Mega Damage Question/ Combat question

[General Kong]

Okay, maybe this has been done to death but I am new to Rifts so bear with me.

I do understand that a MDC-weapon does 100 damage in SDC/ Hit points per MDC-damage point and can basically cut down anyone who is not in MDC-Armor or is an MDC-creature.
Likewise SDC-weapons are basically a joke wehn you are an MDC-creature or when you donned MDC-Armor.

Now, according to the Ultimate Rifts-Rulebook there is no A.R. when you talk MDC. a 5 will hit you if you do not Parry/ Dodge and you or your armor loses points according to the damage you took.

Fine.

Now comes my point: According to the rules if you have just 1 point of MDC-Armor left and take say 57 MDC-points in damage your Armor absorbs all the damage and is wrecked.
Thus, you whittle down the other guy, then all of the sudden you blast him one last time and - WHAM! - he is butt-naked (so to speak) and depleted of all his armor but still scratchless if more then a little rattled because: The next hit will be an instant kill!
Time to give up buddy!

Seems a little anticlimatic for me. If as a GM I am not really trying to kill a PC ("And now he shoots again (hehe!) ...") PCs are unkillable if they don't push their luck to the extreme, meaning: Fight on when their armor is gone.

I played first edition Palldium Fantasy back in the days: There you can fight on when your Armor is gone. Or you are dead with your armor intact.

So, do you play it by the book and if so: How does it play out?

Or do you have some other rule like MDC damage that destroys armor carries damage over to the character - 100 points per MDC-point (that is basically instant kill) or 10 points (hurt but standing) or something else.

Enlighten me before I wreck my game!

[Grazzik]

Now comes my point: According to the rules if you have just 1 point of MDC-Armor left and take say 57 MDC-points in damage your Armor absorbs all the damage and is wrecked.
Thus, you whittle down the other guy, then all of the sudden you blast him one last time and - WHAM! - he is butt-naked (so to speak) and depleted of all his armor but still scratchless if more then a little rattled because: The next hit will be an instant kill!
Time to give up buddy!

...

So, do you play it by the book and if so: How does it play out?

Or do you have some other rule like MDC damage that destroys armor carries damage over to the character - 100 points per MDC-point (that is basically instant kill) or 10 points (hurt but standing) or something else.

Enlighten me before I wreck my game!

This is the so-called GI Joe Rule. As a GM, I do not use it and house ruled it out of existence.

When I play MDC games, any carryover damage is taken by the squishy inside at the 100:1 ratio.

However, I mostly play 10:1 Rifts games - mega armor has AR and takes damage from SDC. I play by modified AR rules which allows pass thru of 50% damage from any hit above AR. Below AR is 100% taken by armor. This means more damage to PC than a RAW MDC game, but it can be survivable as it isn't the outrageous 100:1 ratio.

It all comes down to the playstyle YOU want for YOUR game. You and your group may want to experiment with different ideas to find out what works. Have fun!

[General Kong]

I like the AR and 50% damage rule at 1/10 damage. How do does that work for creatures which have MDC and no hit points? Do you assign Hit Points and S.D.C. to the creatures and treat their MDC as Armor?

[Grazzik]

I like the AR and 50% damage rule at 1/10 damage. How do does that work for creatures which have MDC and no hit points? Do you assign Hit Points and S.D.C. to the creatures and treat their MDC as Armor?

Keep it simple. There are a couple nuances I've included below...

Monster MDC = 90% SDC / 10% HP
Monster with 500 MDC = 5000 HP/SDC = 4500 SDC, 500 HP

I treat AR for monsters as different from armor...

Armor:
>AR on Called shot ... 100% wearer to body part called
>AR normal or Aimed shot ... 50% to armor, 50% wearer to main
=<AR any shot ... 100% armor

For Rifts, I have rules for forcefields and shielded pilot compartments using the same model... basically a hit above AR means pass thru one layer of protection. So, think: Force field > vehicle armor > pilot comp > pilot body armor> pilot.

Monster - use PFRPG/HU/BtS/NB for coming up with AR equivalents:
>AR ... 100% dmg to monster
=<AR ... 50% dmg to monster

[ShadowLogan]

Now comes my point: According to the rules if you have just 1 point of MDC-Armor left and take say 57 MDC-points in damage your Armor absorbs all the damage and is wrecked.
Thus, you whittle down the other guy, then all of the sudden you blast him one last time and - WHAM! - he is butt-naked (so to speak) and depleted of all his armor but still scratchless if more then a little rattled because: The next hit will be an instant kill!
Time to give up buddy!

If you don't want to house rule it out (it was added in RUE, but was not part of the MD system under the older RMB or the original MD system in 1E RT), you could use the optional rules found on pg355-6 that would allow some of the MD to be converted to SDC/HP if the attack met certain requirements (basically an explosion, but if the attack could be considered a crash or fall it would also work).

