Withering Flesh Atemi MDC conversion

[EliBenedict]

How do folks handle MDC conversions for Withering Flesh?

Base power says, if succesful, the first touch knocks out 1/2 the target's SDC, second touch knocks out all but one.

Conversion book says the skill does work against MDC opponents, but at 1/2 efficacy.

I'm thinking this means your first touch knocks out 1/4 of their MDC; the second lnocks them down to 1/2+1 MDC; and that's all you get (which leaves it as a very powerful attack, but would prevent a first level Jujutsu intiate from getting lucky and taking out The Lord of the Deep in two rounds, for instance.)

House rule, I think I'd require a player to have some means of doing H2H MDC (supernatural strength, special power attack, ect.) to use it against an MDC opponent.

Thoughts?

[Killer Cyborg]

How do folks handle MDC conversions for Withering Flesh?

Base power says, if succesful, the first touch knocks out 1/2 the target's SDC, second touch knocks out all but one.

Conversion book says the skill does work against MDC opponents, but at 1/2 efficacy.

I'm thinking this means your first touch knocks out 1/4 of their MDC; the second lnocks them down to 1/2+1 MDC; and that's all you get (which leaves it as a very powerful attack, but would prevent a first level Jujutsu intiate from getting lucky and taking out The Lord of the Deep in two rounds, for instance.)

House rule, I think I'd require a player to have some means of doing H2H MDC (supernatural strength, special power attack, ect.) to use it against an MDC opponent.

Thoughts?

First touch knocks out 25% of the target's MDC.
2nd touch knocks out another 25%.
3rd knocks out another 25%
4th, another 25% but leaves 1 MDC.

If the defender successfully Rolls With Punch, the damage is reduced to 1d3 MD.

Frankly, if a 1st level character can somehow get 6 successful Withering Flesh strikes on the Lord of the Deep without getting killed, I can see an argument that they deserve the win.
What's his bonus to Roll?


BUT I think the key here is that Atemi abilities rely on nerve strikes, which means the target has to not only have a system of nerves, but specifically a system of nerves where the years of study of the human nervous system is applicable enough for the strikes to work.
So I'd rule that the Lord of the Deep is safe, unless maybe the character attempting an atemi strike rolls a natural 20, and maybe has the Biology skill or something on top of that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note: I will be using a terms that will be unfamiliar because I just made it up, stop your Knee Jerk responses to yourself and THINK before you complain.

I will be using the Adult Great Horned Dragon (D&G book) as an example, different creatures may have different scores and %'s
A adult Great Horned Dragon has 1515-4530 HP and 600-3600 SDC. or 2500-8500 MDC.

Taking the median of each set of numbers you come to 3023 HP & 2100 SDC or 5500 MDC.
Now adding the SDC & HP together the median structure points in an SDC world is 5123.
Comparing 5123 to 5500 they are sort of equal.
Just looking at the variables (speaking generally) on the SDC world side the structural points can vary the % of HP generated structure points between 30% and 90% of the total.

Now WF Atemi only effects the SDC and can 'at most' deplete only 1/2 the target's SDC in one strike.
So to make the it half as effective means to only be able to cause 1/4 of the structure points represented by/from SDC to be depleted.

I see three options; The lazy one and the more intricate one, and different lazy GM one.

The Lazy: presume that Half of the MDC creature's MDC comes from their SDC score. And each WFA strike does 1/8th the damage of the whole. And can only deplete the creature's MDC down to half their total. (this would be the generally accepted path.)

The intricate one: determine the amount of MDC ( from 10-70%) that comes from the creature's (off Rifts) SDC and the WFA depletes an eighth of that score.

The Different Lazy GM one: Determine that all of the MDC of a creature's MDC can be depleted by WFA, but will have PE HP left over when all of the MDC is depleted.

Thank you for bringing an interesting question to respond to.

EDIT: Note: someone else posted while I was writing this. So my examination was not effected by the other poster.

[Killer Cyborg]

EDIT: Note: someone else posted while I was writing this. So my examination was not effected by the other poster.

Clarification appreciated.


*affected

[ShadowLogan]

How do folks handle MDC conversions for Withering Flesh?

Which version of WFA are you using the one in Rifts Conversion Book 1 (Revised) or Rifts World Book 8: Japan?

Rifts Japan (pg199) is quite clear: "The withering touch can also be used against mega-damage supernatural beings such as oni, dragons, and even gods. In this case, each successful withering flesh strike inflicts 2d4x10 mega-damage (only 1d4x10 M.D against elementals). Up to half of the creature's M.D.C can be reduced by withering flesh before the power becomes ineffective (can only reduce the monster's M.D.C by half) ....", emphasis in original text.

