Please, just don't do this. Cancel '22

[ITWastrel]

I bought my blue-cover Rifts book in 1990 or so. I had been playing AD&D, Some G.U.R.P.S., and a little Marvel Super heroes RPG, the one from TSR, the good one.

I was wandering the bookshop, picking up some dice with a buddy, and saw the dragon with a visor, coming out of a rift.
I picked it up, the guy behind the counter said "that's from the TMNT RPG guys."
I almost put it down.
I didn't.
We gave it a shot, and 30+ years later, I still play. I've even enjoyed TMNT.

I love PB. Remember that.

I don't love what PB has planned. The "open house" PB has planned for the height of a pandemic is a reckless and unnecessary disregard for public health, and specifically for the health of PB staff and fans.

The United States is in the middle of an unprecedented health emergency. Hospitals are overburdened. Michigan, specifically, just hit it's highest ever record number of cases, and their rolling average has plateaued at 35,000 cases per day, the highest rate of the entire pandemic.

The latest RECORD HIGH wave of infections, hospitalizations, and deaths should be enough warning, as in January we were hitting a million cases a day or more. Over 1.3 mil once, if I recall correctly.

In January 2022. Over a MILLION a DAY.

That's not counting me. I did at-home tests, nobody records those.
I got it in December. Triple vaxxed, Covid didn't care. It walked right through Pfizer like it wasn't there and put me on my rear for a week. I isolated, went nowhere, watched TV and coughed.

I'm lucky.

In January a friend lost his wife to Covid. She died on the respirator after four weeks. She was 50.
He died two weeks later. He had the Covid, didn't go to hospital. They found him in their bed, his head on her shirt instead of a pillow. He was 55.

My wife's uncle, on a respirator, unvaxxed, not likely to wake up.
His roommate died earlier this year. Covid.



I know PB is a responsible company, they seem to care about their players.

I know the PBOH is an expenditure for PB, and cancelling would probably be expensive.

I know this virus is a killer. A cold, heartless murderer that took my friends, my family, and over 5.63 MILLION other people.

I also know that a super-spreader event during the height of a lethal pandemic is a VERY VERY VERY bad idea. People could die.

Real people, real PB fans or their families, could die.


There are a couple empty chairs at my game night. The guy who once (on a technopath, with skills) shot the bomb instead of disarming it will not be reprising his toons. Neither will the druid who not only befriended every animal, but made it her mission to liberate every house pet, farm animal, and barn rat ("and organize an UPRISING!") she came across.


Please cancel this event. We don't need more empty chairs.

[Soldier of Od]

Hi ITWastrel. Firstly, thank you for your concern, and I do genuinely sympathise with your losses and the losses many of us have experienced.

I would like to begin my response by making it clear that I am also concerned about Covid, and that I am most definitely not the kind of person that dismisses it all as unimportant or (unbelievably) as a hoax, or that we can just ignore facts so that “everyone can go back to normal”. I spent sixteen months shut in my house because I refused to expose myself to the dangers that everyone else, it seemed, couldn’t care less about.

Then I had to go back to work. It was a dramatic change that I found extremely troubling and stressful given the climate at the time. However, what was at the time terrifying has now become ordinary, and, due to precautionary measures taken, instances of Covid infection at my place of work are thankfully very low.

Now, recorded Covid cases are the highest they’ve ever been (I know that this is partly due to the fact that so many more people are testing, so more cases are recorded, but I do not wish to use that as an excuse to dismiss the facts that can be ascertained beyond this disparity in data), but hospitalisations are lower and deaths are lower than ever. This is a really important distinction. This reduction is primarily due to the huge number of people who have been vaccinated against Covid. Vaccinations are obviously not the answer to everything, but they do clearly have a hugely positive impact on both hospitalisations and deaths, which at the end of the day are the most important things.

You were triple vaccinated (as am I), but you still got Covid – and survived. That is the difference. Who knows what would have happened if you had not been? Did Covid “walk right through Pfizer”? Or did Pfizer mean that you spent a week coughing in front of the TV instead of dying in hospital? I don't know, and obviously we’ll never know for sure, but statistics indicate that, for the most part, it is the people who have not been vaccinated that are dying. (Note: obviously, that is not always the case – in any situation we all have personal experience of a person or instance that went against the statistics – that is how statistics work! Even if we know 20 vaccinated people who died of Covid that does not mean the statistics are wrong, it just means that our own personal experience of it does not represent that of the rest of the world. Not everyone falls into the middle ground of every statistical analysis).

Even since most of the restrictions have been lifted, I have been out socially (to the pub) only twice in the last two years, and I have not been anywhere else other than home, work, the local supermarket and my brother’s house. We returned to face-to-face roleplaying in October last year, after an eighteen-month hiatus. I wear facemasks whenever I am in public, even though it is no longer required by law. I am still cautious about Covid to say the least and do not want to make light of anyone else’s concerns.

Attending the Open House is the biggest Covid related event/decision I have had to make so far, and, although the Palladium Open House is a large event compared to me and three friends round someone’s house, it is tiny compared to the countless conventions, concerts, sports and other such events continuing to go ahead even in such troubling times. But, while it is certainly far from over (and probably never will be), we are not “at the height” of a pandemic; we are experiencing an easing of the pandemic, where deaths, if not cases, are getting fewer and fewer.

Rightly or wrongly, we have reached a stage in the pandemic where, due to the dramatic reduction in hospitalisations and deaths, it is now considered acceptable by many to leave it to individuals to assess their own risk instead of governments and/or organisations to order people to stay at home. The Palladium Open House is, as you state, “unnecessary” – anyone who turns up will have done so because they have chosen to – no-one there is forced to go be there for unavoidable reasons (like “I have to visit the hospital because of an accident or illness” or “I need to visit the store to buy milk for my baby”). It is their choice to take the risk, so at least my decision to attend will not impact on any innocent bystanders, as it might when I walk down the street or enter a shop. That is not to say it doesn't matter, or I don't need to consider those other people, just that we are all in the same boat. I plan to do my best to ensure that I don’t have Covid, and that if I have it unknowingly, will not spread it to others. I hope and expect others to behave in the same way.

