Changing your O.C.C.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Got any examples of conversions in the book that are not simply setting conversions, but actual rule conversions?

Seriously, that's your counterpoint? "They're not conversions, they're just conversions. Bringing an M.D.C. weapon or set of body armor into Palladium Fantasy doesn't require any conversion whatsoever, it just needs a conversion. Don't you get it, man?"

It's particularly amusing seeing as just a few minutes ago you offered up a required conversion in another post. Oh, but wait, sorry, that's only a conversion, not a conversion.

[Killer Cyborg]

Got any examples of conversions in the book that are not simply setting conversions, but actual rule conversions?

Seriously, that's your counterpoint? "They're not conversions, they're just conversions. Bringing an M.D.C. weapon or set of body armor into Palladium Fantasy doesn't require any conversion whatsoever, it just needs a conversion. Don't you get it, man?"

Dude, some universes are MDC settings and some are SDC settings.
This is described in the Megaversal Builder; it's part of the overall Megaverse that not all universes work the same way.

It's particularly amusing seeing as just a few minutes ago you offered up a required conversion in another post. Oh, but wait, sorry, that's only a conversion, not a conversion.

Yeah, man.
Not all conversions are "conversions from one set of game rules to a different set of game rules."
It's entirely possible to convert from within one setting in a game system to another setting in the same system.

Is that really hard to grasp?


Like, when you watch something like Multiverse of Madness, where the main characters travel to another dimension and become cartoons briefly, are you under the impression that you're suddenly watching a different movie than you were the moment before?
How's this work in your mind?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Let's dumb this down a bit more. Remind me, how does the term "is compatible", which was your initial point, somehow negate "but still requires conversion?" And as a follow-up, who said anything about having to create a "completely different rules system?" That's your strawman, not anyone else's.

I don't think "conversion" means what you think it means, Vizzini.

[Killer Cyborg]

Let's dumb this down a bit more. Remind me, how does the term "is compatible", which was your initial point, somehow negate "but still requires conversion?"

The rules are compatible from game setting to game setting and require no conversion because they're all part of the same system of rules (unless there's outright conflict between games, like one game has hypothermia rules that are directly opposed to the other game's hypothermia rules).
The settings have differences that require conversion when moving characters from one setting to the other.

For example, some settings/universes are Mega-Damage settings.
Others are not.
So sometimes you need to convert specific characters/powers/things when you move them from one universe/setting to the other.

I've never claimed that the settings are identical.
I've claimed that they all use the same rule system as a default.
And I've pointed out a handful of the times where Palladium has said so.

Do you understand the difference between game systems and game settings?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Is there some reason you skipped over the follow-up question, which was the brunt of the point? In case you missed it, which you didn't but just didn't want to answer, it was essentially: Where did anyone other than you state that they were completely different rules systems?

[Killer Cyborg]

Is there some reason you skipped over the follow-up question, which was the brunt of the point? In case you missed it, which you didn't but just didn't want to answer, it was essentially: Where did anyone other than you state that they were completely different rules systems?

I never said anybody said they were completely different rules.
I skipped the question because it didn't make any sense in this conversation.

Edit:
The root of the issue isn't whether the games are completely different systems; nobody's claimed that.
Drew's stance is that "the same basic system" means (as far as I can tell) "every game uses only the rules printed in that game, and when Palladium says they use the same system that's their way of telling us that these different games reprint the same rules for the most part, but if any one game leaves out any one rule then that rule is not part of that game."
My stance is that "the same basic system" means "every game uses the same rules as a default. For convenience, we reprint the same basic rules in every 'complete' game book, but any rule from any game works with any other as long as there's no conflict, and sometimes even then we'll put a rule in a specific game that we intend to apply to the entire Megaversal System, such as how the Two Attacks For Living isn't printed in PFRPG, but applies there nonetheless. This is all one system, which is why we keep saying that it's all one system and everything is compatible."

