Is there a Rule about moving and fighting?

[darthauthor]

Cyber-knight player with a speed of 30 wants to run and strike with their Psi-Sword.

The way I see it, players can run and gun as long as they have a line of sight shot they can shoot while they are running to, side-ways or backwards from an opponent.

I don't know how to fairly judge a play who wants to BOTH run to their target and make all 6 attacks.

I guess the question is, how many attacks should a player lose running to their target before they get to roll to strike?

[Soldier of Od]

If running while shooting a gun, the character is shooting wild (-6 to strike). In our games, we extend the wild strikes to include hand to hand combat, so if you want to run in and swing at the target, that's a wild strike (-6); jump down from a wall and hit someone, wild strike (-6); grab a weapon from the table and hit someone with it, wild strike (-6), etc. That might work for you too.

By the rules, you run up to your opponent and stand there waiting for them to hit you. Which is why we introduced the above idea.

As for how many actions they should lose running to the target, that is basically working out far you can run in an action, and that can cause issues because of how Palladium's actions per melee work, stacking any extra actions all at the end if you have more than your opponent. So rather than work it out mathematically, we tend to run fast and loose with it - you have a speed of 30? Sure, you can get there in one action. Speed of 11? Okay... that'll take two. Note I'm not measuring any distances or calculating it properly - you could argue that it if it takes the Spd 30 character one action, it should take the Spd 11 character three, but maybe the first person actually gets there quicker than one action, but there is no smaller unit to use. Or maybe terrain or other factors are making a difference - Essentially I am just making a judgement call on what feels appropriate for the situation. Hope that helps.

[ShadowLogan]

I guess the question is, how many attacks should a player lose running to their target before they get to roll to strike?

This is going to be a somewhat math heavy post, but unfortunately there isn't much that can be done about it if you want to be detail accurate.

With the Speed Attribute you can basically tack on the unit "feet per second" as how fast they move (not the first to note this either), unfortunately if you use metric units this won't work but showing my work:
SPD * 20 = Yards per minute *3 = Feet per Minute / 60 seconds in a minute = ft/sec
This can simplify down to:
SPD * ((20 to get yrd/min * 3ft/min yrd to ft conversion)/(60seconds in a minute)) = SPD * (60feet per minute / 60 seconds in a minute) = SPD * 1 for ft/sec.

As of RUE they also include a SPD *5 = Yards per 15sec Period (ie Melee Round), which still reduces down to SPD = ft/sec.

If you use metric units, you'll have to convert the Speed Attribute to Meters per second ((SPD * 20) / 60) = 1/3 of SPD in m/s. Though it should be noted Palladium assumes 1yard = 1 meter, which is not true and actually introduces an error if you convert between English Imperial and Metric which can add up over time (~39inches to a meter, and 36inches to a yard so at slower speeds probably not going to be a meaningful issue, but at higher speeds it could add up).

An Attack duration = 15seconds / Attacks Per Melee Round = Attack duration in seconds.

You then multiple the Attack duration per second * SPD attribute (ft/second) = distance traveled (seconds cancel each other out).

You could also take they distance they cover in a melee round as above (ie the SPD * 5) / the # of Attacks per melee round available = distance they cover in 1 melee action. This works for distance per minute, which simplifies down to this (don't forget to multiple the APM by the # of melee rounds in 1 minute or 4).

That means your character with 6 APM (2.5sec duration per) and a SPD of 30 (ft/sec), would cover 25 yards per action (or 75ft) no matter which approach you use above.

I would suggest setting up something like an multiplication table grid with APM on the X axis and SPD attribute on the Y axis and the grid coordinates they meet is the distance you can cover in that period. (Something similar might also help when the Speed is per hour at some interval, though there you convert the unit (miles or kilometers) per hour to a smaller unit (ft or meters) to seconds) to have a relatable number). In this way you can address any player character easily w/o needing to recalculate everything if you make the table generic enough (upto 15 APM which is the highest you'll likely see, SPD if you do 150 that should cover everyone including Juciers).

