Do you think it,s time for 3nd Edition Heroes Unlimited?

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think Hackmaster borrowed some of Palladium goodness since Kev and Jolly are good friends. I think that's where the active defense comes from. Its definitely pretty minutiae based though, and I'm not sure I'd play it, but I do like the running count for initiative.

It started as a parody. That pretty much makes me wary of it.

[Rogerd]

I think Hackmaster borrowed some of Palladium goodness since Kev and Jolly are good friends. I think that's where the active defense comes from. Its definitely pretty minutiae based though, and I'm not sure I'd play it, but I do like the running count for initiative.

It started as a parody. That pretty much makes me wary of it.

Yup I would feel the same way to be honest too

[Rogerd]

The more I sit and think about the Modern Age game play level, the better an idea it seems, but with a little bit of switch around.

Gritty
This is not too dissimilar to the average D100 BRP / Mythras game. Getting stabbed, or shot in the chest is likely to be fatal in most settings without a hospital. Magic can help, but it is likely to be low level (Kull or Conan films) so expect combat to be short. If you do not ambush your opponents, or set traps expect to lose arms and legs in combat.

Some people like this level of play, personally I despise it. I want to play rpg's to escape reality not to immerse in a world as brutal, if not more than the one I live in. It is included here for completeness, although I would never use it.

Pulp x2
For this if you have a set of basic skills, like in DnD & Pathfinder, but also have skill programs. This would let you bespoke your character such that you could play a soldier that with espionage skill program denoting that they have a somewhat spotty past, or they had the opportunity to learn from various other masters etc. You do not need both psychic and magic spell lists, just one regardless of source.

I would also recommend to level the playing field between magic-user and mundane, a set of Extraordinary Training abilities that players can choose from, similar to low level ones from Heroes Unlimited, e.g. Mind-Over-Matter, and a few others kind of like those from Gurps Martial Arts which would be an ideal place to steal ideas from. Essentially, none of the training is magical in any way.

If you wanted a more magical orientat4ed game, then stealing ideas from DnD / Pathfinder class abilities would be ideal. It is dependent upon the game you want of course.

Fantasy OCC: Assassin, Barbarian, Gladiator, Knight, Martial, Monk, Soldier, Magic-User
Modern OCC: Assassin, Hunter, SpecOps, Spy, Vigilante

Hand-to-Hand stuff, well you can dispose of all the different martial art bonus tables, and just keep it simple and basic; Assassin, Martial Arts, Basic, Expert. Not sure you need much more than that.

Magic-Users do not need a gazillion categories for like in DnD or PB. And could be split into Arcane, Mystics, Warlock (Deals) that kind of thing. Again, powers would be more akin to those seen in current SWADE which has successfully also done Pathfinder with spell lists just like Palladium - and very successfully.

Cinematic x 10
At this point you are essentially starting at Arrowverse Oliver Queen level, in that many will either have extensive special training, allowing a transition from either fantasy or modern OOC into something better, kind of like DnD 4e Paragon classes. The extraordinary training is similar to that from the previous, just better.

Special Training: Ancient Master, Shih, Weapon Master
Meta: This could be mutation, eugenics, technology etc.

There is absolutely no room for a Stage Magician, they're useless at this point, and way out of their league.
So many may have taken one of the OOC's to 20th level (or however you wish to tier it) although I would keep it simple: Novice, Expert, Professional, Master. So in this sense, many will be dual classed in some way, having transition from class into another.

Again, powers would be more akin to those seen in current SWADE.

Heroic x100
So you could keep MDC stuff quite easily at heroic level as you are essentially getting to Arrowverse Supergirl / Superman level, or MCU Hulk / Thor / Iron Man.

At this point you need another book for this level of game, but it is mostly going to be powers like in Mythic d6, Prowlers and Paragons, Champions, Mutants and Masterminds. And there needs to be a set of conditions to allow powers to be bespoked, some of these will be power specific and others of a more general nature.

[fbdaury]

There is no need to modify the rules. HU2 has some of the best rules of all the Palladium games and does not need to be rewritten.

Which is just a nice way to say that without the broken-ness of MDC, HU2nd is the least broken of PB's games and I wouldn't even say that - the BTS 2nd rules for skills were excellent and much better than the "one roll determines everything about your character" skill system that HU2nd has.

[Stone Gargoyle]

There is no need to modify the rules. HU2 has some of the best rules of all the Palladium games and does not need to be rewritten.

Which is just a nice way to say that without the broken-ness of MDC, HU2nd is the least broken of PB's games and I wouldn't even say that - the BTS 2nd rules for skills were excellent and much better than the "one roll determines everything about your character" skill system that HU2nd has.

I won't even play any of the games that use MDC.

[Borast]

Stoney...
So...don't use MDC.
Just consider it Super SDC, and convert it anywhere from 10:1 to 100:1.
(I'd also suggest increasing the AR by at least 5...since MDC is, y'know...harder to damage than SDC.)

[Stone Gargoyle]

I just avoid it altogether. There is plenty of material written that is SDC based.

[Sambot]

Most of the games listed as examples of what HU should be, I've never heard of. I have tried Gurps. Didn't like it. I wouldn't mind trying D&D. Don't understand it. HU I understand and like. I especially like that the characters aren't over the top as to be able to see everything happening in this universe and beyond. I know abilities like that are seen as a big advantage but to me its more a liability. How do you process all that information without being completely distracted? The Incredibles actually does a good job showing that all these powers aren't always a good thing. I would also disagree with a one size fits all approach to characters. Not everyone is equal. We're not all Chris Evens, or Robert Downy Jr or Christopher Reeves, or Scarlett Johannsson, or Anne Hathaway. Characters shouldn't be either.

I also like that Palladium's games are different enough to be unique but still similar enough that one can easily cross over from one to another. So I don't think there should be a common rule book. I would like a more updated Conversion Book though. One that'd includes skill changes based on time periods. Digital Photography for modern characters, other types for characters set in other time periods.

