Mega-Damage

[rogerd1]

Every setting has mega-damage stuff, and it is just the representation of high levels of damage or armour. So there is a lot of division on this. Is it a good thing, or bad thing?

Is it done well in Palladium? Not at all, in fact the idea is amazing, but execution is abysmal. So what about other ways to represent it?

DnD 5e
This is now present in DnD 5e in Dark Matter, essentially a science fiction setting. It also encompasses mega-magic, and mega-creatures.

Is it best to keep the mechanic of anything over 100 damage is essentially mega-damage?

Absolute Power
Tri-Stat system has really high AR stats to represent it, for instance High-Intensity Power Armour has an AR 80. To put this in perspective a long sword does 3 damage. A large catapult does 12 damage. A heavy machine gun also does 12 damage.

Weapon Levels 1-10 cover the range of ordinary melee weapons and guns, from knives to large-calibre sniper rifles, plus most moderate metahuman attacks.

Levels 10-20 cover the range of heavy machine guns and high-tech blaster weapons, as well as archaic siege weapons. Many forceful superpowered and magical attacks would fall into this range as well.

Levels 20-30 are in the range of tank or warship guns,anti-tank missiles, giant robot cannons, and increasingly destructive metahuman blasts and magical effects.

Levels 30+ are extremely powerful, such as the beam cannon of super vehicles, various heavy bombs andmissiles, mass drivers, or the world-shaking energies invoked by godlike superbeings.

Savage Worlds
This has a Heavy (+2) denoting this, meaning anything is essentially a mega-damage in nature. Savage Battlelords has now introduced Super Heavy. I am still trying to parse this bit. But is this a better way of doing it?

In Absolute Power it takes away the dice rolling aspect of damage, but it also allows objects that would not be damaged by anything less than something possessing immense amounts of strength, or power.

Does the answer lie somewhere between the two?

[Sambot]

Every setting has mega-damage stuff, and it is just the representation of high levels of damage or armour. So there is a lot of division on this. Is it a good thing, or bad thing?

Is it done well in Palladium? Not at all, in fact the idea is amazing, but execution is abysmal. So what about other ways to represent it?

I never figured out D&D so I can't speak to that. Savage Worlds sounds overly complicated.

I think mega-damage works. For those that don't like MDC, it can be converted to AR/ SDC. The only real pet peeve I have with mega-damage is that hand held weapons can do more damage than a tank cannons. I get the focus is on the individual but then I picture the scene from Kelly's Heroes. The one where Kelly, Big Joe, and Odd Ball walk down the street towards the Tiger Tank. If their hand guns could destroy a tank, that Tiger should be retreating. Fortunately, GMs do have the power to introduce House Rules. The thing with House Rules is that they don't work at every table. I wouldn't mind if there were some official options but I wouldn't rewrite all the rules. Some people like blowing away tanks with hand guns.

[rogerd1]

I never figured out D&D so I can't speak to that. Savage Worlds sounds overly complicated.

It works the same way in DnD as in PB, sort of.
Anything MDC is utterly immune to any damage from smaller weapons.

I think mega-damage works. For those that don't like MDC, it can be converted to AR/ SDC.

Yes it can, which is why I mentioned Absolute Power, but thing is what AR would you give something like that?
And that can be tricky.

It would also call for uniformity in weapon damage rules, such that nothing would break the AR balance / restrictions placed upon it.

The only real pet peeve I have with mega-damage is that hand held weapons can do more damage than a tank cannons. I get the focus is on the individual but then I picture the scene from Kelly's Heroes. The one where Kelly, Big Joe, and Odd Ball walk down the street towards the Tiger Tank. If their hand guns could destroy a tank, that Tiger should be retreating. Fortunately, GMs do have the power to introduce House Rules. The thing with House Rules is that they don't work at every table. I wouldn't mind if there were some official options but I wouldn't rewrite all the rules. Some people like blowing away tanks with hand guns.

Yeah, and I get it.
But the truth is that this is PB being a bit lazy to be honest. Could a small handgun blow up a tank, they do in comics. In fact let's move from comics, and look at say Star Trek Voyager where that 20th Century guy was using a 27th Century phaser. Utterly disintegrated a large car, pickup, from what I remember.

Poof, gone!

But that then needs to be a function of tech level too.

[NMI]

I think MDC works just fine in Palladium.
I also like how it works in Savage Worlds.

[Sambot]

I never figured out D&D so I can't speak to that. Savage Worlds sounds overly complicated.

It works the same way in DnD as in PB, sort of.
Anything MDC is utterly immune to any damage from smaller weapons.

It's the sort of I don't understand.

I think mega-damage works. For those that don't like MDC, it can be converted to AR/ SDC.

Yes it can, which is why I mentioned Absolute Power, but thing is what AR would you give something like that?
And that can be tricky.

It would also call for uniformity in weapon damage rules, such that nothing would break the AR balance / restrictions placed upon it.

I thought I saw a conversion rule for that but I can't find it. Since the Patton II Tank has an AR of 18, the High Tech Tank has an AR of 15, and the Walker Bulldog Tank has an AR of 14. I'd probably go with something similar. Maybe vary it some so a Power armor isn't quite as strong as a giant robot.

The only real pet peeve I have with mega-damage is that hand held weapons can do more damage than a tank cannons. I get the focus is on the individual but then I picture the scene from Kelly's Heroes. The one where Kelly, Big Joe, and Odd Ball walk down the street towards the Tiger Tank. If their hand guns could destroy a tank, that Tiger should be retreating. Fortunately, GMs do have the power to introduce House Rules. The thing with House Rules is that they don't work at every table. I wouldn't mind if there were some official options but I wouldn't rewrite all the rules. Some people like blowing away tanks with hand guns.

Yeah, and I get it.
But the truth is that this is PB being a bit lazy to be honest. Could a small handgun blow up a tank, they do in comics. In fact let's move from comics, and look at say Star Trek Voyager where that 20th Century guy was using a 27th Century phaser. Utterly disintegrated a large car, pickup, from what I remember.

Poof, gone!

But that then needs to be a function of tech level too.

I must have missed that comic and that episode. What happens when a phaser is fired at a 27th Century vehicle? What happens when those vehicles fire back. If a Coalition Trooper fired a any MDC weapon at a SDC car, the car would be gone. The trooper will also damage SDC Tanks and MDC Tanks. What bothers me is that the troopers weapon is just as powerful or more so than that of the main gun on a tan or robot. I get the game is about individuals but a tank shouldn't a 120mm tank cannon be more dangerous than a guy with a laser rifle? If an individual can carry more firepower than a robot or tank, why use the robot or tank? Except for that pet peeve, I think MDC works fine. We just up the damage when firing at fleshies and enforce the rules about damage going through battle armor and even power armor. Like Tony Stark getting cars dropped on him. He lived but he still got hurt.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think MDC works just fine in Palladium.
I also like how it works in Savage Worlds.

Seems reasonable to me.

[rogerd1]

I think MDC works just fine in Palladium.
I also like how it works in Savage Worlds.

It just is not balanced.

I thought I saw a conversion rule for that but I can't find it. Since the Patton II Tank has an AR of 18, the High Tech Tank has an AR of 15, and the Walker Bulldog Tank has an AR of 14. I'd probably go with something similar. Maybe vary it some so a Power armor isn't quite as strong as a giant robot.

So that would mean that grenade would damage a mega-damage structure, as a good part of it would beat the AR rating.

I must have missed that comic and that episode.

https://youtu.be/gW6FNnEC5kk?t=13

Here is Hulk destroying a concrete bunker, which would be MDC.

https://youtu.be/25k7Zs_c5FM?t=34

Iron Man in Veronica, MDC armour.

What happens when a phaser is fired at a 27th Century vehicle? What happens when those vehicles fire back. If a Coalition Trooper fired a any MDC weapon at a SDC car, the car would be gone. The trooper will also damage SDC Tanks and MDC Tanks. What bothers me is that the troopers weapon is just as powerful or more so than that of the main gun on a tan or robot. I get the game is about individuals but a tank shouldn't a 120mm tank cannon be more dangerous than a guy with a laser rifle? If an individual can carry more firepower than a robot or tank, why use the robot or tank? Except for that pet peeve, I think MDC works fine. We just up the damage when firing at fleshies and enforce the rules about damage going through battle armor and even power armor. Like Tony Stark getting cars dropped on him. He lived but he still got hurt.

This is where the rules explicitly do not work, RAW, and in showcases an example of why MDC rules don't work currently.

[NMI]

I think MDC works just fine in Palladium.
I also like how it works in Savage Worlds.

It just is not balanced.

I agree that certain things about it are unbalanced, but overall, I think it works just fine.

[rogerd1]

I agree that certain things about it are unbalanced, but overall, I think it works just fine.

What it needs is essentially breaking down into categories, such that everyone does the essentially the same damage based upon that. It would equalise stuff out.

So say when it comes to MDC Handguns (and I'll use this just for ease of visualisation), you could have Low, or Medium Damage. This would also apply to magic, powers, and such. It would all do the same to keep everyone on an even keel.

Then for say MDC Rifle, had Low, Medium, and Heavy to reflect not jut distance, but penetration, and damage. Then do something similar with heavier type weapons.

The same would apply to various types of armour. Everyone is equal, and it ensures that no one polity in Rifts is capable of walking all over the others. Sure one my have a specialisation in one area, but a weakness in another. Thus it ensures mechanical, and internal balance.

[Grazzik]

House rule what you like... that is your right as a GM or player (with your GM's approval). I personally house rule a 10:1 conversion to SDC because I like to give wilderness bandits totting rusted AKs a chance.

