MD Melee Weapons + Supernatural PS

[narcissus]

For the sake of the roll20 sheet I've been working on, how do people generally handle supernatural PS when using MD melee weapons?

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 286 tells us the rule.
WB5's description of Gargoyle weapons, and XI's description of Xiticix weapons, and so forth, are exceptions to the rule, not something that over-rides RUE.

There are zero great ways to handle things, though, which is one of the problems with even having Supernatural PS in the first place.

[ITWastrel]

The RUE rule is idiotic, but it's the latest rule, so it's official.

Incredibly stupid, but official.

How stupid is it, you ask?

According to RUE, if a magic sword does 6D6 MD and is swung by a mook with a PS of 8, it still inflicts 6-36MD. Pretty good for a normal guy, right? Your crappy PS doesn't even hold you back. WooHoo, Magic!

A Supernatural creature with a 40SNPS (5D6MD punch), who can literally rip open tanks with her bare hands, does 6D6 MD. Exactly the same effect as the mook, and her SNPS adds NOTHING to the damage of this weapon.
Being strong is useless, OK.

Except...

A titan (SNPS 60) who does 1D6x10MD per punch picks up that sword, and does absolutely no more damage than with his fists.

A magic F-ing sword does NOTHING for the Titan.

The RUE rule is stupid.

[narcissus]

The RUE rule is stupid.

I couldn't agree more. And it gets stupider...

supernatural beings in­flict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater.

The only time the PS damage bonus in that statement will ever matter, it would need to be at least a +100 SDC damage, which means a PS of 115. At which point, as per CB1R 11:

Supernatural P.S. beyond 60: For every 10 points of P.S. beyond 60, add a further 10 points of damage.

I'm doing 1D6x10+50. So, for my SNPS of 115 to actually add to weapon damage, the weapon would need to do at least 1D6x10+50, at which point i could add 1 MD (100 SDC) to it from my SDC damage bonus. With a 115 Supernatural PS. 1 extra point of MD.

[hup7]

More on the how stupid is it ... (although I am loath to use that term, and I think poorly written is better)
"Note: Supernatural beings do NOT add the P.S. attribute damage bonus to their M.D. attacks, but may add it to pulled punches that inflict S.D.C. damage instead of M.D." (RUE p285)

So wait, if I "pull" my punch ("Pull Punch: The ability to control the force of a hand to hand attack, whether it be a punch, kick or with a hand weapon." (RUE p346)), hold back my strength - that is WHEN I ADD my strength?

I have previously followed the rule (as understood) from the Game Master's Guide / QnA:
"Do Hand to Hand P.S. damage bonuses apply to energy melee weapons?
No damage bonuses apply to the use of energy melee weapons unless there is a physical damage component to the weapon involved. Not even if the attacker has Supernatural Strength.
For example, with a Psi-Sword, Flaming Sword or Energy Sword, only the weapon damage applies, any P.S. damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.
However, a Vibro-Sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon. The same is true of rune weapons and TW weapons which have an actual cutting blade and such."

Lately I add supernatural PS to ALL MDC melee weapons (and thrown weapons too).

However, I do have my own house rule on things breaking, but it differs from the RUE breaking based on damage and uses the item's MDC. For example: if a "sword" has 14 MDC and your supernatural punch does 2d6 MDC, it is very unlikely it will be damaged (if you get a critical - possible). If your supernatural PS inflicts 3d6 MDC there is a good chance you will do over 14 MDC and therefore damage the weapon. Yes, we sometimes must come up with how many MDC a weapon has, but it stops characters with very high supernatural PS using "simple" items to do extra damage, they must look for something that can handle their strength.

[Fenris2020]

Meh, I ignore the RUE version of the rule just like I ignore the "GI Joe" rule.
It's far more logical to me that MD melee weapon damages get applied to MD strength damages.

[Killer Cyborg]

The RUE rule is idiotic, but it's the latest rule, so it's official.

Incredibly stupid, but official.

How stupid is it, you ask?

According to RUE, if a magic sword does 6D6 MD and is swung by a mook with a PS of 8, it still inflicts 6-36MD. Pretty good for a normal guy, right? Your crappy PS doesn't even hold you back. WooHoo, Magic!

A Supernatural creature with a 40SNPS (5D6MD punch), who can literally rip open tanks with her bare hands, does 6D6 MD. Exactly the same effect as the mook, and her SNPS adds NOTHING to the damage of this weapon.
Being strong is useless, OK.

Except...

A titan (SNPS 60) who does 1D6x10MD per punch picks up that sword, and does absolutely no more damage than with his fists.

A magic F-ing sword does NOTHING for the Titan.

The RUE rule is stupid.

Not exactly.

One problem is that you're looking at Supernatural PS as if it was the same as a person being really, really strong; it's NOT.
As the Supernatural Physical Strength description tells us (RGMG 25, for one):
Simply put, supernatural beings and creatures are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw upon arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence.
You're looking at a rule governing creatures that break the laws of physics, and calling the rule stupid because it doesn't make sense with the laws of physics.
Which misses the point.

Supernatural Physical Strength causes damage because it's Supernatural, NOT because it's Physical Strength.

For instance, let's look at three normal human beings with normal PS that operates under the laws of physics (as best approximated by Palladium's system)
Alan has PS 6. He can carry 60 lbs. He can lift 120 lbs. He inflicts 1d4 point of SDC/HP damage on a punch (gets no damage bonus from HTH skills either, because he's so weak).
Betty has a PS of 10, human average. She can carry 100 lbs. She can lift 200 lbs. She inflicts 1d4 SDC/HP damage on a punch.
Cedrick has a PS of 18, higher than human average. He can carry 360 lbs. He can lift 720 lbs. He can inflict 1d4+3 SDC/HP damage on a punch.

Now let's look at three Supernatural Beings with Supernatural PS:
Azazel has a PS of 3. He can carry 60 lbs. He can lift 120 lbs. He can inflict 4d6 SDC/HP on a punch.
Baal has a PS of 10. He can carry 200 lbs. He can lift 400 lbs. He can inflict 4d6 SDC/HP on a punch.
Choronzon has a PS of 16. He can carry 320 lbs. He can lift 640 lbs. He can inflict 1d6 MD (1d6x100 SDC/HP) on a punch.

From a sense of physics, NONE of this makes sense:
-Alan can lift/carry the exact same amount of physical weight as Azazel; Azazel punches around 6x harder.
-Betty can lift/carry 40% more than Azazel can. She punches for roughly 1/6 the damage Azazel can.
-Cedrick can lift/carry almost twice as much weight as Baal. Baal punches for more than 3x the damage Cedrick does.
-Cedric can lift/carry more than Choronzon can. Choronzon punches for over 85x the damage Cedric punches for.
-Azazel can only lift/carry around 1/3 the physical weight that Baal can. Azazel and Baal punch for exactly the same amount of damage.
-Choronzon can lift/carry less than 2x the amount of physical weight Ball can. Choronzon can punch for 25x more damage.
-Choronzon can lift/carry over 5x more than Azazel. Choronzon can punch for 25x more damage.

Physics does not guide Supernatural Physical Strength.
The Supernatural does.

In fact, if you go back to the earliest days of Rifts, "Supernatural Physical Strength" wasn't even a thing. Before Conversion Book 1 came out, supernatural creatures like vampires and dragons inflicted mega-damage simply because they were supernatural. Sure, Supernatural creatures have different Lift/Carry rules from normal humans, but so do Dog Boys and Juicers. "Supernatural PS" was no more or less of a thing than "Dog Boy PS" or "Juicer PS" was.
It was simply implied and accepted that the reason why Dragons could punch for so much more was because they're dragons, not because they're actually strong enough to punch that hard.
Dragons--regardless of what their PS was--inflicted the same 2d6 damage on a punch. The only thing their PS determined was how much they could lift/carry, and how much they could lift/carry didn't affect their punch damage one iota, because their damage was based on their Supernatural status, NOT on their actual physical ability.
The introduction of "Supernatural Physical Strength" created a kind of correlation between how much a dragon or other supernatural creature could lift/carry, in that now both a supernatural creature's Lift/Carry numbers AND their Punch damage is determined by their PS score, but that's not the same as their punch damage being determined by their actual physical strength, the amount that they can lift and carry, the physical ability of their muscles.