[Borast]

Sam - which version of D&D?
Things went seriously downhill with 3rd and later. 4 & 5 are essentialy paper and dice video games.
2nd Ed was easy, as long as you can figure out THAC0 (To Hit Armour Class Zero). I had a friend that couldn't do the math to figure out what AC he'd hit with the roll he made. (i.e.: If your THAC0 is 20, and you rolled a 15, you hit AC:5.)
As for GURPS, I agree, it is math intense...but at least it's not Champions! (Shudder)

[Sambot]

Sam - which version of D&D?
Things went seriously downhill with 3rd and later. 4 & 5 are essentialy paper and dice video games.
2nd Ed was easy, as long as you can figure out THAC0 (To Hit Armour Class Zero). I had a friend that couldn't do the math to figure out what AC he'd hit with the roll he made. (i.e.: If your THAC0 is 20, and you rolled a 15, you hit AC:5.)
As for GURPS, I agree, it is math intense...but at least it's not Champions! (Shudder)

I'm not sure. I'll try to find out when I go to storage today. I haven't tried Champions and if it's worse than Gurps, I'm glad I haven't.

[Sambot]

One of the main books says its the second printing with a date of 2000. There's also a box set that I believe is older but I'm not sure how old do to water damage

[Borast]

5th edition has "Dungeons & Dragons in a beige banner across the top of the book.
4th has "Dungeons & Dragons" in a "medallion" at hte top of the book.

The 4th & 5th ed books I have are so I can figure out how to convert back to 3rd or 2nd ed...if I ever find a group interested, that is!

[Rogerd]

Sam - which version of D&D?
Things went seriously downhill with 3rd and later. 4 & 5 are essentialy paper and dice video games.
As for GURPS, I agree, it is math intense...but at least it's not Champions! (Shudder)

DnD 5e is damn good at the minute, lots of really great stuff coming out that could easily fit into Palladium.

I haven't tried Champions and if it's worse than Gurps, I'm glad I haven't.

Yeah, I find it super maths intensive, although some of the settings are really nice like Atlantean Age etc.

5th edition has "Dungeons & Dragons in a beige banner across the top of the book.
4th has "Dungeons & Dragons" in a "medallion" at hte top of the book.

The 4th & 5th ed books I have are so I can figure out how to convert back to 3rd or 2nd ed...if I ever find a group interested, that is!

DnD 4e is best swapped out for Pathfinder 2e which improves upon 4e in a lot of ways so I am told. I found 4e hard to grokk with so many choices, although the cosmology was a lot better.

[Borast]

DnD 4e is best swapped out for Pathfinder 2e which improves upon 4e in a lot of ways so I am told. I found 4e hard to grokk with so many choices, although the cosmology was a lot better.

Me, when possible, I'll stick with my preference for 2nd ed...and not simply because I have a metre and a half stack of books for it!

The honest only good think I can say about 4 or 5 is they are not 3/3.5!
There is a reason that they had a cartoon in TSR's own magazine showing a dragon as a DM, and still having problems with the rules!

[PapaMambo]

Long time listener, first time caller (well, first time in a long time)

Heroes is a great game. I remember 1st edition and revised fondly. After a great many years, having played a majority of PB's games, I really think the book needs a refresh is all.

Let's face it. This game is a product of a certain time and much of it hasn't aged well. Like Sci-fi authors who choose to write "near future" scenarios, HU has dated technology, dated skills, dated hardware, and dated design. These need to be brought into this century (and beyond).

This can be accomplished easily enough - publish an addendum. A book of errata if you will. Include tables that include all powers from HU2, and the Powers Unlimited books. Include technology that makes sense for the here and now (smartphones anyone?!) Include skills and skill programs that reflect the skills you would need now (web design, etc).

Powers don't necessarily need to be updated as HU really doesn't do Cosmic level heroes well anyway (no Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel etc).

Combat (for me anyway) has always been tedious in EVERY PB game (with the exception of Recon which has always been quick and deadly) and is the one thing that really could use an overhaul.

Everything else is cosmetic. Combat is what needs a major fix.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Combat (for me anyway) has always been tedious in EVERY PB game (with the exception of Recon which has always been quick and deadly) and is the one thing that really could use an overhaul.

Everything else is cosmetic. Combat is what needs a major fix.

I agree that combat needs an overhaul, but redoing the core mechanics would require more than an addendum.

[dataweaver]

I don't think HU needs an overhaul. It certainly doesn't need a point buy system. They just need to streamline it and get all the Rifter material into the relevant categories and make everything easier to find and read. For one thing, I don't think you are going to find someone willing to put in the time rewriting everything as point buy. I know my players already dislike anything too complicated and reliant on numbers, so who will play it?

HU has a point-buy system: the Bio-E that's used by Mutant Animals. And while the monetary budgets that the tech categories get aren't technically “point buy”, they serve the same purpose. As well, while they're not HU, some of the supernatural Palladium gamelines use PPE in a similar manner, letting classes like the Genius or Natural invest PPE into special abilities.

I could see a new edition of HU that provides similar point-buy alternatives for everything that's currently based on random tables — possibly introducing new currencies for different kinds of tables (e.g., Training Points as a replacement for the Education & Skills, Hardware, Mystical Training, Physical Training, and Special Training Categories), or repurpose existing currencies (I could see mystically empowered heroes and ancient masters spending PPE to get their powers; and I could see Bio-E being used to set or adjust Attributes). And some categories might have more than one currency: Aliens might have Bio-E (to represent their alien physiology) and money (to represent their alien tech) while Hardware characters might have “training points” and cash to represent their exotic expertise and special gear.

The point that I see to introducing budgets is to give the players more agency in creating their characters, rather than leaving them at the whim of random rolls. The random rolls can remain in the text for those who like them; they'd just no longer be required.

[The Beast]

I don't think HU needs an overhaul. It certainly doesn't need a point buy system.

I would rather have point-buy for skill selection. I've grown to hate the OCC system, and HU's skill program system is only a marginal improvement.

[dataweaver]

I don't think HU needs an overhaul. It certainly doesn't need a point buy system.

I would rather have point-buy for skill selection. I've grown to hate the OCC system, and HU's skill program system is only a marginal improvement.

I get where you're coming from; though if I were to introduce a “training points” system, I'd keep Skill Programs as part of the mix. I wouldn't go the route of buying all skills individually, though I would include that option in the form of Secondary Skills.

