use to anyone Airborne I didn't really notice it when dealing with them later in life. Didn't think of it until you asked. Thanks!

Think of it like this:
While there are professional football teams who are better than other professional football teams,
for the most part--to the extend required for RPG representation--it makes more sense to have a "Professional Football Player OCC" and NOT a different OCC for each team,
especially since over the years depending on who's running things, which team is better than any other team is subject to change,
and because while one team might be overall superior to another team, that doesn't mean that all the players on the first team are superior to all the players on the second.
But if you ask a member of a professional football team--or a fan of the team--they'll be fairly likely to argue that their own team is special.
If somebody writes up a Chicago Bears OCC, then they're most likely a Chicago Bears fan/player.
Even if the writeup describes the OCC as "One of the great professional football players, the kind you find in the Chicago Bears, or [insert famously fantastic football team A], [insert famously fantastic football team B], and so forth."

But I want my Dallas Cowboy OCC!

[SolCannibal]

Hey, what if i want my Dallas Cowboys to be the Gunslinger OCC instead?!

[Hotrod]

What makes an O.C.C. Good or bad?

[Killer Cyborg]

What makes an O.C.C. Good or bad?

Alignment.

[Warshield73]

What makes an O.C.C. Good or bad?

To me this would almost be better in its own thread, but for me it comes down to a few things.

1. Is it unique / does it fill a niche that no other OCC does? This is why I HATE the endless parade of new CS OCCs but I love the Shifter variant that is the Tolkeen Artifact Hunter.

2. Does it have a hook? A skill selection, power(s), equipment, anything that makes a player go "I want to play that". This is my problem with the old Phase World OCCs, they are kind of boring compared to the newer OCCs in RUE and recent dimension and world books.

3. Can it travel? If an OCC is so setting specific that it really doesn't work anywhere else on Rifts Earth (I'm looking at you New West and Rifts England OCCs) then to me, it is kind of useless.

What makes an O.C.C. Good or bad?

Alignment.

When I saw Hotrod's post I wanted to reply to this but once again I thwarted by KC.

[Blue_Lion]

What makes an O.C.C. Good or bad?

I use a few factors.
A how well it fits in to the setting.
B how well it fits the group power level.

If I can't see the reason it exists or who would spend the resources to train them that makes them real bad.

If a OCC over powers every thing around it that is also bad. A cosmo knight in a new west game, is bad. But a occ that is so under-powered they can't really make a difrence in the groups goals can be just as bad. (body fixer in a group of cosmo knights.)

[Omegasgundam]

A bad OCC is one that simply does not belong in the campaign that's being played, be it from having poor justification or wrong power balance. A TERRIBLE OCC doesn't fit in ANY campaign. The Saloon Bum is one of the go-to examples of the latter.

[Curbludgeon]

The question is good for whom. The standardized formatting of class descriptions have a big footprint, and so if padding out a book is the goal then, for example, making Sheriff a different class than Sheriff's Deputy is at least nominally good. In that case a Vagabond variant with an increased tolerance for alcohol isn't a big deal. The Chinese Demon Quellers have access to a similar option, and it isn't as if some people can't put it away.

A different perspective would be systemic streamlining such that, for instance, 7-10 generic types of handgun(including non-custom TW) available in maybe 3 levels of quality is more than enough granularity for a game system, and for a *CC to warrant print it better do something that can't be accomplished otherwise. YMMV.

Several classes that should be excised for being bad are pretty obvious, but it can be useful to determine what protected roles were found within them, so they might be reapplied in a more useable way. The GRT tired trope classes as seen in the Triax and Russia books, for instance, are full of the standard stereotypes of scarf wearing itinerant thieves and fortunetellers. That noise is for the birds, and has gotta go. There was, however, the notion of a dedicated psychic healer, as well as a "learned" spell caster who in comparison to a Ley Line Walker trades a little facility with magic for increased skill access. There are a couple of versions of both of those sorts of character out there, and taken in abstract have a valid place in a game. Whether or not a skill-focused magician should be just a variant of the base caster class is a worthwhile thing to consider.

Similarly, while many of the classes in Rifts Africa and Spirit West are problematic, in a vacuum there are things to salvage. Between the two there's a continuum of character focus on magical item creation, spanning from learned to intuitive to granted practitioners, as well as classes focused on ceremonial magic, specific types of effect (e.g. animal/plant/healing), and a framework for what are effectively superpowers. While a lot of the hopefully well intentioned fluff should go, as well as all the noble savage stuff, there is material that could be adapted. Maybe there's value in a more general magician, with access to a number of character sliders regarding familiarity with technology, method of gaining spells, ability to imbue items with magic, and degree of focus on magic versus mundane matters.