There is also the "common sense" exception that KS has written about in the past in books where players would jump on a grenade and then dust themselves off because it it didn't do enough damage to deplete their SDC/HP (or MD) where he flat out says to overrule the rules and just say that the explosion kills the PC. I think it's in Conversion Book 1 Revised somewhere, I know it's in the old Robotech REF Field Guide. So, depending on the circumnutates you could overrule the normal mechanics even here.

Also don't forget other aspects that the system acknowledges happen but might get overlooked (like the force of an attack mentioned on pg356 in RUE) that could be used to explain how the someone survived (via the GI Joe Rule) when then should not have (which can also just come down to GM fiat). Ex. "the 6d6 MD laser blast hits you and depletes the remaining 3 MDC in your armor and instinctively you fell backward allowing you to avoid the rest of the damage, but your armor is gone." or "the 6d6MD mini missile explosion sends you flying, the 3 MDC remaining in your armor absorbs the attack but you take damage as you come land." or "the warheads explode doing 2100MD, scrapping your brand new 100MDC EBA suit, per the rules on pg356 in RUE you also take 1SDC/HP per 20MDC or 100SDC/HP.... [player objects] What...[player brings up "gi joe rule"] No the "gi joe rule" did protect you from the excess 2000MD, but that doesn't protect you from the damage from the rules for "HP/SDC damage when inside MDC Armor". or "the MD attack is a grazing attack that destroys your armor, but just barely missed you (an examples might be from the 2nd episode of RT:NG saga where the MDC claw attack of an Invid "hit" but only left a long gash in the back of Annie's jumpsuit, or in one of the "recent" Zorro movies where he disrobes a woman, he was sword fighting).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do understand that a MDC-weapon does 100 damage in SDC/ Hit points per MDC-damage point and can basically cut down anyone who is not in MDC-Armor or is an MDC-creature.

1 MD (not stupid 'MDC damage') does the equivalent of 100 SD. Yes.

Now comes my point: According to the rules if you have just 1 point of MDC-Armor left and take say 57 MDC-points in damage your Armor absorbs all the damage and is wrecked.
Thus, you whittle down the other guy, then all of the sudden you blast him one last time and - WHAM! - he is butt-naked (so to speak) and depleted of all his armor but still scratchless if more then a little rattled because: The next hit will be an instant kill!

Yep the stupid G.I. Joe rule...
(suitable replacement for what you meant: unscathed or undamaged.)

So, do you play it by the book and if so: How does it play out?

The main thing I deviate from the canon rules I use when I GM is that heavy SD weapons don't just 'ting' off the MDC armor. Depending on the type, the char will get shoved around, throw in the air, and if the N20-N1 rolls converge they might land wrong and the char breaks their neck. N20 strikes might land the char in MDC EBA KO'ed because of getting thrown back/sideways/up.
{yes I know it is sort of non sequitur in nature cause I didn't follow the context of the topic. }

Or do you have some other rule like MDC damage that destroys armor carries damage over to the character - 100 points per MDC-point (that is basically instant kill) or 10 points (hurt but standing) or something else.

Enlighten me before I wreck my game!

Just ignore the G.I. Joe rule. It should of been listed as optional.
--------
One fix (sort of) is to add 4 to the listed AR rating of SDC armor. Unless the AR of the armor is a Natural AR. Then just leave it alone.
Why +4? because the basic attack roll 'to hit' target is 4 for melee combat.
This would mean the attacker would have to roll an 9 or more when attacking someone with armor with an AR of 4. This makes the Leather and cloth armor more useful than just taking up encumbrance weight for the char.

*tags GK's PMs*

[Grazzik]

If you don't want to house rule it out ...

All valid alternatives, SL. I use common sense flavored handwavium all the time.

GK, you may want to note where all these rules are that SL mentioned. I got frustrated because I kept forgetting them and/or got tired of stopping play to hunt them down in my book and doing the math. That's why I changed to my house rules which kinda simplified basic combat for us... but there are always exceptions. Hence, handwavium to keep the story moving...

[hup7]

IMHO the GI Joe rule is not terrible. There are a lot of weird rules in Rifts that different people accept or don't - which is half the fun, and why I say always ask your GM. But here is my take.

First futuristic armour might be designed along the same lines as modern cars - they take small amounts of damage up to a point (and can be repaired) but catastrophic damage actually causes it to break apart saving the occupant but destroying itself in the process. The other thing we have to keep in mind armour having "points" and weapons inflicting "points" is just an abstraction to make the game playable. If a player decides to try to exploit the rule by stacking 1 MDC armour or something stupid - the solution is simple (don't play with jerks vOv ), all armours become one layered pool - so damage transfers straight through each layer to the next until the FINAL layer.

The advantages of the GI Joe rule is it can create great moments of tension - not moments of maths killing someone. "You take 16 points" "Oh my armour had 15?" "Well you are dead." vs "You take 16 points, your armour disintegrates around you." "Oh ****!!!" I have NEVER had someone in a game say "phew I have 1 MDC left on my armour so I can take another hit, no worries I rush in." (Note I played a lot more Rifts BEFORE the GI Joe rule, but even then we used the mechanic of your are not instantly dead, unless it was a huge explosion or something obvious.) Another advantage, as a GM you don't have to try to fudge rolls to create tension, nor try to keep track of player's armour. It allows players to defeat enemies without accidentally vaporising half of them and visa-versa.

