TW Idea - Modular Spell Tommy-Gun

[Daniel Stoker]

So I was talking with a friend about making a Techno Wizard and trying to work out some ways to play with the system. One idea was TW bullets (which I sorta remember being mentioned here way back when), but after some back and forth a new idea came up. Taking one of the drum magazines that you see in all the gangster movies and building the specific spell requirements gems and the like into that portion and then leave the rifle with your more 'generic' components needed. So if you need agony, build that in one magazine, then when you want to switch to damage, pull that magazine off and slap in the TK bullet one.

So does that seem feasible to anyone else, or are we barking up the wrong tree here?


Daniel Stoker

[ShadowLogan]

The short answer is: YES.

The more complicated answer is: Maybe. The main sticking point here is the spell chain(s) involved and the specifics on just how you go about it.

"TW Bullets" should be possible, they don't amount to anything more than TW Goblin Grenades (ie Single Use items) IMHO. They likely are also not practical, at least for something like an automatic weapon (each INDIVIDUAL bullet is likely to take hours to build or be ridiculously expensive).

A reusable TW Magazine/Clip would work, as it IMHO would count as adding to existing technology instead of a scratch build.

Making a modular TW gun (swap out components like the ammo storage part) is probably also possible, but also going to be more complicated (off hand I don't know of any) and should be reflected in any penalties to construct. It might just be easier and simpler to build in multiple functions in the same device/gun (still have a limit of 4) than mess with something modular.

[taalismn]

It's the entire basis of my Multiplexor system, and TW revolvers with a different gem in each chamber....so you can have interchangeable cylinders with six different spells in them, the cylinders' overall composition varying by expected need....Expecting regular street work with little or no resort to lethal force? Load a cylinder with Agony, Stun, Magic Net, and other similar spells. Expecting serious trouble? Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Barrage. etc....

[Orin J.]

So I was talking with a friend about making a Techno Wizard and trying to work out some ways to play with the system. One idea was TW bullets (which I sorta remember being mentioned here way back when), but after some back and forth a new idea came up. Taking one of the drum magazines that you see in all the gangster movies and building the specific spell requirements gems and the like into that portion and then leave the rifle with your more 'generic' components needed. So if you need agony, build that in one magazine, then when you want to switch to damage, pull that magazine off and slap in the TK bullet one.

So does that seem feasible to anyone else, or are we barking up the wrong tree here?


Daniel Stoker

you want feasible or sane? because going off the TW rules as we have them you'd need to build the main gun as a trigger-operated amulet with specific charging requirements you can build into a weapon magazine alongside the spells themselves, which is easilly getting into the millions to make solid. possible, but also the sort of weapon a TW builds as a vanity project because of the costs involved, not to mention the thing'd not exactly be cast-efficent what with charging the magazine to charge the gun...

also tommy guns were SMGs not rifles.

[Blue_Lion]

It's the entire basis of my Multiplexor system, and TW revolvers with a different gem in each chamber....so you can have interchangeable cylinders with six different spells in them, the cylinders' overall composition varying by expected need....Expecting regular street work with little or no resort to lethal force? Load a cylinder with Agony, Stun, Magic Net, and other similar spells. Expecting serious trouble? Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Barrage. etc....

The are few sources for enchanted bullets, new west had TW guns that shot special bullets.
A spell can allow them to do mdc.

If instead of bullets you convert the large round drum magazine into a large revolving chambered TW spell gems in theory you could dial in the spell you need. Depending on GM the number of affects you could put in would vary.

That said the PPE drain for full auto spells would be insane. Likely in the hundreds per burst.

[ShadowLogan]

The are few sources for enchanted bullets, new west had TW guns that shot special bullets.

Actually no it does not, in point of fact there is only x1 TW gun that can fire special bullets (TW Thundergun) that become enchanted (without a silver coating they do not become enchanted). Every other TW Gun in WB14 (pg214-8) does not enchant its bullets, though many can still fire regular bullets as long as their is no magical energy stored in weapon.