So Drew's stance is (afaik) that things like the PFRPG rules for changing OCCs only apply to that game, because that's the only game that has printed those rules. And the Role-Playing Game Design skill ONLY applies to N&S, as that's the only game that has printed that skill. IF you want your Rifts/HU/BTS character to have the Role-Playing Game Design skill, you have to get GM permission, because it's from a different game."
My own stance is that things like the PFRPG rules for changing OCCs and the Role-Playing Game Design skill are part of the megaversal system as a default. It doesn't matter which game they're printed in, because it's all the same game system. Different settings have setting-specific rules, in the same way that the D&D settings of Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, etc. might have different setting specific rules, and yet are still part of the same overall system.
So if there's no rules in a Rifts book for changing OCCs or for a RPG Design Skill, that doesn't matter; they're not setting-specific rules. There's no conflict with the Rifts rules, and they're part of the Megaversal System, so they're compatible as a default. The only way they wouldn't be compatible as a default, requiring no more permission from the GM than any other rule or skill that happens to be in a Rifts book, is if they conflict with something in the Rifts books, and they don't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I never said anybody said they were completely different rules.
I skipped the question because it didn't make any sense in this conversation.

Got any examples of conversions in the book that are not simply setting conversions, but actual rule conversions?

Not all conversions are "conversions from one set of game rules to a different set of game rules."
It's entirely possible to convert from within one setting in a game system to another setting in the same system.

<repeat ad nauseam, all the while making those claims in an attempt to disprove that conversion rules exist and are needed between the different Palladium games>

<just tosses his hands up in the air>

If you say so.

[Blue_Lion]

It matters because a core of your stance has been the use of the outdated rules on the cutting room floor over the published rules that are in PF.

Remind me, which came first?

Instead of saying the poster is wrong fact check the source. Like I did. What we need to know is where he is looking, to see what it says.

Remind me, what type of class is the Mind Melter, Dog Boy, and Burster in RUE again? (Pro-tip, they have a really convenient acronym. It looks something like "O.C.C." rather than "P.C.C." if that helps.) And then remind me what forum we're in again as well?

And keep in mind the only reason he's whining is because he was proven wrong about P.C.C.s in another thread, and chased me into this one to continue said whining.

I already addressed your first remind me, in the post you just cherry picked from. -I pointed out that the book high seas has more than one thing from the cutting room floor included in it. Your counter was to ask me to remind you of the order seams deflection. But going on a limb here I am going to say the information in the cutting room floor predates the book that included it. (Because logically it would make no sense to call it out as being left out if it was already in a book.) -

How is asking me to remind you something about XCC any thing to do with fact checking the other person source? (I have made no claims or statements about any psi so no reason to try to drag me into it.) We are on the official PB forums, not sure how that matters to anything I posted.

The quoted post did not seam to add anything to the debate. Perhaps you should try to state you point and JaQ


The bolded part is a clearly personal attack on another poster, that is against the rules.
Talk about the post not the poster.

[Blue_Lion]

Is there some reason you skipped over the follow-up question, which was the brunt of the point? In case you missed it, which you didn't but just didn't want to answer, it was essentially: Where did anyone other than you state that they were completely different rules systems?

When did he say they where completely different rules?
This question is a straw-man because he never said they where completely different rules systems.
The post before this he clearly explained that he explained they are all part of the same system of rules. (unless there's outright conflict between games)
Perhaps the debate is do to something not being understood.

Example
Auto dodge
In ninjas and superspies it requires your first action each round to activate it.
Rifts it is always on.
-That means in ninjas and superspies auto dodge works one way and in rifts it works another even though they are the same rules system.

Rifts conversion book 1 does not convert the rules for ninjas and superpies but has rules to convert characters from the setting to rifts.

[Crimson Dynamo]

His entire argument was that they weren't conversions, just conversions. Because, apparently, if a conversion is just between game settings/subsystems, that's not a real conversion; you have to convert between entirely different mechanical systems in order to qualify as a "conversion" (even when you're doing exactly that with subsystems like the M.D.C. rules). And by virtue, you don't have to convert anything to, say, bring a Rifts character with mega-damage armor and weapons into Palladium Fantasy, you just have to convert them, which in Bizzaro-land isn't the same as converting them. Ergo--somehow--proving that you don't have to convert anything because it's all "the same system." You just have to convert them. Which is different. In his his twisted understanding of what the word means, and in spite of there being an entire volume of thick-ass books literally--literally--titled Conversion Books. But that doesn't mean anything, you see, because you're not really converting anything. But only because you're not completely overhauling the rules to, say, the World of Darkness ruleset. THEN it'd be a conversion, despite the conversions required when going from, say, Heroes Unlimited to Rifts. Those are just conversions, not actual conversions.