It should also be noted that the faster the character the more distance they need to get up to speed (this is especially true for Super Speed, HU2E pg72-3 which is 10ft per 10mph of)

I don't know how to fairly judge a play who wants to BOTH run to their target and make all 6 attacks.

It's a lot more straight forward for ranged combat, where when in motion you take a penalty to strike (motion is relative) but can do it.

For melee combat you are going to need to know the distance they have to cover. Though I do believe what the player is asking to do is a charge attack which means you use multiple APMs.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyber-knight player with a speed of 30 wants to run and strike with their Psi-Sword.

The way I see it, players can run and gun as long as they have a line of sight shot they can shoot while they are running to, side-ways or backwards from an opponent.

I don't know how to fairly judge a play who wants to BOTH run to their target and make all 6 attacks.

I guess the question is, how many attacks should a player lose running to their target before they get to roll to strike?

Every tried running sideways or backward, especially while firing a gun?

[hup7]

While I am pretty sure not canon; we have always gone with you can move half your speed (not the attribute) per action (use an excel calc to find this, as ShadowLogan pointed out it requires a little basic maths - actually Gecko's roll20 sheet calculates it for you) and still shoot (wild). If you move your more than that you cannot fire that action.

Melee is much the same - half and still attack, more than that and you can't. Melee move/attack is not wild but you need a relevant attack - body tackle, jump kick, etc. You can charge with a spear but not a dagger. This is often where your martial arts come into play.

Basically we go by the rule of common sense. But that is just a house rule. Have fun.

[darthauthor]

They player was playing a cyber-knight. He as investigating a colony the CS attacked when they sprung their ambush.
The CS had 8 snipers trying to pin him down in the desert.

So he wanted to go "Die Hard" (Bruce Willis style) and with his speed of 30 ran straight (1,000 feet) in the direction of the cluster of snipers spaced 100 feet from each other. I told him it was a BAD idea and that he should use cover or create a distraction but he insisted on "Going For It"

So, Speed 30 times 5 (per melee attack) = 150 yards = 450 feet. Divide 1,000 feet by 450 and I got 2.22 rounding up for terrain and not being able to instantly run at his fastest speed an even 3 attacks.
Sprinting he goes, costing him 3 melee attack actions while the snipers all shoot at him.
1st Melee enemy sniper attack. Armor gone.
2nd Psychic body gone
3rd. under armor
4th He runs through with his psi sword. CS held their fire instead not to risk shooting their own.
5th 100 feet of the 450 feet per melee attack he can run is more than covered and he called shot and severed the head of the sniper.
6th Repeat of 5 above.

Round 2 - Fight.

Cyber-knight Wins initiative

1st attack. Runs 100 feet. Repeat of #5 and #6 above. Total of CS killed at this time 4. Surviving two start running away to their camoflauged hovercraft.
2nd. Cyber-knight runs after them, out runs them, cuts head off the slower one. Last man keeps running in a panic.
3rd. CS runs to hover-craft attempting to board. Cyber-knight strikes.
4th. CS drops rifle and pulls out hand grenade. Cyber-knight servers hand of CS. CS out of attacks
5th Cyberknight strikes twice for his 5th & 6th attacks. CS dead.

What did I do wrong?

Right?

Suggestions for better tactics on the part of the CS?
What do you think would have done differently?

[Grazzik]

What did I do wrong?

Namely, not listening carefully to ShadowLogan... it should have taken the cyberknight at least 1 whole melee ROUND to cover 450 ft. That meant, the 8 snipers had TWO whole rounds to hit the cyberknight. If a couple had the sharpshooting skill, rather than just the sniper skill, they could land quite a few hits. I doubt he would have made the 1000 ft if the shooters were doing such damage that most of his armor was gone in a few attacks. And that is ignoring knockdown effects that might slow his charge if any of the snipers rolled Criticals.