I am concerned but hopeful that this small-scale event will see little in the way of spreading this disease, provided that people are responsible enough to get vaccinated, and take precautions while they are there. I would welcome it if Palladium Books were to insist on measures such as mask wearing, track-and-trace apps, provision and frequent use of hand sanitizer (and that Palladium polices all of these things), ensuring decent airflow, and insisting that no-one can enter the building without demonstrating a negative Covid test. To be honest, anyone who turns up at the Palladium Open House without having first taken a Covid test is a massive ******** anyway – it is something we should all be doing in all such circumstances, whether required to or not.

I appreciate and understand your concern, but I really don’t think that this little event will a huge issue for Covid infection as a whole, considering what else is happening in the world. If I did, I would not attend. I feel that it is at least as risky for me to turn up for work every day as it is to attend the Open House. We should definitely all do our bit, but I believe we can continue to gather together at the Open House if we choose to do it in as responsible a manner as possible.

[ITWastrel]

Vaccinated people, like me, like you, don't have much to worry about.

This wave is receding.

IF done correctly, the PBOH can be safer, but that requires everyone to do their parts, and for the company to take great care and responsibility.

These are all true.


If EVERYONE is vaxxed, and ALL the rules are followed, and EVERYONE is tested, sure, perfectly safe.

Not everyone will be vaxxed. Not everyone will test. Some will test, be positive, and still go. They paid for tickets, and humans are, as a rule, not good people.

Given the current record infection rate, someone WILL have Covid. People WILL be infected.

And I guarantee you, people are still dying from this.


Given that this event is optional, superfluous, and absolutely unnecessary, why take the risk, as a company, holding it? Why put real people in real danger?

Who profits from risking lives?

[Soldier of Od]

You are right, of course - I won't argue any of those points.

I have done MUCH fewer of the things I used to do before Covid. We all have. The risks have been too great and it is just not worth it. But have also done a few things I didn't need to do. I think we've all done that too. Did I need to go to the pub those times? No, but I missed going out with my mates like we used to and risked it anyway. Did I need to have my elderly in-laws over for Christmas dinner? No, but we were careful and we risked it anyway. Did I need to return to roleplaying? No, but... well, we all feel the same about role-playing

It is all about a risk/reward balance.

I want to see the new Spiderman film. But I haven't gone, because I don't want to risk being in the cinema with other people. Is the cinema safer than the POH? Yes, probably, but I can always wait until Spiderman comes out on DVD or Disney+ or whatever. It's not worth it, even if the risk is smaller. For me, the Palladium Open House is worth the risk - and I will do what I can to minimise said risk. The risk is greater, but so is the reward. And the risk is much smaller than, say, going to a sports stadium, a convention, or a major pop concert.

[Alpha 11]

Vaccinated people, like me, like you, don't have much to worry about.

This wave is receding.

IF done correctly, the PBOH can be safer, but that requires everyone to do their parts, and for the company to take great care and responsibility.

These are all true.


If EVERYONE is vaxxed, and ALL the rules are followed, and EVERYONE is tested, sure, perfectly safe.

Not everyone will be vaxxed. Not everyone will test. Some will test, be positive, and still go. They paid for tickets, and humans are, as a rule, not good people.

Given the current record infection rate, someone WILL have Covid. People WILL be infected.

And I guarantee you, people are still dying from this.


Given that this event is optional, superfluous, and absolutely unnecessary, why take the risk, as a company, holding it? Why put real people in real danger?

Who profits from risking lives?

Another way I've heard to bring down the risk, is well ventilation. This bug doesn't like moving air. If anyone from Palladium is reading these, get some big fans, and have them going at all times. I've not heard of any large outbreaks at all via airplanes, because they are well ventilated. And some other good news, if it turns out to be true, is that, if you look at the history of pandemics, they seem to last around 3 years, and have 3 or 4 waves in that time. We are in the 3rd year, and this is the 3rd wave, so I say we are on the back end of this, and there is light at the end of the tunnel. Lastly, we can't live in fear. I won't let this rule my life. You shouldn't let it rule you. You or I could die in a car crash tomarrow. We could get food poising and die tomarrow. We take risks every day. Don't let this rule you. And there are a bunch of ways to combat this now. One of the best of heard of is monoclonal antibody. Expessily if taken early, this stuff seems to have an outstanding success rate. I'm talking about as little as 24 hrs. to a couple of days, and people are back to normal. (Now we just need to get enough for everyone to use.) I've also heard taking Vitamen C, D, and Zink helps combat it once you get it. I've heard of other things as well that help in combating this. So please don't despair. I think we will see the end of this soon, and it will be just another "cold" in a year of less. Just look at all the others that have done the same thing.

[Warshield73]

Not everyone will be vaxxed. Not everyone will test. Some will test, be positive, and still go. They paid for tickets, and humans are, as a rule, not good people.

No truer words have ever been spoken, or to quote the great Douglas Adams "To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem."

Right now I just don't see point on the horizon where this pandemic is going to recede enough to have risk free gatherings. If things were still locked down and people were still working from home in large numbers I would say postpone and try again next year but with our everything open and crappy vaccination rate we will never have this.

I do have one complaint and that is no vaccine requirement. I understand it may be difficult and lots of people purchased their tickets before the requirement, but it would still be best to require proof of vaccination.

[Alpha 11]

Not everyone will be vaxxed. Not everyone will test. Some will test, be positive, and still go. They paid for tickets, and humans are, as a rule, not good people.

No truer words have ever been spoken, or to quote the great Douglas Adams "To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem."

Right now I just don't see point on the horizon where this pandemic is going to recede enough to have risk free gatherings. If things were still locked down and people were still working from home in large numbers I would say postpone and try again next year but with our everything open and crappy vaccination rate we will never have this.

I do have one complaint and that is no vaccine requirement. I understand it may be difficult and lots of people purchased their tickets before the requirement, but it would still be best to require proof of vaccination.