However, I agree with the number of folks who have already said that MD if fine as is if the game is played RAW. Should an energy pistol burn a hole through a sedan in a single shot? Sure. Should a better energy pistol with enhanced tech completely melt the sedan into a bubbling pool of molten metal and plastics? No reason why not. Should a heavy plasma rifle carried by infantry have the same damage as the main gun of a light MD tank? Sure, it is the future after all and there be dragons. Should there be equivalence across armaments throughout the world of Rifts? Absolutely not - that would be boring. Let's pause for a moment and consider three reasons why. Feel free to ignore, but consider whether players are being done a disservice by cleaning up the messiness of Rifts.

1. Metagaming: Rifts is at its core a hodge podge of settings. Some low tech, some deific, and many in between. This also means that the tools of survival in each setting should challenge the PCs without a guaranteed cake walk or TPK. There must always be the hope that PCs will survive if the game is to be fun. That means players should feel that they can take on that Lich with their Pew Pew... up until the point that they can't and they run away. If all energy pistols dealt the same level damage, life as a GM would be easy, but players may start to metagame. "Oh, just a pistol?" As it currently stands, players don't know until their opponent fires at them whether they wield a small Wilks Pew Pew or a compact transdimensional death ray from Omicron Delta IV. The same could be said about that rusted pistol the PCs grabbed from the back of Grandpa's closet. To know more than "They've got a gun!" is too much info. Same with armor - until the armor is hit, they shouldn't know whether it is made from dragon hide or paper mache. Perhaps the PCs should have spent more than 100cr on patching their armor. This sense of mystery endows the GM with the superpower of Surprise Players when it turns out the Lich is easily dispatched with a Pew Pew, while the Lich's Summoner has called in a few more nastier beasties.

2. Focus on fun, not stats: My head canon that explains why a Grunt can carry a weapon as devastating as tank's main gun is that perhaps in the wonky physics of Rifts there is a upper threshold to the amount of energy that can be channeled through a weapon with increasingly diminishing returns as the output is ramped up. Or maybe there is an Old One lurking in a sixth dimension slurping up the excess damage for breakfast. Who knows? The point is that it focuses the game on the Grunt carrying the weapon or the Gunner in the tank and not the weapon itself. Do they simply stand there pulling a trigger or do they do something worth talking about? This isn't reality, it's entertainment. If a big gun makes the PC as dangerous as a tank, so be it. Let them revel in their power and glory amongst the peasants... until they run into a dragon.

3. Embracing change: It is repeated throughout Rifts lore that villages, cities, nations, and species come and go over the centuries. If everyone had the same power level (even with differing strengths and weaknesses), then a stalemate would arise and heroism would be statistically averaged away. There'd be a bit of give and take as borders fluctuate, but in the long run Rifts history would generally become a standing wave. The books' historical progression shows this is not the case. Tension arises in the overarching story from the fact that the Coalition might be wiped out tomorrow by a virus rifted in by a bunch of Tolkeenites or Hades and Dyval might be so weakened by the Minion War that a few enterprising Splugorth might want to expand their territories. Look, I've played games where CS troops are rifted to Palladium. You'd think the extreme tech level difference would make the CS troopers world conquerors. Well, you'd be wrong. One bowl of bad seafood stew and that trooper is almost instantly out of their armor and as vulnerable as any peasant. The only constant is change and so I don't even worry about power creep in the books, because no matter what gizmo or spell or biosludge is devised by a faction on Rifts Earth, a GM's imagination is the deadliest weapon of all.

As a bonus reason to not standardize things, may I point out that if all energy pistols were effectively the same, why would a PC leave their hamlet to travel across the Waste just so they can buy a new pistol? Or even buy a new pistol at all if the old one is just as good. That removes two motivations for players to seek out adventure (seek out the different and earn credits to buy cool stuff). But... if things had a bit more oomph a hundred miles down the road, it just might be worth braving the dangers to get there and check it out.

[NMI]

I agree that certain things about it are unbalanced, but overall, I think it works just fine.

What it needs is essentially breaking down into categories, such that everyone does the essentially the same damage based upon that. It would equalise stuff out.

So say when it comes to MDC Handguns (and I'll use this just for ease of visualisation), you could have Low, or Medium Damage. This would also apply to magic, powers, and such. It would all do the same to keep everyone on an even keel.

Then for say MDC Rifle, had Low, Medium, and Heavy to reflect not jut distance, but penetration, and damage. Then do something similar with heavier type weapons.

The same would apply to various types of armour. Everyone is equal, and it ensures that no one polity in Rifts is capable of walking all over the others. Sure one my have a specialisation in one area, but a weakness in another. Thus it ensures mechanical, and internal balance.

Nice conept BUT not all things are created equal. Not all pistols in the real world do the same damage, penetration, range, etc... I personally would prefer for that attribute to carry over into my gaming. Makes it more relatedable. It also gives corporations throughout the world a reason to compete. Why should KLS even both making a new fangled energy pistol if it is just going to be the same as Cyberworks?

[Sambot]

I thought I saw a conversion rule for that but I can't find it. Since the Patton II Tank has an AR of 18, the High Tech Tank has an AR of 15, and the Walker Bulldog Tank has an AR of 14. I'd probably go with something similar. Maybe vary it some so a Power armor isn't quite as strong as a giant robot.

So that would mean that grenade would damage a mega-damage structure, as a good part of it would beat the AR rating.

Only if the grenade can beat the AR.

I must have missed that comic and that episode.

https://youtu.be/gW6FNnEC5kk?t=13

Here is Hulk destroying a concrete bunker, which would be MDC.

https://youtu.be/25k7Zs_c5FM?t=34

Iron Man in Veronica, MDC armour.

I can break concrete so it isn't MDC.

Iron Man's armor had a light pole shoved through the arm so it wouldn't be MDC either. It'd have SDC with a high AR but it wouldn't be MDC.

What happens when a phaser is fired at a 27th Century vehicle? What happens when those vehicles fire back. If a Coalition Trooper fired a any MDC weapon at a SDC car, the car would be gone. The trooper will also damage SDC Tanks and MDC Tanks. What bothers me is that the troopers weapon is just as powerful or more so than that of the main gun on a tan or robot. I get the game is about individuals but a tank shouldn't a 120mm tank cannon be more dangerous than a guy with a laser rifle? If an individual can carry more firepower than a robot or tank, why use the robot or tank? Except for that pet peeve, I think MDC works fine. We just up the damage when firing at fleshies and enforce the rules about damage going through battle armor and even power armor. Like Tony Stark getting cars dropped on him. He lived but he still got hurt.

This is where the rules explicitly do not work, RAW, and in showcases an example of why MDC rules don't work currently.

It works. The issue is that it's overly focused on individuals. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know I want my characters to live as long as possible. Preferably with all their original parts. It just gets a little wonky when looking at the bigger picture. Which is why house rules exist.

I agree that certain things about it are unbalanced, but overall, I think it works just fine.

What it needs is essentially breaking down into categories, such that everyone does the essentially the same damage based upon that. It would equalise stuff out.

So say when it comes to MDC Handguns (and I'll use this just for ease of visualisation), you could have Low, or Medium Damage. This would also apply to magic, powers, and such. It would all do the same to keep everyone on an even keel.

Then for say MDC Rifle, had Low, Medium, and Heavy to reflect not jut distance, but penetration, and damage. Then do something similar with heavier type weapons.

The same would apply to various types of armour. Everyone is equal, and it ensures that no one polity in Rifts is capable of walking all over the others. Sure one my have a specialisation in one area, but a weakness in another. Thus it ensures mechanical, and internal balance.

I agree with Grazzik and NMI. Things don't need to be equal. If things are easy there's no reason to grow and improve. If things are the same then there's no competition and no reason for trade. There's also no reason to take one character or race over another if they're all the same.

[rogerd1]

Only if the grenade can beat the AR.

In a word, no.

Page 288
S.D.C. attacks that inflict 1 -99 points of damage bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman. The attack might leave scratches, scuffs, little ding marks, and pit the paint job, but that's it.

RAW says I believe that anything MDC is immune to objects and weapons that are not MDC.

I can break concrete so it isn't MDC.

Proper military concrete bunkers are designed to withstand heavy yield weapons, i.e. MDC.
So this is wrong.

Iron Man's armor had a light pole shoved through the arm so it wouldn't be MDC either. It'd have SDC with a high AR but it wouldn't be MDC.

Again wrong.
The pole was shoved through his armour by an MDC character, Hulk.

Nice conept BUT not all things are created equal. Not all pistols in the real world do the same damage, penetration, range, etc... I personally would prefer for that attribute to carry over into my gaming. Makes it more relatedable. It also gives corporations throughout the world a reason to compete. Why should KLS even both making a new fangled energy pistol if it is just going to be the same as Cyberworks?

No they aren't, but there needs to be slight bonuses, but nothing too large.

For instance if two countries in Rifts have identical army sizes etc, but one has slightly superior weapons there is nothing to stop the superior one wiping out the other.

Have bonuses, sure, but small ones so as not to over balance the game.

[Wise_Owl]

Mega-demand is just one way of dealing with a common problem; Scale.

In plenty of RPG's the scope of the 'scale' of things falls within a pretty limited purview. Most creatures are around human sized, Most weapons are human scale personal weapons meant to hurt/kill things at a human scale. Things sometimes break down if there are really big creatures, but the systems tend to accommodate this.

Mega-damage was brought into the Robotech RPG to deal with the obvious question of 'what happens if you shoot a robot with a hand-gun' or 'what happens when the robot shoots it's weapon meant to damage other robots at a person'.

