Bionic extra limbs and extra attacks

[SpartacusDaddd]

A question on how extra attacks work when it comes to additional limbs from bionics such as pneumatic Jack hammer arms tentacles etc.

Does this just add an extra attack for any limb? It doesn’t make sense to me that you have 6 arms with two making all the attacks and 4 just sitting there looking weird.

AITA if I rule the extra attacks from those limbs must be used by those limbs?

Also do they need to take the paired weapons proficiency for each pair or arms or just once total?

[ShadowLogan]

Re: Paired Weapons
You only need to acquire the skill once. That is based on existing examples like the Rahu-man Race, or some of the Triax multi-limbed Full Conversion Borg Frames.

Re: APM
Unless specifically called out the APM is for the general pool, though IIRC there are examples where the extra APM granted has to be used in a certain manner (off hand I don't recall where specifically).

[SpartacusDaddd]

Re: Paired Weapons
You only need to acquire the skill once. That is based on existing examples like the Rahu-man Race, or some of the Triax multi-limbed Full Conversion Borg Frames.

Re: APM
Unless specifically called out the APM is for the general pool, though IIRC there are examples where the extra APM granted has to be used in a certain manner (off hand I don't recall where specifically).

Well here’s my issue - it doesn’t say one way or the other. And here’s where it get ridiculous - how can having 4 pairs of tentacles, 2 pairs of pneumatic jackhammer arms plus your normal arms affect how many times you can do something with your main arms? Seems silly to me and seems to encourage just stacking arms on arms in perpetuity

[guardiandashi]

Re: Paired Weapons
You only need to acquire the skill once. That is based on existing examples like the Rahu-man Race, or some of the Triax multi-limbed Full Conversion Borg Frames.

Re: APM
Unless specifically called out the APM is for the general pool, though IIRC there are examples where the extra APM granted has to be used in a certain manner (off hand I don't recall where specifically).

Well here’s my issue - it doesn’t say one way or the other. And here’s where it get ridiculous - how can having 4 pairs of tentacles, 2 pairs of pneumatic jackhammer arms plus your normal arms affect how many times you can do something with your main arms? Seems silly to me and seems to encourage just stacking arms on arms in perpetuity

its kind of vague, but the general idea is additional arms/pairs of limbs should mostly give attacks with those limbs.
example the 4 armed gunslinger borg from new west.

with that said one place where it can be problematic is when you have items or weapons with max uses/round

I know that part of the reason you get additional attacks is kind of like how boxing gives an additional attack (speed bag training)
additional limbs/tentacles essentially mean your brain gets wired a little different to use the additional limbs.

[ShadowLogan]

The fact it doesn't state a limiter would be an indication it goes to the general pool.

Now the "why" X results in additional APMs isn't clear in the text for a lot of sources, not just extra bionic limbs as there are classes that get bonus APMs that are the result of training (ex. Cyber-Knight) but there is also general skills training that only kicks in with specific hardware (ex. Robot Combat, WP Sharpshooting skills). We know that some implants (MoM and Juicer) alter the brain and grant attacks, which could indicate that adding these extra limbs alters the brain in some way (we also know there are races that get bonus APMs due to the way their brains are wired, like Zebuloid in one of the PW books).

As for stacking multiple limbs. I thought there was a limit to the number of extra arms/tentacles you could receive. The adjacent Robot RCC from SB1 does place a limit of "Up to four pair can be added to most human size or larger bots" (pg104 SB1o) for tentacle limbs, so there is some precedent for it (the Robot RCC does share a lot with the Bionics after all). And while I couldn't find one for the humanoid arm per say (limit 1 extra pair), it would be implied in the description give its location is specifically identified (nothing else limit it based on known examples, I can't think of any player intended Cyborg Frame or mecha with more than 1x extra pair of arms). Remember all these extra limbs have to go somewhere, and will require alterations to the frame to support/mount them and at some point you either run out of room (sorry you don't have any room for the Bionic Wings because you've got 2 pair of tentacles mounted on your back for ex) or it will become cost prohibitive to make it fit/work even if there is room (ex: to make a 5th pair of tentacles I'm going to need to overhaul your frame and do some custom rewiring and you might lose XYZ features and the tentacles might have to be custom resized to fit the new location, etc) or even willing/able to do the job (sorry that 5th pair of tentacles you want to add is a bit out of my league for ex).

The above can limit upgrades, but I'm sure you're thinking what about at character creation. Well check what they can actually get for "free" and what they have to "pay out of pocket" (and extra limbs aren't cheap). Each section of the FCB body has defined upgrade limits (at least as of Bionic SB/RUE, possibly earlier), which would be another way to limit what a player can get or just provide a template for classes written prior to.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A question on how extra attacks work when it comes to additional limbs from bionics such as pneumatic Jack hammer arms tentacles etc.

