Would you allow a Mystic Super Spy in your game?

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Per the title, I'm curious how permissive the average GM is regarding this little rule oddity.

In the Rifts Mercenaries book, there's the Super Spy OCC, which can be combined with psionics or magic. An optional alternative is to take a magic OCC and merge it with the Super Spy OCC; said magic OCC is frozen at level 2.

Now, I've always wanted to play a Mystic (one of my favorite classes) who can really fight. Granted, a Battle Magus would be stronger overall, but the thing I love about Mystics is that you get healing abilities at level 1, right out the gate. Basically no other (relatively common) magic OCC can do this. Barring Atlantean stuff or various RCCs or a Shifter with a connection to a magical entity, etc. Like I said, it's rare among common OCCs. A Mystic Knight would also be powerful in combat, but I don't like the baggage of joining their silly order.

Eventually I settled on designing a character as follows: it starts out as an ex-Mystic locked into level 2. Super Spy at level 1. I trimmed several language skills, one lore, philosophy, dance, music, etc, as well as 1 OCC-related and 1 secondary skill choice from each class for balance. The idea is that the character was always of a more militaristic mindset, and never focused on the softer side of being a Mystic (anarchist alignment).

As such, the 8 starting spell choices are combat oriented. Including literal combat magic. Stumble, Infrared vision, Farseeing, Nightvision, and Mystic Marksmanship. Also get 4 choices at level 2, so I rounded things out with Cloud of Smoke, Chameleon, etc. The idea was to use smoke either offensively or defensively, then pair it with Infrared vision and Marksmanship and the Sniper skill.

With Boxing and Assassin for hand-to-hand, it starts out with 6 attacks per melee. Starting (elective) psionics are Mind Block, PPE shield, Intuitive Combat, Bio-Regenerate, and Healing Touch.

I figure this character would be pretty powerful for low levels. Comparatively weak by level 8, when a regular Mystic would be able to do almost everything better, including heal. A regular Mystic could never take the Sniper skill, however, or Boxing.

Any objections?

[barna10]

No. Not sure why you think this would e a problem.

You may want to look at the half-wizard from Mysteries of Magic and adapt it to Mystic instead of Wizard.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

No. Not sure why you think this would e a problem.

You may want to look at the half-wizard from Mysteries of Magic and adapt it to Mystic instead of Wizard.

I don't know what the general consensus is on what constitutes an overpowered starting character. I'm sure people try much more ridiculous combinations, but I'd just like a baseline.

I did consider the half-wizard, but the regular Mystic at level 2 has several advantages. One, the +1 to spell strength. Two, the 'free' psionics. Three, the ability to cast spells at level 2 proficiency instead of level 1, which the half-wizard is locked into. And finally, even the best half-wizard spell selection, the prodigy, limits your top spell to a single level 6 choice. Magic's Bio-Regenerate equivalent is only available at level 7.

Edit clarification:

I know you didn't suggest I choose a half-wizard instead, I'm just pointing out why the Mystic is generally such a good idea for this concept.

[barna10]

Bio-regenerate is a psionic power

Even a 2nd level level mystic can't choose above 3rd level spells

Why not just take mystic and use the skills of the super-spy....they aren't that great anyway

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Bio-regenerate is a psionic power

I know.

I said 'magic equivalent' of Bio-Regen, which is Self Heal at level 7. Pound for pound, Bio-Regen is far more useful and available early without any fuss.

I prefer my characters to have both self-healing and the ability to heal others as a secondary role, regardless of their primary role. It's very difficult to make a competent magic healer right out the gate, which is why psionics is always the better choice for low-level healing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't know what the general consensus is on what constitutes an overpowered starting character. I'm sure people try much more ridiculous combinations, but I'd just like a baseline.

I mean, this is Rifts. You don't even need a "combination" to be more powerful than what you proposed. And you don't even have to leave the main sourcebook to do so.

And seriously, is some minor healing really your idea of "overpowered?"

[barna10]

I always ask "Is this more powerful than a Cosmo knight?"

Since that answer is almost always NO.....just about anything goes.

I still don't understand why the 7th level spell is even a part of the discussion....or why it would be a problem.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I don't know what the general consensus is on what constitutes an overpowered starting character. I'm sure people try much more ridiculous combinations, but I'd just like a baseline.

I mean, this is Rifts. You don't even need a "combination" to be more powerful than what you proposed. And you don't even have to leave the main sourcebook to do so.

And seriously, is some minor healing really your idea of "overpowered?"

As I said, I'm just trying to establish a baseline of what's commonly accepted. I'm not that experienced of a tabletop gamer in terms of getting around and seeing what other people are doing. The Super Spy OCC mentions the option of merging the class with a magic OCC as subject to GM discretion.

Obviously there are ways to abuse this heavily, including using a level 2 Shifter with a link to a god of magic, etc. But I always try to make 'reasonable' characters, to such an extent that I suppose many would call them underpowered.

At most, I'd want to play a Lord Magus starting out the campaign at 8th level (because otherwise it takes way too long to reach the 'become an MDC being' perk); which still wouldn't be terribly OP compared to most level 1-3 Atlantean OCCs.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Let's just put it this way, I've never seen "Mystic" included in anyone's list of "most powerful OCCs." And the thing that makes the Super-Spy OCC potentially powerful is their option to have literal superpowers, something any Adventurer & Scholar class could opt to do if superpowers are being allowed.

The character you described in your first post isn't even a moderately intimidating fellow. I'd be more afraid of a 1st level Glitter Boy, Juicer, Dragon Hatchling, or pretty much any of the other classes from the main book.