In Rifts of course the straight-forward issue collapses when you have magic, supernatural creatures, etc. You still need to resolve questions like; Can a Dragon take a shot from a battleship. Is there a magic spell that can disable a battleship? etc.

Palladium is hardly the only RPG to deal with these questions, and on a personal scale I think it works reasonably well. It's only really breaks down in two instances;

1. When the rules presentation breaks seriously with the fiction.

2. When people try and apply the abstraction of the rules as sort of in-world physics.

Palladiums system is decades old, built around a 'traditional' 'represent the world' model of gaming and has cracks there-in. It works well enough, but yeah, questions like 'well why isn't there a giga-damage or some other higher tear', 'how do I destroy a moon?', 'Is ther ea real reason hand weapons can damage a Splugorth at all?'.

I mean Rifts has been subjected to decades of a sort of internal cycle of rules changes, power-creep, power-resets, shifts in the narrative fiction, shifts in the rules to match the narrative fiction... or not... or back... or something, ofver and over again. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it doesn't. I recall the ancient hallowed days when the Coaltiion Heavy Armour of 80 M.D.C. was the best you could get, those poor people in Bushman armour or whatever with 40 M.D.C.? But yet the spiral that sort of spun out after Coalition War Machine came out never really stopped(some could argue it started in say South America, which I'd accept, though I think CWC served as a much more potent 'rewritting' than the power creep in the South America books).

[Sambot]

Only if the grenade can beat the AR.

In a word, no.

Yes

Page 288
S.D.C. attacks that inflict 1 -99 points of damage bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman. The attack might leave scratches, scuffs, little ding marks, and pit the paint job, but that's it.

RAW says I believe that anything MDC is immune to objects and weapons that are not MDC.

Rifts page 11
M.D.C. versus S.D.C.
1. Generally, 100 S.D.C. (or hit point) damage equals about one
M.D.C. point.
2. This also means that one point of Mega-Damage does approximately
100 S.D.C. points of damage.
3. Most conventional weapons do absolutely no damage to a megadamage
structure, even when combined for a total of 100 or more (See
example).

Combat Note: Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a
M.D.C. structure. S.D.C. missiles and explosives that can inflict over
100 S.D.C. points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage.
In these rare cases, approximately every 100 S.D.C. points of damage
equals one mega-damage point. Always round down S.D.C. damage.
For example: A missile that inflicts 450 S.D.C. equals 4 M.D.C.

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg356

One Mega-Dam age (M.D.) point inflicts the equivalent of 100 S.D.C., so a Mega-Damage weapon that does I D6 M.D. inflicts the equivalent of 100-600 S.D.C./Hit Point damage! This incredible advancement in technology turned an M.D. pistol or rifle into the equivalent of man-portable, heavy artillery cannon.
Mega-Dam age Capacity (M.D. C.) armor is impervious to S.D.C./Hit Point damage! Only S.D.C. weapons that inflict 1 00 or more S.D.C. points of damage can hurt M.D.C. armor. All other S.D.C. attacks ( 1 -99 points of damage) bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman. The attack might leave scratches, scuffs, little ding marks, and pit the paint j ob, but that's it. The character inside M.D.C. armor is safe and sound. And Armor Rating (A.R.) does not apply to M.D.C. structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body. Even then, however, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot to hit an unprotected part of the body.

This means that SDC can damage MDC provided it's sufficiently strong enough.

I can break concrete so it isn't MDC.

Proper military concrete bunkers are designed to withstand heavy yield weapons, i.e. MDC.
So this is wrong.

Those buildings were proper military bunkers.

Iron Man's armor had a light pole shoved through the arm so it wouldn't be MDC either. It'd have SDC with a high AR but it wouldn't be MDC.

Again wrong.
The pole was shoved through his armour by an MDC character, Hulk.

Considering Iron Man knocked out one of the Hulk's teeth, he isn't an MDC creature. Plus the pole would made of SDC material and wouldn't damage MDC. If Iron Man's suit was MDC, the light pole would have crumpled like foil against it. It doesn't matter whether or not the Hulk is MDC or not. His weapon, the pole, wasn't, so it wouldn't do MDC damage.

Nice conept BUT not all things are created equal. Not all pistols in the real world do the same damage, penetration, range, etc... I personally would prefer for that attribute to carry over into my gaming. Makes it more relatedable. It also gives corporations throughout the world a reason to compete. Why should KLS even both making a new fangled energy pistol if it is just going to be the same as Cyberworks?

No they aren't, but there needs to be slight bonuses, but nothing too large.

For instance if two countries in Rifts have identical army sizes etc, but one has slightly superior weapons there is nothing to stop the superior one wiping out the other.

Have bonuses, sure, but small ones so as not to over balance the game.

Except the fact that since both sides are identical in size, the slightly inferior army is capable of doing enough damage to the slightly superior army to ensure it's destruction by other forces. And that doesn't get into things like tactics or positions.

[ShadowLogan]

Mega-demand is just one way of dealing with a common problem; Scale.

Actually I think the whole/only-real issue with MDC system boils down to its a sense of scale, or lack there of.

For a given unit of mass, EBA offers the better return on investment for the level of MDC it provides something like #.# per kg, but a giant robot or even power armor is more like 0.#### per kg. (I can look up more specific numbers if you want, I just don't have the exact numbers available at the moment, though a post on this topic might still exist).

We also see it in terms of weapon performance. The Triax Devestator Robot (WB5) in the artwork has that BFG Ion cannon on its shoulder. The smaller Triax Forager has Ion Cannons to with the same range in a smaller package. Even the damage isn't out of place (2x Forager guns = 1/2 the damage output in a smaller package), then there are examples of mecha weapons that are roughly on par with other man-portables (exempting payload).

I do think it would be fair to say that the main issue with MDC is going to boil down to its lack of scale.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mega-demand is just one way of dealing with a common problem; Scale.

Actually I think the whole/only-real issue with MDC system boils down to its a sense of scale, or lack there of.

For a given unit of mass, EBA offers the better return on investment for the level of MDC it provides something like #.# per kg, but a giant robot or even power armor is more like 0.#### per kg. (I can look up more specific numbers if you want, I just don't have the exact numbers available at the moment, though a post on this topic might still exist).

We also see it in terms of weapon performance. The Triax Devestator Robot (WB5) in the artwork has that BFG Ion cannon on its shoulder. The smaller Triax Forager has Ion Cannons to with the same range in a smaller package. Even the damage isn't out of place (2x Forager guns = 1/2 the damage output in a smaller package), then there are examples of mecha weapons that are roughly on par with other man-portables (exempting payload).

I do think it would be fair to say that the main issue with MDC is going to boil down to its lack of scale.

I'd say that's not even a problem with mega-damage, but just a problem with Palladium.
If Rifts was entirely an SDC setting, I have trouble imagining the same issues would NOT still exist.

I think the main issue is that most everything is scaled around human-sized characters, so the further you get away from that more things break down.
An average human has 10 HP and 12 SDC (or something like that), but Palladium doesn't have Micro Damage so small things tend to be more powerful/durable than they should be: a mouse bite cannot inflict less than 1 SDC, because there is nothing smaller than that in the system, because the damage levels are based on human-sized things.
Conversely, when you're dealing with a giant robot or a tank, while mega-damage was created specifically to address things on that scale, Palladium couldn't help but bring mega-damage down to the human scale of things; humans are the baseline, the center.
Palladium would not design any kind of tank or giant robot or Cthulu-like monster that a group of humans could not potentially take down using some kind of weapons and armor.

Rifts wants to have that David vs Goliath feel, but without the real-world odds of David getting quickly murdered.
David is their protagonist, and Goliath's power levels are going to be limited by David's own power level.
He might have a tough fight, BUT Palladium will not generally stick him with an unwinnable fight as long as he's prepared/equipped and has some kind of decent plan.

The Glitter Boy, for example, is THE top power armor in the game as far as standard Rifts Earth goes.
But when Rifts initially came out, the mighty Boom Gun's 3d6x10 MD was matched by the potential output of something like the JA-11's Ion Beam doing a full-mag burst.
The GB can take the hit better, and it can dish out that level of damage a lot faster for higher DPM one on one, but if you have a GB vs 2-3 infantry with JA-11s they have a good chance to take down the GB before it gets a second shot off.
While in the real world, 2-3 infantry with rifles will NOT be able to take out a top of the line tank.

The Burst/Spray rules were nerfed because they were too deadly, but I rather suspect they were more specifically nerfed because they were too deadly for humans in body armor, not because they were too deadly for giant power armor, tanks, or dragons.

[ShadowLogan]

I'd say that's not even a problem with mega-damage, but just a problem with Palladium.
If Rifts was entirely an SDC setting, I have trouble imagining the same issues would NOT still exist.

I think the main issue is that most everything is scaled around human-sized characters, so the further you get away from that more things break down.

I do not dispute that it could also a problem in an SDC setting, I never said it couldn't also exist in a pure SDC system. However the SDC system is a bit more complex with AR (natural and artificial) and if its used PV (Penetration Value).

The reality is that Rifts didn't so much create much of the problems in the MDC system as it inherited it from its precursor. Rifts was first published in 1990, the RT Sentinels II RPG (which included magic and psionic using aliens at MDC levels, and MDC alien/creatures) came out circa 1987-8 (I've seen both years in a quick internet search). The 1st RT RPG (main book) came out in 1986, and while it had personal MDC "armor" and "weapons" they where achieved by short-handed versions of high performance SDC gear (x1 exception, but it was bulky and was out performed by even "light" mecha versions). Later RT books sort of forced their hand in introducing personal-scale MDC gear as we know it, along with MDC creatures as they adapted depictions in the later two arcs of the show (Sentinels I'm not sure...) and broke the "scale" factor that the 1st era had managed to get right to some extent.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that's not even a problem with mega-damage, but just a problem with Palladium.
If Rifts was entirely an SDC setting, I have trouble imagining the same issues would NOT still exist.