So drop all physics-based assumptions about supernatural creatures and their punch damage; their damage is not based in physics.

Instead, think of it like this:
A person or critter who can only lift 320 lbs SHOULD--according to physics--only be able to inflict around 1d4+3 SDC, but IF the person/critter is Supernatural, they can magically inflict 1d6 MD instead, a bit over 85x what the physics-based damage would be.
A dagger can--according to physics--only be able to inflict 1d6 SDC/HP damage in the hands of somebody with no PS or other damage bonuses.
But a magic dagger can--in the hands of the same no-bonus person--magically inflict more damage to the tune of 1d6 MD, or 4d6 MD, or 6d6 MD, or whatever other number the stats say.

Basically, Supernatural Creatures (or other beings with Supernatural PS) are effectively turned into magic weapons that inflict far, far more damage than they would be able to without that magical boost.

When you think about "If a Supernatural creature with a Supernatural PS so high they can inflict 6d6 MD with their bare hands swings a runesword that inflicts 6d6 MD, what should the combined damage be?"
Do not think about it in terms of "a person/critter who's strong enough to inflict 6d6 MD with their bare hands" swinging a runesword that inflicts the same amount of damage in the hands of somebody who isn't strong at all. That's not how this works.
It's actually a person/critter who's magically able to inflict 6d6 MD with their bare hands swinging a rune sword that is magically able to inflict 6d6 MD regardless of the PS of the wielder.
In those terms, there's nothing really surprising about the RUE-described outcome.
Just as we were pondering the question "If you taped one 6d6 MD magic weapon to the end of another 6d6 MD MD magic weapon, how much damage should it inflict?"
The answer is NOT 12d6 MD; magic effects don't stack like that.
The answer is that only one of the magic weapons would actually inflict the damage, so you only go with one of the two listed damages.

In the case where one magic weapon is a magic fist, and the other magic weapon is a sword, you get to go with whichever damage is higher.
Which is actually generous, if anything. They could just go with weapon damage regardless of Supernatural PS, since it's not the magic fist that's actually hitting the target.

[Lordonyx]

The RUE rule is idiotic, but it's the latest rule, so it's official.

Incredibly stupid, but official.

How stupid is it, you ask?

According to RUE, if a magic sword does 6D6 MD and is swung by a mook with a PS of 8, it still inflicts 6-36MD. Pretty good for a normal guy, right? Your crappy PS doesn't even hold you back. WooHoo, Magic!

A Supernatural creature with a 40SNPS (5D6MD punch), who can literally rip open tanks with her bare hands, does 6D6 MD. Exactly the same effect as the mook, and her SNPS adds NOTHING to the damage of this weapon.
Being strong is useless, OK.

Except...

A titan (SNPS 60) who does 1D6x10MD per punch picks up that sword, and does absolutely no more damage than with his fists.

A magic F-ing sword does NOTHING for the Titan.

The RUE rule is stupid.

Not exactly.

One problem is that you're looking at Supernatural PS as if it was the same as a person being really, really strong; it's NOT.
As the Supernatural Physical Strength description tells us (RGMG 25, for one):
Simply put, supernatural beings and creatures are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw upon arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence.
You're looking at a rule governing creatures that break the laws of physics, and calling the rule stupid because it doesn't make sense with the laws of physics.
Which misses the point.

Supernatural Physical Strength causes damage because it's Supernatural, NOT because it's Physical Strength.

For instance, let's look at three normal human beings with normal PS that operates under the laws of physics (as best approximated by Palladium's system)
Alan has PS 6. He can carry 60 lbs. He can lift 120 lbs. He inflicts 1d4 point of SDC/HP damage on a punch (gets no damage bonus from HTH skills either, because he's so weak).
Betty has a PS of 10, human average. She can carry 100 lbs. She can lift 200 lbs. She inflicts 1d4 SDC/HP damage on a punch.
Cedrick has a PS of 18, higher than human average. He can carry 360 lbs. He can lift 720 lbs. He can inflict 1d4+3 SDC/HP damage on a punch.

Now let's look at three Supernatural Beings with Supernatural PS:
Azazel has a PS of 3. He can carry 60 lbs. He can lift 120 lbs. He can inflict 4d6 SDC/HP on a punch.
Baal has a PS of 10. He can carry 200 lbs. He can lift 400 lbs. He can inflict 4d6 SDC/HP on a punch.
Choronzon has a PS of 16. He can carry 320 lbs. He can lift 640 lbs. He can inflict 1d6 MD (1d6x100 SDC/HP) on a punch.

From a sense of physics, NONE of this makes sense:
-Alan can lift/carry the exact same amount of physical weight as Azazel; Azazel punches around 6x harder.
-Betty can lift/carry 40% more than Azazel can. She punches for roughly 1/6 the damage Azazel can.
-Cedrick can lift/carry almost twice as much weight as Baal. Baal punches for more than 3x the damage Cedrick does.
-Cedric can lift/carry more than Choronzon can. Choronzon punches for over 85x the damage Cedric punches for.
-Azazel can only lift/carry around 1/3 the physical weight that Baal can. Azazel and Baal punch for exactly the same amount of damage.
-Choronzon can lift/carry less than 2x the amount of physical weight Ball can. Choronzon can punch for 25x more damage.
-Choronzon can lift/carry over 5x more than Azazel. Choronzon can punch for 25x more damage.

Physics does not guide Supernatural Physical Strength.
The Supernatural does.

In fact, if you go back to the earliest days of Rifts, "Supernatural Physical Strength" wasn't even a thing. Before Conversion Book 1 came out, supernatural creatures like vampires and dragons inflicted mega-damage simply because they were supernatural. Sure, Supernatural creatures have different Lift/Carry rules from normal humans, but so do Dog Boys and Juicers. "Supernatural PS" was no more or less of a thing than "Dog Boy PS" or "Juicer PS" was.
It was simply implied and accepted that the reason why Dragons could punch for so much more was because they're dragons, not because they're actually strong enough to punch that hard.
Dragons--regardless of what their PS was--inflicted the same 2d6 damage on a punch. The only thing their PS determined was how much they could lift/carry, and how much they could lift/carry didn't affect their punch damage one iota, because their damage was based on their Supernatural status, NOT on their actual physical ability.
The introduction of "Supernatural Physical Strength" created a kind of correlation between how much a dragon or other supernatural creature could lift/carry, in that now both a supernatural creature's Lift/Carry numbers AND their Punch damage is determined by their PS score, but that's not the same as their punch damage being determined by their actual physical strength, the amount that they can lift and carry, the physical ability of their muscles.

So drop all physics-based assumptions about supernatural creatures and their punch damage; their damage is not based in physics.

Instead, think of it like this:
A person or critter who can only lift 320 lbs SHOULD--according to physics--only be able to inflict around 1d4+3 SDC, but IF the person/critter is Supernatural, they can magically inflict 1d6 MD instead, a bit over 85x what the physics-based damage would be.
A dagger can--according to physics--only be able to inflict 1d6 SDC/HP damage in the hands of somebody with no PS or other damage bonuses.
But a magic dagger can--in the hands of the same no-bonus person--magically inflict more damage to the tune of 1d6 MD, or 4d6 MD, or 6d6 MD, or whatever other number the stats say.

Basically, Supernatural Creatures (or other beings with Supernatural PS) are effectively turned into magic weapons that inflict far, far more damage than they would be able to without that magical boost.