Like if there were five tiers of characters, with tier 1 being the most powerful, your guy would be about a 4, maybe approaching a 3 if you really spend some effort to pick the right spells, powers, and equipment... and then pit them against characters who didn't.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I always ask "Is this more powerful than a Cosmo knight?"

Since that answer is almost always NO.....just about anything goes.

Fair point, yeah.

The main thing that I'd consider overpowered about my proposed build, is that I'd want to eliminate Cloud of Smoke's aim penalties to my character while in it, since he'd be tracking enemies with infrared vision. Further, since he wouldn't be using the usual thermal imaging from a rifle scope or goggles, his field of view should be unobstructed.

Even if a GM wouldn't remove the smoke penalty for me, I figured the hit bonuses from Sniper and Mystic Marksmanship would allow me to overcome the penalty.

All of that, combined with, say, a MageFire particle beam rifle. Throw in the intuitive combat bonuses to initiative, the initiative bonus from taking the Juggling skill, and Assassin hand-to-hand perks, and it does strike me as slightly OP.

[barna10]

Easier ways to "MDC mage" than an 8th level Lord Magus as well.

Play what you want. If it turns out that was a problem, stop playing it.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Easier ways to "MDC mage" than an 8th level Lord Magus as well.

Play what you want. If it turns out that was a problem, stop playing it.

But Lord Magus offers the huge flexibility of all low level spells, a good selection of mid-level spells, and everything illusion. That's a great combination and allows you to build it up as you level in a wide variety of specializations.

For example, you could make a combat-oriented Lord Magus that's almost equal to a Battle Magus, but with a lot more utility. Or you could just go full utility/support to be a magic Swiss Army Knife.

That, and you can roleplay making the transition from being human to an MDC creature of magic.

All of that makes it a pretty unique class.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm pretty leery of the use of loaded language such as "allow" in this context. All too often it's indicative of normalizing a less than useful power dynamic at the game table.

The Mystic is one of the lower-powered practitioners of magic in Palladium, and limiting it to 2nd level limits them more than perhaps any other PoM. Switching it to the default Magic option for the Super Spy, combined with minor or major healing psionics, would seem to hit the desired goals while still allowing potential for future character growth. Alternatively, PoM OCCs which can learn spells at any time like Ley Line Walkers or Temporal Wizards could work, and I don't think Woodland Druids would lose all that much by being limited in level.

Another option to consider is using the Information Broker OCC from Rifts Black Market. There's decent skill overlap between the I.B. and the Super Spy, and among the options for psionics is being a full Mystic or Master Psionic. Those two options take away OCC Related slots normally gained at 1st level, so such a character would be limited to HtH:Basic, which may make the option a dealbreaker in this circumstance.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I'm pretty leery of the use of loaded language such as "allow" in this context. All too often it's indicative of normalizing a less than useful power dynamic at the game table.

The Mystic is one of the lower-powered practitioners of magic in Palladium, and limiting it to 2nd level limits them more than perhaps any other PoM. Switching it to the default Magic option for the Super Spy, combined with minor or major healing psionics, would seem to hit the desired goals while still allowing potential for future character growth.

See, in my mind anyway, mixing magic and psionics outside of the Mystic, or where an OCC/RCC explicitly mentions it (like a True Atlantean from clan Aerihman) is a little too extreme. Even if it's allowable in the rules, it feels cheesy to me.

Specifically in the case of the Super Spy, however, the creation rules for it explicitly say 'choose ONE' of the 'super' categories; i.e, magic, psionic, or bionic. So the Mystic neatly gets around this limitation without breaking any rule.

As for going with the default magic Super Spy, no mention is made of increases to its magic power as it levels, or any other perks. So it's pretty worthless as a mage. The Mystic gets at least a few starting bonuses, plus the +1 to spell strength at level 2.

What I'm really going for in this instance, is like a deluxe, elite Combat Mage OCC from Mercenary Adventures. The actual Combat Mage OCC is crappy in my opinion, but I like the concept. I'm sacrificing magic potential as I level, accepting the fact I'll always be an inferior mage, but getting pretty decent combat advantages in exchange.

I mean, even if my smoke and infrared gimmicks wouldn't pan out, at the very least, it's a character with minor healing abilities, sniping abilities, Assassin H-to-H, Chameleon, Armor of Ithan, Telekinesis, etc. And clairvoyance, sixth sense, and other spirit communing silliness should a GM want to give me anything to work with on that end.

It's evidently not very impressive to most here, but I'm really fond of designing oddball characters that can cover a lot of eventualities--even in a mediocre fashion.

Alternatively, PoM OCCs which can learn spells at any time like Ley Line Walkers or Temporal Wizards could work, and I don't think Woodland Druids would lose all that much by being limited in level.

I'd much rather abuse the Super Spy rules by using a High Magus or Lord Magus stuck at level 2. In the former case, he'd get all 11th and 12th level spells, plus several other very broadly useful ones (Ithan, Invincible Armor, etc), and +2 to initiative, +1 to spell strength at level 2, and other perks. Can get Martial Arts H-to-H, which is good enough.

Level 2 Lord Magus would regenerate HP/SDC every minute, thereby eliminating the need for any self-heals. Plus all the other stuff he gets at level 1, plus as many as 10 spells from levels 3-4 at level 2.

But--and this is where my own 'realism' limitations kick in--I think it'd be implausible a Lord or High mage would wash out of their training to become a lowly combat mage. They'd have to leave Dweomer permanently to do so. Possible but unlikely.

Much better to do this with a Mystic, since they're not bound by pride, training, or anything else. A Ley Line Walker would also work similarly, but for some reason that OCC leaves me cold.

Another option to consider is using the Information Broker OCC from Rifts Black Market. There's decent skill overlap between the I.B. and the Super Spy, and among the options for psionics is being a full Mystic or Master Psionic. Those two options take away OCC Related slots normally gained at 1st level, so such a character would be limited to HtH:Basic, which may make the option a dealbreaker in this circumstance.