I think the main issue is that most everything is scaled around human-sized characters, so the further you get away from that more things break down.

I do not dispute that it could also a problem in an SDC setting, I never said it couldn't also exist in a pure SDC system. However the SDC system is a bit more complex with AR (natural and artificial) and if its used PV (Penetration Value).

Fair enough.
In fact, that's one reason I like Mega-Damage; it's simpler than AR/PV, and clearer.

The reality is that Rifts didn't so much create much of the problems in the MDC system as it inherited it from its precursor. Rifts was first published in 1990, the RT Sentinels II RPG (which included magic and psionic using aliens at MDC levels, and MDC alien/creatures) came out circa 1987-8 (I've seen both years in a quick internet search). The 1st RT RPG (main book) came out in 1986, and while it had personal MDC "armor" and "weapons" they where achieved by short-handed versions of high performance SDC gear (x1 exception, but it was bulky and was out performed by even "light" mecha versions). Later RT books sort of forced their hand in introducing personal-scale MDC gear as we know it, along with MDC creatures as they adapted depictions in the later two arcs of the show (Sentinels I'm not sure...) and broke the "scale" factor that the 1st era had managed to get right to some extent.

Again agreed!

Rifts cranked it up a notch or two, though.
Robotech's power creep was still lower than Rifts' starting line.

[Grazzik]

I'd say that's not even a problem with mega-damage, but just a problem with Palladium.
If Rifts was entirely an SDC setting, I have trouble imagining the same issues would NOT still exist.

I think the main issue is that most everything is scaled around human-sized characters, so the further you get away from that more things break down.

I do not dispute that it could also a problem in an SDC setting, I never said it couldn't also exist in a pure SDC system. However the SDC system is a bit more complex with AR (natural and artificial) and if its used PV (Penetration Value).

Fair enough.
In fact, that's one reason I like Mega-Damage; it's simpler than AR/PV, and clearer.

MDC RAW makes for a decent simple high-powered game, but it risks turning into a slog fest between whoever can carry the most ablative armor or have the toughest hide. I've found AR a simple means of adding an element of the unexpected which s missing from MD combat.

When playing a MDC/SDC 10:1 game with AR, our house rule is that rolls under AR do full dmg to armor, over AR half to armor and half to wearer (think trauma from backface deformation, rather than penetration). This way there is still a risk to squishies of an instakill, amping up the tension and drama of a gunfight, but it can also give players the benefit of better salvage after a battle... namely salvaging undamaged plates or other armor components that might be used to patch up damaged armor or even cobble together whole suits from multiple damaged suits. After MDC RAW fights, there often isn't armor left to salvage limiting loot to e-clips, weapons, and whatever's in backpacks. Our armorer-type PCs have made a point that a single looted/repaired suit can be as valuable as 2 or 3 e-rifles or a dozen e-clips.

Also, at 10:1, squishies might survive a laser blast or two but fights still don't last too long. By speeding up gameplay and making fights deadlier, it encourages players to either play smart or up their AR through added armor/tech/psi/magic in order to survive. With EBA generally being AR 16, at least 20% of shots from the even the most inept opponent can be dangerous. And nat 20 rolls are usually highly dramatic events. Players have learned the value of layered defense, forcefields, defilade and smoke to increase their AR and their opponents' strike penalties.

Scaling up to vehicles and giant robots is simply a matter of house ruling added AR to penetrate through to operators / passengers. HU2 has decent enough rules for internal damage to vehicles due to strikes over AR. The robot damage effects in CB1 work too but are less due to chance than the HU2 rules meaning players might be tempted to metagame in order to avoid the 60% dmg trigger.

[rogerd1]

This means that SDC can damage MDC provided it's sufficiently strong enough.

Good counterpoint, so that would mean that AR levels would have to start at 100 points, plus.

Considering Iron Man knocked out one of the Hulk's teeth, he isn't an MDC creature.

No, this is wrong.
On the grounds that he can lift heavier weights than a normal person, his suit is essentially power armour. This would mean he is generating greater force.

Plus the pole would made of SDC material and wouldn't damage MDC.If Iron Man's suit was MDC, the light pole would have crumpled like foil against it. It doesn't matter whether or not the Hulk is MDC or not. His weapon, the pole, wasn't, so it wouldn't do MDC damage.

Only S.D.C. weapons that inflict 1 00 or more S.D.C. points of damage can hurt M.D.C. armor. All other S.D.C. attacks ( 1 -99 points of damage) bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman

Didn't you quote the earlier?
So if it can exert greater than 100 points of damage it would.

https://youtu.be/oBqqI6NMeaM?t=53

Both Hulk and Iron Armour are MDC creatures.
And before you try to say that the Chitauri Leviathan is not an MDC creature - see below.

https://youtu.be/v2qpGwWrx0o?t=5

It literally bissects a building in half, which is an MDC structure.

Except the fact that since both sides are identical in size, the slightly inferior army is capable of doing enough damage to the slightly superior army to ensure it's destruction by other forces. And that doesn't get into things like tactics or positions.

That only works when the weapons you use are not capable of destroying a city block. When you wield this kind of weaponry, tactics become a bit of a moot point, as does natural cover.

fact that since both sides are identical in size, the slightly inferior army is capable of doing enough damage to the slightly superior army to ensure it's destruction by other forces. And that doesn't get into things like tactics or positions.[/quote]

[Sambot]

This means that SDC can damage MDC provided it's sufficiently strong enough.

Good counterpoint, so that would mean that AR levels would have to start at 100 points, plus.

I don't think so. Leather Armor is going to have a lot lower AR than Plate Armor.

Considering Iron Man knocked out one of the Hulk's teeth, he isn't an MDC creature.

No, this is wrong.
On the grounds that he can lift heavier weights than a normal person, his suit is essentially power armour. This would mean he is generating greater force.

That doesn't mean either are MDC. The pole went through the suits arm. The suit injured the Hulk. For the pole to go through the suit, the suit would have to be SDC. For the suit to injure the Hulk the Hulk would have to be SDC. The Hulk is like a full sized Zentraedi. Strong enough to give and take MDC punishment but still an SDC creature.

Plus the pole would made of SDC material and wouldn't damage MDC.If Iron Man's suit was MDC, the light pole would have crumpled like foil against it. It doesn't matter whether or not the Hulk is MDC or not. His weapon, the pole, wasn't, so it wouldn't do MDC damage.

Only S.D.C. weapons that inflict 1 00 or more S.D.C. points of damage can hurt M.D.C. armor. All other S.D.C. attacks ( 1 -99 points of damage) bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman

Didn't you quote the earlier?
So if it can exert greater than 100 points of damage it would.

https://youtu.be/oBqqI6NMeaM?t=53

Both Hulk and Iron Armour are MDC creatures.
And before you try to say that the Chitauri Leviathan is not an MDC creature - see below.

https://youtu.be/v2qpGwWrx0o?t=5

It literally bissects a building in half, which is an MDC structure.

Except the pole isn't strong enough to inflict MDC.

No the Chitauri Leviathan isn't an MDC creature. It does have a very high AR and huge amount of SDC. Far higher AR and SDC than the building. Iron Man's laser does nothing to it's armor proves that. If they were MDC each hit would do damage. The laser couldn't get past the AR and so did nothing and would do nothing. He'd run out of power before the laser did anything.

Except the fact that since both sides are identical in size, the slightly inferior army is capable of doing enough damage to the slightly superior army to ensure it's destruction by other forces. And that doesn't get into things like tactics or positions.

That only works when the weapons you use are not capable of destroying a city block. When you wield this kind of weaponry, tactics become a bit of a moot point, as does natural cover.

Which means that both sides would be destroyed. It's just one will have cities to loot and plunder after and one won't.

[guardiandashi]

This means that SDC can damage MDC provided it's sufficiently strong enough.

Good counterpoint, so that would mean that AR levels would have to start at 100 points, plus.

I don't think so. Leather Armor is going to have a lot lower AR than Plate Armor.

Considering Iron Man knocked out one of the Hulk's teeth, he isn't an MDC creature.

No, this is wrong.
On the grounds that he can lift heavier weights than a normal person, his suit is essentially power armour. This would mean he is generating greater force.

That doesn't mean either are MDC. The pole went through the suits arm. The suit injured the Hulk. For the pole to go through the suit, the suit would have to be SDC. For the suit to injure the Hulk the Hulk would have to be SDC. The Hulk is like a full sized Zentraedi. Strong enough to give and take MDC punishment but still an SDC creature.

Plus the pole would made of SDC material and wouldn't damage MDC.If Iron Man's suit was MDC, the light pole would have crumpled like foil against it. It doesn't matter whether or not the Hulk is MDC or not. His weapon, the pole, wasn't, so it wouldn't do MDC damage.

Only S.D.C. weapons that inflict 1 00 or more S.D.C. points of damage can hurt M.D.C. armor. All other S.D.C. attacks ( 1 -99 points of damage) bounce off the armor like bullets bouncing off Superman

Didn't you quote the earlier?
So if it can exert greater than 100 points of damage it would.

https://youtu.be/oBqqI6NMeaM?t=53

Both Hulk and Iron Armour are MDC creatures.
And before you try to say that the Chitauri Leviathan is not an MDC creature - see below.

https://youtu.be/v2qpGwWrx0o?t=5

It literally bissects a building in half, which is an MDC structure.

Except the pole isn't strong enough to inflict MDC.

