to shoot a bee hummingbird

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd require a Called Shot with a strike penalty for size, plus the penalties for moving target and such, but I'm not sure what the canon rules would be.
Might check the Palladium Book of Monsters and Animals to see if there's anything comparable.

BUT I wouldn't rely on that for my character build, because anybody could still hit you on a Natural 20, and that'll catch up to you at some point.
Also, any auto-strike spell like Call Lightning would nail you, and any AOE damage like grenades would have to be dodged if possible.

[Mack]

I had a similar thought regarding a few of the new tattoos that came out with Secrets of Atlantis. You can have a tattoo-created bee / wasp that flies at 30mph and shoots SDC lightning bolts. Sure, it's not going to destroy much, but you could really harass a group of camped soldiers.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Are there any penalties to hit creatures of such small sizes? We have stuff like armor ratings or 'called shot' penalties when targeting small vulnerable sublocations of big suits of armor, but what about creatures who are just plain small?

It would seem easier for example, to hit the gap in some Triax Plainclothes armor, than to shoot a hummingbird.

Pg 361 of RUE has a 'moving target' penalty of -1 to hit someone running under 20mph which I'd assume would apply to fliers (next threshold for -2 is 70mph) but there's nothing about target size. Wondering if anyone remembers precedent somewhere for tiny targets being harder to hit, large targets being easier to hit.

I've always thought that the -1 penalty for a moving target is ridiculously generous; especially considering how easy it is to get aiming bonuses. I assume it's meant to keep combat pace up by not having constant misses, but if you really want to think about not just the speed with which a target moves, but the way it moves (depending on some monster types, oddities in running/flying patterns, etc), -1 is a tiny penalty by almost any gaming standard I'm familiar with.

Just off the top of my head, in Battletech, a gigantic (10m tall at least) 55 ton mech moving at 100+ KPH and using jump jets to travel several hundred meters in a few seconds--that gets a +5 hit penalty, and this is in a 2D6 roll. With other difficulty modifiers, it quickly becomes an impossible shot.

Meaning that a gigantic 55 ton mech is harder to hit in Battletech, than a man-sized target doing acrobatics in Rifts.

If I were GM in this scenario, I would say the hummingbird in question is impossible to hit (provided it kept moving at full speed), unless using a shotgun with appropriate ammo (buckshot or birdshot), or a magic spell with automatic aiming. An explosive would only be viable if it could be timed to blow up mid-air.

[hup7]

The humming bird would be making a melee attack, so it would more likely be parried - and if parried (or worse simultaneous) with / by an MDC creature as a GM I would say it instantly goes splat.

Think sort of like a fly vs human - sure it buzzes around until you hit it ... once.

Oh I hate to burst your bubble but I think a humming bird swooping at my head - is a pretty easy Perception; don't know about you but again fly buzzing around my face? Yeah noticeable.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

The humming bird would be making a melee attack, so it would more likely be parried - and if parried (or worse simultaneous) with / by an MDC creature as a GM I would say it instantly goes splat.

Think sort of like a fly vs human - sure it buzzes around until you hit it ... once.

Oh I hate to burst your bubble but I think a humming bird swooping at my head - is a pretty easy Perception; don't know about you but again fly buzzing around my face? Yeah noticeable.

If you've ever had hummingbirds flying around your head--I mean a few feet away--you'd know they're nothing like a fly.

Flies have lazy, linear movement by comparison. Hummingbirds move like UFOs. Any direction, at any moment. You can only hear the hum of their wings when they're within a few feet of you. If they'd attack you from any direction besides head-on, you would have very little warning.

If a magically superpowered hummingbird decided to dive bomb itself into the back of your head, there's nothing you could do about it. Barring an OCC/RCC with the right kinds of natural abilities, like certain psionics and Juicers, etc. For an average human with no special 'radar', it should be considered a sneak attack.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

apparently a praying mantis is quick enough to stop them though, mantis will actually eat them it looks like

Didn't know that, interesting.

But yeah, I don't expect the average human is going to have the same reactions. Especially if it's coming from your blind spot.

For people who can't be bothered to google, here's a funny excerpt from the Wikipedia article:

"When courting, the male Anna's hummingbird ascends some 35 m (115 ft) above a female, before diving at a speed of 27 m/s (89 ft/s), equal to 385 body lengths/sec – producing a high-pitched sound near the female at the nadir of the dive. This downward acceleration during a dive is the highest reported for any vertebrate undergoing a voluntary aerial maneuver; in addition to acceleration, the speed, relative to body length, is the highest known for any vertebrate. For instance, it is about twice the diving speed of peregrine falcons in pursuit of prey. At maximum descent speed, about 10 g of gravitational force occur in the courting hummingbird during a dive (Note: G-force is generated as the bird pulls out of the dive). By comparison to humans, this is a G-force acceleration well beyond the threshold of causing near loss of consciousness in fighter pilots (occurring at about +5 Gz) during flight of fixed-wing aircraft in a high-speed banked turn."