Yeah, H-to-H Basic is something I'm trying to avoid lately. I used to make mages who're totally worthless in combat, but now I firmly believe sacrificing a few OCC related skills for higher combat skill is absolutely worth it--if for no other reason, getting initiative boosts from either Martial Arts or Assassin.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No. Not sure why you think this would e a problem.

You may want to look at the half-wizard from Mysteries of Magic and adapt it to Mystic instead of Wizard.

I don't know what the general consensus is on what constitutes an overpowered starting character. I'm sure people try much more ridiculous combinations, but I'd just like a baseline.

I did consider the half-wizard, but the regular Mystic at level 2 has several advantages. One, the +1 to spell strength. Two, the 'free' psionics. Three, the ability to cast spells at level 2 proficiency instead of level 1, which the half-wizard is locked into. And finally, even the best half-wizard spell selection, the prodigy, limits your top spell to a single level 6 choice. Magic's Bio-Regenerate equivalent is only available at level 7.

Edit clarification:

I know you didn't suggest I choose a half-wizard instead, I'm just pointing out why the Mystic is generally such a good idea for this concept.

It's fine.

Mystics are generally not overpowered. They may have both magic and psionics, but their inability to learn spells via being taught and buying them means their selections are severely restricted, while their psionics are likewise very restricted.

In the Eairly game is when they shine the most. by the mid game, a dedicated Mind Melter/Shifter/Ley Line Walker will have outpaced them with sheer breadth of ability. by the late game, a Mystic has fallen behind the curve. they'll never be not-useful, but they're not as powerful as either dedicated class is in their craft, as it should be.

Basically, they're pretty well balanced, and this option is fine for a super spy, which is just a mystic with more skills.

[Curbludgeon]

While arguably hard to narratively justify, a Super Spy with the casting of a level 2 High Magus is a pretty fun concept. In addition to what low-level utility spells they gain, they'd have the 11-12 level spells whose highlights include Anti Magic Cloud, Create Magic Scroll, Energy Sphere, Id Alter Ego, Amulet, Ensorcel, and Create Automaton, with the potential to pick up 4-10 other spells such as Talisman. I don't really see such a character as being that great of a spy, but could work as a non TW item creator. I'd argue that a Woodland Druid is potentially better suited as a magic gadget-creating spy, if for no other reason than their lower personal PPE total is perhaps less likely to raise the hackles of Psi-Stalkers.

One thing that is arguably awkward about the wording of the Super Spy is what the quote "(T)he character could be just about any of the magic O.C.C.s (but) is permanently frozen at second level." Does that mean the Super Spy has the skill list of their selected OCC, frozen at second level, or do they just have the casting/psionics? Earlier posts suggest that access to HtH:Assassin is one of the selling points, which while available to a Mystic isn't to a Super Spy. Is this build being considered as able to increase the level of H2H level gained by a subsidiary class beyond 2nd level, and if so why?

If one were to open the discussion of possible practitioners of magic usable by a Super Spy to all of Palladium, a Chi Arcanist out of Mystic China has a couple of things going for it. A lot of Chi Magic is still effective at a low caster level, and the character does have access to a martial art, albeit frozen at 3rd level. It's fairly cheesy hoop jumping, but interpreting a Super Spy Chi Arcanist with, say, Snake Style to use the Rifts take on the form would be a fairly fun character to play.

If a magic using Super-Spy using the alternate OCC option is assumed to get all the non-casting benefits of the class, which is what seems to be what's argued above, then a Battle Magus most likely has the most bang for the buck. Alternatively, the Smoker out of the old Manhunter book gets a +1 to spell strength at 2nd level, and halves PPE cost of offensive and defensive spells.

Additionally, I could see places such as Lazlo having training programs as detailed in Heroes of Humanity on magical spies. This could be used to keep combat numbers bolstered. Another option would be to drop the Super-Spy OCC and make a refluffed version of either a Spetsnaz Intelligence Officer with the spell caster MOS, or the Wizard Thief (the attached GRT slur deliberately left unused).

[barna10]

A second level mystic can have up to 3rd level spells. Not sure why you keep thinking your character will have higher than that.

A lord magus or high magus is not a stretch. FOM talks about magi that leave. The Lords are fully tolerant of people that leave to adventure and explore the world.

Why not try a Vanguard Mystic Spy....ready made for you

[Curbludgeon]

Ooh, I forgot about the Vanguard classes. The Espionage Agent, Mystic Spy/Thief, and Savant even have some fun spell options, and have a skill list more befitting a spy than that of a Super Spy. As was mentioned above, the Super Spy is generally considered a class with some potential due to availability of superpowers over that of spells.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

In the Eairly game is when they shine the most. by the mid game, a dedicated Mind Melter/Shifter/Ley Line Walker will have outpaced them with sheer breadth of ability. by the late game, a Mystic has fallen behind the curve.

Yeah, this is what I figured. If I'm in a position where I'm not certain a campaign will run very long, this would be a decent character right out the gate, with no worries about what amount of spell learning a given GM will allow, etc.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

One thing that is arguably awkward about the wording of the Super Spy is what the quote "(T)he character could be just about any of the magic O.C.C.s (but) is permanently frozen at second level." Does that mean the Super Spy has the skill list of their selected OCC, frozen at second level, or do they just have the casting/psionics? Earlier posts suggest that access to HtH:Assassin is one of the selling points, which while available to a Mystic isn't to a Super Spy. Is this build being considered as able to increase the level of H2H level gained by a subsidiary class beyond 2nd level, and if so why?