No the Chitauri Leviathan isn't an MDC creature. It does have a very high AR and huge amount of SDC. Far higher AR and SDC than the building. Iron Man's laser does nothing to it's armor proves that. If they were MDC each hit would do damage. The laser couldn't get past the AR and so did nothing and would do nothing. He'd run out of power before the laser did anything.

Except the fact that since both sides are identical in size, the slightly inferior army is capable of doing enough damage to the slightly superior army to ensure it's destruction by other forces. And that doesn't get into things like tactics or positions.

That only works when the weapons you use are not capable of destroying a city block. When you wield this kind of weaponry, tactics become a bit of a moot point, as does natural cover.

Which means that both sides would be destroyed. It's just one will have cities to loot and plunder after and one won't.

Plus the pole would made of SDC material and wouldn't damage MDC.If Iron Man's suit was MDC, the light pole would have crumpled like foil against it. It doesn't matter whether or not the Hulk is MDC or not. His weapon, the pole, wasn't, so it wouldn't do MDC damage.

this is not actually true. sdc items (weapons) can do MDC, usually once. if you do more damage than the object can take it is shattered or otherwise destroyed in the process

so Hulk ramming a light pole through iron mans armor is almost guaranteed to destroy the light pole in the process (which totally fits with the marvel universe)

[Killer Cyborg]

Here are rules I can remember that might be relevant to the conversation:

RUE 286
Optional Rule: Normal weapons are in danger of breaking when wielded by somebody with Supernatural Strength. A good rule of tumb is to assume a weapon is in danger of breaking whenever total damage inflicted exceeds more than three times the weapon's maximum base damage--in the case of a 2d4 sword, more than 24 points of damage might break it. Every time that much damage is inflicted, there is a 01-30% chance that the weapon will break. Heavy, sturdy weapons, and very well-crafted blades (a master smith's katana, for example) can withstand more damage, do not roll unless damage exceeds five times the weapon's maximum damage. Magical weapons and artifacts are basically indestructible and are at no risk of breaking.

(Keep in mind this rule is both optional and only specified to apply to Supernatural PS, not Robotic)
(Also note that this rule might be a direct reprint of PFRPG2's version, and "normal weapons" may be intended to mean "non-magical," not necessarily "non-MDC." Personally, I take it to mean SDC weapons in the Rifts settings, but it's not 100% clear.)

RUE 285
Characters with Augmented Strength, a category which is specified to include SDC-as-default characters like Juicers and Crazies, who have a PS of 24+ can inflict Mega-Damage with their punches and kicks as per the table in this section.
Usually it's with a Power Punch, but there is no mention of their SDC bodies being damaged by inflicting Mega-Damage to MDC targets.

[Sambot]

Here are rules I can remember that might be relevant to the conversation:

RUE 286
Optional Rule: Normal weapons are in danger of breaking when wielded by somebody with Supernatural Strength. A good rule of tumb is to assume a weapon is in danger of breaking whenever total damage inflicted exceeds more than three times the weapon's maximum base damage--in the case of a 2d4 sword, more than 24 points of damage might break it. Every time that much damage is inflicted, there is a 01-30% chance that the weapon will break. Heavy, sturdy weapons, and very well-crafted blades (a master smith's katana, for example) can withstand more damage, do not roll unless damage exceeds five times the weapon's maximum damage. Magical weapons and artifacts are basically indestructible and are at no risk of breaking.

(Keep in mind this rule is both optional and only specified to apply to Supernatural PS, not Robotic)
(Also note that this rule might be a direct reprint of PFRPG2's version, and "normal weapons" may be intended to mean "non-magical," not necessarily "non-MDC." Personally, I take it to mean SDC weapons in the Rifts settings, but it's not 100% clear.)

RUE 285
Characters with Augmented Strength, a category which is specified to include SDC-as-default characters like Juicers and Crazies, who have a PS of 24+ can inflict Mega-Damage with their punches and kicks as per the table in this section.
Usually it's with a Power Punch, but there is no mention of their SDC bodies being damaged by inflicting Mega-Damage to MDC targets.

Thanks. That does help. There's also these.

Rifts UE page 288 and 289.
No A.R. for Mega-Damage Capacity (M.D.C.) machines or living beings. Either the attack hits or misses. Attackers roll to strike and
monstrous, M.D.C. opponents roll to dodge or parry as usual. If the M.D.C. object or Mega-Damage creature is struck, it takes damage.

And HU 2E page 63
A Natural Armor Rating (A. R.) applies to superbeings, mutants, aliens and creatures who have or transform to have a tough skin or hard body covering, like Bio-Armor and Alter Physical Structure: Stone, etc. The natural armor is so tough and resilient, that any strike below the character's Natural A.R. does no damage! It might scuff or scratch the body, but there is no substantive damage. A roll
above the Natural A.R. inflicts damage, but, in this instance, the damage is first deducted from the character's (often large amount
of) physical S.D.C. - S.D.C. typically afforded by the natural armor/transformation. Such immense amounts of S.D.C. can be
thought of as superhuman endurance to pain and physical punishment.


If the Hulk and Ironman were MDC then each attack made by the other would inflict damage, per the rule in Rifts. Instead, we see the Hulk often inflicting damage to Ironman but Ironman seldom doing damage to Hulk. That's because while every hit to Ironman reduces the SDC of the armor, hits against the Hulk must exceed his Natural AR to do damage.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Every setting has mega-damage stuff,

there are two things wrong this statement.
1: Each Game is a Game into and of itself. And not "just a setting".
2: MD/MDC is limited to the MDC games of Pallidumbooks.

[Blue_Lion]

I agree that certain things about it are unbalanced, but overall, I think it works just fine.

What it needs is essentially breaking down into categories, such that everyone does the essentially the same damage based upon that. It would equalise stuff out.

So say when it comes to MDC Handguns (and I'll use this just for ease of visualisation), you could have Low, or Medium Damage. This would also apply to magic, powers, and such. It would all do the same to keep everyone on an even keel.

Then for say MDC Rifle, had Low, Medium, and Heavy to reflect not jut distance, but penetration, and damage. Then do something similar with heavier type weapons.

The same would apply to various types of armour. Everyone is equal, and it ensures that no one polity in Rifts is capable of walking all over the others. Sure one my have a specialisation in one area, but a weakness in another. Thus it ensures mechanical, and internal balance.

I think overly focus about balance spoils things.

Tracking as number of points works fine.

The idea that a dragon should be no harder to kill than a vagabond seams unrealistic.

Even in games that have a system like you just proposed, such as shadow run, it is still possible for 1 character to walk all over the others.

Honestly this seams to be about ruining a game that is fun to make it match your idea of what fair should be.

The only way to truly make every one balanced is to make everyone the same. So that would be no customization, does not sound like a fun game.

[rogerd1]

I don't think so. Leather Armor is going to have a lot lower AR than Plate Armor.

Dude, we're talking about MDC armour ratings, not plate!
So converting MDC into an AR rating, by RAW would require it be at least 100 points!

That doesn't mean either are MDC. The pole went through the suits arm. The suit injured the Hulk. For the pole to go through the suit, the suit would have to be SDC. For the suit to injure the Hulk the Hulk would have to be SDC. The Hulk is like a full sized Zentraedi. Strong enough to give and take MDC punishment but still an SDC creature.

No the Chitauri Leviathan isn't an MDC creature. It does have a very high AR and huge amount of SDC. Far higher AR and SDC than the building. Iron Man's laser does nothing to it's armor proves that. If they were MDC each hit would do damage. The laser couldn't get past the AR and so did nothing and would do nothing. He'd run out of power before the laser did anything.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what MDC and SDC armour actually are! They are exactly the same thing, the measure is purely a game mechanic.

The Hulk frequently takes damage that would easily be over 100 points in game mechanics terms (fighter jets shooting at him), withstanding rockets! This makes it an MDC creature, by RAW - whether this is done with MDC points or AR is avbsolutely irrelevant - game mechanics are an abstraction to demonstrate such. Same too for Iron Man's Veronica suit, which is more a mecha.

Both are MDC or very high AR creatures (at least over 100 points).

Which means that both sides would be destroyed. It's just one will have cities to loot and plunder after and one won't.

Again a fundamental misunderstanding of MDC. When a pistol can literally destroy a building, there would be no city left!

1: Each Game is a Game into and of itself. And not "just a setting".
2: MD/MDC is limited to the MDC games of Pallidumbooks.

Each game is a setting, using the same rules (RAW), tweaked to fit - said setting.
And in fact mega-damage appears in Dark Matter 5e, using the same principles.
So doubly wrong here.

I think overly focus about balance spoils things.

This is very lazy because balance is what makes a good rpg. Sure there are slight issues here and there, and let's use 5e as an example here - the imbalance between magic-users and fighters is semi-fixed. Savage Pathfinder goes even further to equalise this, turning fighters into a badass again.

Both of which can do mega-damage by purchasing Heavy (+2).

The idea that a dragon should be no harder to kill than a vagabond seams unrealistic.

You do realise that is the exact meaning of balance, right?
So having a vagabond in a party, and a dragon would be unbalanced. In fact Heroes Unlimited mentions this concept when referring to Mega-Heroes.

Even in games that have a system like you just proposed, such as shadow run, it is still possible for 1 character to walk all over the others.

Honestly this seams to be about ruining a game that is fun to make it match your idea of what fair should be.

Trying to justify this is just laziness, and this is in part what the GM is for, to ensure balance. Plus the actual game should be tailored as such. Look at SWADE Supers, or M&M - both point buys. Balance easier.

The only way to truly make every one balanced is to make everyone the same. So that would be no customization, does not sound like a fun game.

You clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what game balance is all about. In a well designed game, with balance built into it, having characters be different things, and have something to offer in a party is what it is all about!

[ShadowLogan]

Dude, we're talking about MDC armour ratings, not plate!
So converting MDC into an AR rating, by RAW would require it be at least 100 points!

No it would not. 100 SDC points = 1 MDC point w/n an MDC setting, though converting to an SDC setting (like taking things from Rifts to PF/HU) the conversion factor is more like 1:1 per RAW (with a variety of exceptions using another ratio).

AR or Armor Rating in the Palladium system is something else as that is a target number in order to do damage (and the type of AR is also important, natural or artificial or vehicle). Per RAW for converting to a pure SDC setting (CB1r pg30-2, or D&G pg 18-19) the AR would be determined by classification of the item in question and not the MDC value, a Dragon races "have an average A.R. of 14." (CB1r pg31) and a SAMAS Power Armor have "an A.R. of 16 or 17" (CB1r pg32). In point of fact I don't think you can have an AR above 20 in RAW (most AR's I know of top out at around 18).

Mega-Damage System in a sense is also implementing things on a simplified Penetration Value alternative sub-system of the SDC system that seldom gets used or even mentioned (that probably works better than the common AR). IIRC Penetration Values are found in the "Compendium of Modern Weapons" (I don't have the book, a friend does).

This is very lazy because balance is what makes a good rpg.

I think you misunderstand how Rifts/Palladium is balanced and expect it to follow the same model as other RPG makers. Rifts allows you to have a Dragon and squishy Vegabond human in the same party, you call that unbalanced. Well duh, Palladium makes no attempt to sugar coat their differences like you might see in some other RPG in the name of participation "balance".

[rogerd1]

AR or Armor Rating in the Palladium system is something else as that is a target number in order to do damage (and the type of AR is also important, natural or artificial or vehicle). Per RAW for converting to a pure SDC setting (CB1r pg30-2, or D&G pg 18-19) the AR would be determined by classification of the item in question and not the MDC value, a Dragon races "have an average A.R. of 14." (CB1r pg31) and a SAMAS Power Armor have "an A.R. of 16 or 17" (CB1r pg32). In point of fact I don't think you can have an AR above 20 in RAW (most AR's I know of top out at around 18).

So yes, they are exactly both the same, they are two just ways of demonstrating the same principle. As per RAW anything doing less than 100 points will not damage an MDC, thus by default it will have an AR 100.

Now this has a further effect by showing that the Conversion Book is utter rubbish as it totally does not take into account weapons properly. So a starship hull designed to tank nukes (take no damage), in SDC terms, must have an AR that is ridiculously high otherwise a grenade would damage it - which is utter nonsense!

I think you misunderstand how Rifts/Palladium is balanced and expect it to follow the same model as other RPG makers. Rifts allows you to have a Dragon and squishy Vegabond human in the same party, you call that unbalanced. Well duh, Palladium makes no attempt to sugar coat their differences like you might see in some other RPG in the name of participation "balance".

Then it isn't balanced then, is it? This is not rocket science!

[Killer Cyborg]

I think you misunderstand how Rifts/Palladium is balanced and expect it to follow the same model as other RPG makers. Rifts allows you to have a Dragon and squishy Vegabond human in the same party, you call that unbalanced. Well duh, Palladium makes no attempt to sugar coat their differences like you might see in some other RPG in the name of participation "balance".

Then it isn't balanced then, is it? This is not rocket science!

"Balanced" has no set definition in gaming that is universally applied.
It's an arbitrary concept applied by random people in random ways.

I'd argue that a RMB Dragon and Vagabond are actually fairly well balanced depending on what adventure/campaign they're going on.
In straight combat, the dragon has an advantage.
But the Vagabond has more skills than a dragon, 17 skills at level 1 compared to 7 skills for a dragon, and the learns more skills faster than the dragon as they level up.
The Vagabond also levels up faster.
The Vagabond isn't hunted by the CS, and can travel through CS territory without worrying about getting pinged by Dog Boys.
The Vagabond can use standard armor and weapons without having to strip everything off every few hours in order to turn back into a dragon.

A party consisting of a Dragon Hatchling and a human Vagabond could work very well for many kinds of campaigns, with the Dragon providing muscle and magic while the Vagabond provides knowledge and skills.
And once the Vagabond gets some good armor and weapons, his damage output can even be higher than the Dragon's, unless the Dragon is using tech weapons or something, in which case they break even.
You have a Brick and a Brain character, which is pretty classic in the way of "balance" under many people's understandings of the term, in this case specifically it means that both characters have equal opportunity to shine and take center-stage during a well-balanced adventure that doesn't focus solely on combat situations in dragon-friendly territory.

If you want to say that things are NOT balanced, then you should probably give a better idea of what you personally mean by "balance," and how it applies (or fails to apply) to Rifts.
If your definition is strictly about unarmored combat ability, or even strictly about any kind of combat ability, then I don't personally consider your definition of "balance" to be well-balanced.

[Killer Cyborg]

AR or Armor Rating in the Palladium system is something else as that is a target number in order to do damage (and the type of AR is also important, natural or artificial or vehicle). Per RAW for converting to a pure SDC setting (CB1r pg30-2, or D&G pg 18-19) the AR would be determined by classification of the item in question and not the MDC value, a Dragon races "have an average A.R. of 14." (CB1r pg31) and a SAMAS Power Armor have "an A.R. of 16 or 17" (CB1r pg32). In point of fact I don't think you can have an AR above 20 in RAW (most AR's I know of top out at around 18).

So yes, they are exactly both the same, they are two just ways of demonstrating the same principle. As per RAW anything doing less than 100 points will not damage an MDC, thus by default it will have an AR 100.

How are you trying to use the term "AR" here?
Because in Palladium, AR is about strike rolls, not about damage amounts.

I think part of the arguing going on might well be that not everybody gets what you're trying to say.

[rogerd1]

How are you trying to use the term "AR" here?
Because in Palladium, AR is about strike rolls, not about damage amounts.

I think part of the arguing going on might well be that not everybody gets what you're trying to say.

Fair point, and you are absolutely correct.
I was thinking more in terms of how durable the armour is, similar to Runequest.

AR or Armor Rating in the Palladium system is something else as that is a target number in order to do damage (and the type of AR is also important, natural or artificial or vehicle). Per RAW for converting to a pure SDC setting (CB1r pg30-2, or D&G pg 18-19) the AR would be determined by classification of the item in question and not the MDC value, a Dragon races "have an average A.R. of 14." (CB1r pg31) and a SAMAS Power Armor have "an A.R. of 16 or 17" (CB1r pg32). In point of fact I don't think you can have an AR above 20 in RAW (most AR's I know of top out at around 18).

You are quite right, I apologise.

[Grazzik]

My 0.02 Credits worth re damage conversion...

1. Damage conversion MDC-SDC is an optional aspect open to a lot of interpretation / house rules, so if your players are open to it, it could also be a means to find the "balance" that works for you. Playing a 100:1 game simply adds a couple zeros to numbers while adding math to figure out AR etc. However, playing a 10:1 game can smooth out some of those rough edges that some may find jarring, but still make a distinction based on the advantages of high magic/high tech. Playing a 1:1 game is probably more appropriate for melee oriented games where technology is more for flavor than function, as it requires a lot of house ruling to increase the damage of heavy weapons like missiles and and such. To have a laser pistol do as much damage as a short sword doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but to each their own.

2. Armor Rating - Killer Cyborg is right... AR is the mechanism to see if a strike roll deals damage. ShadowLogan is right... references to MDC to SDC conversion wrt AR suggest giving values approx. 13-20. AR has no bearing on the amount of SDC or the conversion ratio (100:1, 10:1, etc.). As an example a Deadboy EBA presumably is on the heavy end, perhaps at AR 16. However, for other PB games, a full suit of medieval plate armor (PF pg 270) and a suit of Class 4 body armor (HU2 pg 343) both have AR 17. This makes sense to me as presumably the Deadboy EBA may have slightly less coverage or more joints to increase mobility, thereby increasing the number of weak spots where a shot may bypass the armor.

Side note, when playing MDC as SDC, my house rule allows for AR over 20 for large robots/vehicles with reinforced pilot compartments or where there are layered defenses like built in force fields. Our assumption is the RAW rule for AR was designed for only one layer of armor/cover, but with munchkin snipers often being able to get strike rolls in the mid to high 20s easily bypassing AR, it wouldn't make sense to have a single shot go through a robot's armor and pilot compartment and pilot body armor to hit the pilot. So, we play with AR being cumulative with each layer. We also assign +5 AR to pilot compartments as we couldn't find a RAW stat.

What I've never understood (and if someone could explain I'd appreciate it) is how wearing a helmet can add to AR even though the default is for damage to be dealt to the main body area. It's referenced in WB34 pg 41 and I think elsewhere, but I can't find the other obscure references at the moment. I much prefer the Dead Reign mechanic where the helmet has its own AR depending on the type of helmet...

3. Penetration Value - like AR, PV has no meaning in the context of MDC. To convert MDC to an SDC context, you would need to determine the appropriate PV for a weapon. As far as I can see in canon, there is no PV for a laser pistol or plasma cannon. Perhaps there are references in HU or NSS that I didn't find, but as I don't usually play with PV, I'll leave to those who do to figure it out.