[hup7]

First, I wasn't comparing a fly to a humming bird - IF you have been around a humming bird you would know their prowl ability is 0%.

You should ask your GM how they take sneak attacks - if speed and size are factors, compared to prowl, sneaking etc. How your GM takes it will make a huge difference. Personally they need to be undetected when they make the attack - for a humming bird (correct me if they get a charge attack - I do NOT think so; falcons DO get a charge/dive attack counts as two attacks) they have to move up and then attack, which means a prowl roll to approach (again correct me if you find a reference) and I think their prowl is 0% due to their noise. But only my opinion - check with your GM.

Of course even if detected they are difficult to hit due to speed (try the fastest humming bird not the smallest), but they are still a melee attacker.

" the speed, relative to body length, is the highest known for any vertebrate" This is the stupidest statement I have read in I don't even know how long. By the same 'comparison' my bicycle is faster than a jet airliner ... relative to length. Yes, I know you are just quoting Wikipedia and didn't say this yourself - but when presenting information try to use decent information.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

First, I wasn't comparing a fly to a humming bird - IF you have been around a humming bird you would know their prowl ability is 0%.

Most of the 'hum' sound they make comes from when they stop/slow down to hover. Not when they're moving at full speed.

Do keep pretending like you've actually been around hummingbirds, though.

" the speed, relative to body length, is the highest known for any vertebrate" This is the stupidest statement I have read in I don't even know how long. By the same 'comparison' my bicycle is faster than a jet airliner ... relative to length. Yes, I know you are just quoting Wikipedia and didn't say this yourself - but when presenting information try to use decent information.

Sounds like you're just trying to be contrary, ignore the salient points, and be needlessly insulting at the same time.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

That works out to roughly 60mph, wonder if one could instruct a skeleton metamorphed into a hummingbird to do this.

Yeah, your minion's intelligence would be the limiting factor in coming up with clever attack routines.

[hup7]

First, I wasn't comparing a fly to a humming bird - IF you have been around a humming bird you would know their prowl ability is 0%.

Most of the 'hum' sound they make comes from when they stop/slow down to hover. Not when they're moving at full speed.

Do keep pretending like you've actually been around hummingbirds, though.

" the speed, relative to body length, is the highest known for any vertebrate" This is the stupidest statement I have read in I don't even know how long. By the same 'comparison' my bicycle is faster than a jet airliner ... relative to length. Yes, I know you are just quoting Wikipedia and didn't say this yourself - but when presenting information try to use decent information.

Sounds like you're just trying to be contrary, ignore the salient points, and be needlessly insulting at the same time.

No, actually I am trying to help. To that end I have read through multiple books. However - yes I stand by my statement that calculating speed relative to 'length' is arbitrary AND misleading. Additionally I never said I have regularly been around humming birds; for the record I have not. I have been around humming birds but not often. However they are 'known' for their sounds.

My main point was "check with YOUR GM", every GM has to make calls all the time. A dive attack might be considered a single attack, or might be considered a move, then an attack. The hummingbird probably doesn't have a dive attack, BUT the GM is free to rule it does - I cannot find stats on the hummingbird in any book I checked.

"Note: The defender can only defend against attacks within his line of vision. Attacks from the rear or which are not seen coming cannot be parried, dodged or entangled." RUE p341. And, "Sneak Attack: An attacker may lie in wait (ambush), attack from behind, or sneak up (Prowl) on an opponent. If the foe does not discover the attacker, then the sneak attack is successful. The sneak attacker always has initiative, and the defender is not able to parry or dodge the sneak attack." RUE p347

So your hummingbird has to successfully ambush, attack form behind or prowl. Two of those require a skill roll - a skill I (again assuming) don't think the hummingbird has. Would a GM allow a hummingbird to ALWAYS attack from behind just because they are small / fast? As a GM I would say no (but that is MY opinion), otherwise fairies would mention always attacking from behind - they are super fast and tiny. Does that mean I wouldn't allow it - no, just they would need to make a prowl roll to approach without being noticed.

My advise would be talk to your GM but I would also advise choosing an eagle or falcon. The stats for a Falcon include a prowl skill "prowl (silent glide attack) 70%" and further lists their speed "88, but can reach speeds of 200 in bursts lasting 1D6x10 minutes and the fastest dive attack is at 175 mph (280 km)". PFRGP Monsters and Animals. Stats for Falcon ARE in Atlantis but it doesn't list their full stats, nor give the prowl skill, so use Monsters and Animals if available; since Atlantis does state "To list and detail every type of animal would fill fifty pages of this book. I suggest reading the descriptions of specific animals in Palladium's Book of Monsters & Animals".