You can try to argue that wasn't his point all you want, but you'd be wrong. Period.

In the end, his only argument is "game settings aren't entirely different rulesets!" Which absolutely no one said they were, ever, at any point in the history of the thread. That was his strawman that he made up to rationalize this ridiculously asinine argument. All so that he could claim that converting from one setting to another wasn't really converting, because in order to convert, you HAVE to be converting between entirely different rulesets.

That said, my personal favorite part of his ridiculous argument is that "but but but Palladium Books SAID it's the same system! But they didn't title those books 'Conversion Books' or show you how to convert between their different games, because Reasons™!!!" That's the very definition of cherry-picking BS.

[Blue_Lion]

His entire argument was that they weren't conversions, just conversions. Because, apparently, if a conversion is just between game settings/subsystems, that's not a real conversion; you have to convert between entirely different mechanical systems in order to qualify as a "conversion" (even when you're doing exactly that with subsystems like the M.D.C. rules). And by virtue, you don't have to convert anything to, say, bring a Rifts character with mega-damage armor and weapons into Palladium Fantasy, you just have to convert them, which in Bizzaro-land isn't the same as converting them. Ergo--somehow--proving that you don't have to convert anything because it's all "the same system." You just have to convert them. Which is different. In his his twisted understanding of what the word means, and in spite of there being an entire volume of thick-ass books literally--literally--titled Conversion Books. But that doesn't mean anything, you see, because you're not really converting anything. But only because you're not completely overhauling the rules to, say, the World of Darkness ruleset. THEN it'd be a conversion, despite the conversions required when going from, say, Heroes Unlimited to Rifts. Those are just conversions, not actual conversions.

You can try to argue that wasn't his point all you want, but you'd be wrong. Period.

In the end, his only argument is "game settings aren't entirely different rulesets!" Which absolutely no one said they were, ever, at any point in the history of the thread. That was his strawman that he made up to rationalize this ridiculously asinine argument. All so that he could claim that converting from one setting to another wasn't really converting, because in order to convert, you HAVE to be converting between entirely different rulesets.

That said, my personal favorite part of his ridiculous argument is that "but but but Palladium Books SAID it's the same system! But they didn't title those books 'Conversion Books' or show you how to convert between their different games, because Reasons™!!!" That's the very definition of cherry-picking BS.

I would not be so quick to call some one wrong.
Your summery of his stance conflicts with his own statements.

By Killer Cyborgs statements I would say converting rules sets would be like converting from D&D to rifts.(something banned by the rules and you should never ever do it.) Converting from PF to rifts would be converting from the setting because you are not changing the rules.

He has clearly stated his stance is that PB uses the Megaversal system in all the games. (so as long as they do not conflict the rules are the same.)

The claim that Killer cyborg said they are completely different rule systems is not supported by his statements. Not sure weather to call it a straw man, moving goal post or false flag.

He did specify their is a difference between converting between a setting and rules set. So that is factual.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would not be so quick to call some one wrong.
Your summery of his stance conflicts with his own statements.

No, it doesn't.

By Killer Cyborgs statements I would say converting rules sets would be like converting from D&D to rifts.(something banned by the rules and you should never ever do it.) Converting from PF to rifts would be converting from the setting because you are not changing the rules.

Again, that's his asinine strawman argument. Literally no one but him made any claims even remotely relating to this. It was 100% him, just so he could make all these other stupid claims.

He has clearly stated his stance is that PB uses the Megaversal system in all the games. (so as long as they do not conflict the rules are the same.)

See above. Not a single person said otherwise, EXCEPT him, which he made up so he could make these ridiculous arguments to "prove" whatever it was he was trying to prove.