"Conventional bullets (6) can be fired from the weapon, but cannot be loaded or fired until all magic energy has been discharged"-WB14 pg214 TW-38. Similar entries appear in the TW-45/TW-Six-Gun, TW Spitfire Revolver, TW-Super-Six Carbine, TW Windblaster Rifle, TW Old Lightning Rifle, TW Hellfire Shotgun, TW Snare Gun. The TW Eagle Eye Marksman Rifle and TW Sapper cannot use conventional bullets. IINM I've listed all the TW guns in WB14.

The only other "enchanted"/"psychic charged" bullets come from the Psi-Slinger class (who can charge bullets to do MD) in WB14.

EDIT: I am just saying there is only 1 TW gun that fires special bullets, not 2 or more as implied in the post.

[Blue_Lion]

The are few sources for enchanted bullets, new west had TW guns that shot special bullets.

Actually no it does not, in point of fact there is only x1 TW gun that can fire special bullets (TW Thundergun) that become enchanted (without a silver coating they do not become enchanted). Every other TW Gun in WB14 (pg214-8) does not enchant its bullets, though many can still fire regular bullets as long as their is no magical energy stored in weapon.

"Conventional bullets (6) can be fired from the weapon, but cannot be loaded or fired until all magic energy has been discharged"-WB14 pg214 TW-38. Similar entries appear in the TW-45/TW-Six-Gun, TW Spitfire Revolver, TW-Super-Six Carbine, TW Windblaster Rifle, TW Old Lightning Rifle, TW Hellfire Shotgun, TW Snare Gun. The TW Eagle Eye Marksman Rifle and TW Sapper cannot use conventional bullets. IINM I've listed all the TW guns in WB14.

The only other "enchanted"/"psychic charged" bullets come from the Psi-Slinger class (who can charge bullets to do MD) in WB14.

EDIT: I am just saying there is only 1 TW gun that fires special bullets, not 2 or more as implied in the post.

Sorry did not check the book but new they talked about firing TW bullets in new west.
It was more about places to look to see what was done than anything. So the number really does not change the spirit of the post. (Honestly your opening line almost read as being no you are wrong over 1 letter in my post, even while saying it was not completely wrong but that could be just me.)

In new west yes but their is a spell Enchant weapon (minor) page 152 the Book of magic that I also mentioned.
As I said a few sources for enchanted bullets, the gun in new west and a spell.

[ITWastrel]

I'd rule the weapon be two separate TW items.

The lower receiver, handle, stock, and rear portion of the upper receiver would be a TW trigger for a modular upper receiver, chamber and firing mechanism. I figure Energy Bolt is a decent cost, and paying 7 PPE when you swap chambers feels about right.

That front module would have to be built with all the parts of the desired TW weapon, at full cost and with identical stats as the book.

At this point I'd be tempted with modular TW barrels and TW attachments. Eyes of the Eagle scope, Globe of Silence barrel, the whole kit.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see an argument for required modification to allow a submachine gun to chamber both conventional and magically-generated ammunition, in which case ITWastrel's idea of a TW firing assembly sounds about right. Arguably either a weapon unable to fire normal rounds or a weapon that still uses SDC rounds but can overlay an effect might be a better approach.

As for C drum magazines with individual spells, the closest thing in print I can think of is the Stonecaster Pistol/Rifle found in the Lemuria book. The description in WB32 details the three stone magic-based ammo types the gun can fire, as well as how "clips" of blank stone projectiles can be loaded and subsequently enchanted into what's desired. The mechanism by which that happens isn't described, unfortunately.

[Mack]

Try this on for size.

[ITWastrel]

Try this on for size.

And Mack rises to lay one down from the first Obama administration.

Respect.

[drewkitty ~..~]

...snip...

So does that seem feasible to anyone else, or are we barking up the wrong tree here?


Daniel Stoker

My understanding of the idea... ""the magazine enchants the bullets put into it when bullets leave it to be fired by a mundane firearm. with the spell taking effect once it hits a target/something.""

short answer: can't be built with just the spells in the rifts books.

What is needed is magic that auto-enchants mundane ammunition as it is fired. The enchantment spell found within the NB books have this ability. It would take some linking of the spell to the enchantment spell to make it work.
the magic item would also need a PPE storage if it to be used by non-magic users.

[taalismn]

At this point I'd be tempted with modular TW barrels and TW attachments. Eyes of the Eagle scope, Globe of Silence barrel, the whole kit.