You could use the stats of a falcon to demonstrate to your GM that some birds can fly silently and argue that hummingbirds should be silent but most likely a GM would require a prowl (or ambush) roll.

One other issue you might have is metamorphosis undead into living. Metamorphosis Superior states "This incantation enables the spell caster to transform himself into any real, living creature: animal, human, D-Bee, insect, fish or whatever. The usual limitations and abilities still apply" Yes, this is superior not just animal. Again this would be a GM call. Reading Zombie and Mummy while it doesn't say specifically they are NOT affected by metamorphosis it does list the magic that affects them. This might be the first thing to discuss with your GM. Can they be metamorphosis into an undead hummingbird? Does that even make any difference to their stats?

Have fun, a few points to discuss with your GM.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

No, actually I am trying to help. To that end I have read through multiple books. However - yes I stand by my statement that calculating speed relative to 'length' is arbitrary AND misleading. Additionally I never said I have regularly been around humming birds; for the record I have not. I have been around humming birds but not often. However they are 'known' for their sounds.

No problem, I won't belabor the point.

As for the game implementation, I do think some factor needs to account for how tiny an average hummingbird is.

A falcon/eagle does move much faster, yes, but also in mostly straight lines that are relatively predictable. Shooting at one would have the usual 'small target' penalty, but I wouldn't call it an impossible shot by any means.

A hummingbird moving evasively, however, should get something like an automatic dodge with a hefty bonus, at the very least. Not only is it a physically smaller target than a falcon/eagle, but it's able to move in ways other birds cannot. The dodge wouldn't be that it 'knows' it's being shot at, as much as its normal movement is similar to an auto dodge in principle.

I'd say a hummingbird has a very high prowl percentage based on distance. Because it's so small, you very likely won't visually spot it flying above you. It's basically a large insect, and nobody really keeps an eye out for those.

Likewise, the sound a h-bird makes is limited to a few dozen feet at most. I would therefore give them a higher prowl rating than a falcon/hawk when 30+ feet away, both for visual and auditory detection, since falcons and hawks are very noticeable in the air from much greater distances than 30 feet.

[hup7]

Well you are welcome to give hummingbirds whatever stats you want in your game, as I say they are not specifically written up in any book I found.

Personally, I would simply give them the same abilities as a songbird or any other small bird. No, I would not give them a higher prowl than a falcon, nor would I try to create some sort of "high speed = high prowl" or "small size = high prowl" rule; to me it is way to open to abuse. That is my opinion as a GM and player. Note that opinion is based on many animals, monsters and spells in the rules that do not support the impression speed should equal prowl, nor size equals prowl. In fact the opposite tends to be in the rules - higher speed equates to less prowl, not from sound either - see Chameleon amongst other sources.

But you really need to discuss with your GM. I am not your GM, my opinion doesn't matter.

Probably would be easier to just use summon / control birds to summon a bunch of hummingbirds and cast superhuman strength on them. Note there are also a bunch of spells to grant prowl / prowl bonuses (chameleon for one). Or summon / control insects - butterflies ("no one suspects the butterfly") or other insects most of which are far superior in terms of going unnoticed. Heck, most insects DO have a prowl skill too.

Don't get me wrong concealing hummingbirds in your sleeves to suddenly startle and attack your foes would be amusing and hilarious (see sleeve dogs).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Don't get me wrong concealing hummingbirds in your sleeves to suddenly startle and attack your foes would be amusing and hilarious (see sleeve dogs).

Ha ha, that would be great.

All this talk of combat hummingbirds suddenly makes the Coalition Manhunter OCC code-named 'Hummingbird' seem slightly less ridiculous.

Slightly, I want to emphasize.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

All this talk of combat hummingbirds suddenly makes the Coalition Manhunter OCC code-named 'Hummingbird' seem slightly less ridiculous.
Slightly, I want to emphasize.

I didn't remember this existed but this is now my favorite OCC

If you can manage to orchestrate a battle near a thunderstorm, you can call lightning for a 3d6x10 MD strike, once per melee.

The caveat being it must be a pretty intense storm.

Anyway, it's a pretty useful OCC besides.

[narcissus]

Re. Hitting small targets, check out the EIR-70 Robot Spy Drone in Triax 2. Requires a called shot to hit at -5, and is described as "the size of a poker chip to that of a pack of cigarettes".

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

that sounds magical like those rainmakers in africa, I had assumed it was a tech OCC

It's psionic. A more powerful version of the Zapper. Possesses both electro- and telekinesis. Along with all the basic military training of a Coalition Manhunter.

Re. Hitting small targets, check out the EIR-70 Robot Spy Drone in Triax 2. Requires a called shot to hit at -5, and is described as "the size of a poker chip to that of a pack of cigarettes".