I assumed, maybe erroneously, that the 'frozen at level 2' part related to magic and not skills and combat training.

Going by the half-wizard, which retains its limited OCC skills as well as a few special skills tied to being a wizard, and no mention is made of those being frozen, but rather the explicit mention that the spells he casts will always be locked into 1st level proficiency.

I therefore assumed that a Mystic Super Spy would be similarly locked into level 2 for the purposes of spell advancement, but all other original OCC skills (of which hand-to-hand training would be included) would advance like normal.

We can compare this to, say, a vampire character, in which it is clearly mentioned that skill levels from the previous life are cut in half and frozen, etc. Presumably because transitioning from human to vampire is more disruptive to learning than going from one OCC to another.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Helpful link: Dual OCCs.

[barna10]

One thing that is arguably awkward about the wording of the Super Spy is what the quote "(T)he character could be just about any of the magic O.C.C.s (but) is permanently frozen at second level." Does that mean the Super Spy has the skill list of their selected OCC, frozen at second level, or do they just have the casting/psionics? Earlier posts suggest that access to HtH:Assassin is one of the selling points, which while available to a Mystic isn't to a Super Spy. Is this build being considered as able to increase the level of H2H level gained by a subsidiary class beyond 2nd level, and if so why?

I assumed, maybe erroneously, that the 'frozen at level 2' part related to magic and not skills and combat training.

Going by the half-wizard, which retains its limited OCC skills as well as a few special skills tied to being a wizard, and no mention is made of those being frozen, but rather the explicit mention that the spells he casts will always be locked into 1st level proficiency.

I therefore assumed that a Mystic Super Spy would be similarly locked into level 2 for the purposes of spell advancement, but all other original OCC skills (of which hand-to-hand training would be included) would advance like normal.

We can compare this to, say, a vampire character, in which it is clearly mentioned that skill levels from the previous life are cut in half and frozen, etc. Presumably because transitioning from human to vampire is more disruptive to learning than going from one OCC to another.

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking ANYTHING in Palladium is by design or as intended.

Seriously though, the Super-spy is a sub-par class. Even if you could double-up on O.C.C. skills like you wanted, there are easier paths to go. If you have Mystic Russia, look at the Wizard Thief or the Slayer(<-luv this class). If you have The Vanguard (Adventure Sourcebook) look at the Vanguard classes. Or just play a Magus class, one that left the compound (again, no penalty for that).

If you really want to "double-up" on skills, take one of the magic classes and make him a Sea Inquisitor (from Rifts: Underseas). This is a far better combo than ANYTHING you can do with Super-Spy.

Or, if you really want that super-special-something, make a demi-god or godling from Pantheons. When you take magic as your special ability you DO get all the class abilities and skills from that O.C.C., plus the nice bonus of ALL the spells you can cast equal to your level or lower.

Really suggest you move-on from the Super-Spy idea.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

A second level mystic can have up to 3rd level spells. Not sure why you keep thinking your character will have higher than that.

A lord magus or high magus is not a stretch. FOM talks about magi that leave. The Lords are fully tolerant of people that leave to adventure and explore the world.

Why not try a Vanguard Mystic Spy....ready made for you

I don't think a Mystic would get higher spells at level 2.

My original point in talking about the 7th level self-healing spell, is that Bio-Regeneration performs about the same at level 1. Meaning that psionics is preferable to magic for healing at low levels. Magic takes too long to get to the good stuff. That was and remains my only point regarding spell levels in this context.

As for the Magi, leaving temporarily for 'adventuring' and 'to see the world' is different than leaving permanently. The latter is mentioned as being rare. Dweomer's various schools aren't going to take the time and effort to groom prospective Magi from an early age, just to let them leave forever without some resistance. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't like designing character concepts around unlikely events very often, because then it opens the door to rampant lore abuse.

As for Vanguard classes, I'm drawing a blank on which book that's from.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Helpful link: Dual OCCs.

Thanks for the link, but I think this applies chiefly to people who literally just switch OCCs in the middle of a campaign.

I think the rules are different and more subjective for a class that's designed from the start as having already assumed to be switched prior to the player beginning a campaign.

As in the case of a half-wizard, something-something-Super Spy, etc.

[Mack]

At most, I'd want to play a Lord Magus starting out the campaign at 8th level (because otherwise it takes way too long to reach the 'become an MDC being' perk); which still wouldn't be terribly OP compared to most level 1-3 Atlantean OCCs.

If you want an MDC caster at low level, consider a Chiang-Ku dragon. You'd get:
-- Metamorphosis, so you can have your character pretend to be human.
-- A healthy chunk of psionics (a bit more than a Mystic, if memory serves).
-- Can pick a magic OCC.
-- Plus a few magic tattoos.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking ANYTHING in Palladium is by design or as intended.

Seriously though, the Super-spy is a sub-par class. Even if you could double-up on O.C.C. skills like you wanted, there are easier paths to go. If you have Mystic Russia, look at the Wizard Thief or the Slayer(<-luv this class). If you have The Vanguard (Adventure Sourcebook) look at the Vanguard classes. Or just play a Magus class, one that left the compound (again, no penalty for that).

If you really want to "double-up" on skills, take one of the magic classes and make him a Sea Inquisitor (from Rifts: Underseas). This is a far better combo than ANYTHING you can do with Super-Spy.

Or, if you really want that super-special-something, make a demi-god or godling from Pantheons. When you take magic as your special ability you DO get all the class abilities and skills from that O.C.C., plus the nice bonus of ALL the spells you can cast equal to your level or lower.

Really suggest you move-on from the Super-Spy idea.

Thanks for the suggestions, but as luck would have it, I own zero of those books, ha ha.

I mean, I have quite a few books, just none of those.