[psiandco]

not only do I agree with the side who says "HELL YEAH!"
but I feel that the whole of Palladium needs to take ideas of "exponential tiers" for the effects of powers, drawn from classic marvel superheroes, (instead of; normal person, psionic boosted person, method augmented person (juicer/borg/etc), to **SUPERNATURAL +MAGICAL**, we go by exponential powers of 10: normans (normal humans) as x10, to psionic strength boost x100, to little forkifts x1,000, to BIG forklifts x10,000, oh damn its a demon x100,000 to Holy shise! it's Godzilla x1,000,000, to "look, up in the sky" x10,000,000, all the way out to "juggles asteroids the size of Connecticut" 1x10^23 (*max human lift multiplied to the 23rd power) for example, with the ability to go "Even bigger" should the fiction change/evolve (*ala "GIGA DAMAGE" of Rifter 91/2). This tier mechanic can also serve as "Damage thresholds" like hit points, then SDC, then Material strength, Then massive sdc, then mega damage, then GIGA capacity, even way the f-- out to "yotta X quadrupa-deca-yotta capacity" of planet killers.
A cleaned up d20 mechanic, a simplified 6 attributes (Agility, Might, Vigor, Brains, Psyche, Charm) three saving throws (Vigor [fortitude], agility [reflex], psyche [will power]), and a unified Perception (as a skill) incorporating "intuitive insight, investigation, perception and initiative". Skills being "attribute+ *proficiency (i.e. *natural aptitude +Training +Experience) with a "skill feat" system [like 2e pathfinder] so that player's can choose their character's special areas of training that not everyone has; for example, many characters should know how to swim, but only those with the skill feat for S.C.U.B.A. can go diving. Many characters can climb a tree, but only those with "Climbing training" can use a harness and ropes for scaling rock faces, or "rappelling " down a skyscraper. Many characters can draw, but only a character with special devotion (a skill feat purchase) can be an artist. Many characters can try to juggle, or try to pick locks, or try to perform sleight of hand... but only those with the "Skill feat" can juggle, can pick locks, can pick pockets, can do stage magician "illusions". Many can try first aid, but only a trained paramedic can do "X", and only a trained Docotor can do "XX", while a master neurosurgeon can do "XXXXXX"...

The "Skill feat" mechanic removes the "overburdening" of the skills with abilities that not everyone should have.
(*it is just a reality, everyone might be able to "drive an automatic car", but not everyone can "make Jumps with a motorcycle")

And please, dear jesus...
PROFESSIONAL EDITING AND GAME DESIGNER TEAMS

[Stone Gargoyle]

not only do I agree with the side who says "HELL YEAH!"
but I feel that the whole of Palladium needs to take ideas of "exponential tiers" for the effects of powers, drawn from classic marvel superheroes, (instead of; normal person, psionic boosted person, method augmented person (juicer/borg/etc), to **SUPERNATURAL +MAGICAL**, we go by exponential powers of 10: normans (normal humans) as x10, to psionic strength boost x100, to little forkifts x1,000, to BIG forklifts x10,000, oh damn its a demon x100,000 to Holy shise! it's Godzilla x1,000,000, to "look, up in the sky" x10,000,000, all the way out to "juggles asteroids the size of Connecticut" 1x10^23 (*max human lift multiplied to the 23rd power) for example, with the ability to go "Even bigger" should the fiction change/evolve (*ala "GIGA DAMAGE" of Rifter 91/2). This tier mechanic can also serve as "Damage thresholds" like hit points, then SDC, then Material strength, Then massive sdc, then mega damage, then GIGA capacity, even way the f-- out to "yotta X quadrupa-deca-yotta capacity" of planet killers.
A cleaned up d20 mechanic, a simplified 6 attributes (Agility, Might, Vigor, Brains, Psyche, Charm) three saving throws (Vigor [fortitude], agility [reflex], psyche [will power]), and a unified Perception (as a skill) incorporating "intuitive insight, investigation, perception and initiative". Skills being "attribute+ *proficiency (i.e. *natural aptitude +Training +Experience) with a "skill feat" system [like 2e pathfinder] so that player's can choose their character's special areas of training that not everyone has; for example, many characters should know how to swim, but only those with the skill feat for S.C.U.B.A. can go diving. Many characters can climb a tree, but only those with "Climbing training" can use a harness and ropes for scaling rock faces, or "rappelling " down a skyscraper. Many characters can draw, but only a character with special devotion (a skill feat purchase) can be an artist. Many characters can try to juggle, or try to pick locks, or try to perform sleight of hand... but only those with the "Skill feat" can juggle, can pick locks, can pick pockets, can do stage magician "illusions". Many can try first aid, but only a trained paramedic can do "X", and only a trained Docotor can do "XX", while a master neurosurgeon can do "XXXXXX"...

The "Skill feat" mechanic removes the "overburdening" of the skills with abilities that not everyone should have.
(*it is just a reality, everyone might be able to "drive an automatic car", but not everyone can "make Jumps with a motorcycle")

And please, dear jesus...
PROFESSIONAL EDITING AND GAME DESIGNER TEAMS

Put quite simply, this will never happen. You're asking for a total rewrite of the game mechanics. Kevin likes his sysem and will never change it as drastically as this.

[psiandco]

how many individual skills do you get? 1 per point of 'Brains".
How many "specialized" skill programs do you get?
Brains Ability score -10.
see how easy that is?

you can pit a "1x10^" tier against a matching tier challenge.
you can limit the amount of specialized "Skill feats" and their area of expertise to a character Class...
i.e. a skill "Psychology", a specialized class "psychiatrist", a Skill feat "prescribe psychological medication"
alternately
a skill "bicycling", a skill feat "ride unicycle", a specialized class "unicycle DAREDEVIL"...

[psiandco]

tiers of skill could go like this: "General education", "Basic Specialization", "extreme specializations", to "EXTREME GENERALIZATIONS".
for example: high school kid/ hobbyist "electronics" could become "computer expert" "robot expert" "automotive electronics expert", then "COMPUTER GENIUS" or "Laser Genius", finally "ELECTRONICS DEITY - ALL"...

another take:
Me can shoot guns,
Me can shoot rifle well
Me am shoot rifles bestus!
ME MASTER UV ALL GUNZ!

another take:
General - first aid (here's a bandaid)
Basic Specialization- Paramedic (install a breathing tube and I.V. hub!)
Expert Specialization- Medical Doctor (can treat a person with 45 bone fractures)
General MASTERY- Medical doctor with multiple specializations (why yes, I can do neurosurgery, and I am on the bleeding edge of prosthetics/cybernetics technology)

Skill feats can require different tiers of "skill X"
General electronics - Me make flashlight! skill feat: Make a crude infra-red laser alarm for a doorway.
Basic specialization- make security devices, skill feat: install security system
Expert specialist- Superior Security Systems, Skill feat: Bank worthy security system
General mastery- Inventor of Security Technologies, skill feat: anti-terrorism technology ninja master....