4. Using references from other works, be they comic books, movies or other games, can be illuminating and very entertaining, but are fundamentally meaningless when it comes to PB game mechanics unless they were created with PB game mechanics in mind. The authors or creators of those works often incorporate effects or events to drive home a point in their own story or narrative. To try to convert the events in those works to PB game mechanics in order to showcase how or why RAW in a PB game should be interpreted can be a way to initiate a positive and constructive dialogue, but to hang one's argument on the finer points of the non-PB content is problematic at best. That said, perhaps there is appetite for more PB-related comic strips that showcase RAW and different effects through pictures, despite the mantra that "Art isn't canon"

[ShadowLogan]

So yes, they are exactly both the same, they are two just ways of demonstrating the same principle. As per RAW anything doing less than 100 points will not damage an MDC, thus by default it will have an AR 100.

No they are not exactly the same. 100 SDC = 1MDC, AR IS NOT EQUAL to SDC or MDC in any fashion, in point of fact MDC subjects can have AR values like Rifts Cyber Armor (MDC structure) has an AR, Triax Plain Clothes MDC armor has an AR, and I'm sure there are a few I'm not thinking of at the moment (IIRC the Spell Energy Field has an AR, and 1E RT one of the Destroids had an AR).

AR also functions differently depending on what type of AR you actually have in Palladium. A Natural AR you have to meet or beat it to do damage, an Artificial AR any roll below the AR does damage to the suit (assuming an otherwise successful strike roll) with a roll above the AR by-passing the armor completely and damaging the person inside. Vehicle AR works like Natural AR. When it comes to a MD attack roll, the AR is ignored, regardless of type.

Now other games might use the AR term differently, but in Palladium it has a specific meaning.

Now this has a further effect by showing that the Conversion Book is utter rubbish as it totally does not take into account weapons properly. So a starship hull designed to tank nukes (take no damage), in SDC terms, must have an AR that is ridiculously high otherwise a grenade would damage it - which is utter nonsense!

Dimensions that operate with MDC are per RAW operating at different dimensional laws than pure SDC settings. We know this since Magic, Psionics (some), and Super Powers all get beefed up to MD levels when coming from HU or PF (etc) dimensions. It is also canon that taking MD tech (or creatures) from an MDC universe to an SDC universe will alter it into an SDC object. The reverse is not true for SDC tech to MD setting, though some creatures can become MDC (usually those with SN PE or are CoM).

Then it isn't balanced then, is it? This is not rocket science!

Why does it have to be balanced? You keep saying things aren't balanced, but there is no real reason to balance things out the way you seem to be suggesting unless you are looking to get a "participation" trophy, Palladium doesn't sugar coat that you can have unbalanced scenarios just like in real life.

My first exposure to the Palladium/MDC system was with 1st Edition Robotech, the first use of said system. I suspect you'd find the settings early books (1-3) to be very unbalanced since you couldn't play an infantry guy that could engage the big mecha (and combat vehicles) with their MDC armor and weapons since human infantry gear was so weak (MDC achieved only by short hand), which is something you can sort of do in Rifts (and later 1E RT books). And to give you an idea of how "unbalanced" you'd probably find that scenario in 1E RT's early books, the best MDC weapon you could carry as an infantry man would be 1D10MD (with a ROF of 1 per melee IIRC with 2or3 MDC Body Armor, you'd need like 5 max damage hits to take down a weak 50MDC battle pod mecha who only has to hit you once (does 8MDC minimum with the PBCs, even the auto cannons are likely to shred you with one hit to with a short burst only needing to roll above minimum damage of 2).

[rogerd1]

Why does it have to be balanced? You keep saying things aren't balanced, but there is no real reason to balance things out the way you seem to be suggesting unless you are looking to get a "participation" trophy, Palladium doesn't sugar coat that you can have unbalanced scenarios just like in real life.

You are clearly misunderstanding what balance refers to. It is to members within a party, such that all must be able to contribute, equally, so that one single person is not doing everything. It is why in things like DnD you have a tank, a healer, ranged fighter etc. They all have something to contribute. See below quote from HU.

Heroes Unlimited page 178
Beware of Game Balance
The Mega-Hero can be a tricky character to play, and is not recommended for disruptive, domineering, or Hack-n-Slash players. Such characters are best suited for even tempered, subtle and experienced players or in a setting where themajority of (if not all) the characters are Mega-Heroes in a mega-powerful environment. Otherwise, game imbalance, trouble and hard feelings are inevitable.

Power Gamers and Hack-n-Slashers will have a field day with Mega-Heroes, but it may become a bore, or incredibly annoying, for the rest of the group.

It seems this has something to say on game balance amongst party members.

My first exposure to the Palladium/MDC system was with 1st Edition Robotech, the first use of said system. I suspect you'd find the settings early books (1-3) to be very unbalanced since you couldn't play an infantry guy that could engage the big mecha (and combat vehicles) with their MDC armor and weapons since human infantry gear was so weak (MDC achieved only by short hand)

They shouldn't be able to take one on.
Kind of humans taking on kaiju in Pacific Rim, or some of the monsters in Godzilla verse. Ain't going to happen.

[Grazzik]

Why does it have to be balanced? You keep saying things aren't balanced, but there is no real reason to balance things out the way you seem to be suggesting unless you are looking to get a "participation" trophy, Palladium doesn't sugar coat that you can have unbalanced scenarios just like in real life.

You are clearly misunderstanding what balance refers to. It is to members within a party, such that all must be able to contribute, equally, so that one single person is not doing everything. It is why in things like DnD you have a tank, a healer, ranged fighter etc. They all have something to contribute. See below quote from HU.

Heroes Unlimited page 178
Beware of Game Balance
The Mega-Hero can be a tricky character to play, and is not recommended for disruptive, domineering, or Hack-n-Slash players. Such characters are best suited for even tempered, subtle and experienced players or in a setting where themajority of (if not all) the characters are Mega-Heroes in a mega-powerful environment. Otherwise, game imbalance, trouble and hard feelings are inevitable.

Power Gamers and Hack-n-Slashers will have a field day with Mega-Heroes, but it may become a bore, or incredibly annoying, for the rest of the group.

It seems this has something to say on game balance amongst party members.

Respectfully, there may be a couple things to consider:
1) HU2 is not a MDC game and therefore play dynamics may be different. The Mega-Hero is truly a challenge to play as many of the HU characters may have a couple gimmicks or powers, but nothing wild. This likely works well for HU players and good for them.
2) Rifts is a very different game, as has been mentioned, and many of the character types (even a Vagabond totting a plasma cannon) would be a destabilizing factor in a HU game if converted RAW. Rifts players shouldn't expect the same type of gameplay - it is a world torn to shreds by powers beyond imagining, after all. As such, after 30-odd years of no balance in RAW, folks have either accepted that, house ruled it to have balance, or moved on to another game that matches their needs. Perhaps you may want to poll the folks on this forum to see if there is interest in adopting a DnD style of gameplay re balance. I'm not going to speculate on the results, but I know how I'd vote - no to balance and yes to mad chaos.
3) Not every PC needs to be a partial conversion Burster with a pet dragon. MDC games (Rifts/Phase World/Robotech) all provide sufficient diversity to allow players to be any archetype they want to be or feel would be productive in their respective session group. It isn't the nature of damage that defines the gameplay dynamics between team members, it's how they use it.

My first exposure to the Palladium/MDC system was with 1st Edition Robotech, the first use of said system. I suspect you'd find the settings early books (1-3) to be very unbalanced since you couldn't play an infantry guy that could engage the big mecha (and combat vehicles) with their MDC armor and weapons since human infantry gear was so weak (MDC achieved only by short hand)

They shouldn't be able to take one on.
Kind of humans taking on kaiju in Pacific Rim, or some of the monsters in Godzilla verse. Ain't going to happen.

In Rifts, they have had 300 years of giant monsters appearing and squishing humans underfoot. They have worked hard to dig up secrets from the Golden Age and fashioned them into armor and weapons that give squishies a barely decent chance at lasting 30 seconds when confronted with said giant monsters. In PW, they have had thousands of years to figure out the same. As such, in these games it is not unrealistic for a misguided or delusional hero to think they can face down a dragon alone. No one said they would survive. They just earn extra XP for playing in character. Whether the GM takes pity on the player/PC is their prerogative. However, the games give the players and GMs ample tools to make the most out of the encounter and have fun. If that isn't your kind of fun, then cool! Change the narrative so the hero never meets a dragon or is imbued with powers from a deity slumming it in that part of the megaverse. Your choice. Other GMs and players may have very different tastes in the type of game they play and the MDC games accommodate for that too.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Each game is a setting, using the same rules (RAW), tweaked to fit - said setting.

'Each Game is a Game unto itself' is clear in meaning, and correctly said.

Yes, the PB's games use the same Game System. Which in each Game is tweaked to that Game's Setting. Which means the RAW are different for each game, but similar. This too is correctly said.

No, the HU game is not the same game as Rifts. Nor are the HU & Rifts games, the PF RPG game.
I said things correctly.

[ShadowLogan]

You are clearly misunderstanding what balance refers to. It is to members within a party, such that all must be able to contribute, equally, so that one single person is not doing everything. It is why in things like DnD you have a tank, a healer, ranged fighter etc. They all have something to contribute. See below quote from HU.

I understand what balance refers to. However the reality is there are going to be situations/scenarios/encounters where party members are bound to contribute less or otherwise be outclassed by other members of the party. It is up to the GM to provide situations/scenarios/encounters to "balance" things out for players, not the publisher since they can not account for every combination or possibility here. Palladium even said this in the example you cited about the Mega-hero from HU, it's up to the GM to handle this (ie allow or disallow) not the players, RUE (pg73) has game designer notes that also call attention to this.