Does this just add an extra attack for any limb? It doesn’t make sense to me that you have 6 arms with two making all the attacks and 4 just sitting there looking weird.

AITA if I rule the extra attacks from those limbs must be used by those limbs?

Also do they need to take the paired weapons proficiency for each pair or arms or just once total?

'For each "Pair" of extra limbs the char gets +1 APM' is the systemwide standard.

Paired Weapons: when talking about humans or other humanoids, this only lets the char use one pair of arms at the same time when only using melee weapons. Yes, house rules do 'wink-nod' let the char only WP PW just once for chars with added arms.
With modern weapons, psionics it is still one attack per APM no matter how many limbs/arms the character has. Casting magic takes up all the char's attention so the char can't do any major actions during the time the char is casting magic, (unless a class speciality lets them do otherwise).

The case of naturally occurring races with multiple limbs was brought up. The rules these races follow can not be used as generalized rules for the game system as a whole because they were written for that specific race. Not as rules for the system as a whole.

[Grazzik]

Fyi all. Thought it might be useful.

Four-armed characters only need to take W.P. Paired Weapons once, not once for each pair of arms. A character who already has W.P. Paired Weapons would not gain any additional bonuses or benefits by taking the skill a second time.

Also, the general sense seems to be that the attacks stack in the general H2H pool, though folks seem to not see the sense in it, as why would a jackhammer hand give you an extra kick? Par for the course in a PB game, I guess. For any rules lawyer that wants to disallow adding the attacks to the general pool, consider the following:

A pair of arms and hands add one attack per melee and a bonus of +1 to strike and parry to the character's overall combat skills. The arm's individual attribute bonuses apply only to that arm and not the character's accumulative combat abilities.

"Attribute bonuses" are defined on RUE pg 344 as including "combat and saving throw bonuses" from physical and mental strengths, though it is not explicit that the bonuses be only derived from the eight attributes. "Combat bonuses" is also defined on that page as including the bonuses added to fighting abilities. So, it could be argued by sticklers that the additional attack from the added limbs are specific to attacks using those limbs. SB5 (Bionics) pg 91 says tentacles are "similar to the additional arms" but makes no mention of limiting attribute bonuses. Other implants would seem to be left to GM interpretation.

Personally, I just add the attacks to the pool, but if that's not the way others want to play it, they could try to use the above to argue RAW.

[ShadowLogan]

Seems silly to me and seems to encourage just stacking arms on arms in perpetuity

I spent a bit of time researching this line last night searching for the reference for a hard limit. The text, depending on source, does seem to place some limits on where these will be installed. Which would avoid the perpetuity aspect you are concerned with.

Bionic Soucebook:
pg89 "A pair of additional hands and arms can be attached to the reinforced rib cage just below the usual pair."
pg91 "A pair of tentacles can be located under the normal arms and/or in the back, attached to the shoulder blades."

That is from the main description in the Bionic Source Book for the extra arms/tentacles, and tail is limited to 1x (and depending on where you look it either grants a bonus attack or it doesn't, which might come down to where the implant is sourced from). The text is C&P from RMB for both, and RUE also for the arms (it doesn't list the tentacles IINM). There is a secondary description(s) that omits this information elsewhere in the book as it was just pulled from a given World Book(s).

Given they state where the limbs are installed in the more fleshed out entries, that would prevent the issue of perpetuity you are concerned about. Now a GM could allow more at other locations, but they would be certainly justified in saying you can only have them at these locations.

[SpartacusDaddd]

Seems silly to me and seems to encourage just stacking arms on arms in perpetuity

I spent a bit of time researching this line last night searching for the reference for a hard limit. The text, depending on source, does seem to place some limits on where these will be installed. Which would avoid the perpetuity aspect you are concerned with.

Bionic Soucebook:
pg89 "A pair of additional hands and arms can be attached to the reinforced rib cage just below the usual pair."
pg91 "A pair of tentacles can be located under the normal arms and/or in the back, attached to the shoulder blades."

That is from the main description in the Bionic Source Book for the extra arms/tentacles, and tail is limited to 1x (and depending on where you look it either grants a bonus attack or it doesn't, which might come down to where the implant is sourced from). The text is C&P from RMB for both, and RUE also for the arms (it doesn't list the tentacles IINM). There is a secondary description(s) that omits this information elsewhere in the book as it was just pulled from a given World Book(s).

Given they state where the limbs are installed in the more fleshed out entries, that would prevent the issue of perpetuity you are concerned about. Now a GM could allow more at other locations, but they would be certainly justified in saying you can only have them at these locations.

Thank you for this and sorry for the delay in responding- this makes the most sense to me instead of putting in arbitrary limits and such.