Just so you know, I just went to a collage hocky game, and they don't require those, and I'd believe never did, and nothing has happened so far. And we will be free of this. Its called it becoming like the everyday flue. That is what happen to all the other pandemics in the past.

[ITWastrel]

Not everyone will be vaxxed. Not everyone will test. Some will test, be positive, and still go. They paid for tickets, and humans are, as a rule, not good people.

No truer words have ever been spoken, or to quote the great Douglas Adams "To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem."

Right now I just don't see point on the horizon where this pandemic is going to recede enough to have risk free gatherings. If things were still locked down and people were still working from home in large numbers I would say postpone and try again next year but with our everything open and crappy vaccination rate we will never have this.

I do have one complaint and that is no vaccine requirement. I understand it may be difficult and lots of people purchased their tickets before the requirement, but it would still be best to require proof of vaccination.

Just so you know, I just went to a collage hocky game, and they don't require those, and I'd believe never did, and nothing has happened so far. And we will be free of this. Its called it becoming like the everyday flue. That is what happen to all the other pandemics in the past.

Yeah, all we need to do is accept the fact that every year hundreds of thousands of people will just have to die, because it's just like the flu, only much, much deadlier


And because people don't care enough to require masks, won't enforce rules, and yell "Mah Freedumb!" Instead of just doing the right thing, we don't have much choice about that future, either.


Enduring risk is human. Bringing risk in yourself, your families, your coworkers, just to hang out in a book warehouse with other gamers just doesn't seem morally right to me.

[Warshield73]

Just so you know, I just went to a collage hocky game, and they don't require those, and I'd believe never did, and nothing has happened so far. And we will be free of this. Its called it becoming like the everyday flue. That is what happen to all the other pandemics in the past.

First, you make covid sound like a mass shooting or something. It takes weeks to determine super spreaders and that assumes people are honest with health officials about going to college hockey game when they inevitably show up to the overflowing hospitals needing precious bed space.

Second, the flu had been around for centuries you're speaking like influenza just popped up 100 years ago during the Spanish (really originated in Kansas) flu. It takes centuries for a disease like this to become something that is only the 9th leading cause of death in the U.S.

Chickenpox is a great example. For most people who trace ancestry back to Afro-Eurasia it is harmless. To people of Native American ancestry it is, 500 years after this disease probably wiped the largest city in North America, still a major cause of death and one of the leading causes of blindness in children with Native ancestry.

Pollio did not follow the course you talked about. Neither did measles or a host of other diseases. They were wiped out by mass vaccination campaigns. Flu also has no long last side effects, at least not on a mass scale. Long covid is devastating and our healthcare system is completely incapable of dealing with just the increase in juvenile diabetes we're seeing much less the respiratory effects.

Most recent numbers had Covid as the number 3 cause of death in the US. This is misleading though because this one virus is against all cancer, number 2, and all heart disease, number 1. If you add in all viruses or separate out all cancers and heart disease it is number 1 by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it will just get worse and at this point there is nothing to do but try to keep yourself and your family safe and wait for the unvaccinated population to drop below the transmission threshold.

Yeah, all we need to do is accept the fact that every year hundreds of thousands of people will just have to die, because it's just like the flu, only much, much deadlier


And because people don't care enough to require masks, won't enforce rules, and yell "Mah Freedumb!" Instead of just doing the right thing, we don't have much choice about that future, either.


Enduring risk is human. Bringing risk in yourself, your families, your coworkers, just to hang out in a book warehouse with other gamers just doesn't seem morally right to me.

There is no arguing this point and while I probably should be able to answer it I can't. You are 100% correct.

I can only control myself and at this point, especially because I have been caring for an unvaccinated infant, I have been so isolated that I have to take some chances for my own mental health. Over Christmas I got to sit in a room with a few friends for the first time since March 2020. I don't go to work and I need to do something.

I am vaccinated and boosted.
I always wear a mask.
I will be testing once before I go and twice after I return.
This is all I can do.

I think this is why Kevin is going ahead with POH this year. We cannot wait for this large minority of people to care about their fellow human beings and if we wait for them to do so we won't have a POH until Palladium is 60 years old. I understand why people won't go. I hope unvaccinated people don't but there are certain to be a few. This may even lead to some people being infected and it may even lead to someone's death but at this point we can't do anything without taking risks.

[ITWastrel]

I made my case, and everyone has their own acceptable risk, so I'll abide.

I do wish PB would comment on this, though. Their reasoning for holding this hasn't been stated. Are they taking every precaution and requiring compliance with all the rules, or are they going to red hat this and just give the rules lip service? Are there even any Covid rules they will be following?

I've read the event description on the store page. It's got a lot about waiving liability and nothing about masks required. Zero about vaccinations, temperature checks, Social distancing, reduced event capacity (they could only do 300 before the pandemic), or anything else a reasonable person might ask.

Is there some other source of official information y'all have heard that I haven't?

[Goblin-Jack]

I made my case, and everyone has their own acceptable risk, so I'll abide.

I do wish PB would comment on this, though. Their reasoning for holding this hasn't been stated. Are they taking every precaution and requiring compliance with all the rules, or are they going to red hat this and just give the rules lip service? Are there even any Covid rules they will be following?

I've read the event description on the store page. It's got a lot about waiving liability and nothing about masks required. Zero about vaccinations, temperature checks, Social distancing, reduced event capacity (they could only do 300 before the pandemic), or anything else a reasonable person might ask.

Is there some other source of official information y'all have heard that I haven't?

From the Weekly Update email, sent out on 27 January 2022: "We are not requiring proof of vaccination for the POH, but we highly recommend getting vaccinated. We will require everyone attending to wear face masks. Happy to report that, just as we had hoped, Covid cases are already starting to plummet in Michigan and across the country so we should be pretty safe by April, especially inside the spacious and airy Palladium warehouse."

They recommend vaccinating and will require face masks. To my mind, this puts the POH on par with going to a shopping mall, movie theater, grocery store, etc. As you note, we all have our own (definitions of) acceptable risk. Given that masks are required and vaccines are encouraged, we can now all make our own decisions. Hope to see you there.