Also, the PC's approach was headshots for the most part. With so many snipers (which are skilled marksmen) taking shots, as a GM I might have figured at least one might be a glory hound and tried for a headshot or two...

[darthauthor]

I might have miss-read the Rifts Ultimate Edition.

I thought it read, Speed number times 5 for the distance in yards a character could run in 1 of the melee attack actions.

I thought the Math was 450 feet per melee action.

Second, I got the number wrong. It was 6 snipers, not 8.

I admit I could have done my homework better on the sniper attack. I didn't think the player would be so tactically foolish as to charge head long into snipers.
Thought he'd take the NPC's advice and wait until they came to him or night fell. In my mind, the player was wanting to go out blazing and would get himself killed. I really didn't think he'd make the rolls. He was full of himself.

I admit, in hindsight, the snipers should have taken headshots. I really didn't think he'd survive the run or take out more than 1 sniper.

[Soldier of Od]

Your description of the combat totally confused me!

Grazzik is right - your main error was misunderstanding the speed calculation - Speed x5 is the number of yards/meters covered in a melee round (15 seconds), not an action.
Even if the snipers had only four attacks each, the six of them would have 24 shots against the cyberknight just in the first melee round - I would think he would have been cut down easily.

But, ignoring that to discuss the resulting combat:
As the cyberknight is one-shot killing all of the CS snipers, I guess that means none of them are wearing any MDC armour? I think that is very unlikely.
I guess when the cyberknight reaches the first sniper, the others might hesitate to shoot him for fear of hitting their own, but by the time they've seen him run the first guy through in a single attack and move on to the next one, I'm sure they would just open fire. They are snipers after all - they should be pretty confident of their ability to hit a target. And especially as, after the third action, the cyberknight's armour is gone! All six snipers were still up - one hit from any of them and he would have been toast! But none of them made any further attacks against the cyberknight until the last one pulls a hand grenade out of desperation.
If, as above, they see the cyberknight closing in for melee attacks, and they decide to take no action other than to watch and wait, I should think they would at least ready a vibro-knife or something so that when the enemy gets to them they can at least try to parry (or, if they are wearing armour, simultaneous strike the cyberknight whose armour is gone!).
Also, if the cyberknight has won the initiative, he runs over to a sniper and kills them. It is now the other snipers' turn. Their comrade is dead, so there is no longer any risk of friendly fire, so they would all open up on the cyberknight standing over the dead body of their comrade, right?
On his 5th action the cyberknight has run 100ft, called a shot and severed a head. Obviously, whether he is able to run and attack is the subject of this thread (!), but even ignoring that, a called "shot" (assuming you allow called melee attacks - I do) should have taken two actions.

Sorry if any of the above seems critical, it is not meant to - you did ask for feedback!

[ShadowLogan]

So he wanted to go "Die Hard" (Bruce Willis style) and with his speed of 30 ran straight (1,000 feet) in the direction of the cluster of snipers spaced 100 feet from each other. I told him it was a BAD idea and that he should use cover or create a distraction but he insisted on "Going For It"

Your main issue was incorrect math (as pointed out already and even acknowledged). 1,000ft should have taken the CK 13.33x of their actions to cover the distance to the first sniper (a full 2x melee rounds, 15sec each, plus another 2x actions in a 3rd melee round). Spaced 100ft apart, it would also take them 2x actions to cover the distance between each one. This assumes a SPD of 30, with 6 APM quoted initially and no assumptions about terrain/elevation.