When you think about "If a Supernatural creature with a Supernatural PS so high they can inflict 6d6 MD with their bare hands swings a runesword that inflicts 6d6 MD, what should the combined damage be?"
Do not think about it in terms of "a person/critter who's strong enough to inflict 6d6 MD with their bare hands" swinging a runesword that inflicts the same amount of damage in the hands of somebody who isn't strong at all. That's not how this works.
It's actually a person/critter who's magically able to inflict 6d6 MD with their bare hands swinging a rune sword that is magically able to inflict 6d6 MD regardless of the PS of the wielder.
In those terms, there's nothing really surprising about the RUE-described outcome.
Just as we were pondering the question "If you taped one 6d6 MD magic weapon to the end of another 6d6 MD MD magic weapon, how much damage should it inflict?"
The answer is NOT 12d6 MD; magic effects don't stack like that.
The answer is that only one of the magic weapons would actually inflict the damage, so you only go with one of the two listed damages.

In the case where one magic weapon is a magic fist, and the other magic weapon is a sword, you get to go with whichever damage is higher.
Which is actually generous, if anything. They could just go with weapon damage regardless of Supernatural PS, since it's not the magic fist that's actually hitting the target.

But Supernatural Strength IS more physically powerful.. using poorly written descriptions of the lowest levels of each category to Justify a Rule that makes no sense to the majority of players is just doing whatever mental gymnastics are required to make rules that are dumb, work for you. Supernatural Strength is stronger than Augmented and Stronger than Robotic (except for Giant Robots) the problem with poorly written rules that makes no sense.. is that it allows people to latch onto whatever they can find to Justify "Why it Works this way" which, btw , is the same thing people do in religions, picking the verses and passages that best "fit" their ideology. All your explanation really shows is your insistence to believe that the spaghetti plate of inconsistency we call "Rules" for this "system" was put together by someone you WANT to believe is smart enough to mean exactly what was written is perfect and the "Way it is meant to Be". Welcome to the Religion of Seimbieda, preaching from the Book of RUE.

[Killer Cyborg]

But Supernatural Strength IS more physically powerful..

Source for that claim?

using poorly written descriptions of the lowest levels of each category to Justify a Rule that makes no sense to the majority of players is just doing whatever mental gymnastics are required to make rules that are dumb, work for you.

Hey, never for one moment let it be said that I don't think the strength rules are dumb; they are.
But what's dumb is having different tiers of PS in the first place, instead of going with just one kind.
The entire reason why there is ever any confusion with the PS rules is because Palladium decided to go with more than one lift/carry standard, and more than one PS damage type/bonus.

But none of that changes anything I said.
The books flat-out tells us that Supernatural PS breaks the laws of physics.
The rules for Supernatural PS don't make sense in terms of physics (not just compared to real-world physics, of course, but to physics as they're depicted in the game world in the form of normal PS).
It's not a stretch to connect those two dots.

As for "using poorly written descriptions of the lowest levels of each category," those were just a few examples.
The descriptions of the rules isn't poorly written; they accurately depict what the actual rules of the game are.

But sure, let's look at some other levels.
An ordinary being who operates within the laws of physics with a PS of 30 can carry 600 lbs, lift 1200 lbs, and can punch for 1d4+15 SDC
A supernatural critter with PS 18 can carry 900 lbs and lift 1800 lbs, and can punch for 1d6 MD.

So we're looking at a supernatural critter who can lift/carry .5x more than the moral, and who punches for 31.6 times more damage.
THAT makes sense to you in the realm of physics...?

Face it; there's no real relation between the lifting/carrying ability of supernatural creatures and the damage dealing capability that makes sense in relation to normal humans and normal physics.

If you want to claim there's any level where everything makes sense from a physics perspective when it comes to comparing supernatural PS to normal PS, find that level and demonstrate how it makes sense.
I'm all ears.

Supernatural Strength is stronger than Augmented and Stronger than Robotic (except for Giant Robots) the problem with poorly written rules that makes no sense.. is that it allows people to latch onto whatever they can find to Justify "Why it Works this way" which, btw , is the same thing people do in religions, picking the verses and passages that best "fit" their ideology. All your explanation really shows is your insistence to believe that the spaghetti plate of inconsistency we call "Rules" for this "system" was put together by someone you WANT to believe is smart enough to mean exactly what was written is perfect and the "Way it is meant to Be". Welcome to the Religion of Seimbieda, preaching from the Book of RUE.

Not at all.
Siembieda is dreadfully imperfect. But that's not the same as being entirely imperfect.
I went into things trying to figure out why the PS rules were so messed up, and I did a lot of research.
You have not.
You've just looked at the rule for supernatural PS and punch damage, decided it was stupid, and try to interpret any and all evidence to support your knee-jerk reaction.
Congrats...?


The evolution of the rules for Supernatural PS in Rifts is clear:
-Initially PS score had nothing to do with punch damage for supernatural creatures. They had flat damage amounts regardless of PS.
-Then came the Pogtal Warrior in VK (pp 150-152), the first time Palladium tried to write rules for a really strong Hulk-like creature who could rip trees out of the ground and hit people with them.
Pogtals had an Energy Aura that "turns ordinary, hand-held, SDC weapons/items into MDC extensions of the Pogtal! Thus, a strike from an SDC giant sword, club, dagger, or uprooted tree inflicts the 4d6 MD of
a full strength punch from the giant."
Note that the Pogtal's punch damage was 4d6 MD, regardless of PS.
Note that when a Pogtal picked up a SDC sword, he inflicted his punch damage with it.
Sounds a LOT like Supernatural PS as described by RUE, doesn't it?

So what happens when a Pogtal's Energy Aura tries to interact with a magic sword?
"The damage from magic weapons is the higher amount of damage; i.e, a magic weapon that inflicts 2d6 MD will inflict the 4d6 MD of the punch, while a magic weapon that inflicts 6d6 MD will inflict 6d6 MD because it is higher than the normal full strength punch."
Sound familiar....?

Most likely it does, because that's the same way Supernatural PS works.
Because the Pogtal's energy field was the middle-ground between "supernatural creatures can lift more, and also supernatural creatures can punch for mega-damage" and "Hey, there's this thing called Supernatural PS that allows certain beings to break the laws of physics by punching for mega-damage and lifting/carrying a lot more than they normally could..."
The CB1 rules are just a refined version of the Pogtal's energy aura, adjusted for more of a sliding scale so different creatures and individuals don't all use the same numbers.

What's the alternative?
That Palladium on one hand came up with the Pogtal's Energy field, then for CB1 started from scratch and decided, "Hey, let's make a thing called Supernatural PS that we describe as breaking the laws of physics, BUT it really just describes creatures that operate within the laws of physics, and are just really strong," and they just happened to come up with the same rules for that entirely physics-bound kind of PS that the Pogtal's supernatural energy aura used, by coincidence...?

I'm not buying it for a moment.

Face it; people want Supernatural Punch Damage to stack with magic weapon damage because:
a) it would make their characters more powerful and badass
and
b) it makes more intuitive sense based on real-world physics where actual physical strength dictates how much damage something does. Strong guy wielding big sharp sword does more damage than weak guy with the same sword

Even though we already know the magical world of Rifts doesn't work like that.
Take a guy with mortal PS 40, give him a runesword that inflicts 6d6 MD, and he inflicts the flat weapon damage.
Take a guy with mortal PS 3, give him the same sword, and he inflicts the same flat weapon damage.
Take a Juicer with mortal PS anything, give him the same sword, and he inflicts the same flat weapon damage.
Take a Dog Boy with mortal PS anything, give him the same sword, and he inflicts the same flat weapon damage.
Take a robot with a Robotic PS of 3, or 30, give him the same sword, and he inflicts the same flat weapon damage.
Take a supernatural creature with PS anything, give him the same sword, and he/she/it also inflicts the same flat weapon damage, just like anybody else... unless their natural punch damage is more, then they inflict their punch damage.