[psiandco]

Put quite simply, this will never happen. You're asking for a total rewrite of the game mechanics. Kevin likes his system and will never change it as drastically as this.

well, I can fantasize to the fantasy of a "Working" game with as few inconsistencies as possible. restate, "I can dream" can't I?

to borrow something C.S. Louis and J.R.R.Tolkeen may have sed, "well, if no one will write the books we want to read, we will have to write them ourselves"...
its like, ugh... Do I HAVE TO?

[dataweaver]

Well… part of it isn't “do I have to?” but rather “can I?” Siembieda has a reputation for being… fiercely protective of his IP.

[psiandco]

Well… part of it isn't “do I have to?” but rather “can I?” Siembieda has a reputation for being… fiercely protective of his IP.

As he should be. the age of digital media means that there are no "captive audiences" no one tries to "catch" all of the episodes, no one schedules their lives around their favorite entertainment, no one is so involved that they study the details of each episode, or the nuances of each quote...

Today's world is "piracy". new Creators can't get syndicated, no recording contracts, no world wide tours... not until they have a grass roots fan base measured in the millions and not until they make their own "millions". New creators who don't score the miracle of attracting millions of fans (with millions in disposable income)...
simply get ripped of... robbed, and all their work is for nothing. bye bye innovation, no one wants to pay for you...
no one is willing to pay for the next "big thing" in any hobby, entertainment, etc.

hell, this attitude of "Piracy" is now an almost daily event for national news.
"Hey mike, I think I want the TRX-39000 supa sneekaz! when is the next riot?"
"My kid wants calico critters? when is the next riot?"
"I want to look like a rap artist! when is the next riot so can I steal all the wallmart 40$ jewelry"...

there are no new fandoms. there are no new television series. there are no new musical artists.
"Firefly" and "The expanse" syndrome was the last gasp of Science fiction fandoms.

I doubt there will be anymore "new" content. no one can afford to work for nothing, creating with their heart and soul, only to be criticized, mocked, harassed, sued by woke a-hole(s), and on top of it all...

they get stollen from on the scale of national populations.
People whine that 10$ for a book is "TOO MUCH"...
multiply that one person who pirates a copy by say 300,000 and suddenly you have creators like me, who are disabled veterans, working three jobs at the age of 50 and wondering if they will be able to afford rent when they turn 55. I wrote a book. all I got for it was hate and stollen from.

[psiandco]

because of "entitlement" fueled by the age of digital media...
quote me on this, "the whole world has become a third world country."
nothing is sacred. nothing has any value.
not until we somehow END piracy, and END the false attitudes of entitlement.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Put quite simply, this will never happen. You're asking for a total rewrite of the game mechanics. Kevin likes his system and will never change it as drastically as this.

well, I can fantasize to the fantasy of a "Working" game with as few inconsistencies as possible. restate, "I can dream" can't I?

to borrow something C.S. Louis and J.R.R.Tolkeen may have sed, "well, if no one will write the books we want to read, we will have to write them ourselves"...
its like, ugh... Do I HAVE TO?

It sounds like you just want a completely different game. Good luck with that.

[NMI]

Technically, a new edition of HU would become the 4th edition.
There are two editions that are completely different with the blue cover - One is unrevised and uses the original PB ruleset and the second says Revised on the cover and uses what we know as the megaversal system. Then there is the white cover which is for all intents and purposes, is the 3rd edition.

[Glistam]

Technically, a new edition of HU would become the 4th edition.
There are two editions that are completely different with the blue cover - One is unrevised and uses the original PB ruleset and the second says Revised on the cover and uses what we know as the megaversal system. Then there is the white cover which is for all intents and purposes, is the 3rd edition.

I hope they call a new edition "Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition Revised."

[VirusDancer]

Personally, I don't want a 3rd/4th edition of HU - but I would like an Addendum book that addresses some of the errors/typos/missing/etc issues that exist in the various books. Some stuff was answered in the old FAQ. Some stuff gets officially and unofficially answered on the forums. Some stuff was done in the GM Guide, but there needs to be a new book updating things, imho. It doesn't have to be some huge book - I mean, it could be a Rifter size supplement sort of thing. Course, it could look bad putting it out - admitting the issues - the imperfection of the books. Maybe throw in some new content so it's got that additional good going for it, eh?

I mean, I came here looking for an answer about Energy Expulsion: Divine Energy and the damage it does to supernatural and mortal beings of good alignment. The book says +1d4 damage per level. Should that just be 1d4 damage per level? Is something missing from before the +1d4? The intro paragraph does say it does minimal damage to characters of good alignment, so it could be just the 1d4 per level - but it has that +1d4 there leaving me to wonder what was in front of it. Course, there's the whole part in the intro paragraph as well about being able to controlled in increments of 1d6 or 1d8. Does that mean you cannot control the increments of 1d4? We can say obviously that it should be the 1d4/level and you can control the increments of 1d4, but that's not what the book actually says, meh. But yeah, I came looking for that, and I found somebody asking about the Ancient Master Critical Strike. Even HtH: Basic gives you a Critical Strike on a Natural 19-20 at level 6, but the Ancient Master has no bonuses to Critical Strike outside of from behind or surprise.

There are just so many, unfortunately too many, examples of various things like this - maybe answered here and there - that perhaps could be put together into a single collected book of answers, imho. And like I said, maybe include more content - have a front section like the GM's Guide, and then have some additional cool stuff in the rest of the book. Hrmm, an updated skills/education/occupation section could be kind of cool. I don't really feel the need for a complete 3rd/4th edition - but maybe certain aspects could be updated as part of an errata book.

[Grammarsalad]

I think I would like a "revised" 2nd edition. I really think they should incorporate the variant "training" classes from the later Rifters, including the genius from pu2 (all with some tweaking and additions), and I think the Hardware class needs a rewrite along the same lines (and, along with bionics and robotics, with updated tech, etc.)