The claim that Killer cyborg said they are completely different rule systems is not supported by his statements. Not sure weather to call it a straw man or false flag.

By all means, show where someone other than him even so much as suggested it. As opposed to just saying you have to convert select rules between different Palladium games/settings.

Go on.

Do it.

Show us where anyone made such claims other than him.

What's wrong, having trouble? I'll give you a small hint as to why: Because no one did.

He did specify their is a difference between converting between a setting and rules set. So that is factual.

Yep, but his POINT in saying that was to claim that you DON'T "actually" convert, even with them publishing literal CONVERSION BOOKS. All because "uh, like, Palladium themselves said it's all one system!!!111one so there's your proof that you don't convert because ACSHTUAL conversions only happen between completely different games!!!"

[Blue_Lion]

I would not be so quick to call some one wrong.
Your summery of his stance conflicts with his own statements.

No, it doesn't.

By Killer Cyborgs statements I would say converting rules sets would be like converting from D&D to rifts.(something banned by the rules and you should never ever do it.) Converting from PF to rifts would be converting from the setting because you are not changing the rules.

Again, that's his asinine strawman argument. Literally no one but him made any claims even remotely relating to this. It was 100% him, just so he could make all these other stupid claims.

He has clearly stated his stance is that PB uses the Megaversal system in all the games. (so as long as they do not conflict the rules are the same.)

See above. Not a single person said otherwise, EXCEPT him, which he made up so he could make these ridiculous arguments to "prove" whatever it was he was trying to prove.

The claim that Killer cyborg said they are completely different rule systems is not supported by his statements. Not sure weather to call it a straw man or false flag.

By all means, show where someone other than him even so much as suggested it. As opposed to just saying you have to convert select rules between different Palladium games/settings.

Go on.

Do it.

Show us where anyone made such claims other than him.

He did specify their is a difference between converting between a setting and rules set. So that is factual.

Yep, but his POINT in saying that was to claim that you DON'T "actually" convert, even with them publishing literal CONVERSION BOOKS. All because "uh, like, Palladium themselves said it's all one system!!!111one so there's your proof that you don't convert!!!"

Yes it does.

Killer Cyborg is not using false claim/strawman but something that gets debated here when you start dealing with rules from other settings. It can be linked to a statement that was made by Drewkitty that the discussion should be moved to PF because that is where the rules are from.

You seam overly focused on cherry picking this part to keep attacking, but your attacks are more of a misdrect than addressing his actually point.

His point is not about converting that is just the windmill that is being attacked. His point was the validity of PF rules in Rifts. Not the converting goal post that has been locked on to.

Let me be clear before you locked in on one part to nit pick he was attempting to prove the validity of restrictions from PF rules in Rifts. Instead the topic is derailed by cherry picking attacks.

Honestly at this point I kind have to ask are you trolling us?

[Killer Cyborg]

His entire argument was that they weren't conversions, just conversions.

Are you operating under the impression that all conversions are the same?
Like, that converting from one game system to another is the same as converting from one setting to another within a single system, which is the same as converting from Judaism to Catholicism, which is the same as converting A/C to D/C?

Or do you understand somewhere deep down that there different kinds of conversions?

[Crimson Dynamo]

See the above post for him doing it yet again, apparently with no self-realization whatsoever.

Also, still waiting for any evidence that anyone claimed that converting between, say, After the Bomb and Rifts is converting entirely different game systems, rather than just requiring some conversions of specific rules. What's wrong? It shouldn't be hard, since that's the entire crux of his argument. There should be countless examples of it from people other than him.

Come on, it's gotta be easy peasy, right?

So where are the quotes, hmm?

[Blue_Lion]

Re: drewkitty ~..~

Again, you're in the Rifts forum discussing Rifts rules for Rifts characters. I'm not quite sure why you keep missing that fact.

That is you making a claim that only rifts rules apply. As DrewKitty was discussing the PF rules that is you doing what you asked us to show evidence of. So you where the one objecting to rules from other setting being brought in to a discussion here. (Ironic given that the rules being discussed are for PF)
So you are the one that Killer Cyborg is trying to make understand they are the same rule set.