[Alpha 11]

Not everyone will be vaxxed. Not everyone will test. Some will test, be positive, and still go. They paid for tickets, and humans are, as a rule, not good people.

No truer words have ever been spoken, or to quote the great Douglas Adams "To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem."

Right now I just don't see point on the horizon where this pandemic is going to recede enough to have risk free gatherings. If things were still locked down and people were still working from home in large numbers I would say postpone and try again next year but with our everything open and crappy vaccination rate we will never have this.

I do have one complaint and that is no vaccine requirement. I understand it may be difficult and lots of people purchased their tickets before the requirement, but it would still be best to require proof of vaccination.

Just so you know, I just went to a collage hocky game, and they don't require those, and I'd believe never did, and nothing has happened so far. And we will be free of this. Its called it becoming like the everyday flue. That is what happen to all the other pandemics in the past.

Yeah, all we need to do is accept the fact that every year hundreds of thousands of people will just have to die, because it's just like the flu, only much, much deadlier


And because people don't care enough to require masks, won't enforce rules, and yell "Mah Freedumb!" Instead of just doing the right thing, we don't have much choice about that future, either.


Enduring risk is human. Bringing risk in yourself, your families, your coworkers, just to hang out in a book warehouse with other gamers just doesn't seem morally right to me.

Masks, ya if they are the right kind. This is a micro virus. Cloth masks won't cut it. Even surgical masks don't do much good. Its to small for these to stop them. Only N95's can do the job, and they aren't making them in large numbers and passing them out. I said it is becoming like the flu. Delta was less deadly then the original. The vast majority who got this latest varient, all they got were flue like symptoms. In fact, they very doctor who discovered this verient said she was wandering why people were panicking over this. Speaking of pandamics, it looks like these things last around 3 years, with 3 to 4 waves. Well, we are in the 3rd year, and this is the 3rd wave. So if it sticks to this model, we could be good soon. Next, as to why some aren't getting the vacine, well, the messaging has been so bad, a lot people have stopped listening. All they have said is get the vacine, and not really anything else. They didn't bring out the charts or anything like that, that I can remember anyways, pointing out the pros and cons of getting it. Instead, if anyone complains, or says things went bad for them or people they know, they are shut down. This is backfiring, and making what most likely a little higher problems they might be having with bad reactions to vactions then normal, getting blown up. There is no prominent page on the CDC web site on treatment on what do if you get this, only to basicly go home and twiddle your thumbs, and if it gets to bad, then go to the hospital and most likely put on a vetilater. But what you say, there are treatments for it? Yep, the biggest is monoclonal antibodies. Get this early on, and I've heard nothing but great news on it. With people being fine again in 1 to 3 days after getting this treatment. Taking Vitamens C, D, and Zinc together also seems to help battle it. They are ignoring natural immunity, aka, people who have already gotten it. Studies have been done saying people are WAY better off with natural immunity then people who get the vaccine in combatting the virus. But nooo, shot shot shot! There was also a study done on 800 people who died of this virus. 75% of them had 4+ cormorbilites. One of these being fat/over weight. Again, nothing on losing weight and getting in shape to combat this virus. They are also now ignoring people who can't get the shoot because it will litterally kill them if the get the shot. Lastly, is people getting vilified, and cancled. Anyone in prominence is getting these treatments. When Trump pointed out that Hydroxychloroquine looked like it might help combat this virus, he was vilified and the drug lied about. This thing has been around for like 50 or 60 years, and is so safe, even pregnant women can take it safely. But no, orange man bad. The latest is Joe Rogen. All he was doing was saying what worked for him, but no, they out and out lied, saying he was taking horse de-wormer. He even had someone from the CDC, IIRR, on right after those lies started, and the guy even said, it wasn't a horse de-wormer he took. Real Doctors are afraid to speak out, because they could litterly lose their jobs if they don't "tow the party line". And we all should be REALLY concerned about this, because this is an attack on free speech. Because if we can't talk freely, not getting demonetized and or shut down because we say "the wrong word", or talk about "wrong subject", we will stop being a free country. How far I'm I willing to go? I'm basicly an absolutist when it comes to free speech. As long as you aren't calling for the killing of someone, anything else goes. So that means groups that you hate, and I would hate should be free to say whatever they want on the open squares of this day and age: Youtube, Facebook, etc. I will even give a good example that is happening right now. There is a woman on TikToc that has several degress, and says that ancient Rome aka, the Rome Empire, never existed, and was made up by white men. Crazy right. I don't want her canceled. I want her to be able to talk all she wants on any platform she wants. Don't believe me, here is a guy I follow on Youtube who responded to her and a follow up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMYu37fskE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y8Ywi33KOU
Sorry for the long expo, and the rabbit trail I went on. But there is more at stake here then just the getting the vactine or not. Our very freedom is at stake. I want us all to be able to talk and disagree about anything and everything that we want to with no consequences (and frankly, when the censer people in this day and age, it just magnifices what they were saying and, in my point of view, makes people want to know what they are saying and seek them out, so backfiring one the people who are doing the censering) and to travel and go any place in this great country with no restrictions. And lastly, if you missed it, to point out hope. That there are many ways to combat this virus. That we don't have to fear it. That I, at least, see a light at the end of this tunnel, and that some of what I said will let you see that light also. That it is coming to an end. So lets look and see a brighter tomarrow. Again, sorry to the long expo.

[glitterboy2098]

Alpha 11, i would suggest you read up on masks and how they work. you do not require a N95 only, because the virus is not travelling on its own, it is travelling through moisture droplets. and even cloth masks stop those. although some types work better than others.

this site has a great visualization of it. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... es-ul.html

if people distance properly and wear masks the risk can be reduced heavily. vaccination helps even more.

that said the vaccination rate for the USA is only about 65% fully vaxxed, the 75% statistic is initial dose only. you need both doses for full effect (and with Omicron, you need a booster to maintain the protection.

personally i am concerned about it but as long as PB enforces the masks and distancing, and does things like temperature and symptom checks, i think we'll be ok.