Oh, the same with the Rifter Super Soldier. That was pretty cool.

I don't really care for the eugenics and gestalt categories, but I'm sure it would have those as well. Which is fine

[killgore444]

I'd kind of like to see a new edition. but at the same time, every time a game does come out with a new edition, it seems to take what I liked and ruin it, while doubling down on the things I dislike, all while adding new, even more poorly considered things that make it worse. So on the whole, unless I was one of the writers (fat chance, I'd argue with Kevin to much), I'm generally against it. Just use house rules.

[Sambot]

5th edition has "Dungeons & Dragons in a beige banner across the top of the book.
4th has "Dungeons & Dragons" in a "medallion" at hte top of the book.

The 4th & 5th ed books I have are so I can figure out how to convert back to 3rd or 2nd ed...if I ever find a group interested, that is!

I'm not sure how to tell the difference in banners.

Sam - which version of D&D?
Things went seriously downhill with 3rd and later. 4 & 5 are essentialy paper and dice video games.
As for GURPS, I agree, it is math intense...but at least it's not Champions! (Shudder)

DnD 5e is damn good at the minute, lots of really great stuff coming out that could easily fit into Palladium.

I haven't tried Champions and if it's worse than Gurps, I'm glad I haven't.

Yeah, I find it super maths intensive, although some of the settings are really nice like Atlantean Age etc.

5th edition has "Dungeons & Dragons in a beige banner across the top of the book.
4th has "Dungeons & Dragons" in a "medallion" at hte top of the book.

The 4th & 5th ed books I have are so I can figure out how to convert back to 3rd or 2nd ed...if I ever find a group interested, that is!

DnD 4e is best swapped out for Pathfinder 2e which improves upon 4e in a lot of ways so I am told. I found 4e hard to grokk with so many choices, although the cosmology was a lot better.

I've heard Pathfinder is good but I haven't tried. If it's like D&D I'd need help. With the way WotC has been treating fans lately, I'm not in a hurry to try.

[Sambot]

I think I would like a "revised" 2nd edition. I really think they should incorporate the variant "training" classes from the later Rifters, including the genius from pu2 (all with some tweaking and additions), and I think the Hardware class needs a rewrite along the same lines (and, along with bionics and robotics, with updated tech, etc.)

Oh, the same with the Rifter Super Soldier. That was pretty cool.

I don't really care for the eugenics and gestalt categories, but I'm sure it would have those as well. Which is fine

Maybe not a revised but at least a corrected printing.

It would be cool if all those things were in one book but I think it'd be too much with the core book. Maybe an expanded book with all the variants in it, as a compliment the core book.

Or to go really wild, a small book for each class of character with all the variants and tech, spells, powers, gear, etc included for that class.

[dataweaver]

5th edition has "Dungeons & Dragons in a beige banner across the top of the book.
4th has "Dungeons & Dragons" in a "medallion" at hte top of the book.

The 4th & 5th ed books I have are so I can figure out how to convert back to 3rd or 2nd ed...if I ever find a group interested, that is!

I'm not sure how to tell the difference in banners.

Sam - which version of D&D?
Things went seriously downhill with 3rd and later. 4 & 5 are essentialy paper and dice video games.
As for GURPS, I agree, it is math intense...but at least it's not Champions! (Shudder)

DnD 5e is damn good at the minute, lots of really great stuff coming out that could easily fit into Palladium.

I haven't tried Champions and if it's worse than Gurps, I'm glad I haven't.

Yeah, I find it super maths intensive, although some of the settings are really nice like Atlantean Age etc.

5th edition has "Dungeons & Dragons in a beige banner across the top of the book.
4th has "Dungeons & Dragons" in a "medallion" at hte top of the book.

The 4th & 5th ed books I have are so I can figure out how to convert back to 3rd or 2nd ed...if I ever find a group interested, that is!

DnD 4e is best swapped out for Pathfinder 2e which improves upon 4e in a lot of ways so I am told. I found 4e hard to grokk with so many choices, although the cosmology was a lot better.

I've heard Pathfinder is good but I haven't tried. If it's like D&D I'd need help. With the way WotC has been treating fans lately, I'm not in a hurry to try.

Pathfinder is made by a rival to WotC. And it's an evolution of D&D3.5 and an alternative to D&D 4e and 5e rather than being anything like D&D 4e.

[Kendragon333]

[It would be cool if all those things were in one book but I think it'd be too much with the core book. Maybe an expanded book with all the variants in it, as a compliment the core book.

Or to go really wild, a small book for each class of character with all the variants and tech, spells, powers, gear, etc included for that class.

That's pretty much how they have been doing it, except it takes so long for them to put out books most people house rule it. A lot of the variants appear as articles in the Rifter also.

[Grammarsalad]

I think I would like a "revised" 2nd edition. I really think they should incorporate the variant "training" classes from the later Rifters, including the genius from pu2 (all with some tweaking and additions), and I think the Hardware class needs a rewrite along the same lines (and, along with bionics and robotics, with updated tech, etc.)

Oh, the same with the Rifter Super Soldier. That was pretty cool.

I don't really care for the eugenics and gestalt categories, but I'm sure it would have those as well. Which is fine

Maybe not a revised but at least a corrected printing.

It would be cool if all those things were in one book but I think it'd be too much with the core book. Maybe an expanded book with all the variants in it, as a compliment the core book.

Or to go really wild, a small book for each class of character with all the variants and tech, spells, powers, gear, etc included for that class.

Really like these ideas.

I guess PU2 is kind of like that, and as Kendragon333 says a lot of it is in the Rifter.

There could be "themed" books as well. I remember seeing the preview description of hardware unlimited had some bionic/robotics stuff as well. Makes sense as the hardware is all about tech.

There could also be a 'training unlimited' as discussed in the other thread here.

There is already powers unlimited and aliens unlimited stuff, so I don't think more is needed there.

Maybe a robotics unlimited as a kind of "sequel" to hardware unlimited, giving hardware characters more toys (and gadget related training characters) but focusing primarily on robotics and bionics.
Edit:
Oh, and maybe a mystic unlimited. Though, maybe Armageddon unlimited covers that? I don't have that book

[dataweaver]

Armageddon Unlimited covers divine and infernal power sources: demon hunters, heroic hellions, several new options for Mystically Bestowed powers, and some new Enchanted Weapon and Enchanted Object options. Frankly, it would have been a good place to introduce Priests as a Power Category, treating them as a divine or infernal variant on Mystic Study.