Super Spy was the best thing I could come up with, given my book selection.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

At most, I'd want to play a Lord Magus starting out the campaign at 8th level (because otherwise it takes way too long to reach the 'become an MDC being' perk); which still wouldn't be terribly OP compared to most level 1-3 Atlantean OCCs.

If you want an MDC caster at low level, consider a Chiang-Ku dragon. You'd get:
-- Metamorphosis, so you can have your character pretend to be human.
-- A healthy chunk of psionics (a bit more than a Mystic, if memory serves).
-- Can pick a magic OCC.
-- Plus a few magic tattoos.

I realize I'm sounding like an impossible-to-please Goldilocks now, but the idea of being a dragon just... I don't know, can't get into it. Don't get me wrong, the perks sound great.

I made a similarly powerful character by other means: a Tattooed Voyager Atlantean with a Clan Aerihman background that granted substantial psionic abilities. That's OP enough for me. At level 1, it had 107 MDC and 208 PPE.

The idea was to have most of the dimensional travel capabilities of the Shifter, but without the Shifter baggage. Though, Aerihman brings its own baggage...

[barna10]

"Rare" means it does happen, and every PC is a "rare case". We've had several magus characters, and every one had zero plans of ever returning.

What books do you have?

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

"Rare" means it does happen, and every PC is a "rare case". We've had several magus characters, and every one had zero plans of ever returning.

What books do you have?

I would think it'd make sense to stay on Dweomer's good side--at least pretend you're not leaving permanently--just in case you needed some place to hide for a while.

Anywho, I have RUE, Book of Magic, Federation of Magic, Mysteries of Magic, both Triax, all Vampire books (including Arzno), both Northern Guns, Secrets of the Atlanteans, Bionics Sourcebook, Sourcebook One, Shemarrian Nation, Mindwerks, Black Market, all the Merc books except for MercTown, Sovietski, Coalition Manhunters, Psyscape, and... oh, I also have Conversion Book One and Dark Conversions.

There's not a lot of rhyme or reason to my purchase choice, other than going through various phases. When I first started, I loved tech. Then I moved away from it and thought psionics was best. Now I'm into magic and don't foresee changing anytime soon.

[green.nova343]

One thing that is arguably awkward about the wording of the Super Spy is what the quote "(T)he character could be just about any of the magic O.C.C.s (but) is permanently frozen at second level." Does that mean the Super Spy has the skill list of their selected OCC, frozen at second level, or do they just have the casting/psionics? Earlier posts suggest that access to HtH:Assassin is one of the selling points, which while available to a Mystic isn't to a Super Spy. Is this build being considered as able to increase the level of H2H level gained by a subsidiary class beyond 2nd level, and if so why?

I assumed, maybe erroneously, that the 'frozen at level 2' part related to magic and not skills and combat training.

Going by the half-wizard, which retains its limited OCC skills as well as a few special skills tied to being a wizard, and no mention is made of those being frozen, but rather the explicit mention that the spells he casts will always be locked into 1st level proficiency.

I therefore assumed that a Mystic Super Spy would be similarly locked into level 2 for the purposes of spell advancement, but all other original OCC skills (of which hand-to-hand training would be included) would advance like normal.

We can compare this to, say, a vampire character, in which it is clearly mentioned that skill levels from the previous life are cut in half and frozen, etc. Presumably because transitioning from human to vampire is more disruptive to learning than going from one OCC to another.

Yes...& no....

The assumption is that, instead of being a generic minor wizard/mage as the Super-Spy, they were a full-blown mage O.C.C., but then decided to freeze their progression at 2nd level & switch over to the Super-Spy. That being said, there are already existing rules to become a Dual-classed character (which IIRC also involves only getting the new O.C.C.'s "O.C.C." skills: no Secondary or Related skills in the 2nd O.C.C."). More importantly, the 2nd O.C.C. doesn't get to accumulate more HP/SDC/MDC until its level surpasses the old O.C.C.'s level.

That does not seem to be what's going on here. If anything, I feel like this "frozen at 2nd level" isn't because the character started in a different O.C.C., but is rather a limitation due to the training regimen they went through. Basically, you can receive training as a "Ley Line Walker Lite", & be able to pick more spells as you increase in level, or you get the fixed abilities of a particular practitioner (which can include additional abilities). This is because, rather than strictly studying the mystic arts, they're also studying the "martial" arts: combat, tactics, weapons, espionage, etc. So they can either get a bare-bones generalist knowledge & access, or a more specific but limited focus in the mystic arts.

For example, the Super-Spy that picks the magic option cannot Ley Line Phase, heal using a Ley Line, etc. (I will admit that there does seem to be a limitation, however, in that having LLW power #2 lets the Super-Spy "read" a ley line...but unless it's glowing, how can she detect it in the first place, since she doesn't have #1, "sense ley lines & magic"? Also, I'm wondering if this is a misprint in Mercenaries, as it first says LLW powers #2 & #3, but then says specifically "sense and read ley lines"; #1 is what gives you the ability to sense ley lines).

Also, there's a question as to how PPE would be calculated. My personal opinion is that the base option from Rifts Mercenaries be used no matter what. Otherwise, you risk having these additional powers but with your PPE stuck artificially low. That being said, there's also the power creep in base PPE between RMB & RUE, with the Mercenaries base looking like roughly half that of the standard LLW (1D4x10+20+PE in Mercenaries vs. 2D4x10+20+PE for the LLW in RMB, with both getting +2D6 per additional level). I would consider recommending that, if using the RUE versions of O.C.C.s, that P.P.E. be bumped up to to 2D4x10+20+PE, +3D6 per additional level.