[ITWastrel]

As expected, my wife's uncle has died without ever getting off the respirator.

He was 67.

Y'all do what you do, but this virus kills.

[jaymz]

Considering palladium has made a lot of effort to make it know they will not be liable for anyone getting infected while doing only the bare minimum in regards to safety (masks are the bare minimum) while not apparently reducing the number of attendees or requiring vaccinations.... I have no idea why anyone would risk this since I know at least couple of people who are going that have demonstrated they are firmly on the anti-mask/vax side of things nor would I trust pb to reliably enforce even the mask requirement since those I mention are pretty good fanfriends/supporters of pb.

I hope nothing comes of this, however if anyone gets infected, suffers long covid as a result, or force forbid dies because they attended this event... pb can declare non liability all they like but any of this will literally be on their hands.

[Pepsi Jedi]

My father died from this a year ago.
To act like it's just the flu is beyond stupid. Beyond moronic. It's dangerous. Such stupidity kills people and is killing people to this day.
Yes we are still at the height of the pandemic. But people are being desensitized to it. We're not having 'fewer deaths' we have 'fewer deaths to infections' but with record high infections that still means lots and lots of deaths. Yes. Even in MI. I live in MI. People here are NOT being careful and as pointed out there's just very minimal indication that the open house will have safety precautions.
Like Jaymz I seriously question if they would -enforce- the ones they do have.
Like Jaymz I've noticed strong anti masker/anti -vaxxer people proclaiming they're going.
I do not think Kevin is going to have a stand up knock down fight with these sorts of people and throw them out if they don't wear a mask. There will be a shrug and go "Masks are just suggested. He's ignoring the suggestion". You're here of your own free will if you don't like it YOU can leave.
At that point he already has your money.
Hospitals are full. Of the sick. Of the DYING.
If 1 in 100 people are dying from it but there's hundreds of thousands of people catchign it that's still a lot of death people.

Frankly... have none of you ever been to gaming conventions? ---PRE---- Pandemic they spread sickness and funk like it WAS a Pandemic.

Has there been a convention that ---Palladium--- has gone to in the last ten years that they didn't come home and one or more members of ---their--- staff didn't come down deathly ill to the point where book printing schedules where pushed due to the ("Normal") sickness they contracted at a convention?

It got to be a running joke that conventions Palladium attended put a month to three months on book publishing because it took them weeks to gear up for the convention and weeks to recover from what ever sickness half the staff caught when they DID Go.

And that was ---pre covid---. That was 'The common cold" or 'the flu'.

I'm utterly astounded with Palladium's "Convention to Dramatic Illness" Ratio ----- they----- would even dream of this.

Have none of you ever looked around at a convention? I know it's a stereotype but it's a stereotype for a reason. A large percentage of people at conventions only have a PASSING Acquaintanceship with soap or the concept of bathing. You're going to trust those same people that you recoil from in horror just smelling them walk by, with pandemic level social distancing and safety protocols?

Is everyone NASTY at conventions? No.

Is a sizable percentage, the sort of creature you'd never..... ever..... EVER even tell the address of your house to, much less let them in? Yes......

Again, are you going to trust those sorts with your life?

Are you going to trust an event where masks are just 'suggested' when there's already people that don't belive in Covid saying they're going?

Not me.

That's crazy talk. People talking "Oh well this variant is less deadly....." Getting shot with a 9mm is less deadly than getting shot with a 357, but I'm not eager to roll the dice on either one.

Walking into a gaming convention in a pandemic is loading a gun and spinning the cylinder. You all might get lucky.

Might.

But the fact that it's even being allowed to happen is amazing. As pointed out, numbers don't lie. People WILL Have it at the convention. People WILL catch it at the convention.

Period.

Now the only question is. "Will some of them die"

I very much hope not. I really really very much hope not.

[Goblin-Jack]

My father died from this a year ago.
To act like it's just the flu is beyond stupid. Beyond moronic. It's dangerous. Such stupidity kills people and is killing people to this day.
Yes we are still at the height of the pandemic. But people are being desensitized to it. We're not having 'fewer deaths' we have 'fewer deaths to infections' but with record high infections that still means lots and lots of deaths. Yes. Even in MI. I live in MI. People here are NOT being careful and as pointed out there's just very minimal indication that the open house will have safety precautions.
Like Jaymz I seriously question if they would -enforce- the ones they do have.
Like Jaymz I've noticed strong anti masker/anti -vaxxer people proclaiming they're going.
I do not think Kevin is going to have a stand up knock down fight with these sorts of people and throw them out if they don't wear a mask. There will be a shrug and go "Masks are just suggested. He's ignoring the suggestion". You're here of your own free will if you don't like it YOU can leave.
At that point he already has your money.
Hospitals are full. Of the sick. Of the DYING.
If 1 in 100 people are dying from it but there's hundreds of thousands of people catchign it that's still a lot of death people.

Frankly... have none of you ever been to gaming conventions? ---PRE---- Pandemic they spread sickness and funk like it WAS a Pandemic.

Has there been a convention that ---Palladium--- has gone to in the last ten years that they didn't come home and one or more members of ---their--- staff didn't come down deathly ill to the point where book printing schedules where pushed due to the ("Normal") sickness they contracted at a convention?

It got to be a running joke that conventions Palladium attended put a month to three months on book publishing because it took them weeks to gear up for the convention and weeks to recover from what ever sickness half the staff caught when they DID Go.

And that was ---pre covid---. That was 'The common cold" or 'the flu'.

I'm utterly astounded with Palladium's "Convention to Dramatic Illness" Ratio ----- they----- would even dream of this.

Have none of you ever looked around at a convention? I know it's a stereotype but it's a stereotype for a reason. A large percentage of people at conventions only have a PASSING Acquaintanceship with soap or the concept of bathing. You're going to trust those same people that you recoil from in horror just smelling them walk by, with pandemic level social distancing and safety protocols?

Is everyone NASTY at conventions? No.

Is a sizable percentage, the sort of creature you'd never..... ever..... EVER even tell the address of your house to, much less let them in? Yes......