I could see a “Mystics Unlimited”, which deals with the Doctor Strange/Zatanna concepts as well as psionics and something like the Rifts Mystic, who incorporates both magic and psionics.

Maybe a Japan Unlimited sourcebook which retools Heroes Unlimited to deal with the Super Sentai, Magical Girls, Giant Robots, and Ninja Warriors that are so famous in Japanese culture.

I could get behind a Robots Unlimited; although there's a reason why robots get some coverage in Hardware Unlimited. I've got a thread in the Robotech forum (“A new Mecha game”, or something to that effect) where I detail some things I'd like to see see Palladium Books address in terms of a book dedicated to robotics — which, keep in mind, includes robot vehicles and power armor, not just drones and AIs. I don't particularly care if it's done as a standalone game, as a part of Mechanoid Space, as a Rifts Dimension Book, or as a supplement for Heroes Unlimited; though I recognize that each would emphasize different parts of what I'd like to see.

Finally, how about some sort of Upgrades Unlimited book, dealing with Bionics and Experiments as its core and branching out from there?

[Sambot]

I think I would like a "revised" 2nd edition. I really think they should incorporate the variant "training" classes from the later Rifters, including the genius from pu2 (all with some tweaking and additions), and I think the Hardware class needs a rewrite along the same lines (and, along with bionics and robotics, with updated tech, etc.)

Oh, the same with the Rifter Super Soldier. That was pretty cool.

I don't really care for the eugenics and gestalt categories, but I'm sure it would have those as well. Which is fine

Maybe not a revised but at least a corrected printing.

It would be cool if all those things were in one book but I think it'd be too much with the core book. Maybe an expanded book with all the variants in it, as a compliment the core book.

Or to go really wild, a small book for each class of character with all the variants and tech, spells, powers, gear, etc included for that class.

Really like these ideas.

I guess PU2 is kind of like that, and as Kendragon333 says a lot of it is in the Rifter.

There could be "themed" books as well. I remember seeing the preview description of hardware unlimited had some bionic/robotics stuff as well. Makes sense as the hardware is all about tech.

There could also be a 'training unlimited' as discussed in the other thread here.

There is already powers unlimited and aliens unlimited stuff, so I don't think more is needed there.

Maybe a robotics unlimited as a kind of "sequel" to hardware unlimited, giving hardware characters more toys (and gadget related training characters) but focusing primarily on robotics and bionics.
Edit:
Oh, and maybe a mystic unlimited. Though, maybe Armageddon unlimited covers that? I don't have that book

Armageddon Unlimited covers divine and infernal power sources: demon hunters, heroic hellions, several new options for Mystically Bestowed powers, and some new Enchanted Weapon and Enchanted Object options. Frankly, it would have been a good place to introduce Priests as a Power Category, treating them as a divine or infernal variant on Mystic Study.

I could see a “Mystics Unlimited”, which deals with the Doctor Strange/Zatanna concepts as well as psionics and something like the Rifts Mystic, who incorporates both magic and psionics.

Maybe a Japan Unlimited sourcebook which retools Heroes Unlimited to deal with the Super Sentai, Magical Girls, Giant Robots, and Ninja Warriors that are so famous in Japanese culture.

I could get behind a Robots Unlimited; although there's a reason why robots get some coverage in Hardware Unlimited. I've got a thread in the Robotech forum (“A new Mecha game”, or something to that effect) where I detail some things I'd like to see see Palladium Books address in terms of a book dedicated to robotics — which, keep in mind, includes robot vehicles and power armor, not just drones and AIs. I don't particularly care if it's done as a standalone game, as a part of Mechanoid Space, as a Rifts Dimension Book, or as a supplement for Heroes Unlimited; though I recognize that each would emphasize different parts of what I'd like to see.

Finally, how about some sort of Upgrades Unlimited book, dealing with Bionics and Experiments as its core and branching out from there?

Powers Unlimited is what I had in mind when I mentioned a book for each class. I think a lot of categories could get their own books using existing material. Although new material is always good. Just add some conversion notes and it's good.

[dataweaver]

Frankly, while I'm glad that HU had such a diverse set of Power Categories, I find it somewhat ironic that only two of them primarily feature characters with honest to goodness Super Abilities (Experiments and Mutants), and only two of the others include Super Abilities as options (Aliens and Magic). All of the others — the Bionics, Hardware, Physical Training, Psionics, Robotics, and Special Training — are each basically just doing their own thing.

I sometimes wonder if a third edition should maybe focus more exclusively on the Super Abilities, and shunt the tech, training, and mysticism into supplements: to the extent that they show up in the 3e core book at all, they do so in a manner that's directly related to Super-Abilities: 3e cybernetics become implants that induce, modify, or suppress Super Abilities. Enchanted Objects that grant or duplicate Super Abilities exist; but so do “Super-Science Gadgets”: there should be something like the Psi-Mechanic from Beyond the Supernatural or the Techno-Wizard from Rifts, but with Super Abilities instead of Psionic Powers or Magic Spells. And if there's anything like Hardware or Physical/Special Training in the core book, it should be similar to the Natural/Genius from Beyond the Supernatural or Nightbane's Between the Shadows, but with the various Special Abilities replaced by access to a limited selection of Super Abilities (with the Mega-Hero version amping it up to cover the likes of Superman and the Flash).

Replace the existing Power Categories in the core book with Power Categories organized around types of Super Abilities, similar to how PCCs are set up in Beyond the Supernatural or Psyscape. Things like the Augment (i.e., the aforementioned Natural/Genius, with Super Abilities that mostly represent enhancements of innate human abilities), the Elemental (various Control abilities, starting with but not restricted to Control Elemental Forces), the Morph (shapeshifting, elasticity, size-changing, invisibility, phasing, etc.; if the character's powers center around altering her own body, she's a Morph), the Maker (who can incorporate powers into items), and the Meta (whose powers involve messing with other people's powers: negation, theft, copying, or boosting others' Super Abilities).