Rifts Conversion Book 1 (Revised) pg81 "...withering flesh and healing Atemi are effective on Mega-Damage creatures but are at half damage/effectiveness."

So, if you are looking for a canon answer on how the WFA (and other Mystic Martial Art Powers) ability works after conversion, I would use the detailed version in WB8 over the RCB1r quick note version. If you don't have WB8, the ability should not be able to kill since the baseline power isn't supposed to impact HP only SDC of creatures (MDC = [SDC + HP]*modifier), so at some point the ability shouldn't work.

[Killer Cyborg]

How do folks handle MDC conversions for Withering Flesh?

Which version of WFA are you using the one in Rifts Conversion Book 1 (Revised) or Rifts World Book 8: Japan?

Rifts Japan (pg199) is quite clear: "The withering touch can also be used against mega-damage supernatural beings such as oni, dragons, and even gods. In this case, each successful withering flesh strike inflicts 2d4x10 mega-damage (only 1d4x10 M.D against elementals). Up to half of the creature's M.D.C can be reduced by withering flesh before the power becomes ineffective (can only reduce the monster's M.D.C by half) ....", emphasis in original text.

Rifts Conversion Book 1 (Revised) pg81 "...withering flesh and healing Atemi are effective on Mega-Damage creatures but are at half damage/effectiveness."

So, if you are looking for a canon answer on how the WFA (and other Mystic Martial Art Powers) ability works after conversion, I would use the detailed version in WB8 over the RCB1r quick note version. If you don't have WB8, the ability should not be able to kill since the baseline power isn't supposed to impact HP only SDC of creatures (MDC = [SDC + HP]*modifier), so at some point the ability shouldn't work.

Huh.
That seems like the most balanced way to go.

[Curbludgeon]

WB25:China 2 has another take on a Withering Flesh effect. Tien-Hseuh (pp35-7) provides several choices in touch attacks. Withering Flesh costs 12 ISP/use, removes all natural SDC subject to a roll with impact, and has no effect on either hit points or MDC. At the 5th level of expertise a practitioner gains Penetrating Tien-Hseuh, which for an additional 12 ISP/use allows an ability to affect any MDC target. In that case one might want to determine what percentage of an MDC being's MDC would be SDC instead of Hit Points, were they in a lower magic dimension. Alternatively, the Tien-Hseuh Demon Strike, @32ISP/use, can remove all but 1d4x10% of a supernatural or creature of magic's MDC, presumably subject only to dodge.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So, if you are looking for a canon answer on how the WFA (and other Mystic Martial Art Powers) ability works after conversion, I would use the detailed version in WB8 over the RCB1r quick note version. If you don't have WB8, the ability should not be able to kill since the baseline power isn't supposed to impact HP only SDC of creatures (MDC = [SDC + HP]*modifier), so at some point the ability shouldn't work.

The the problem with the above statement, is that the version in the R-Japan book is not a conversion, it is a translation. And saying that it is a conversion isn't true.
The same is true of the MA powers in RChina books. They are translations.

In analogy, the RJ version is like a mage made a spell that mimics what a psionic power does.
-----
n the psionics note: there is another variant of the WFA in the RCB1r p52; in the section of psi powers modeled off the N&S Chi powers; with it as a psi power.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, if you are looking for a canon answer on how the WFA (and other Mystic Martial Art Powers) ability works after conversion, I would use the detailed version in WB8 over the RCB1r quick note version. If you don't have WB8, the ability should not be able to kill since the baseline power isn't supposed to impact HP only SDC of creatures (MDC = [SDC + HP]*modifier), so at some point the ability shouldn't work.

The the problem with the above statement, is that the version in the R-Japan book is not a conversion, it is a translation. And saying that it is a conversion isn't true.
The same is true of the MA powers in RChina books. They are translations.

In analogy, the RJ version is like a mage made a spell that mimics what a psionic power does.

Agreed.
Now, if a GM and player wanted to convert the Atemi ability with either of those stats, I'd be fine with it, but the default for conversion for a N&S character who ends up on Rifts Earth is in the Conversion Book.

-----
n the psionics note: there is another variant of the WFA in the RCB1r p52; in the section of psi powers modeled off the N&S Chi powers; with it as a psi power.

Yeah, that whole thing was pretty nuts.

[EliBenedict]

Frankly, if a 1st level character can somehow get 6 successful Withering Flesh strikes on the Lord of the Deep without getting killed, I can see an argument that they deserve the win.

Bet.

In this corner we have The Lord of the Deep (Rifts Underseas): Alien Intelligence, Father of Monsters and perhaps the most powerful fully-statted creature Palladium has ever published.