Again, are you going to trust those sorts with your life?

Are you going to trust an event where masks are just 'suggested' when there's already people that don't belive in Covid saying they're going?

Not me.

That's crazy talk. People talking "Oh well this variant is less deadly....." Getting shot with a 9mm is less deadly than getting shot with a 357, but I'm not eager to roll the dice on either one.

Walking into a gaming convention in a pandemic is loading a gun and spinning the cylinder. You all might get lucky.

Might.

But the fact that it's even being allowed to happen is amazing. As pointed out, numbers don't lie. People WILL Have it at the convention. People WILL catch it at the convention.

Period.

Now the only question is. "Will some of them die"

I very much hope not. I really really very much hope not.

What is ambiguous about: “We will require everyone attending to wear face masks.”? Palladium/Kevin literally wrote this in the 27 January 2022 weekly update email. If you think Kevin is lying, fine, you have your opinion. But to be clear, I’m fully vaccinated, boosted, going to the POH, and trust Kevin to run his Open House as he has stated in writing that he will. By all means, decide as you see fit. I hope to see you there (not for schadenfreude, which I’m beyond sick of, but rather to focus on the fun that Palladium’s games offer.)

GJ—

[jaymz]

No one mentioned ambiguity.

I said masks are the bare minimum they could do. It's bad enough thats their only real safety measure not to mention plenty of non liability Language on the event page. So no I do not trust, knowing of antimask/vax fanfriends of kevin will be attending, that he will reliably enforce the mask requirement if push comes to shove. Plenty of other larger events have been postponing but this is going ahead? Well good luck. I truly hope you don't end up infected but odds are someone will and THAT will be on pb for holding an event that wasn't necessary.

[ITWastrel]

Zero pushback here from PB, zero response on their own forums, tells me everything I need to know.

If PB does this, they have made their stance clear. Their profits, their warehouse sale weekend, their ego, comes first.

Some of you may die, but that's the sacrifice they're willing to make.

[Pepsi Jedi]

What is ambiguous about: “We will require everyone attending to wear face masks.”? Palladium/Kevin literally wrote this in the 27 January 2022 weekly update email. If you think Kevin is lying, fine, you have your opinion. But to be clear, I’m fully vaccinated, boosted, going to the POH, and trust Kevin to run his Open House as he has stated in writing that he will. By all means, decide as you see fit. I hope to see you there (not for schadenfreude, which I’m beyond sick of, but rather to focus on the fun that Palladium’s games offer.)

GJ—

It's not ambiguous at all. I'm saying straight up 100% I don't think Kevin is going to throw people out if they refuse. Or if they wear a mask past the sign in desk and then kick um off once inside, or at the table. (Which is much more likely)

You act like you've not seen the news or videos about these people. They're not thinkin' right man. They're purposefully going places they KNOW require masks sneaking/getting in then shucking the masks and making huge scenes about calling the cops and stuff when they're told they have to wear a mask or leave. People have been assaulted and even shot. They show up with poster boards, looking like 5th grade science fair projects with print outs of laws taped to them and highlighted which they think (Erronously) Allows them to do what ever they want to do.

I don't think Kevin is going to tackle someone at his age and drag them out in a choke hold. Some massive throat beard starts screaming at him and what not, what's going to happen? Con pause and everyone go out side and wait for cops?

I'm fully vaccinated and boosted too, but not everyone is. Barely more than half are, and people that are anti vaxx and anti mask are already saying they're going.
They're TELLING You they'll be there.

My other points stand as well. Feel free to look back through your emails at the weekly updates for years and years and how often Palladium's own staff come home from Cons totally WRECKED. Books and schedules were routinely pushed for that reason alone. Before the pandemic they'd go to a convention and come back with what ever sort of funk was floating around. Half or more of the staff would come down gravely ill.

And that was before there was an actual pandemic with a highly contagious sickness going around.

How big are tables going to be if each person is 6 feet away from one another? they'd need to be 6 feet wide (Most tables are 2.5) and 12 feet long to have 4 people at the table (One on each 'end' of the table and one across from one another. so you can be 6 feet from the end people and 6 feet from the person across from you.

So are you telling me each group of 4 role players at this convention is going to have 4 standard folding tables set up to sit around? with an extra foot between them? ( Two end to end to be 6 feet from the person in the 'center' and two side by side to have the 6 foot minimum from the people sitting at the middle to be 6 feet away from the person across from them)

And that's for 4 players. Adding in another one or two and you're going to need another pair of folding tables.

I don't see the social distancing working under those circumstances. Pretty much each player would need a 6X3 (2.5) table to pull it off. Even a group of 4 would take up a LARGE amount of room. (More than 4 folding table's worth) how much for groups of 6+? or more than one group?

So they're going to be closer than social distancing standards. How are you going to show maps and what not if you're 12 feet away from the person on the other end of the table and 6 feet away from the closest person? pass them around with garbage grippers? Do it all on roll 20? That would involve everyone there bringing laptops or tablets and if they're playing online they might as well stay home and not risk it.

Which tells you with minimal thought that social distancing won't actually be a thing either. You might get 2 tables pushed together. Whcih means the people on the 'ends' are 6 feet from each other but any one person around them is only a bit over 3 feet from the other.

My -opinion- is that this is a highly irresponsible act that is going to put attendees in danger. It's not a 'need' it's a 'want'. And I've been to conventions. I've seen how people behave there. I've run security for RPG conventions, I can tell you this is a bad idea.

If everything goes 100.000000000000000000% right and people are very lucky... that's great.

But I've met.. you know... humans. And I know that outcome is very very seldom what happens.

[ITWastrel]

From the store page for day tickets:

If you are uncomfortable about attending the POH due to Covid concerns or you are opposed to wearing a face mask (a requirement), please do NOT attend. Let us know by March 15, 2022, to get a refund of your admission tickets. We share your concerns, which is why we are taking reasonable precautions. We strongly suggest vaccinations and a booster shot, but proof of vaccination is not required to attend the POH. Wearing masks at all times, except when eating at designated areas, is required. No exceptions. Please Read the sections on Safety Requirements and Waiver of Liability.