Magic mega-damage weapons inflict flat weapon damage without any kind of strength bonus or penalty ever as a rule.
That's the same way they work for Supernatural Creatures too, except those guys get the possibility of inflicting more than the weapon damage IF they can already punch for more damage, so they get the best of both worlds.

People just want magic weapons to work differently for supernatural critters than for anybody else because it'd be kewl, not because it actually make any sense with either the rules or the history of the rules.
But wanting doesn't change the text, nor the rules, nor how the rules came to be.

[narcissus]

I really appreciate your explanations @Killer Cyborg, and the thought that went into them. They are "plausible" (KS' favorite word) in context.

My personal issue around this is with WB5 and the Gargoyle nation possessing such advanced... what? Magic? Technology? That only they can create weapons that actually add to SNPS damage. I believe this book came out on the heels of CB1 when SNPS was just being introduced. I think this is why so many people gravitate towards it being a proper rule - it wasn't intended to be an exception, it was intended to expand on how SNPS worked. And since then, and RUE's SNPS rule, some people have gone one way, and others have gone the other. Personally, as a GM, I just can't plausibly believe that the Gargoyle nation can create weapons more advanced (from a SNPS/damage perspective) than rune weapons. Especially since a lot of them aren't even magical (Knuckle Spikes anyone?). Even the whip adds SNPS damage, but regular SDC whips don't? It really feels like they were just going whole hog at that point - SNPS Punch damage for everyone!

[The Beast]

I prefer the Nightbane (or HU2, I forget which) rules that allows you to combine the damage, but you also risk breaking the weapon if you end up doing too much damage (obviously that last part wouldn't apply to rune weapons).

[ITWastrel]

I think the color text of SNPS really sells the "because magic" side of why the game rules allow supernatural critters to go toe to toe with technology.

Rifts uses there MDC system because being a godlike, bulletproof bastich that blows basketball size holes in buildings with his sidearm or a quick incantation is pure munchkin food.

That means we needed excuses for the monsters to be just as badass, so even a ticked off tinyboi with SNPS could rip open your skull walker and eat you. Sure, the imp does MD, it's magic.

That's all well and good, but if the result is illogical, a SNPS toon does exactly zero extra damage when swinging her magical weapon with magical strength, the rule is bad. Dumb, even.

And what of the Titan Juicer, with a minimum SNPS of 30
And exactly zero magic.

They're M&Ms, absolutely no more magical than the average Juicer or cyborg. Much less magical than a Crazy, who doesn't have SNPS, even with psychic powers.

The Titan does massive MD with pure muscle and metal bones. Still, no more damage for them swinging that massive magic weapon.

[Killer Cyborg]

I really appreciate your explanations @Killer Cyborg, and the thought that went into them. They are "plausible" (KS' favorite word) in context.

Thanks.

My personal issue around this is with WB5 and the Gargoyle nation possessing such advanced... what? Magic? Technology? That only they can create weapons that actually add to SNPS damage.

Well, that wouldn't really describe it.
For one thing the Xiticix weapons work the same way, as do the Bone Weapons the mutants in Madhaven use (iirc).

In all cases the reason why the weapons are different seems to be entirely and simply because whoever wrote that section wrote them that way.
There is no in-game reason for any of it, so it doesn't make in-game sense for those weapons to add supernatural punch damage.

Frankly, I think what happened was that the writer of the Gargoyle weapons simply didn't play by the same rules as KS and/or the other writers.
This happens with Palladium.

I believe this book came out on the heels of CB1 when SNPS was just being introduced. I think this is why so many people gravitate towards it being a proper rule - it wasn't intended to be an exception, it was intended to expand on how SNPS worked. And since then, and RUE's SNPS rule, some people have gone one way, and others have gone the other.

Kind of.
The issues with the Gargoyle Weapon Rules are:
1. We can't be certain whether or not they were intended to represent all weapons, or just gargoyle weapons (for unknown reasons)
2. If they were intended to represent how all weapons were supposed to interact with supernatural PS, it's not clear WHO intended that, whether KS wrote and/or approved of the passages specifically, fully knowing what the implications were for other weapons, or whether somebody else wrote it and it just got past KS's notice.
3. However the rules were meant to apply, as written they only apply to the weapons listed. Compared to the RUE rule (originally from PFRPG2, IIRC) which is written for all weapons (and is the more recent of the two rules, and would trump if there is conflict)

So... okay, timeline.
(Feel free to check the dates here; I might have some wrong)

Rifts came out August 1990
Rifts SB1 came out June 1991
VK came out in July 1991
Rifts Conversion Book came out November 1991
Mutants In Orbit came out March 1992
Atlantis came out September 1992
Triax came out in June 1994 (three years after CB1)
CB2: Pantheons of the Megaverse came out in September 1994.

So timeline wise, it looks like this:
Rifts came out. No "Supernatural PS." Static damage ranges for supernatural creatures (i.e., all dragons do 2d6 MD). No mention of PS enhancing MD weapons in any way.

SB1 came out, and in response to fan questions, KS said that PS damage bonus is SDC, and therefore does not apply to MD weapons like vibro blades. He ALSO says in the same section that "MD bonuses from power armor, bionics, and robotics IS added to the mega-damage total by MDC weapons like vibro blades and hand to hand combat.
He doesn't address supernatural creatures, and doesn't mention supernatural PS (it's still not even a thing).

VK comes out. I've covered the Pogtals already, and the fact that all vampires inflict the same damage by the type of vampire they are, NOT by their PS score. Ditto with the other supernatural creatures in the book.

CB1 comes out. I only have a 5th printing copy (1996) handy, so anybody with a 1st printing can--and should--check to verify if it says the same thing as my copy.
Supernatural PS is introduced for the first time.
CB1 26 says Supernatural beings and creatures of magic, like the dragon, possess inhuman or superhuman strength. Their supernatural aspect gives them an unnatural edge or bonus. Although their PS may be roughly equivalent to a human's strength in relation to overall physical power, the supernatural element of their essence gives them mega-damage strength, endurance, and, in many cases, makes them natural MDC creatures.
Their PS may be roughly equivalent to a human's strength in relation to overall physical power, but the supernatural element of their "essence" gives them mega-damage strength.
Which goes right with my stance, that supernatural PS damage is MD because it's supernatural, NOT because of the actual physical strength.
Note that Gargoyles are statted out for the first time in Rifts in this book, and there is no mention of them stacking punch damage with melee weapons.

MiO comes out, and introduces us to... Insect Supernatural Strength!! The generally forgotten category of Rifts strength!!
Insect Supernatural PS (MiO 41) seems to work the same as normal Supernatural PS damage when it comes to punches.
BUT insects are the first place where we see Supernatural PS punch damage interact with weapons!
It's not described under Insect Supernatural Strength, though; it's described under some of the insects.
Ants (MiO 45), for example, can hurl bolders at people, and the damage is described as: "add 1d6 MD to punch of kick attacks using boulders weighing 100-500 lbs, 2d6 for 600-1000 lbs, 3d6 for 1100-2000 lbs, 5d6 for 2100-3000 lbs."
And Bluebottle Bristle flies add 1d4 MD to their punch damage for their claws (the first time we see that happen).

Atlantis comes out, and while the gargoyle kingdoms are given some stats, there don't seem to be any gargoyle weapons listed there, nor any mention in the book that I'm aware of of any punch damage stacking with any weapon damage.

Triax came out, and gave us the infamous Gargoyle weapons that at the time did appear to be how Palladium wanted all weapons to work; they seemed to set a precedent.
But it's the only time since the Mutant Insects that--AFAIK--we see any kind of weapon damage stack with Supernatural Punch, and with the bugs it was hurled boulders and built-in natural claws.