My first exposure to the Palladium/MDC system was with 1st Edition Robotech, the first use of said system. I suspect you'd find the settings early books (1-3) to be very unbalanced since you couldn't play an infantry guy that could engage the big mecha (and combat vehicles) with their MDC armor and weapons since human infantry gear was so weak (MDC achieved only by short hand)

]They shouldn't be able to take one on.
Kind of humans taking on kaiju in Pacific Rim, or some of the monsters in Godzilla verse. Ain't going to happen.

So you would say the example from 1E RT is balanced then? That is essentially what Palladium has done throught the various MD-settings. They've balanced things in a more "realistic way" as opposed to that hollow "participation trophy" you'll see elsewhere.

[guardiandashi]

I would say at the end of the day mdc and sdc are similar but I would argue that AR in most cases doesn't really apply to MDC for simplicity sake
but when talking about "scaling" mdc vs SDC AR is not appropriate, but a DR (Damage Reduction) would be.

as far as when you are talking ARs it works best if you think of it as Armor Rating and PV is a counter to high AR's kind of.

a normal human would have (if not restrained) an ar of ~4-5 this represents the base difficulty to hid/damage them
some dogs might have a +1-4 due to their coat IE how hard is it to get through their coat similar effect with things like alligators, Elephants (thick hide) a turtle or shellfish (protective shells) etc.

you then have full coverage, or partial coverage armor
the best way to think about this is if you have layers of protective clothing/armor then you should also track the damage capacity and AR of the gear to represent if you roll above the "hit rating" but below the ar you hit that layer of gear, if you get above the AR you bypass it.

you can also have partial and full sets of armor, and "piecemeal" armor this is where things like different armor pieces can add to overall armor even though they arguably shouldn't.
so in the case of piecemeal armor things like a chest plate, or jacket is going to have a certain "main body AR" and then adding additional location armor will add slightly to it, even though it arguably "shouldn't. I would say it does because it protects the edges of the main body because on creatures unless you are doing "location damage" its not as simple as saying main body is the torso of a humanoid.

[hbrika]

This debate has gone across campaigns for decades.

I remember having a discussion with Randy McCall about Mega Damage just about when that new fangled game Rifts came to town.

Then we talked about Beyond the Supernatural. He wouldn't tell me what had happened to Victor Lazlo

It's fun to see it still being talked about.

I was ~20 then, now I have grandkids. (and am more than 2 decades past 20)

[slade the sniper]

I think MDC works just fine in Palladium.
I also like how it works in Savage Worlds.

It just is not balanced.

Palladium games, especially Rifts is NOT balanced. In no setting is a Cosmo Knight and a Vagabond "balanced." Game balance is a fixture or assumption or desire in many games, Rifts isn't one of them.

-STS

[Sambot]

I don't think so. Leather Armor is going to have a lot lower AR than Plate Armor.

Dude, we're talking about MDC armour ratings, not plate!
So converting MDC into an AR rating, by RAW would require it be at least 100 points!

What ShadowLogan said.

That doesn't mean either are MDC. The pole went through the suits arm. The suit injured the Hulk. For the pole to go through the suit, the suit would have to be SDC. For the suit to injure the Hulk the Hulk would have to be SDC. The Hulk is like a full sized Zentraedi. Strong enough to give and take MDC punishment but still an SDC creature.

No the Chitauri Leviathan isn't an MDC creature. It does have a very high AR and huge amount of SDC. Far higher AR and SDC than the building. Iron Man's laser does nothing to it's armor proves that. If they were MDC each hit would do damage. The laser couldn't get past the AR and so did nothing and would do nothing. He'd run out of power before the laser did anything.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what MDC and SDC armour actually are! They are exactly the same thing, the measure is purely a game mechanic.

The Hulk frequently takes damage that would easily be over 100 points in game mechanics terms (fighter jets shooting at him), withstanding rockets! This makes it an MDC creature, by RAW - whether this is done with MDC points or AR is avbsolutely irrelevant - game mechanics are an abstraction to demonstrate such. Same too for Iron Man's Veronica suit, which is more a mecha.

Both are MDC or very high AR creatures (at least over 100 points).

Incorrect. The Hulk would have a very high Natural AR. As ShadowLogan said, Standard AR takes damage with each hit. It just isn't penetrated unless the attack exceeds the rating of the AR. Unlike standard AR, Natural AR takes no damage unless the attack meets or exceeds the AR. As long as the attack was below the Hulk's Natural AR, he receives no damage. So if the roll to strike was a 18 and the Hulk's Natural AR is 19, he receives no damage. As we see in the movies only a few hits manage to inflict any damage. That is not what would happen if he were MDC receiving MD attacks. If that were happening, every MD hit would cause him damage. Eventually, he would run out of MDC. That doesn't happen.

Which means that both sides would be destroyed. It's just one will have cities to loot and plunder after and one won't.

Again a fundamental misunderstanding of MDC. When a pistol can literally destroy a building, there would be no city left!

Incorrect again. Besides ammo limitations, the shooting would stop as soon as the defenders were dead. And if they had MD weapons, wouldn't they have MD structures?

1: Each Game is a Game into and of itself. And not "just a setting".
2: MD/MDC is limited to the MDC games of Pallidumbooks.

Each game is a setting, using the same rules (RAW), tweaked to fit - said setting.
And in fact mega-damage appears in Dark Matter 5e, using the same principles.
So doubly wrong here.

And yet we have conversion notes that change one to the other depending on the setting. That proves each setting is different.

Why does it have to be balanced? You keep saying things aren't balanced, but there is no real reason to balance things out the way you seem to be suggesting unless you are looking to get a "participation" trophy, Palladium doesn't sugar coat that you can have unbalanced scenarios just like in real life.

You are clearly misunderstanding what balance refers to. It is to members within a party, such that all must be able to contribute, equally, so that one single person is not doing everything. It is why in things like DnD you have a tank, a healer, ranged fighter etc. They all have something to contribute. See below quote from HU.

Heroes Unlimited page 178
Beware of Game Balance
The Mega-Hero can be a tricky character to play, and is not recommended for disruptive, domineering, or Hack-n-Slash players. Such characters are best suited for even tempered, subtle and experienced players or in a setting where themajority of (if not all) the characters are Mega-Heroes in a mega-powerful environment. Otherwise, game imbalance, trouble and hard feelings are inevitable.

Power Gamers and Hack-n-Slashers will have a field day with Mega-Heroes, but it may become a bore, or incredibly annoying, for the rest of the group.

It seems this has something to say on game balance amongst party members.

That quote has more to do with the players, not the characters.


I really don't understand where you're trying to go with the whole balance thing. No a Vagabond can't go toe to to against a Dragon in a fight. So? (Who'd d that anyway?) A Healer isn't a fighter either but they still contribute to the party. The Vagabond could be the brains behind the Dragon's brawn. It feels like you're saying that the Vagabond isn't balanced because he/she can't slap the Dragon around while ignoring other ways the Vagabond can contribute.

And why should things be "balanced" anyway? If things were balanced, why would Humans need body armor, tanks, robots, etc.?

[drewkitty ~..~]

1: Each Game is a Game into and of itself. And not "just a setting".
2: MD/MDC is limited to the MDC games of Pallidumbooks.

Each game is a setting, using the same rules (RAW), tweaked to fit - said setting.
And in fact mega-damage appears in Dark Matter 5e, using the same principles.
So doubly wrong here.

And yet we have conversion notes that change one to the other depending on the setting. That proves each setting is different.

The conversion text for chars from different Games are different. Yes. But.....
Continued talking about them as 'just another setting'; by just calling them settings; invalidates their game-hood in people's minds.

[Sambot]

1: Each Game is a Game into and of itself. And not "just a setting".
2: MD/MDC is limited to the MDC games of Pallidumbooks.

Each game is a setting, using the same rules (RAW), tweaked to fit - said setting.
And in fact mega-damage appears in Dark Matter 5e, using the same principles.
So doubly wrong here.

And yet we have conversion notes that change one to the other depending on the setting. That proves each setting is different.

The conversion text for chars from different Games are different. Yes. But.....
Continued talking about them as 'just another setting'; by just calling them settings; invalidates their game-hood in people's minds.

I don't think so. Palladium is different from Rifts. I can use things from Palladium in Rifts but that doesn't make Rifts into Palladium. They're still distinct settings.

[grandmaster z0b]

Every setting has mega-damage stuff, and it is just the representation of high levels of damage or armour. So there is a lot of division on this. Is it a good thing, or bad thing?

Is it done well in Palladium? Not at all, in fact the idea is amazing, but execution is abysmal. So what about other ways to represent it?

I never figured out D&D so I can't speak to that. Savage Worlds sounds overly complicated.

I think mega-damage works. For those that don't like MDC, it can be converted to AR/ SDC. The only real pet peeve I have with mega-damage is that hand held weapons can do more damage than a tank cannons. I get the focus is on the individual but then I picture the scene from Kelly's Heroes. The one where Kelly, Big Joe, and Odd Ball walk down the street towards the Tiger Tank. If their hand guns could destroy a tank, that Tiger should be retreating. Fortunately, GMs do have the power to introduce House Rules. The thing with House Rules is that they don't work at every table. I wouldn't mind if there were some official options but I wouldn't rewrite all the rules. Some people like blowing away tanks with hand guns.

This is the only thing that really bothers me about the MDC system. Giant Robots with weapons ten times, if not a hundred times as big as a standard energy rifle but do the same (or LESS) damage. Generally I give Giant Robots x10 or x100 damage outputs but also I don't make them generally available to players.

I don't mind if the players concentrate their fire on a single part of a tank or robot to take it on (for example everyone targets the main gun to disable it, the sensor cluster to blind it, or the cupola hatch so they can throw a grenade down there or some other clever strategy) but if they try and take one on blasé they should be scared of getting blown to kingdom come in one round.