In this corner, we have Black Belt Mary: 1st level Worldly Martial (Ninjas and Superspies), with average ability scores.

Mary studied Jujustsu. As a Worldly Martial Artist, she gets a bonus Martial Arts power, for a total of four at first level. She takes Withering Flesh Atemi, Weapon Kata (Knife), Zanshin and Iai-Jutsu. She uses one of her basic skill program allotments to pick up the Physical Program (taking , Acrobatics, Boxing and Gymnastics) and gets the Science Program (taking Biology.) With the extra attack from boxing she gets 3 APM. Her starting PP is 10, but she gets +2 from Jujutsu and +2d4 from Ninja and Superspies Gymnastics and Acrobatics (taking the average of 5). giving her a final PP of 17. She gets automatic parry and a +6 bonus to parry with a knife (2 from Jujutsu, 2 from Zanshin, 1 from PP and 1 from WP Knife), and a +7 bonus to initiative (from Zanshin and Iaijutsu). Upon arriving on rifts Earth she learnsLore: Monsters and Demons (per the conversion book).


Let’s give her a fighting chance.

We’ll assume:

-The Lord of the Deep has pulled itself up onto land for some reason
(maybe it took an interest in Mary and wants to turn her into a monster).

-It let Mary get within striking distance.

-Per the creature description it only has one Reacher from the Deep tentacle nearby (and not additional support monsters)

-Mary gets two rounds of relative surprise from the Lord, one wherein it simply doesn’t regard her as a threat, and one where it’s panicking because of how much she hurt it. During these rounds it won’t use magical attacks against her, instead using tentacle attacks (like a person swatting wildly at a wasp as it tries to sting them.) On the third round, it will regain its composure and lay into her with its 3 magical attacks/round. At which point, if she's gotten in even one touch, it will probably rain down Meteors on her or hit her with Dragon Breath

So basically, she's got to put the thing down in two rounds or she's taking a dirt nap.

-We’ll use Killer Cyborg’s initial interpretation of the Withering Flesh conversion: It knocks out ¼ the target's total MDC/attack, until the target has only 1 MDC left. Let’s say it’s contingent on making Biology and appropriate Lore roll. Mary has both skills. We’ll be charitable and say she makes both rolls.

Mary’s got her Jujustu gi and a vibro-blade she picked up somewhere. She figures (correctly) her only chance is to take out The Lord before it knows what’s happening.

Her gamble is to hit The Lord with 3 Withering Touches the first round (reducing it to 25% MDC). It will regenerate 1d4x100 MDC at the end of that round, bringing it above 25% MDC, so she’ll need 2 Withering Touches the next round to bring it down to 1 MDC. Then she’ll finish it off with the Vibro-Blade.

The Lord gets one Main Tentacle Attack against each round, and its Reacher From the Deep tentacle cluster gets 6 attacks against her each round at +4 to strike. All these attacks MD; so if any of them hit, she’s a goner.

The Main Tentacle attack is big enough to take down ships, let's figure it can't be parried. So if it rolls above a 4, she’s out. Technically, she could try and dodge. Given that the Main Tentacle is only +1 to hit, and she’s got +9 to dodge, she’d probably succeed. But she’d lose an attack, which would necessarily push the fight into a third rond, and then she’s dead anyway. So it’s got a 85% chance each round to win just on that.

On the other hand, she can parry the tentacle clusters attacks with her Vibro Blade. The tentacles are +4 to attack; but she’s +6 to parry. All told, they only have 42.5% chance of landing. But there are six of them each round.

Thankfully, The Lord of the Deep’s main body cannot dodge or roll with a punch, so she just needs to roll a 4 or above. Again, she’s got an 85% chance to land each attack.

Initiative doesn’t matter the first round: She’ll need to land all her hits, and hope to evade all The Lord’s attacks. Her odds are about .333%. For that round. .0033293167

Second round, initiative comes into play (If she lived this long). If she wins initiative, she only has to deal with one main tentacle attack and two tentacle cluster attacks before completing her attack sequence. Otherwise it’s one main tentacle and three cluster attacks. She’s got a 78.75% chance of winning initiative. If she wins, her chance for successfully pulling off her second attack sequence is 3.05%. If she loses initiative, it’s only 1.75%.

All told, her odds are .00017758%. About one in 500,000.

Okay, yeah, if she pulled it off, I’d sign off on it.

That said, I agree that the Rifts Japan conversion is probably the most balanced, but drewkitty’s is still reasonably balanced (against low MDC opponents you could probably do more damage with a high powered rail gun; and against high MDC opponents, Dragons and the like, you’d take a huge chunk out of their MDC, but have to rely on other methods once you got down to 50% MDC), and it adheres more closely to the spirit of the original power, and the wording of the conversion book note.