The only other things that might have slowed the CK down:
-the terrain between "camp" and the sniper positions that could slow someone down (not necessarily provide cover): uneven terrain, wet/moist terrain (slip, run in mud, run into quicksand, etc)
-elevation of the sniper's positions (if they are perched the CK would have to change elevation, which takes time), elevation could be such that they can't run straight at them either or even at full speed
-how the CS has their Snipers deployed, some organizations in the real world when they deploy snipers deploy them also with a Spotter. IF the CS did deploy spotters with the snipers, then when the CK actually got close enough they would have to contend with 2x individuals and not 1x, in fact the 2nd could have also attacked as they made their final approach
-as this was an ambush the Snipers could also have setup additional traps/defenses to slow an approach on their positions
-once they engaged the CK at close range, the snipers could employ melee attacks (HTH, Vibro-Blade) and defensive actions (dodge, parry). It almost sounds like the CK was able to 1x hit the snipers, which seems unlikely if they are in EBA (6APMs suggests a low level CK, so the Psi-Sword is doing what 2 or 3d6 based on other aspects you've said?, means average of 7-10.5damage per hit against even old school 50MDC main body EBA should take several actions). Even if we assume the CK made head shots, that should have been done at penalty, plus the EBA's helmet (if worn) should also make this unlikely to be a 1x hit thing.
-when the CK moved from position to position, the remaining snipers had time to fire on the CK again between melee bouts (even with your incorrect math)
-NPCs had the option of surrendering, something that would likely be considered an option if a CK is present (Code and such) even for the CS I would think. Another option would be to disarm themselves, a CK is NOT supposed to attack an unarmed foe, nor use the Psi-Sword on an opponent not equal to the attack (both of these are per the CK Code). Nor are they supposed to "Charge an unhorsed opponent" (which their actions could qualify as). Based on this encounter alone, they might face repercussions from the CK organization as a whole in terms of following the Code (or if nothing else remind the player about the CK Code of Conduct they are supposed to be aspiring to following)
-the OCC/MOS and HTH skill(s) and level of the CS Snipers is also somewhat blank (as presented), a CS Sniper from the Commando/SpecFor OCCs or Juicer (who are used as snipers) vs a Military Specialist vs even a (Full Conversion) Cyborg could change things dramatically. A Juicer has that pesky Auto-Dodge or HTH: commando (auto-dodge at higher levels, they have more variety of melee attacks even at low levels). As this was a team of snipers, there should also have been somewhat of a spread in terms of levels (and APM) It does sound like you had "generic" NPCs only considering APM
-Called Shots should also impose penalties to strike, especially on small targets (like hands)

Its also worth considering that after their surprise round, the snipers would have been on the move to a new position (especially once their position was made). That would mean by the time the CK could react, determine their position (even one of them), they could have already been on the move and never had to engage the CK depending on conditions.

[darthauthor]

Double checking the book.

I acknowledge I made a mistake in calculating the distance covered. It really should have taken 2 WHOLE melee rounds, NOT two melee attack actions.

Basically, he is toast.

The CS were undercover, posing as merc bandits demanding protection money or tribute. They didn't want it known that the CS were involved in the colonies destruction. Their strategy was to create a need for the protection of CS. So instead of waiting for some supernatural force or plundering bandits they decided to speed things up and bring the destruction on the colony themselves. They didn't want any witnesses or proof that the CS did it only that they came to the rescue. They didn't know the cyber-knight was going to be there and feared he might figure something out if he stayed and investigated.

Like I wrote eariler, I had not planned for him to run head long into a snipers nest. I think in the back of my mind the character was dead if he couldn't take them out quick so I took out the armor as there was little chance he'd survive if I did not.

I would like to READ more about the CK organization and how they police their cyber-knights. This player character "ought" to be in a lot of trouble for the way he played. I just don't know how the CK org would know as the player did not see anything "wrong" with what they did.

While on a journey some travelers asked if the CK would let them go with him for their own protection to the colony. He agreed. While they pitched a tent that night they got ambushed. During the fight, the NPC travelers woke and ran away to hide.

When one of them got killed the CK ran off on a vengence hunt effectively abondoning the other survivers. When I tried to account him for it in his report to the CK org he said he thought they were ALL dead. There was no proof of that and he didn't bother to look. He also turned down another cyber-knight when he was asked to stay and help him fight some vampires.