So, I don't see it necessarily becoming a problem. The only issue with going with the Mystic, to be honest, is that the Mystic is not just a spell practitioner, but a master psychic. The main issue isn't in the selection of the psionic powers (my assumption is that they are frozen), but whether the ISP is also frozen...because if it's not, you've essentially gained both the psionic & the mage option for your Super-Spy.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

So, I don't see it necessarily becoming a problem. The only issue with going with the Mystic, to be honest, is that the Mystic is not just a spell practitioner, but a master psychic. The main issue isn't in the selection of the psionic powers (my assumption is that they are frozen), but whether the ISP is also frozen...because if it's not, you've essentially gained both the psionic & the mage option for your Super-Spy.

Per RUE's description of the Mystic, it's stated several times that it's only a major psychic, not a master. If it were a master psychic, I think people would have a higher opinion of it, ha ha.

The default psionic option in the Super Spy's creation rules--that's a master by the looks of it, because it gets 3 choices from each category, and a super, at level 1. Plus the ability to choose any 1 power from any category (including super) at each new level. So that's far and away a more powerful psychic than the Mystic.

Really, if I actually cared about doing spy work (I don't--at least, not exclusively), the psionic option for the 'super' part of the Super Spy would make the most sense. But since Psi-Ghosts already exist, and can generally do a better job at pure spying, I don't see the point.

Because of the generous skill selection options for the Super Spy (specifically in espionage, military, and physical), I think it'd make more sense to use it not for spying, but for combat.

[barna10]

Sorry, you are seriously over-inflating the greatness of the Super-spy.

They get 24 skills.

Mystics get 27 skills (and more than the Superspy as they level) and can take ANY Rogue skills, plus Escape Artist and Disguise.

Tons of overlap between Espionage and Rogue.

Heck, if I were GM I'd just let you switch out the Musical Instrument crap and stuff like that for the skills you wanted from Superspy and call it a day.

[green.nova343]

So, I don't see it necessarily becoming a problem. The only issue with going with the Mystic, to be honest, is that the Mystic is not just a spell practitioner, but a master psychic. The main issue isn't in the selection of the psionic powers (my assumption is that they are frozen), but whether the ISP is also frozen...because if it's not, you've essentially gained both the psionic & the mage option for your Super-Spy.

Per RUE's description of the Mystic, it's stated several times that it's only a major psychic, not a master. If it were a master psychic, I think people would have a higher opinion of it, ha ha.

The default psionic option in the Super Spy's creation rules--that's a master by the looks of it, because it gets 3 choices from each category, and a super, at level 1. Plus the ability to choose any 1 power from any category (including super) at each new level. So that's far and away a more powerful psychic than the Mystic.

Really, if I actually cared about doing spy work (I don't--at least, not exclusively), the psionic option for the 'super' part of the Super Spy would make the most sense. But since Psi-Ghosts already exist, and can generally do a better job at pure spying, I don't see the point.

Because of the generous skill selection options for the Super Spy (specifically in espionage, military, and physical), I think it'd make more sense to use it not for spying, but for combat.

Major vs. master mainly affects the save vs. psionics. There's still the issue of a Mystic starting off with 8 psionics (10 with the RUE version), plus the "super" Sense Supernatural Evil & Open Oneself to the Supernatural abilities (neither of which requires the use of ISP). That was my main issue: getting the spell abilities and the psychic abilities, even at a fixed level, might be a bit excessive, especially when there's no equivalent for the Psionic Super-Spy to pick a specific P.C.C. fixed at 2nd level as an option.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Major vs. master mainly affects the save vs. psionics. There's still the issue of a Mystic starting off with 8 psionics (10 with the RUE version), plus the "super" Sense Supernatural Evil & Open Oneself to the Supernatural abilities (neither of which requires the use of ISP). That was my main issue: getting the spell abilities and the psychic abilities, even at a fixed level, might be a bit excessive, especially when there's no equivalent for the Psionic Super-Spy to pick a specific P.C.C. fixed at 2nd level as an option.

But the actual combat abilities of the Mystic are weak. The supernatural stuff is very conditional and subject to a given GM's whims whether they indulge you by allowing it to be a factor very often.

In terms of raw combat ability, the Super Spy's psionic option is basically giving you a Mind Melter. Granted, you lack the MM's class bonuses, but just going by power selection, it's ridiculous. There aren't even the super exclusions until level 3 that the MM has. You can pick, evidently, any super psionic power you want at level 1.

And you can go on picking supers thereafter, 1 each level if you wanted.

A Mystic locked at 2 is never going to get another psi ability again.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I guess what I don't understand is why are you going for this convoluted mess of a build when superior options exist all around. Especially if your GM is allowing multiclassing. The whole point of "hybrid" classes like the Mystic is that they combine aspects of multiple classes when that option doesn't exist.

You're basically going out of your way to create a really weak character compared to even 1st level characters, and you need to be roughly 4th level just to get there.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I guess what I don't understand is why are you going for this convoluted mess of a build when superior options exist all around. Especially if your GM is allowing multiclassing. The whole point of "hybrid" classes like the Mystic is that they combine aspects of multiple classes when that option doesn't exist.

You're basically going out of your way to create a really weak character compared to even 1st level characters, and you need to be roughly 4th level just to get there.

Everybody seems to be operating from the assumption that I want to make the strongest character possible. I don't.

As I said, I like Mystics (which should automatically tell you I don't care about powerful characters), and all I was trying to do was make one with some Combat Mage OCC flavoring. It's very specific, very niche, something most people wouldn't want to play. Well, I'm not most people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

A Mystic (or any one else) who spends his W.P.s on Energy Rifles/Pistols, buys some nice armor, selects the appropriate spells and powers, selects some choice Physical skills, and maybe invests in a better Hand to Hand skill = a Combat Mystic. The Super-Spy doesn't really do much for you there. The set of classes that does do what you claim to be looking to do and are specifically tailored to the concept (Cyber-Knights) has already been excluded from consideration.