CB2 comes out, and not only are there no mentions of any gods' weapons stacking with their punch damage in the book, Thor has a special magical belt unique to him that allows him to add his PS damage to MD melee attacks as MD bonuses!
Mjolnir (Thor's hammer) has a damage of 4d6x10 MD (+55 if used with the Belt of Might).
Note that there is mention of his PS damage bonus, but NOT of his Punch damage being added to the mix, which is a conspicuous absence.

[I'm tired, and need to go to bed, but I can pick up the timeline next time. Right now, Triax was World Book 5. I haven't re-skimmed World Book 3: England, or World Book 4: Africa to see if there's anything relevant in there, but I'm fairly certain that if there was--i.e., if there was any mention or indication of supernatural punch damage stacking with MD melee weapons in general--it would have come up in previous discussions on this subject, and I would likely have remembered. Still, people should feel free to look in those books for clues, along with any other books that a came out in the period we're looking at--we might as well be thorough, and flesh things out as best we can.
For now, it still looks to me like either Palladium can't decide what to do, or that different writers have different ideas what to do, but that the main theme is that MD weapons don't stack with punch damage, with some odd exceptions being in the mix such as insect claws/boulders, and gargoyle weapons in Triax.]

[ShadowLogan]

Well, that wouldn't really describe it.
For one thing the Xiticix weapons work the same way, as do the Bone Weapons the mutants in Madhaven use (iirc).

In all cases the reason why the weapons are different seems to be entirely and simply because whoever wrote that section wrote them that way.
There is no in-game reason for any of it, so it doesn't make in-game sense for those weapons to add supernatural punch damage.

Frankly, I think what happened was that the writer of the Gargoyle weapons simply didn't play by the same rules as KS and/or the other writers.
This happens with Palladium.

Re: WB5 specifically KS is the only credited writer for the book, so it seems he is responsible (I can't say to Bone or Xiticix Weapons in their respective WBs if the author is KS or someone else, IIRC an early Rifter article pre-dates WB23 and it did the same thing).

I Will add that there are additional examples of weapons that add weapon damage on top of Punch/kick damage (I could find in my incomplete library, and I'm sure there is stuff I missed):
-WB5 with the G-10/G-11 Gargoyle PA's vibro-claw damage is weapon plus SN PS, the Gargoyle melee weapons (pg210-3) though interestingly not the Kittani Plasma weapons (pg214)
-WB8's Giant Kami Statues (pg42) when using a weapon doing SN PS plus damage
-WB9's HIAR-22 I-Beam Rifle (pg114) and HRP-1 Plasma Rifle (pg115) both come with a Vibro-Axe that adds damage based on SN PS, the Larhold Saber (pg187), the Stone Axe/Hammers (pg55) both do damage + PS (they have SN PS), the Nazca PA (pg59) has magical V-Blades that do damage plus SN PS (the suit PS is fixed IIRC)
-WB10 Super Hide Armor (pg71, either type) when using claws w/SN PS provide bonus damage, the Man Killer, Spike Armor and Vibro-Spiked Armors (pg69-70) can also provide increase damage IF SN PS involved
-WB14 (pg138) has a War Club for the Mountain Giants
-WB16 (pg99-101) the Colossus Automaton's Iron Mace adds to its punch damage
-MercOps has the Mystic Assault Glove (pg152-3) with an electrified punch doing SN PS + damage
-WB17 (pg131-4) the Avenging Angel 'Borg can add vibro-blade damage with its kick, so can the Thunderstorm (pg221-4) it adds vibro-knuckle damage to punches, IINM some of their other 'borgs also have similar features
-WB23 (pg77-81) has an assortment for the 'bugs
-WB31 TX-001 (pg105) and TX-002 (pg106) Shields add damage to Punch (which is Robotic PS), the X-2525 (pg138-41) forearm buzz saws add to punch damage
-DB3 (pg65-7) Warlock Combat Armor's Vibro-Sword does MD
-DB6 Gona'grek (pg120-1) forearm claws add to punch damage
-Bionics Sourcebook has a few implants that do Damage + PS as a factor: retractable Finger blades (pg92 or 41, this might be regular PS damage bonus), Pneumatic Jackhammer Arm (pg91)
-SB1r Golden Eagle Samas (pg131-3) its fingertip claws add to punch damage
-Megaversally there is the stuff in 1E Robotech Bk6 revised from Mecha-Su-dai for Zentreadi to use (Zentreadi melee damage at the time was different, mentioned more for historical than anything relevant here)

I want to say that this is some type of inherent aspect involved that isn't mentioned that allows them to stack damages in such a fashion. It'd be a lot easier if all these examples involved magic, but there are examples of pure tech involved to. These are presented as exceptions to the rule and should not be used as justification to override the intended rule.

[Curbludgeon]

That's some list. Here are a few more, for which some have already been mentioned, and a couple are more generally applicable to Robotic strength.

Phase Sword: DB2 pg 124
Gargoyle weapons: WB5 pp 210-213
Xiticix melee weapons: WB23 pp 77-81
Mutant bone weapons: WB29 pp 81-82
NG melee weapons: WB33 pp 206-208
Crystal Combat Gauntlet: DB15 pg 142
Bionics: Sourcebook 5 et al: Hydraulic Hammer Hand pg 106, Retractable Knuckle Blades pg 93, Pneumatic Punching Jackhammer Arm pg 91 (additional damage on last entry scales differently than punch damage)
Kisentite weapons: SB4
Soul Weapons: WB35 pg 110 do 4d6 or add 1d6 to punch damage, whichever is higher.
Combat Gauntlet in Rifts WB10: Juicer Uprising adds 4 to SN hand to hand damage.
Spell Demon Talons: in DB12pg182 gives talons capable of 3d4+3+SN PS.

[hup7]

First lifting is not related to damage, yes both are related to strength. But it doesn’t follow the same progression nor should it. I will deal with lifting briefly: body matters. You can be strong enough to lift weight, but your arm only has a certain limit before tearing in half – a supernatural MDC creature doesn’t face that limitation (well not unless faced with WAY more force).
And structure is the next point to be made – yes, a human with equivalent strength can punch a wall but their flimsy squishy flesh will crush and tear. An MDC creature can throw way more into it and thus punch a lot harder. So even if you say a human with PS45 can lift the same as a supernatural PS18 they cannot punch as hard – because their structure is not as hard. And no, it doesn’t matter if they have MDC gloves because their hand is then smushing into the glove.
Great list ShadowLogan here are some more (might be some overlap):
WB2 Atlantis: p45 Knuckle spikes; p122 Staff of Eylor; Staff of All Seeing
WB5 Triax: p210 All of them
WB6 South America: p114 Hunter Cat, p134 Minion of Inix, p136 Pincer Warrior, p144 Transformer (more than meets the eye)
WB7 Undersea: p46 Psiren
WB9 SA2: p55 Pacura Red Giants, p61 VBlades, p138 BloodLizard, p145 Psi-Taur, p186 Larhold Weapons

It seems more this is the standard rather than the “few” exceptions.

Lastly are you talking about the Pogtalian Dragon Slayer from SA1 when you say VK? They are a different case altogether.

[Mlp7029]

There are lots of examples of weapon damage plus SN punch damage in Rifts. FYI the substitution of SN punch for weapon damage has been in HU for a long time. I honestly have not seen a single reference to the substitution in any Rifts book that came out after RUE. I have seen lots of weapon damage plus punch damage for robotic strength in Northern Gun which was published after RUE came out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, that wouldn't really describe it.
For one thing the Xiticix weapons work the same way, as do the Bone Weapons the mutants in Madhaven use (iirc).

In all cases the reason why the weapons are different seems to be entirely and simply because whoever wrote that section wrote them that way.
There is no in-game reason for any of it, so it doesn't make in-game sense for those weapons to add supernatural punch damage.

Frankly, I think what happened was that the writer of the Gargoyle weapons simply didn't play by the same rules as KS and/or the other writers.
This happens with Palladium.