Sounds like the original Man From U.N.C.L.E. gun with scads of accessories.
"Build your own magic weapon!"
Wait, does this come under the definition of 'ghost gun', especially if you load on concealment features?

[Mlp7029]

As has been pointed out only a few TW weapons fire enchanted bullets. I did something similar with the 7.62 mm barrel on JA-11 but the “bullet” was an emitter. Each emitter fired a different kind of spell. We found burst firing spells to be too saving throw onerous on the GM. If you are going to burst fire spells that require saving throws I recommend you go with a negative modifier on the target’s save vs multiple saving throws. The other option is to increase the number of targets affected instead of multiple saves from one target. My GM and I have discussed the probability of succeeding at multiple successive saves at length. After trying a few five saves from a long burst he decided it was too unbalancing and we changed to a -1 to saving throws from a short burst. My GM liked that but due to the PPE drain my character never used burst fire again for saving throw spells just damage dealing spells.

[Daniel Stoker]

My understanding of the idea... ""the magazine enchants the bullets put into it when bullets leave it to be fired by a mundane firearm. with the spell taking effect once it hits a target/something.""

short answer: can't be built with just the spells in the rifts books.

What is needed is magic that auto-enchants mundane ammunition as it is fired. The enchantment spell found within the NB books have this ability. It would take some linking of the spell to the enchantment spell to make it work.
the magic item would also need a PPE storage if it to be used by non-magic users.

No that wasn't what I was thinking of. In this case it was that the crystals in the magazine would be what works for a specific spell, so if you wanted to do TK Bullets you'd put in Magazine A which would have the gems to run that, then you pull that one out and replace it with the Magic Net magazine when you need that one. So you'd have the generic crystals/gems in the gun for making it work then just pick which spell you wanted and use that magazine when you wanted that spell.


Daniel Stoker

[Blue_Lion]

...snip...

So does that seem feasible to anyone else, or are we barking up the wrong tree here?


Daniel Stoker

My understanding of the idea... ""the magazine enchants the bullets put into it when bullets leave it to be fired by a mundane firearm. with the spell taking effect once it hits a target/something.""

short answer: can't be built with just the spells in the rifts books.

What is needed is magic that auto-enchants mundane ammunition as it is fired. The enchantment spell found within the NB books have this ability. It would take some linking of the spell to the enchantment spell to make it work.
the magic item would also need a PPE storage if it to be used by non-magic users.

TW can do things with spells that is normally not possible, and there is already a spell to make bullets fired by a gun mundane gun be magical.
-Book of magic pg 152-Enchant weapon (minor). Can enchant 72 bullets that magically inflict mdc when fired by normal guns.
(draw back is the par about limit about how often but TW may over ride that ask GM, and it is a level 15 spell.)
Linked with the spell effect you are trying to create in a spell chain.
That would make it possible to do that using only spells found in rifts to do what you said could not be done.

So to do COA bullets would be Enchant weapon (minor) 400 PPE, and COA 10PPE +GM linking requirements.
With these spells you could then run it through rifts TW item guide lines and come up with something. That would enchant a bullet to release a spell when fired by mundane gun. (as you can see PPE and construction cost may be high for this weapon) Put bullets in magazine charge the magazine activate spell chain on the bullets then when you fire them they release the magic affect.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My understanding of the idea... ""the magazine enchants the bullets put into it when bullets leave it to be fired by a mundane firearm. with the spell taking effect once it hits a target/something.""

short answer: can't be built with just the spells in the rifts books.

What is needed is magic that auto-enchants mundane ammunition as it is fired. The enchantment spell found within the NB books have this ability. It would take some linking of the spell to the enchantment spell to make it work.
the magic item would also need a PPE storage if it to be used by non-magic users.

No that wasn't what I was thinking of. In this case it was that the crystals in the magazine would be what works for a specific spell, so if you wanted to do TK Bullets you'd put in Magazine A which would have the gems to run that, then you pull that one out and replace it with the Magic Net magazine when you need that one. So you'd have the generic crystals/gems in the gun for making it work then just pick which spell you wanted and use that magazine when you wanted that spell.