And if it's actually the Super-Spy that you want to play for some reason, the same holds true for them.

I'm still not sure why you're bending over backwards (and coming up with peculiar house rules) to build a mediocre character if that's really all you're trying to do. Multiclassing isn't required for the concept at all.

Honestly it comes across as you're just trying to look for validation for this weird build for some reason, but there's not much of any to be found.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Honestly it comes across as you're just trying to look for validation for this weird build for some reason, but there's not much of any to be found.

You're reading way too much into my intentions here.

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm not an experienced player and haven't talked to a lot of players and formed a clear idea of what's acceptable to the average GM.

If you go back and read my opening post, that's all there is to it.

Instead, people keep suggesting what they think I should play. All I asked is whether it was okay to build a Mystic Super Spy as I built it. I didn't ask for suggestions on how to make a similar character.

Clearly, the consensus is that my concept is not only not OP, but totally underwhelming. That's totally fine. That's what I wanted to figure out.

If you want to be paranoid and assume I'm on some kind of fishing expedition, be my guest.

As for calling it a homebrew (house rules, whatever), it's really not. I was trying to avoid making a homebrew. If I was going to throw out the rules, I'd do so in a more grandiose way than this.

On paper, by the rules, it's acceptable to make a Mystic Super Spy. But since the creation blurb said 'subject to GM permission', that's the point I was asking about. If the blurb hadn't said that, I wouldn't even ask for a general opinion.

And no, you can't just give the regular Mystic some combat stuff. It doesn't work. Choosing Assassin for HtH costs 4 skills. You can't pick boxing as a Mystic. That's one extra attack right there, which pretty drastically changes the concept. You can't pick Sniper skill from Espionage. You can't pick Armorer from Military.

My whole point of picking Sniper and Mystic Marksmanship was to totally eliminate the penalty for aiming at very small targets.

[barna10]

Totally understand where you are coming from, MyDumpStatIsMA

Still think this is a bad approach. An acceptable one I would allow, but Super Spy is meh.

Again, what books do you have?

[Devjannz]

After looking at the Super-Spy again and the Mystic the way I would approach it is to build your Super-Spy and then figure what powers a 2nd level Mystic would have available to them and give them those powers (frozen at that level as it says). As someone who has played and run RIFTS since it was first published (and I still have my original RMB), I would not see this as OP or UP, but an interesting concept that I would allow my player to explore.

[barna10]

After looking at the Super-Spy again and the Mystic the way I would approach it is to build your Super-Spy and then figure what powers a 2nd level Mystic would have available to them and give them those powers (frozen at that level as it says). As someone who has played and run RIFTS since it was first published (and I still have my original RMB), I would not see this as OP or UP, but an interesting concept that I would allow my player to explore.

I like the idea: a magical sniper. Really like it.

Battle Magus is ready-made for this. Using the RUE psionics rules (where being a Major psychic no longer affects your "other" skill selection...don't care if it's a typo or omission...I run with it ) you should be able to achieve a better result.

[Devjannz]

I like the idea: a magical sniper. Really like it.

Battle Magus is ready-made for this. Using the RUE psionics rules (where being a Major psychic no longer affects your "other" skill selection...don't care if it's a typo or omission...I run with it ) you should be able to achieve a better result.

The bottom line is that he does not want to be a Battle Magus, he wants to be a Super Spy with Mystic abilities so why argue the point. It is his choice as a player on how he wants to build the character and see how that build works. If it doesn't work out the way he hoped then maybe he will try another way like Battle Magus but until then, I don't see why we cannot just offer our support and best ideas on how to make what he wants to do work the best way we can think of.

There was only one time I seriously said NO to a player's character concept and the was when a player wanted to make a Promethean with all of the abilities of the Phase Adept and a Time Master and I was like, um.....NO!. lol

[Curbludgeon]

The available book list was previously posted.

I think the point has been made that choosing a 2nd level Mystic's abilities not only doesn't apply skills in the way initially considered, but that it's perhaps the least powerful option for an already fairly low-powered class. Since the OP not only didn't ask for options in better realizing this concept but has already received several (not including one I just thought of, the Arcane Detective from Nightbane, given the Conversion Book treatment), it's rather belaboring the point.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Totally understand where you are coming from, MyDumpStatIsMA

Still think this is a bad approach. An acceptable one I would allow, but Super Spy is meh.

Again, what books do you have?

Scroll up 10 posts from this one (your question, not my answer), and you'll see my books.

The bottom line is that he does not want to be a Battle Magus, he wants to be a Super Spy with Mystic abilities so why argue the point. It is his choice as a player on how he wants to build the character and see how that build works. If it doesn't work out the way he hoped then maybe he will try another way like Battle Magus but until then, I don't see why we cannot just offer our support and best ideas on how to make what he wants to do work the best way we can think of.

Thank you, good sir or ma'am!

That's all I expected.

As I've explained, I know full well my concept would be obsolete compared to true magic OCCs by middle levels. This is something that I wanted to be effective 'right out of the box' at Super Spy level 1.

If it works well, then the lack of spell learning and advancement on the Mystic OCC wouldn't be a major issue until high-end enemies start to appear. If it doesn't work well, even at low levels, then back to the drawing board.

[Mack]

Always remember Rule #1: Just enjoy the game. If someone wants to play a character that isn't the uber-optimized build, who cares? The important part is whether they enjoy the character.

Unless the GM (or possibly another player) objects, it's all good.

[Devjannz]

Thank you, good sir or ma'am!

That's all I expected.