Re: WB5 specifically KS is the only credited writer for the book, so it seems he is responsible (I can't say to Bone or Xiticix Weapons in their respective WBs if the author is KS or someone else, IIRC an early Rifter article pre-dates WB23 and it did the same thing).

I would not stake my life on assuming that KS wrote an entire book, even when he's listed as the sole writer.
It is not unreasonable to assume it, but I feel like there are reasons to suspect it's not always an accurate representation.

I Will add that there are additional examples of weapons that add weapon damage on top of Punch/kick damage (I could find in my incomplete library, and I'm sure there is stuff I missed):
-WB5 with the G-10/G-11 Gargoyle PA's vibro-claw damage is weapon plus SN PS, the Gargoyle melee weapons (pg210-3) though interestingly not the Kittani Plasma weapons (pg214)
-WB8's Giant Kami Statues (pg42) when using a weapon doing SN PS plus damage
-WB9's HIAR-22 I-Beam Rifle (pg114) and HRP-1 Plasma Rifle (pg115) both come with a Vibro-Axe that adds damage based on SN PS, the Larhold Saber (pg187), the Stone Axe/Hammers (pg55) both do damage + PS (they have SN PS), the Nazca PA (pg59) has magical V-Blades that do damage plus SN PS (the suit PS is fixed IIRC)
-WB10 Super Hide Armor (pg71, either type) when using claws w/SN PS provide bonus damage, the Man Killer, Spike Armor and Vibro-Spiked Armors (pg69-70) can also provide increase damage IF SN PS involved
-WB14 (pg138) has a War Club for the Mountain Giants
-WB16 (pg99-101) the Colossus Automaton's Iron Mace adds to its punch damage
-MercOps has the Mystic Assault Glove (pg152-3) with an electrified punch doing SN PS + damage
-WB17 (pg131-4) the Avenging Angel 'Borg can add vibro-blade damage with its kick, so can the Thunderstorm (pg221-4) it adds vibro-knuckle damage to punches, IINM some of their other 'borgs also have similar features
-WB23 (pg77-81) has an assortment for the 'bugs
-WB31 TX-001 (pg105) and TX-002 (pg106) Shields add damage to Punch (which is Robotic PS), the X-2525 (pg138-41) forearm buzz saws add to punch damage
-DB3 (pg65-7) Warlock Combat Armor's Vibro-Sword does MD
-DB6 Gona'grek (pg120-1) forearm claws add to punch damage
-Bionics Sourcebook has a few implants that do Damage + PS as a factor: retractable Finger blades (pg92 or 41, this might be regular PS damage bonus), Pneumatic Jackhammer Arm (pg91)
-SB1r Golden Eagle Samas (pg131-3) its fingertip claws add to punch damage
-Megaversally there is the stuff in 1E Robotech Bk6 revised from Mecha-Su-dai for Zentreadi to use (Zentreadi melee damage at the time was different, mentioned more for historical than anything relevant here)

I want to say that this is some type of inherent aspect involved that isn't mentioned that allows them to stack damages in such a fashion. It'd be a lot easier if all these examples involved magic, but there are examples of pure tech involved to. These are presented as exceptions to the rule and should not be used as justification to override the intended rule.

Good list!

[Killer Cyborg]

First lifting is not related to damage, yes both are related to strength. But it doesn’t follow the same progression nor should it. I will deal with lifting briefly: body matters. You can be strong enough to lift weight, but your arm only has a certain limit before tearing in half – a supernatural MDC creature doesn’t face that limitation (well not unless faced with WAY more force).[

And structure is the next point to be made – yes, a human with equivalent strength can punch a wall but their flimsy squishy flesh will crush and tear. An MDC creature can throw way more into it and thus punch a lot harder. So even if you say a human with PS45 can lift the same as a supernatural PS18 they cannot punch as hard – because their structure is not as hard. And no, it doesn’t matter if they have MDC gloves because their hand is then smushing into the glove.

I get what you're saying, but Palladium doesn't pay any attention to such things in their game rules except perhaps in rare exceptions.
In the Rifts Conversion Book, where we're first told that Supernatural Creatures don't follow the same laws of physics as normal people, where we're told that "their PS may be roughly equivalent to a numan's strength in relation to overall physical power" yet inflict vastly higher amounts of damage, etc., also tells us...
CB1 44 The power Extraordinary Physical Strength uses the Supernatural PS Chart to determine punch/kick damage regardless of whether or not the hero throwing those punches is SDC or MDC.
CB1 49 Martial Artists can inflict Mega-Damage with their bare hands and/or feet simply through training, without even using Chi abilities or Martial Arts Powers. Chagi (the kind of kick practice I learned back when I took Tae Kwon Do in high school) "provides a power kick that inflicts 2d6 MD in addition to its usual bonuses."
(Note: That rule is is utter nonsense, of course, but it IS/WAS an official rule made in the same book where Supernatural PS comes up, so it still indicates a serious lack of consideration for the kind of realistic limitations of human flesh that you're describing as if maybe they thought about it when writing the Supernatural PS damage charts and/or lift/carry rules)
CB1 24 Augmented Humans, Mutants, Cyborgs, & Exoskeletons are shown to potentially inflict more damage than a normal human, but it's still vastly lower than the amount of damage inflicted by the SNPS equivalent. At the time CB1 came out, a Full Conversion Borg (MDC creature, just like most Supernatural Critters) with PS 45 can carry 900 lbs, lift 1800 lbs, and can inflict 1d6 MD on a Power Punch (normal punches inflict no MD).
A Supernatural Creature with PS 18 can carry 900 lbs and lift 1800 lbs, and can inflict 1d6 MD on a normal punch, or 2d6 MD on a power punch.
The Borg and the Supernatural Creature can lift the same weight, carry the same weight, but one of them inflicts twice as much damage on a power punch, and roughly 17.6x more damage on a regular punch.
An SDC Crazy with PS 45, by the way, works out just like the Full Conversion Borg: same weights, same damage.
MDC was not considered as a significant factor.

Great list ShadowLogan here are some more (might be some overlap):
WB2 Atlantis: p45 Knuckle spikes; p122 Staff of Eylor; Staff of All Seeing
WB5 Triax: p210 All of them
WB6 South America: p114 Hunter Cat, p134 Minion of Inix, p136 Pincer Warrior, p144 Transformer (more than meets the eye)
WB7 Undersea: p46 Psiren
WB9 SA2: p55 Pacura Red Giants, p61 VBlades, p138 BloodLizard, p145 Psi-Taur, p186 Larhold Weapons

It seems more this is the standard rather than the “few” exceptions.

I disagree.
What we see with the Splugorth Conservators' knuckle spikes is the continuation of a long-running trend in Palladium's games that goes back at least as far as TMNT 1st Edition, where a Slap Glove added +2 to damage with punch attacks.
PUNCH WEAPONS have very often added to punch damage rather than having their own damage rating, and the Conservators' knuckle spikes are following that pattern.
A number of other weapons on the list(s) are as well, in fact.
But in the same breath that Atlantis 45 tells us the damage for Knuckle Spikes is "adds 1d6 MD to punch," it also tells us that the damage for Finger Blades is "2d4 MD," and the damage for Elbow Spikes is "1d6 MD."
Note the utter lack of any mention of punch damage with either of those two non-punching weapons.
I don't see any reason to believe that was an accident or oversight; it seems very much like a specific decision that punch weapons can enhance punch damage, but that punch damage for beings with Supernatural PS do not add to weapon damage.

Lastly are you talking about the Pogtalian Dragon Slayer from SA1 when you say VK? They are a different case altogether.

I'm talking about the Pogtal Dragon Slayers, who are described on pages 150-153 of the original Vampire Kingdoms book, under the description of Bonecruncher, the Strongman for the Night Arcade & Freak Show.
They're also described/statted in SA1 135-136, BUT they're changed for that book.
In fact, the SA1 description is changed in exactly the kind of way to support my thesis that the Pogtal's aura was a prototype for Supernatural Physical Strength when it comes to the interaction of punch damage and hand-held weapons.