Maybe even include an option for anyone to have one or two Minor Super Abilities regardless of character class, similar to how Rifts allows anyone to have a handful of minor psionic powers, letting you do a setting kind of like My Hero Academia where superpowers are widespread.

[Grammarsalad]

While I do think there should be a place for non-super-powered heroes in the main book, I do like a few of these suggestions.

I have been restructuring the entire thing, as ya do. Rather than have ancestry tangled up with power category, I have it so you select "race" separate from power category. Basically, you select ancestry, background, profession, and then power category. Ancestry plays a strong determining role as to what you can select for the others.

Anyway, two race/ancestry choices are alien and mutant. The former can grant a minor power or two depending on what alien you select, while all mutants have 1 (or 2, I haven't decided) minor powers.

As for power categories, I haven't decided yet, but yes, I'm still having training, hardware, bionic, robotic heroes, etc. but also have supers based on power types (specifically for major powers--they can still pick any minor power). It's still in flux, but I'm thinking of having elementalists (control and aps types), vitalists (super strong/tough/fast, etc types), mmm, I like that morph type, maybe aps could go there instead of elemental, and, uhh, others. It'll probably never get done, but it's fun to tinker.

[dataweaver]

One reason I'm suggesting taking training, tech, and mysticism out of the core book is page count. 2e ended up being huge, in no small part because it had to cover so much besides just Super Abilities. 14 pages for Bionics, 23 pages for Hardware, 14 pages for Magic plus 5 pages for its mechanics and another 20 pages for Spells, 14 pages for Mutant Animals, 3 pages for Psionics plus 18 pages for Psionic Powers, 19 pages for Robotics, and 14 pages between Physical and Special Training: that's 144 pages devoted to Power Categories that have almost nothing to do with Super Abilities. (There are about five pages in the Magic Power Category that could be used for characters with Super Abilities.) By contrast, Aliens, Experiments, and Mutants (sans Mutant Animals) take up 20 pages, plus 74 pages for Super Abilities.

Which is fine, except that Powers Unlimited 1 has 87 pages of Super Abilities, and Powers Unlimited 3 has another 98 pages of them. And Powers Unlimited 2 also has the Empowered, Gestalt, Imbued, Super-Invention, Supersoldier, and Symbiotic Power Categories, all of which tend to be heavily based on Super Abilities. (It also has a couple of pages of additional Super Abilities.) Even if you leave out Eugenics, Immortal, Natural Genius, and Ancient Weapons Master Power Categories entirely and remove the Alternative Types from the Supersoldiers, that's still another 54 pages worth of Power Categories and Super Abilities from Powers Unlimited 2 that would be worthy of inclusion in a Third Edition of Heroes Unlimited. That's 239 pages of new Super Abilities related stuff.

Even ripping out all of the Power Categories from 2e that have nothing to do with Super Abilities, the 3rd edition would still be clocking in at close to 500 pages. Including all of that would kick it up over 600 pages, especially if you also throw in the stuff from Powers Unlimited 2 that I skipped over.

-----

With all that said: if you're willing to accept that 3e is going to dwarf 2e in page count, there are a few rather interesting things you can do. Instead of throwing three separate rulesets together for Aliens, Eugenics, and Mutant Animals, synthesize a new section, probably using Eugenics as its baseline, that lets you create biologically nonhuman characters, with aliens and intelligent animals as subcategories.

I would personally combine Physical Training and Natural Genius into the Augment Power Category that I mentioned earlier, and would give it access to the Enhanced Attribute Minor Super Abilities at a minimum. But more to the point, I'd use the Attributes as an organizing principle for what special abilities the Augment gets: as written, Physical Training leans heavily into powers themed around PS, PP, and PE, while Natural Genius focuses on IQ and ME. I'd throw some Spd related stuff into the Physical Augment section, possibly to the extent of splitting it into a PS/PE section and a PP/Spd section (Might and Mobility?); and I'd add a “Social Master” section into the Mental Augment section focusing on MA and PB related stuff. So: Mental Augments have Brainy and Social subtypes, while Physical Augments have Might and Mobility subtypes.

[Grammarsalad]

A huge book makes me salivate, but I can see how that might be prohibitive. The only thing that makes me hesitate is Palladium's tendency to delay release (staring hard at the non existent magic book for BtS).

Considering that I would prefer the Rifter (i.e. longer) versions of the Special/Physical Training, I can see the point. Another way to do it is to condense everything down a bit.

That is, have a main book that introduces a lot of categories that it expands in supplements. Some examples:

I don't see a need to have mutant animals in the book at all. That could be put in a supplement where you can add a lot more animals, or you can get that from After the Bomb. This expansion would be a good place to put eugenics and gestalt imo.

I think the Hardware class can be condensed into a single class that has the weapons/mechanics categories (seriously, has anybody ever played an electronics Hardware character ever? And if they did, did they feel like they were a contributing member of the party??)

This can be opened up in a Hardware Unlimited book in some interesting way. You could also introduce other training classes in such a book, especially the operative and stage magician, which are largely equipment based. So, you wouldn't need these in the main book

I can see shunting mystic classes completely to a supplement, Mystic Unlimited or what have you. While it's a thing in comics, it's certainly less of a thing than other categories.

I think you can combine robotics and bionics, deciding at creation if you are an cyborg human, a dude in a suit, or an A.I. This could be expended in a Robotics Unlimited supplement.

Imo, you really only need one category for super abilities. It's more the super abilities that make you rather than the category. While they have different origins, experiments and mutants are very similar at the end of the day. Combine them and have a chart that says whether you got your powers from an experiment or you were born a mutant, or some combo. Use a single unusual characteristics and boom.

Aliens and symbiotes, etc. can be it's own supplement, imo. Or, these can also be part of that chart above. So, you got your powers from being alien, or an experiment, or a symbiote, or mutation, or some combo, etc. And one table for unusual/alien characteristics. This could be expanded into however many books you need.

I think super soldiers are interesting enough to be it's own thing, but that could be put in one of those expansions.

I like having a physical training and genius/charisma category as described. That could be pretty cool if done right.

[dataweaver]

On the “only one category for super abilities”, I agree in the sense that we only need one category for Special Training — with subcategories for different kinds. In particular, while I agree that Experiments and Mutants aren't substantially different in the end and differ only in terms of how they got that way, PU2 also adds a couple of “Power Categories” that are definitely centered around Super Abilities but which differ more substantially: in particular, I'm thinking of Imbued Heroes (who gain their powers by ingesting super-drugs) and Super-Inventions (the Super Abilities come from the character's equipment); but the concepts that are featured in the Empowered power category are also something I'd like to see incorporated into the core book.