As I've explained, I know full well my concept would be obsolete compared to true magic OCCs by middle levels. This is something that I wanted to be effective 'right out of the box' at Super Spy level 1.

If it works well, then the lack of spell learning and advancement on the Mystic OCC wouldn't be a major issue until high-end enemies start to appear. If it doesn't work well, even at low levels, then back to the drawing board.

No problem. I love character concepts that are not always uber-powerful. I have my share of Uber characters for sure (Demigod Galactic Tracer with Ley Line Rifter abilities for instance) but I also have some very low key character builds (Human Wilderness Scout with Minor Psi Powers). I like the variety of choice you have when making a character. I even have a GlitterBoy pilot who is also the team medic and heavy weapons guy (can't always take the GB Suit into a place or use the Boom Gun unless you don't care about mass damage to local stuff).

[barna10]

Totally understand where you are coming from, MyDumpStatIsMA

Still think this is a bad approach. An acceptable one I would allow, but Super Spy is meh.

Again, what books do you have?

Scroll up 10 posts from this one (your question, not my answer), and you'll see my books.

Sorry, see it now, ty

The bottom line is that he does not want to be a Battle Magus, he wants to be a Super Spy with Mystic abilities so why argue the point. It is his choice as a player on how he wants to build the character and see how that build works. If it doesn't work out the way he hoped then maybe he will try another way like Battle Magus but until then, I don't see why we cannot just offer our support and best ideas on how to make what he wants to do work the best way we can think of.

Thank you, good sir or ma'am!

That's all I expected.

As I've explained, I know full well my concept would be obsolete compared to true magic OCCs by middle levels. This is something that I wanted to be effective 'right out of the box' at Super Spy level 1.

If it works well, then the lack of spell learning and advancement on the Mystic OCC wouldn't be a major issue until high-end enemies start to appear. If it doesn't work well, even at low levels, then back to the drawing board.

Not going to apologize for giving suggestions. It's no different than I'd do for any of my players.

Would I allow your choice? Sure. Do I think you can do better for the concept you are looking for? Absolutely.

I'd be one crappy GM if I didn't bring all the options to the table and let you make an informed decision. If you still choose to stick to your concept, fine.

Problem I have here is the mixed message. You don't appear to be going purely on concept. It appears you are trying to optimize and get some good bang for your buck. You're not truly trying to be a "Super-Spy Mystic", you are trying to make a "super-optimized sniper with healing capability that stays relevant for as many levels as possible".

To that end, you're not achieving your goal. Your character is subpar at levels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and 15. If that's your goal, then great.

Why not take the "minor mage" option and add Major Psionics (again, no "other skill" cost per RUE)? You are already conceding you won't get super psionics. And sure, you miss out on the +1 spell strength, but what spells is the save really going to matter for this concept?

I'd work with you do something better. You are limited by the books you have.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

No problem. I love character concepts that are not always uber-powerful. I have my share of Uber characters for sure (Demigod Galactic Tracer with Ley Line Rifter abilities for instance) but I also have some very low key character builds (Human Wilderness Scout with Minor Psi Powers). I like the variety of choice you have when making a character. I even have a GlitterBoy pilot who is also the team medic and heavy weapons guy (can't always take the GB Suit into a place or use the Boom Gun unless you don't care about mass damage to local stuff).

I once made a Psynetic Crazy (and no, for the record, I don't play Crazies like Robin Williams on speed--regardless of what RUE suggests) who had 17 psionic powers at level 1.

I made them all defensive/healing. Even the 4 supers.

The concept was that he was created as kind of a sick joke, since Mindwerks is not above such 'humor'.

When I play video RPGs, like Dark Souls/Elden Ring types, the Witcher, etc, I always like to have quite a large defensive bag of tricks. I pretty much never build any character, in any medium, as an all-out bruiser. Just not my style.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Not going to apologize for giving suggestions. It's no different than I'd do for any of my players.

I neither asked for nor expected an apology.

Why is it that some people here are assuming what I want, completely out of left field?

Problem I have here is the mixed message. You don't appear to be going purely on concept. It appears you are trying to optimize and get some good bang for your buck. You're not truly trying to be a "Super-Spy Mystic", you are trying to make a "super-optimized sniper with healing capability that stays relevant for as many levels as possible".

To that end, you're not achieving your goal. Your character is subpar at levels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and 15. If that's your goal, then great.

Subpar compared to what? I mean, yeah, you can trot out the easiest examples of a level 1 powerhouse, but if that's not what I'm going for, then who cares?

I'm more powerful than a level 1, 2, or 3 plain Mystic when it comes to sniping. Being able to take boxing means I've got 6 attacks, which means I can either make 3 called shots per round, or 2 aimed/called shots. That's what I was going for.

I'm more powerful than a level 1, 2, or 3 Combat Mage OCC.

That's all I was going for. That's it. Nothing else.

Everything else is you reading far too much into what I'm trying to do.

[Devjannz]

I once made a Psynetic Crazy (and no, for the record, I don't play Crazies like Robin Williams on speed--regardless of what RUE suggests) who had 17 psionic powers at level 1.

I made them all defensive/healing. Even the 4 supers.

The concept was that he was created as kind of a sick joke, since Mindwerks is not above such 'humor'.

When I play video RPGs, like Dark Souls/Elden Ring types, the Witcher, etc, I always like to have quite a large defensive bag of tricks. I pretty much never build any character, in any medium, as an all-out bruiser. Just not my style.

I have always like balanced characters who can give out good damage but still defend themselves well when needed. I also like taking classes and turning them on their head a little and use them to build something a little out of the ordinary (hence the GB Pilot Medic). My ex-wife played a GrackleTooth Operator who was an awesome character (she was always critiquing equipment and vehicles and loved taking things apart to see how they worked).