VK1 description lists the Pogtal's PS as 5d6+10. There is no mention of them having Supernatural PS because that wasn't a thing yet; being supernatural only affected lift/carry limits when it came to strength, because this book came out before CB1 introduced the concept of "Supernatural Physical Strength," along with the punch damage tables.
Pogtals could have PS of 15-40, but their punch damage was always the same regardless of how strong or how weak they were: 4d6 MD.
The weakest Pogtal in the world would punch for 4d6 MD.
The strongerst Pogtal in the world would punch for 4d6 MD.
Just like the weakest mundane human in the world with a 6d6 MD rune sword would attack with that magic weapon for 6d6 MD, and the strongest mundane human in the world would attack with the same magic weapon for 6d6 MD, because it's the magic doing the damage more than any other factor, NOT the strength of the wielder.
Same deal with Pogtals, only they are the magic weapon in question. They inflict the same magical damage no matter how strong or weak they are.

So VK1 151 says (as I believe I've already quoted):
The additional effect of the mega-damage aura is that the energy field turns ordinary hand-held SDC weapons into MDC extensions of the Pogtal!
Thus a strike from an SDC giant sword, club, dagger, or uprooted tree inflicts the 4d6 MD of a full strength punch from the giant. Damage from energy weapons and vibro-blades is not increased.
The damage from magic weapons is the higher amount of damage; i.e., a magic weapon that inflicts 2d6 MD will inflict the 4d6 MD of the punch, while a magic weapon that inflicts 6d6 MD will inflict 6d6 MD because it is higher than the normal full strength punch..

Compare that text to RUE 286:
Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage (in SDC) or their own PS damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater.

Different words, but they're saying basically the same thing.
Also note that the bolded heading for the quoted text says "Supernatural Damage," NOT "Punch Damage" or "Supernatural Punch Damage" or "Strength Damage" or "Supernatural Strength Damage."
"Supernatural damage," because it's the supernatural that's doing the damage, not the actual strength of the person throwing the punch or wielding the weapon.
It's literally supernatural damage.

Until the Pogtal was written up, there were no rules for a supernatural creature's strength, strength bonus, or punch damage to affect the damage they inflicted with melee weapons of any type.
There were rules in SB1 for robots adding their PS damage to MD melee weapon attacks (later nerfed and discarded), but nothing about supernatural creatures doing it.
It was during the writing of the Pogtal that KS or other Palladium writers first tried to come up with some kind of way for a supernatural creature to use weapons in a way that mattered.
The point of the Pogtal's energy field affecting weapons that way was to provide some reason for these giants to use melee weapons that inflicted less than 4d6 MD, while also letting them use weapons that inflicted more than 4d6 MD without penalty.
If a dragon at this time picked up a tree and hit you with it, there were zero rules allowing that strike to inflict mega-damage; the dragons could inflict MD with their supernatural weapons--teeth, punch, etc.--but not with the power of their physical strength. Same with other supernatural creatures.
The only reason they inflicted MD was because they were magic, not because they were physically strong.

IF physical strength had been the reason why supernatural creatures could inflict mega-damage, then the Pogtals' energy field wouldn't have needed the rules to allow for hand-held weapons to inflict mega-damage, AND their PS attribute score would have affected their punch damage in some way.
The fact that the writers came up with the energy field to explain how a Pogtal could inflict mega-damage without a magical weapon shows that Pogtals and other supernatural creatures could not as a rule inflict mega-damage without magic as a rule.
(Or without something like a vibro-blade which inflicts mega-damage in anybody's hands)

What's important about the Pogtal's Energy Field today is that it gives us an understanding of what the writers were thinking when they first started coming up with ways for supernatural creatures to have a use for melee weapons, and the fact that the net result is the same as the RUE rules for Supernatural PS interacting with melee weapons isn't a coincidence; they're basically the same thing, and work the same way.
The only current advantage of the Pogtal's Energy Field is that it allows them to use SDC weapons without the chance of the weapon breaking.

[ShadowLogan]

It seems more this is the standard rather than the “few” exceptions.

No these are the "few" exceptions to the rule. The raw number of "exceptions" to the rule IS fairly small overall. Just looking at my list there where what 6 or 7 'bot/PA platforms, seems like more than a "few" (literally), but as part of the overall numbers of 'bot/pa platforms that number into the multi-hundreds (at least 300, and that misses stuff over 12 WB/SBs, and non-Rifts lines like RT or Macross2) they would qualify as "few". These are also the exception to the rule as they specifically state to do X + Y, when the rule is you normally do X or Y.

I would not stake my life on assuming that KS wrote an entire book, even when he's listed as the sole writer.
It is not unreasonable to assume it, but I feel like there are reasons to suspect it's not always an accurate representation.

I do not dispute that "ghost writers" could be involved, I merely state who is credited with writing the book. Doesn't KS usually indicate secondary writers for sections in books, or is that a more recent thing?

[Blue_Lion]

The RUE rule is idiotic, but it's the latest rule, so it's official.

Incredibly stupid, but official.

How stupid is it, you ask?

According to RUE, if a magic sword does 6D6 MD and is swung by a mook with a PS of 8, it still inflicts 6-36MD. Pretty good for a normal guy, right? Your crappy PS doesn't even hold you back. WooHoo, Magic!

A Supernatural creature with a 40SNPS (5D6MD punch), who can literally rip open tanks with her bare hands, does 6D6 MD. Exactly the same effect as the mook, and her SNPS adds NOTHING to the damage of this weapon.
Being strong is useless, OK.

Except...

A titan (SNPS 60) who does 1D6x10MD per punch picks up that sword, and does absolutely no more damage than with his fists.

A magic F-ing sword does NOTHING for the Titan.

The RUE rule is stupid.

I think you do not see the reason they set it up that way.
Some people felt that the stacking SN punch + WP damage was munchkin.
The rule was written to appease that mindset after years of people playing the game.

Many things in the game do not follow logic you would expect but that does not mean the rules are stupid. This rule does appear to really just an attempt to address something that was getting OP.

My understanding (may be wrong) but creatures wit SNPS would be adding the bonus damage that normal PS adds to sdc attacks but as MD. That means your titian would add 45 MDC to what every MD mellee weapon or his punch damage which ever is higher. So if that is true your titian would be doing 6d6+45MD with the weapon. (then him using a weapon would give him both higher average damage and higher top end damage.)

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems more this is the standard rather than the “few” exceptions.

No these are the "few" exceptions to the rule. The raw number of "exceptions" to the rule IS fairly small overall. Just looking at my list there where what 6 or 7 'bot/PA platforms, seems like more than a "few" (literally), but as part of the overall numbers of 'bot/pa platforms that number into the multi-hundreds (at least 300, and that misses stuff over 12 WB/SBs, and non-Rifts lines like RT or Macross2) they would qualify as "few". These are also the exception to the rule as they specifically state to do X + Y, when the rule is you normally do X or Y.

I would not stake my life on assuming that KS wrote an entire book, even when he's listed as the sole writer.
It is not unreasonable to assume it, but I feel like there are reasons to suspect it's not always an accurate representation.

I do not dispute that "ghost writers" could be involved, I merely state who is credited with writing the book. Doesn't KS usually indicate secondary writers for sections in books, or is that a more recent thing?

I've never made an in-depth study of any of it, so I can't say.
It's more something I think I've seen out of the corner of my eye over the years, than something I've taken a direct look at, if you get my meaning.

[Killer Cyborg]

The RUE rule is idiotic, but it's the latest rule, so it's official.

Incredibly stupid, but official.

How stupid is it, you ask?