I’d rule in Killer Cyborg’s suggestion: that you’d need a successful Biology roll (and probably a roll for the appropriate Lore skill, too) to make it work. And I’d still insist you have some way of causing MD with your hand to hand attacks. All in all, it isn’t game breaking.

[EliBenedict]

Frankly, if a 1st level character can somehow get 6 successful Withering Flesh strikes on the Lord of the Deep without getting killed, I can see an argument that they deserve the win.

On the other hand, assuming Killer Cyborg’s initial conversion suggestion (and to be clear, I'm not picking on Killer Cyborg. Under almost any normal circumstance, that's a fine way to handle it) if Susy shows up under the same circumstances with four other freshmen from her dojo, who all have the same training, average ability scores and a vibro blade, they've got about a 4% chance of taking out The Lord of the Deep before it can do anything, and a little than a 23% chance of taking it out with at least one of them still standing. Not bad for a party of average, non-munchinky 1st level PCs in garfield pajamas.

They're in garfield pajamas now because it's funnier.

[Blue_Lion]

So, if you are looking for a canon answer on how the WFA (and other Mystic Martial Art Powers) ability works after conversion, I would use the detailed version in WB8 over the RCB1r quick note version. If you don't have WB8, the ability should not be able to kill since the baseline power isn't supposed to impact HP only SDC of creatures (MDC = [SDC + HP]*modifier), so at some point the ability shouldn't work.

The the problem with the above statement, is that the version in the R-Japan book is not a conversion, it is a translation. And saying that it is a conversion isn't true.
The same is true of the MA powers in RChina books. They are translations.

In analogy, the RJ version is like a mage made a spell that mimics what a psionic power does.
-----
n the psionics note: there is another variant of the WFA in the RCB1r p52; in the section of psi powers modeled off the N&S Chi powers; with it as a psi power.

Basically some times different game lines may have things that share the same name but are not the same.
The martial arts and martial arts powers found in rifts japan and china while they have the same name are not the same thing.

(the psi martial arts made no sense to me.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Frankly, if a 1st level character can somehow get 6 successful Withering Flesh strikes on the Lord of the Deep without getting killed, I can see an argument that they deserve the win.

On the other hand, assuming Killer Cyborg’s initial conversion suggestion (and to be clear, I'm not picking on Killer Cyborg. Under almost any normal circumstance, that's a fine way to handle it) if Susy shows up under the same circumstances with four other freshmen from her dojo, who all have the same training, average ability scores and a vibro blade, they've got about a 4% chance of taking out The Lord of the Deep before it can do anything, and a little than a 23% chance of taking it out with at least one of them still standing. Not bad for a party of average, non-munchinky 1st level PCs in garfield pajamas.

They're in garfield pajamas now because it's funnier.

They'd better bring MDC pajamas.


If I were running, as I said, I'd require them to have specialized anatomy knowledge appropriate to non-human targets.
SO they'd have to be dojo freshmen who studied neurological anatomy of deep sea creatures, who made successful skill checks before each strike (or something like that).
And while it's been a while since I read up on it, but I think I recall the Lord of the Deep having special powers beyond just biting tentacle punches and such, magic and/or psionics.

But if a starting party of characters managed to make the right rolls, after somehow getting in punching distance of the Lord of the Deep... I think I'd be good with their win.
Rifts can be fun when stuff like that happens.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok I need to get MDC pajamas for every character I create now.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So, if you are looking for a canon answer on how the WFA (and other Mystic Martial Art Powers) ability works after conversion, I would use the detailed version in WB8 over the RCB1r quick note version. If you don't have WB8, the ability should not be able to kill since the baseline power isn't supposed to impact HP only SDC of creatures (MDC = [SDC + HP]*modifier), so at some point the ability shouldn't work.

The the problem with the above statement, is that the version in the R-Japan book is not a conversion, it is a translation. And saying that it is a conversion isn't true.
The same is true of the MA powers in RChina books. They are translations.

In analogy, the RJ version is like a mage made a spell that mimics what a psionic power does.

Agreed.
Now, if a GM and player wanted to convert the Atemi ability with either of those stats, I'd be fine with it, but the default for conversion for a N&S character who ends up on Rifts Earth is in the Conversion Book.

As a GM, I would make the version choice based on the location/game the char is from. And if a sponsoring MAF was available...at all.

-----
n the psionics note: there is another variant of the WFA in the RCB1r p52; in the section of psi powers modeled off the N&S Chi powers; with it as a psi power.

Yeah, that whole thing was pretty nuts.

For that section of the RCB1/r, some people don't read the text in front of them and think that section of text explains the Chi powers conversions for rifts.