So calling him wrong for addressing your claim, that only rifts rules apply.

Well you have your quote are you happy?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Bzzt, nope, sorry, try again.

That was me pointing out that we were discussing Rifts rules, with me pointing out (which was admittedly a mistake I was unaware of at the time) that the Dual O.C.C. rules were written specifically for Rifts. Which--even if you ignore the "more recent rules supersede older rules" concept--would mean they were the defacto rules for that option in Rifts. You'll also note nowhere in the post did I or anyone else claim "converting between Rifts and Palladium Fantasy is UMPOSSIBLE" or whatever else you seem to think was being said.

Troll harder and try again. Oh, and this time, focus on Drewkitty, which is whom Killer Cyborg was focusing his bizarro rant on.

[Killer Cyborg]

See the above post for him doing it yet again, apparently with no self-realization whatsoever.

Okay, so you're just trolling.

[Blue_Lion]

Bzzt, nope, sorry, try again.

That was me pointing out that we were discussing Rifts rules, with me pointing out (which was admittedly a mistake I was unaware of at the time) that the Dual O.C.C. rules were written specifically for Rifts. Which--even if you ignore the "more recent rules supersede older rules" concept--would mean they were the defacto rules for that option in Rifts. You'll also note nowhere in the post did I or anyone else claim "converting between Rifts and Palladium Fantasy is UMPOSSIBLE" or whatever else you seem to think was being said.

Troll harder and try again. Oh, and this time, focus on Drewkitty, which is whom Killer Cyborg was focusing his bizarro rant on.

So let me get this straight.

That is you saying that Drewkitty is wrong to discuss the restricitons to multi-classing found in PF because this is rifts and you can only discuss Rifts.
(You also claimed the rules found in the cutting room floor where for rifts that I disproved.)

So yes that is you setting the standard that PF rules are not rifts rules. While you did not state it that way it is clearly implied.
Asking for a quote from Drewkitty you mean like when he said the debate belongs in PF because that is where the rules are from?
Nice try moving the goal post but rejected.
Honestly your post seam to be more about misdirects, moving goal post and creating strawmen than any thing related to the topic at this point.

Debates on the relevance of rules from other settings happen allot here. Both Killer Cyborg and Drewkitty have participated in such stances so he is aware of each others stances.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That is you saying that Drewkitty is wrong to discuss the restricitons to multi-classing found in PF because this is rifts and you can only discuss Rifts.

No. That was me pointing out that (again, mistakingly at the time) the Dual O.C.C. rules were written for Rifts and superseded anything from another setting. And since we were talking about Rifts characters in a Rifts subforums, those took precedence. Which they still do, seeing as they're the newer rules, but that's neither here nor there.

It's exactly the same as pointing out that Mind Melter's are an O.C.C. in Rifts, despite them being a P.C.C. in some other setting's rules. Because we're discussing Rifts in a Rifts subforum.

Not that any of it matters because it doesn't demonstrate anything you're trying to demonstrate. So again, try harder.

(You also claimed the rules found in the cutting room floor where for rifts that I disproved.)

And there we go, your complete inability to read and keep up with a conversation, seeing as I admitted that just a few posts ago.

Still waiting for those quotes, by the way. Come on. There has to be loads of them, where anyone other than Killer Cyborg claims... whatever it is he claims. Stick to the point rather than continuing to troll repeatedly. (And yes, you two are definitely the trolls here. Continuing to make up stuff and avoiding the topic just so you can do whatever it is you're trying to do, aka troll. I'm just an idiot for refusing to back down on the subject.)

[Kraynic]

Still waiting for those quotes, by the way. Come on. There has to be loads of them, where anyone other than Killer Cyborg claims... whatever it is he claims. Stick to the point rather than continuing to troll repeatedly. (And yes, you two are definitely the trolls here. Continuing to make up stuff and avoiding the topic just so you can do whatever it is you're trying to do, aka troll. I'm just an idiot for refusing to back down on the subject.)

Are you ok?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes, just fine.

[Kraynic]

Ok. I seem to be reading a different thread than you, I guess. Carry on or whatever.