That said, Covid cases have already dropped 70% in Michigan from their peak during the holidays. By spring Covid cases should be very low. The POH takes place inside Palladium’s large, airy warehouse, which should also reduce risk. The 30 foot ceilings and openness, spacing of tables, along with mask wearing and reasonable distancing, will all help to keep us all safe. The use of hand sanitizers and hand washing is encouraged. Weather permitting, we can open up the bay doors to let in fresh air and increase air circulation. See Safety Requirements and Waiver of Liability, below, for more details.

These are all the right things to say, so let's see how they execute.

I'm not going, I attended a funeral on Friday that didn't need to happen. Y'all make your peace.

[jaymz]

I love the repeated reminder of there being a "waiver of liability".

"Everything will be as safe as it can be don't worry BUT we take no responsibility if anyone gets Covid at our event."

[Warshield73]

First I want to say that when I made my post of January 29th I intended it to be my last on this thread as the toxicity and blatant misinformation/lies was something that really belongs in the Sound Off forum not here.

Second, I purchased my tickets for this event as soon as they were available, weekend and VIP, had a reservation at Red Roof Inn and my travel agent...I mean wife...was hunting for the cheapest flight to get me there. Unfortunately now I can't go. We were relying on some relatives to help my wife with our one year old son and they can no longer help. I hate missing a POH, this is only second one I have missed, but I just can't get away.

Just to state clearly, this has nothing to do with Covid, I would be going if this event were a few weeks earlier or later but I just can't do it.

I hope everyone who goes is safe, has a great time, and I really hope they post some stuff on Youtube for those of us who can't go in person.

Zero pushback here from PB, zero response on their own forums, tells me everything I need to know.

If PB does this, they have made their stance clear. Their profits, their warehouse sale weekend, their ego, comes first.

Some of you may die, but that's the sacrifice they're willing to make.

This is grotesque. Truly and completely sick and this post is seriously making me think about using the Foe List for the first time. If you believe this about KS and PB I'm not really sure why you are here. If I thought this about any business I wouldn't have a thing to do with them so...

No one mentioned ambiguity.

I said masks are the bare minimum they could do. It's bad enough thats their only real safety measure not to mention plenty of non liability Language on the event page. So no I do not trust, knowing of antimask/vax fanfriends of kevin will be attending, that he will reliably enforce the mask requirement if push comes to shove. Plenty of other larger events have been postponing but this is going ahead? Well good luck. I truly hope you don't end up infected but odds are someone will and THAT will be on pb for holding an event that wasn't necessary.

I love the repeated reminder of there being a "waiver of liability".

"Everything will be as safe as it can be don't worry BUT we take no responsibility if anyone gets Covid at our event."

jaymz, I normally like what you say here and you have a lot of great PB content that I have used but this is just a bad joke of an argument.

1) They are not doing the least. The least would literally be what most businesses around me do and that is not even suggest a mask. They could even go worse than nothing like CPAC last weekend and forbid masks to be worn.

2) Yes they mention the liability waiver in ever weekly update. They also mention the dates, hotel information, the guest list, the hours, even the fact that hardcover books are still for sale.

Also, if you think this is weird or sinister did you ever go to a hotel pre-pandemic? You know the signs in the lobby or room as well as on your check-in form saying things like not responsible for theft of your property. How about around the pool saying swim at your own risk? Is that part of a plan to drown their customers?

Have you parked in a parking lot or parking deck with all the signs saying not responsible for damage to your car or theft of your property?

I could literally (old definition not figurative) go on for hours here. This is standard. Disclaimers like this are on the doors of stores and malls all over the country. Also, and this is a truly minor point, the people who are going should know the risk, they have agency I promise KS is not forcing people at gunpoint off the streets.

3) They are definitive in the statement that if you don't want to wear a mask get a refund. So, yes I trust them to enforce this. Do I think there will be a few people who push it, probably, but PB has said they will enforce it and I have no reason to doubt that, especially because they do not have to require it in the first place.

Finally, and this is mostly to ITWastrel but still some to jaymz. You act like KS and the rest of the PB staff won't be in the same room breathing the same air. Kevin, to my knowledge, has at least three comorbidities including his age and diabetes. Many other PB personnel have underlying conditions that could exacerbate Covid He is taking more of a risk than most of the attendees.

Also, I just got a refund and the process, I called the office, took 5 minutes. An airline overcharged us during our Christmas travels and it took 6 weeks for them to correct it. Also I expected them to ask if they could give me a PB gift certificate or something, which I would have taken because with me not going to OH I plan to make a monster order on the store once the new Rifter is available.

I understand why some people do not want to attend. For me, it is killing me not to go and I wish I had been able to find a way to make the schedule work.

[ITWastrel]

...

Zero pushback here from PB, zero response on their own forums, tells me everything I need to know.

If PB does this, they have made their stance clear. Their profits, their warehouse sale weekend, their ego, comes first.

Some of you may die, but that's the sacrifice they're willing to make.

This is grotesque. Truly and completely sick and this post is seriously making me think about using the Foe List for the first time. If you believe this about KS and PB I'm not really sure why you are here. If I thought this about any business I wouldn't have a thing to do with them so...

And I would hope that a deadly disease that has literally killed MILLIONS would deter KS and PB from what appears to a warehouse sale with gaming attached.

Never mind all of this, the pandemic is obviously over. Enjoy your weekend, everyone. Never mind the people still dying, still suffering long-haul Covid. I'm sure you're going to be fine.

And if this is disgusting to you, a basic care for humanity and a wish to STOP ATTENDING FUNERALS (If you're counting, I'm at 4 this year), well then use the foe button.

I don't want to offend you with a display of human decency.

[jaymz]

Lol good for you.

And I'm not surprised at your vehement defense of a person who's demonstrated over the last 30 years that unless you are "with" him he doesn't give two shytes about you.

[ITWastrel]

5.

Aunt Cheryl had COPD, she got Covid, she died. She didn't get onto a ventilator, she went too fast. She was 67.