[Kendragon333]

Heroes Unlimiited is a game that should always be expanding and evolving, so while I agree that the concepts should be expanded and improve, those things can be done as new books adding to the existing game. It does not need a new edition to grow and add new concepts. If it did, we would need a new edition every few years, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

[Grammarsalad]

On the “only one category for super abilities”, I agree in the sense that we only need one category for Special Training — with subcategories for different kinds. In particular, while I agree that Experiments and Mutants aren't substantially different in the end and differ only in terms of how they got that way, PU2 also adds a couple of “Power Categories” that are definitely centered around Super Abilities but which differ more substantially: in particular, I'm thinking of Imbued Heroes (who gain their powers by ingesting super-drugs) and Super-Inventions (the Super Abilities come from the character's equipment); but the concepts that are featured in the Empowered power category are also something I'd like to see incorporated into the core book.

Fair.

Heroes Unlimiited is a game that should always be expanding and evolving, so while I agree that the concepts should be expanded and improve, those things can be done as new books adding to the existing game. It does not need a new edition to grow and add new concepts. If it did, we would need a new edition every few years, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

Good point. I still really want Hardware Unlimited

[dataweaver]

Heroes Unlimiited is a game that should always be expanding and evolving, so while I agree that the concepts should be expanded and improve, those things can be done as new books adding to the existing game. It does not need a new edition to grow and add new concepts. If it did, we would need a new edition every few years, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

When you're adding new Super Abilities, it's not necessary to produce a new edition — although after a while, you might want a Guide to Super Abilities that collects them all in one place, and possibly organized them in a more useful way than “alphabetical”. When you start adding new Power Categories and revising existing ones, then it's time to consider a new edition of the core book. And no, this wouldn't mean “a new edition every few years”; though while the game is expanding and evolving (which, sadly, it isn't right now), I could see a new edition every decade or two.

Realistically, it's never going to happen. I first bought Heroes Unlimited when I was in high school, somewhere around 1987 or 1988; it has been 35 years since then, and I'm 50 years old now. Kevin Siembieda has got to be approaching retirement age by now; and unless he sells the company when he does retire or passes on, that will be the end of all things Palladium Books.

[Grammarsalad]

Heroes Unlimiited is a game that should always be expanding and evolving, so while I agree that the concepts should be expanded and improve, those things can be done as new books adding to the existing game. It does not need a new edition to grow and add new concepts. If it did, we would need a new edition every few years, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

When you're adding new Super Abilities, it's not necessary to produce a new edition — although after a while, you might want a Guide to Super Abilities that collects them all in one place, and possibly organized them in a more useful way than “alphabetical”. When you start adding new Power Categories and revising existing ones, then it's time to consider a new edition of the core book. And no, this wouldn't mean “a new edition every few years”; though while the game is expanding and evolving (which, sadly, it isn't right now), I could see a new edition every decade or two.

Realistically, it's never going to happen. I first bought Heroes Unlimited when I was in high school, somewhere around 1987 or 1988; it has been 35 years since then, and I'm 50 years old now. Kevin Siembieda has got to be approaching retirement age by now; and unless he sells the company when he does retire or passes on, that will be the end of all things Palladium Books.

KS has said that when he retires, he's going to give creative control to (I'm sorry, I forget his name) that new guy he's now partners with. The guy that's been doing savage RIFTS.

I understand that this guy is part of the reason they aren't announcing new projects except when a manuscript is approved. Here's hoping

[dataweaver]

Something else I wouldn't mind seeing would be to break Heroes Unlimited up into several games. We kinda sorta have something like that already, with After the Bomb and Ninjas & Superspies being “HU-adjacent”; but I could see, for example:

1. Reworking Ninjas & Superspies as a broader “action heroes” setting which incorporates its own versions of HU's Training Power Categories (Hardware, Physical Training, and Special Training). As I said, it already kind of does that: the Martial Artist OCCs cover the Ancient Master exceptionally well; the Espionage Agent OCCs cover the Secret Operative; the Free Agents cover the Super Sleuth; and the Gizmoteers cover the Hardware Power Category. It wouldn't take much to cover the rest, and perhaps more: I could, for example, see something like the Supersoldiers and Ancient Weapons Masters from Powers Unlimited 2 ending up here, as well as First Responders.

2. Doing a sci-fi setting that features Robots, Cyborgs, Genetic Engineering, and Aliens: basically, a reworking of Aliens Unlimited and Galaxy Guide as a stand-alone game that focuses more exclusively on tech: it would not have any rules for anything having to do with Magic, Psionics, or Super Abilities. It's not (necessarily) that the setting excludes these things; it's more that it's “agnostic” about them. See below. I'd also treat this as a kind of replacement for the Robotech RPG by reworking the Robotics rules to be more friendly to Robot Vehicles and Power Armor, as well as to the notion of Variable Configurations.

3. Reworking Heroes Unlimited to be much more focused on Super Abilities, with the default assumption being that every player character has them. No mention of Aliens, Bionics, Hardware, Magic, Psionics, Robotics, or Special Training; and Physical Training gets replaced by a Savant Power Category. Like the last one, it's not that the setting would exclude these things; it just wouldn't address them — again, see below. But there would also be more Power Categories such as most of those found in Powers Unlimited 2.

4. Publishing a “Heroes Unlimited Conversion Guide” that deals with how to incorporate elements of other Palladium Books games into the Heroes Unlimited setting, and vice versa: primarily Ninjas & Superspies, whatever the stand-alone version of Aliens Unlimited ends up being called, After the Bomb, and Beyond the Supernatural. In the latter case, one point to be made would be that Super Abilities are considered to be “Supernatural” for the purpose of BTS 2e's Proximity Equals Power rule; so psychics going up against supervillains typically get the same kind of boost that they'd get when going up against Greater Demons. I could also see it touching upon other gamelines like Palladium Fantasy, Nightbane, and Splicers; though those would be noted as exceptionally rare settings to borrow from. Finally, this book is where I'd put the Immortal Power Category from Powers Unlimited 2.