Good find.

The only mitigating factor is that these drones apparently don't come in flying models. Thus a hummingbird would still be moving faster.

[narcissus]

The only mitigating factor is that these drones apparently don't come in flying models. Thus a hummingbird would still be moving faster.

Yup, so just apply additional penalties. At least -1 for moving target, then more depending on speed/evasive action as per RUE:

Target is Moving: -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 mph (80 km) beyond 20 mph (32 km), and -1 for evasive action.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

The only mitigating factor is that these drones apparently don't come in flying models. Thus a hummingbird would still be moving faster.

Yup, so just apply additional penalties. At least -1 for moving target, then more depending on speed/evasive action as per RUE:

Target is Moving: -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 mph (80 km) beyond 20 mph (32 km), and -1 for evasive action.

Yeah, but the silly thing about that is, a mouse drone moving at 15 MPH, on the ground, is going to have the same penalty (-5 and -2 if running/evading) as a hummingbird diving at 60 MPH.

A flying target should always be harder to hit. There's a reason birdshot exists for shotguns. Trying to hit a regular flying bird is hard enough, much less a hummingbird moving evasively.

The game rules, as they are, don't really apply to an oddity like a hummingbird. Literally nothing else in nature moves like a hummingbird. Not at that size, with that level of acceleration, and the ability to move in any direction while turning on a dime.

[narcissus]

60 MPH would be an additional -1 (I'd round it personally, as it's closer to 70 than 20).

Honestly, you have two choices - rules as written, or house rule. I'm presenting rules as written for you. Otherwise it's a conversation with your GM.

Happy gaming!

Update: Mechanoid Wasps actually move similar to what you're describing, but on a larger scale. There is no penalty to hit them because of their maneuverability. However they do have a decent bonus to automatic dodge. Perhaps it's not just about missing the hummingbird, but also its ability to avoid being hit (i.e. dodge).

The wasp can attain incredible speeds while maintaining absolute control and precision maneuvering. The system is so amazing that the wasp can go from 0 to Mach 3 in five seconds and come to a complete stop in an instant!

[Killer Cyborg]

The only mitigating factor is that these drones apparently don't come in flying models. Thus a hummingbird would still be moving faster.

Yup, so just apply additional penalties. At least -1 for moving target, then more depending on speed/evasive action as per RUE:

Target is Moving: -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 mph (80 km) beyond 20 mph (32 km), and -1 for evasive action.

Yeah, but the silly thing about that is, a mouse drone moving at 15 MPH, on the ground, is going to have the same penalty (-5 and -2 if running/evading) as a hummingbird diving at 60 MPH.

A flying target should always be harder to hit. There's a reason birdshot exists for shotguns. Trying to hit a regular flying bird is hard enough, much less a hummingbird moving evasively.

The game rules, as they are, don't really apply to an oddity like a hummingbird. Literally nothing else in nature moves like a hummingbird. Not at that size, with that level of acceleration, and the ability to move in any direction while turning on a dime.

Eh.
I'm pretty sure birdshot would be the way to go if you're shooting at a squirrel on the run, or a mouse.
Wouldn't want to just use a rifle.

I don't know that flying targets are any harder to hit than ground targets, except that they can dodge in more directions.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

60 MPH would be an additional -1 (I'd round it personally, as it's closer to 70 than 20).

Honestly, you have two choices - rules as written, or house rule. I'm presenting rules as written for you. Otherwise it's a conversation with your GM.

Happy gaming!

Update: Mechanoid Wasps actually move similar to what you're describing, but on a larger scale. There is no penalty to hit them because of their maneuverability. However they do have a decent bonus to automatic dodge. Perhaps it's not just about missing the hummingbird, but also its ability to avoid being hit (i.e. dodge).

The wasp can attain incredible speeds while maintaining absolute control and precision maneuvering. The system is so amazing that the wasp can go from 0 to Mach 3 in five seconds and come to a complete stop in an instant!

Yeah, I'd definitely go with an auto-dodge for an h-bird.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Eh.
I'm pretty sure birdshot would be the way to go if you're shooting at a squirrel on the run, or a mouse.
Wouldn't want to just use a rifle.

No, there's also a reason for the term 'varmint rifle,' which is often in a small caliber, like a .22 or a .17; it's specifically meant for small game.

Shooting any land-based animal is simple, because it can only move in, generally, a predictable fashion. Along the ground. Even when they climb up into a tree, it's still not that complex.

When shooting birds, you need the ability to hit them in flight; can't always sit around waiting for them to land in range. Hence, birdshot.

I'm sure an expert marksman with a varmint rifle could hit average-sized birds in-flight; but even then a hummingbird presents a unique challenge.