Enjoy your weekend.

[desrocfc]

As much as I was hoping to attend this event, the world events and COVID travel restrictions still in place make this a non-starter for someone like me. I just hope things go well and everyone enjoys themselves.

Cheers.

[Goblin-Jack]

I'm curious, would those of you who advocated for Palladium to cancel the 2022 PoH, also advocate for GenCon to cancel its event this year? They, like Palladium, are also requiring all attendees to wear masks, per the "Convention Health and Safety Policies" in the official notice: https://mailchi.mp/gencon/05012022?e=1ed460def0

[jaymz]

I trust Gencon to enforce it and they have enforced their rules in the past. I've seen a number of pics from attendees of palladium not doing so and attendees milling about maskless.

See the difference? Not to mention it was iterated in this very thread there was doubt palladium would even enforce the barest of minimal rules they put in place. Low and behold, they didn't.

[Goblin-Jack]

I trust Gencon to enforce it and they have enforced their rules in the past. I've seen a number of pics from attendees of palladium not doing so and attendees milling about maskless.

See the difference? Not to mention it was iterated in this very thread there was doubt palladium would even enforce the barest of minimal rules they put in place. Low and behold, they didn't.

I do see your point, Jaymz, thank you for your reply.

[The Dark Elf]

I trust Gencon to enforce it and they have enforced their rules in the past. I've seen a number of pics from attendees of palladium not doing so and attendees milling about maskless.

See the difference? Not to mention it was iterated in this very thread there was doubt palladium would even enforce the barest of minimal rules they put in place. Low and behold, they didn't.

I attended and it was really strict. When people forgot to put their masks back up (usually form just having finished eating) everyone who spotted would tell
them and the issue instantly resolved politely with a little embarrassment on their behalf (we're talking mere seconds without a mask up). Maybe twice I saw this slip occur. They even had people patrolling to check and enforce!

We even had masks on fully on the Monday after to clear up.

I dont know what medium you saw what you did on but I would advocate a 99% of the time it was full masks and I was there for the whole thing and more. Have your opinions on whether it's ok to run an event or not at this time but you're simple wrong about Palladium not enforcing it.

[Goblin-Jack]

I trust Gencon to enforce it and they have enforced their rules in the past. I've seen a number of pics from attendees of palladium not doing so and attendees milling about maskless.

See the difference? Not to mention it was iterated in this very thread there was doubt palladium would even enforce the barest of minimal rules they put in place. Low and behold, they didn't.

I attended and it was really strict. When people forgot to put their masks back up (usually form just having finished eating) everyone who spotted would tell
them and the issue instantly resolved politely with a little embarrassment on their behalf (we're talking mere seconds without a mask up). Maybe twice I saw this slip occur. They even had people patrolling to check and enforce!

We even had masks on fully on the Monday after to clear up.

I dont know what medium you saw what you did on but I would advocate a 99% of the time it was full masks and I was there for the whole thing and more. Have your opinions on whether it's ok to run an event or not at this time but you're simple wrong about Palladium not enforcing it.

My experience duplicates yours, Dark Elf, and I was there a day before VIP night, through the Monday cleanup.

[Jerell]

Just an observation here. For background, I'm a paramedic, working in an ER since 2005, apart from Army Deployments here and there. I was the first to volunteer to go into the hot zone to treat patients at my Hospital ER when it all first started, I was press ganged later to work ICU and ICU overflow, and then straight back to ER, so I feel like I've had an interesting few years to say the least.

I'm writing this just to share my viewpoint, that being the Covid we are facing now, has not been as deadly as when it first appeared. When Covid first hit, I had never seen anything like it, state side, or in my over seas experiences concerning an infectious disease. It killed people, some you wouldn't think, I've seen it get people in the their 30s, not all of them were overweight even (though that was risk factor). It was taking out people fast enough that we had to convert one of our store houses to a temporary morgue. The long term effects of Covid are something else. But the clotting and cardiac complications are real. I managed to avoid getting Covid for almost 2 years, vacced, boosted, I wore my N95 and washed my hands, good basics can go a long way. I ended up getting it through my kids when they went back to school (of course).

However my observation now, is that for whatever reason, Covid has not been killing people at my hospital. Not for months, and I'm not entirely sure why. I don't know if the virus has mutated to be less deadly, or the vaccines have lessened it's impact, or it's mostly already got to the susceptible and vulnerable people. Probably some mixture of all that. While in the first part of 2020 it seemed like a small apocalypse from a healthcare provider standpoint, and very deadly, it doesn't seem that way right now. I hope it continues the trend and lessen it's impact, but I'm not counting on it long term (I'm hopeful, but we'll see). That said, from my limited point of view, we are on the downward slide of the virus and nowhere near it's height. I hope we never have to go through those days again, 2021 was a lot easier to handle than 2020 even. Taking reasonable precautions, I don't see why get togethers can't start happening, I think people understand the risk and can make informed decisions. It seems like post putting kids back in face to face school though, it's spread pretty wide already. If one has, or lives with someone with a compromised immune system, I would urge great caution of course. The general public however has mostly opened events and let's people use their own judgement. Even realizing some people's judgement is more questionable than others, the fact they had the Open House this last month does not bother me in the current climate.

I did not go, but I do not begrudge those that did, and it seems to me the current threat level is reasonable for the general public to make their own assessment.

Just felt like I wanted to add my 2 cents. Take them or leave them as you like.

Edit: on a side note, I've seen a lot more influenza A than covid recently.

[glitterboy2098]

According to the virologists i follow, the WHO, and the CDC, the current strains are generally less lethal, but much more contagious. And the vaccinations make them less lethal still while helping limit the spread some. If we could get more people vaccinated we could hit herd immunity and the pandemic would actually die down, but we've largely hit saturation level for the non-antivaxxer population at this point in the country. Efforts for global vaccinations still lag way behind though which doesn't help.

[Jefffar]

This topic is no longer relevant and is going to just cause debates about the global pandemic, which this section of the forums is not appropriate to, so this thread is now locked.