According to RUE, if a magic sword does 6D6 MD and is swung by a mook with a PS of 8, it still inflicts 6-36MD. Pretty good for a normal guy, right? Your crappy PS doesn't even hold you back. WooHoo, Magic!

A Supernatural creature with a 40SNPS (5D6MD punch), who can literally rip open tanks with her bare hands, does 6D6 MD. Exactly the same effect as the mook, and her SNPS adds NOTHING to the damage of this weapon.
Being strong is useless, OK.

Except...

A titan (SNPS 60) who does 1D6x10MD per punch picks up that sword, and does absolutely no more damage than with his fists.

A magic F-ing sword does NOTHING for the Titan.

The RUE rule is stupid.

I think you do not see the reason they set it up that way.
Some people felt that the stacking SN punch + WP damage was munchkin.
The rule was written to appease that mindset after years of people playing the game.

Many things in the game do not follow logic you would expect but that does not mean the rules are stupid. This rule does appear to really just an attempt to address something that was getting OP.

Agreed.
It's possible that KS himself deliberately created the Gargoyle weapons specifically to show a rule change for how all melee weapons were supposed to interact with Supernatural PS from that point on, but then realized that it made SNPS melee far more powerful than he expected, and he later retracted his decision in RUE.
He seems to to a lot of adjusting here or there in order to appease complaining customers, and I could see both decisions being made on that ground.

I still lean more toward somebody else writing the Gargoyle weapons, or that for some unknown reasons the Gargoyle weapons were intended by KS to work differently than normal weapons, but it's possible he was changing things deliberately both times.
Since most weapons were NOT designed with "adding supernatural punch damage" in mind, he might have made a decision, and later realized it was far more disruptive and unbalancing than expected.

My understanding (may be wrong) but creatures wit SNPS would be adding the bonus damage that normal PS adds to sdc attacks but as MD. That means your titian would add 45 MDC to what every MD mellee weapon or his punch damage which ever is higher. So if that is true your titian would be doing 6d6+45MD with the weapon. (then him using a weapon would give him both higher average damage and higher top end damage.)

The RUE rule says that the PS bonus is added as SDC, so if you attack with a sword for 6d6 MD and your PS damage bonus is +15, then you do 6d6 MD + 15 SDC damage, I believe.

[narcissus]

The RUE rule says that the PS bonus is added as SDC, so if you attack with a sword for 6d6 MD and your PS damage bonus is +15, then you do 6d6 MD + 15 SDC damage, I believe.

This is correct. Dumb, but correct. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182370&sid=3e30018a12aafcf1eaa76bc9f74d06a9#p3109728 .

[drewkitty ~..~]

The RUE rule says that the PS bonus is added as SDC, so if you attack with a sword for 6d6 MD and your PS damage bonus is +15, then you do 6d6 MD + 15 SDC damage, I believe.

This is correct. Dumb, but correct. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182370&sid=3e30018a12aafcf1eaa76bc9f74d06a9#p3109728 .

It's only dumb when you are talking about it in the MD/MDC games, when doing battle with MDC beings and mecha.

When you move over into SD/SDC games it is not dumb because that PS SD bonus does effect the combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

The RUE rule says that the PS bonus is added as SDC, so if you attack with a sword for 6d6 MD and your PS damage bonus is +15, then you do 6d6 MD + 15 SDC damage, I believe.

This is correct. Dumb, but correct. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182370&sid=3e30018a12aafcf1eaa76bc9f74d06a9#p3109728 .

It's only dumb when you are talking about it in the MD/MDC games, when doing battle with MDC beings and mecha.

When you move over into SD/SDC games it is not dumb because that PS SD bonus does effect the combat.

Agreed.

I wouldn't call it "dumb," because it's actually a rule that's consistent in both MD and SDC settings; you get your PS damage bonus either way, it just doesn't matter much if you're physically strong when you're wielding a sword that already packs mega-damage force.
It's the difference between setting a powerful bomb at somebody's feet and detonating it, versus detonating the bomb while hitting them on the head with it; it's unlikely to make any real difference.

I'd prefer to see more rules like that, rules that function the same way for SDC and Mega-Damage.

Which is one thing I find annoying about the Supernatural Damage Chart in the first place, along with the Robot Damage Chart and so forth; it makes Mega-Damage punches work very differently from SDC punches, which is counter-intuitive.
IF Supernatural creatures get a damage chart where different levels of strength result in rolling different numbers of dice, then normal humans should not get a damage chart where they always punch for 1d4 base damage, with a static bonus on top of that.
And vice-versa; since normal humans already had that punch system in place, it made no real sense for the supernatural or robot punch rules to be any more complicated than "You inflict 1d4 MD + your PS damage bonus in MD."

For that matter, I'd ideally prefer there to be one single chart for punch damage that everybody can fit on, and one single kind of Physical Strength attribute that covers all entities which utilize that attribute.
Instead of having Supernatural PS 18 lift, carry, and punch with much higher numbers than normal PS 18, why the hell not just boost the Supernatural Creature's PS to be high enough to get the kind of numbers you're looking for?
The only answer seems to be "because we'd rather gamers put in a lot of work calculating a character's strength-based capabilities in a dozen different ways, than to end up in a situation where an attribute could reach triple digits."
Well, that and "The Palladium system is just afterthoughts tacked onto afterthoughts, all stacked onto a set of antiquated core rules that were never meant to be this versatile, complex, or specific."

Anyway, of all the rules Palladium has come up with for handling Strength, "adding PS damage as an SDC damage bonus" doesn't really rank on my list of complaints.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The RUE rule says that the PS bonus is added as SDC, so if you attack with a sword for 6d6 MD and your PS damage bonus is +15, then you do 6d6 MD + 15 SDC damage, I believe.

This is correct. Dumb, but correct. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182370&sid=3e30018a12aafcf1eaa76bc9f74d06a9#p3109728 .

There is however magic items in NPC statblocks that say they turn the SDC bonus into MD when they attack. Lord Coake's statblock has one.

So it's clearly intended, but also apparently intended there to be ways to add it anyway.

Which is fine as a balance thing, I think. To decide they want to hide adding PS damage bonus as MDC behind an equipment wall.

[Blue_Lion]

The RUE rule says that the PS bonus is added as SDC, so if you attack with a sword for 6d6 MD and your PS damage bonus is +15, then you do 6d6 MD + 15 SDC damage, I believe.

This is correct. Dumb, but correct. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182370&sid=3e30018a12aafcf1eaa76bc9f74d06a9#p3109728 .

There is however magic items in NPC statblocks that say they turn the SDC bonus into MD when they attack. Lord Coake's statblock has one.

So it's clearly intended, but also apparently intended there to be ways to add it anyway.

Which is fine as a balance thing, I think. To decide they want to hide adding PS damage bonus as MDC behind an equipment wall.

Equipment and specialized abilities.
Ninjas and superspies -mystic china has an ability that turns SDC damage into MD in a MD setting. Used it on a conversion character once. Was able to kill demons by hitting them with books, the three I used most where The art of war, the book by CS most wanted writer, and the bible.

[The Dark Elf]

TLDR this post but I have one trail of thought.

If you add a spike to a tank track and run me over I dont think the spike is going to create that 1D6 exact damage, the being squashed by a tank overrides it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

TLDR this post but I have one trail of thought.

If you add a spike to a tank track and run me over I dont think the spike is going to create that 1D6 exact damage, the being squashed by a tank overrides it.

I don't see why.

1d6+Squashed is a perfectly valid damage roll, why alter it?

[Jerell]

TLDR this post but I have one trail of thought.

If you add a spike to a tank track and run me over I dont think the spike is going to create that 1D6 exact damage, the being squashed by a tank overrides it.

I can see that. When you're already flat as a pancake, whether it's piercing or straight up crushing, I could see the damage being pretty much the same in game terms.

As for my take, I think the RUE SNPS is workable, and plays okay in game. We can always house rule as GMs to our liking anyway.