Daniel Stoker

*nods*
So it's modular in the way that the part of the magic Item that was made out of the rifle body is just a projector that "launches" whatever spell input comes into it (& maybe giving it a range boost.) While the spells come from a storage (magazine) magic item, or maybe additionally directly from the magic user using the magic item.

A tommygun's circular magazine or a .50 cal rifle magazine would be the size limitation I would put on this idea if I was looking to make things "balanced".

[Blue_Lion]

My understanding of the idea... ""the magazine enchants the bullets put into it when bullets leave it to be fired by a mundane firearm. with the spell taking effect once it hits a target/something.""

short answer: can't be built with just the spells in the rifts books.

What is needed is magic that auto-enchants mundane ammunition as it is fired. The enchantment spell found within the NB books have this ability. It would take some linking of the spell to the enchantment spell to make it work.
the magic item would also need a PPE storage if it to be used by non-magic users.

No that wasn't what I was thinking of. In this case it was that the crystals in the magazine would be what works for a specific spell, so if you wanted to do TK Bullets you'd put in Magazine A which would have the gems to run that, then you pull that one out and replace it with the Magic Net magazine when you need that one. So you'd have the generic crystals/gems in the gun for making it work then just pick which spell you wanted and use that magazine when you wanted that spell.


Daniel Stoker

*nods*
So it's modular in the way that the part of the magic Item that was made out of the rifle body is just a projector that "launches" whatever spell input comes into it (& maybe giving it a range boost.) While the spells come from a storage (magazine) magic item, or maybe additionally directly from the magic user using the magic item.

A tommygun's circular magazine or a .50 cal rifle magazine would be the size limitation I would put on this idea if I was looking to make things "balanced".

Wait when did it get upgraded to .50 cal riffle.
I could have sworn it fired .45 cal apc that is pistole ammo.
A sub machine gun typically does not shoot rifle ammo

[drewkitty ~..~]

....
A tommygun's circular magazine or a .50 cal rifle magazine would be the size limitation I would put on this idea if I was looking to make things "balanced".

Wait when did it get upgraded to .50 cal riffle.
I could have sworn it fired .45 cal apc that is pistole ammo.
A sub machine gun typically does not shoot rifle ammo

You didn't read what I wrote carefully.
I was describing the min. size requirements if I, as a GM, was looking to make things "balanced".

[Blue_Lion]

....
A tommygun's circular magazine or a .50 cal rifle magazine would be the size limitation I would put on this idea if I was looking to make things "balanced".

Wait when did it get upgraded to .50 cal riffle.
I could have sworn it fired .45 cal apc that is pistole ammo.
A sub machine gun typically does not shoot rifle ammo

You didn't read what I wrote carefully.
I was describing the min. size requirements if I, as a GM, was looking to make things "balanced".

I did read what you wrote. It reads as you clarifying the drum as a .50 cal rifle magazine.

Balance on TW should about affect not size. Because there are times when an idea would require working on a smaller frame.

[Daniel Stoker]

*nods*
So it's modular in the way that the part of the magic Item that was made out of the rifle body is just a projector that "launches" whatever spell input comes into it (& maybe giving it a range boost.) While the spells come from a storage (magazine) magic item, or maybe additionally directly from the magic user using the magic item.

A tommygun's circular magazine or a .50 cal rifle magazine would be the size limitation I would put on this idea if I was looking to make things "balanced".

Exactly, I figured the circular magazine would give you more space to work with, especially if you had the rifle holding it's own set of crystals just for the 'firing/launching' portion, but yeah there will be limits. Though now I have images of it 'shooting' out a huge anti-magic cloud to really mess with people.


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

Making them the way I see them..... Just make it a pistol and use the regular sized (10 round) mags for that pistol to change out the spells.
The spell mags *coin toss* might be able to hold power to use. but they would be limited in the amount of power they could store.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It was pointed out to me that some here too ignorant to know the difference between a Thomson sub-machinegun a.k.a a Tommy gun which uses a .45 APC rounds and can a drum magazine which is about 10 inches in diameter Which sits perpendicular/crosswise to the barrel , and a .50 cal rifle who's magazine is about 9 inches long, about inch & 1/2 wide and if a 5 round mag about 6 inch tall at the casing end., that sits in line with the barrel.

If you are still totally lost, there is Wikipedia.