So what are the disadvantages? Really, if you play with jerks who try to exploit loop-holes in the rules; my opinion don't play with them. There are way too many ambiguous and poorly written rules in Rifts to have to deal with that sort of thing. I have always considered role playing games a gentleman's agreement - yes, I can exploit certain rule but I don't. That said, a very simple fix - the rule only applies to the final layer, or if you want the final hard layer to stop the undershirt armour exploit. So really the disadvantage your players might live longer? Is that a disadvantage? They can defeat enemies without killing them?

At the end of the day the rule is not an issue for me and it is extremely helpful to new players who might not know their "bug-out" point as well as experienced players.

But to each their own, happy gaming people.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kevin has stated that the GI-Joe rule has limits; if someone has 1 MDC in their armor and is hit for 100 MD, the damage gets through.

But he has never stated what those limits are.

Like most people, I ignore the rule.

But if I used it, I’d probably rule that the limit is a percentage of the armor’s max MDC.
For example, I might go with 50% if feeling generous, so 80 MDC armor could soak up to 40 MD in the last hit, and 40 MDC armor could soak 20 MDC, etc.

But I’d probably go for something lower, like 25-33% of max.

[General Kong]

A great thank-you to all for your answers. So, basically I understood the rule correctly (WHEW! What an relief! )and some of you use it or houserule it.
And I understand it all depends on the style and flair that you want your campaign to have: Heroic "Give a guy a last chance .." or gritty "Desintegrate the sucker!" or something in between by the use of Handwavium and Dependsium.

Okay, I can live (and game) with that.

[The Beast]

My group uses a modified version of the GI Joe rule, which is the remaining MD is treated as SDC to those characters caught in such a situation.

[guardiandashi]

depending on how you read the rules and apply them you can also get some weird effects. for instance by the rules, I have a character that is MDC. they are wearing MDC armor. they are doing a parachute entry (IE they jump out of a perfectly good airplane) they are falling far enough they hit terminal velocity IE ~12d6 damage its going to max out at ~60-70 damage.

so you fall, and as you get close to the ground you maneuver so you hit the ground feet first (and try to roll) you take 60 damage and ~60 sdc through the armor from the impact, so you take it to the logical extreme. the person jumps out of the plane at ~30-60,000 ft you hit the ground and your armor takes some damage (say 60 mdc) the character takes 60 SDC through the armor, so effectively nothing, they get up and climb out of the hole, they made in the ground, brush/ dust themselves off, and walk away

[Wise_Owl]

It's always seemed a weird add-on to me(I can't even recall the first time I heart it, anyone got a date on when it became a thing?)

When I was running rifts alot we created out own table for take more mega-damage than your armour can take'. Basically it involved limbs being vaporized, your face being seared off and your eyeballs bursting, massive internal damage, etc. The thought was to make the Medical OOC's really useful. It was always a bit of an adjudication thing, but it did mean that cybernetics was a not uncommon thing for squishy members of the party.

[Quentin Harlech]

I didn't want to start a new topic, but I have a somewhat related question.

In WB: Australia, they have rules for modifying guns. One of these rules is Full-Auto Trimming which converts a burst capable firearm into one that shoots volleys.

My problem is that I can't seem to find any rules for guns that fire volleys. They all seem to revolve around missiles.

So what exactly do those rules do? I'm speaking of both Full-Auto Trimming and volley firearms.

[Grazzik]

I didn't want to start a new topic, but I have a somewhat related question.

In WB: Australia, they have rules for modifying guns. One of these rules is Full-Auto Trimming which converts a burst capable firearm into one that shoots volleys.

My problem is that I can't seem to find any rules for guns that fire volleys. They all seem to revolve around missiles.

So what exactly do those rules do? I'm speaking of both Full-Auto Trimming and volley firearms.

Bursts and sprays are in RMB pg 34. In RUE, they rules are in the WPs pg 328-329.

In WB19, the Trimming reference of scaling the rate of fire down from bursts to volleys is odd. It does say "any weapon" so it might not have intended a firearm but instead something like an auto-grenade launcher. It could be a modification of weapons like the WI-GL20 (Mercenaries pg 105) that shoots single shot or bursts of 10 grenades! A "volley" might be just 2-4 grenades.

Or it could be that this is a modification to weapons like rail guns that ordinarily shoot bursts of 20-60 rounds so they can shoot 3-5 rounds instead. Whether you call that a "volley"...

Indeed, "volley" is odd.

[Quentin Harlech]

I'm particularly puzzled because the main thing about volleys seems to be that if you fire four, it makes all of them immune to being dodged for some reason. So that seems an incredibly powerful option when converting firearms or even just grenade launchers.

[Grazzik]

I'm particularly puzzled because the main thing about volleys seems to be that if you fire four, it makes all of them immune to being dodged for some reason. So that seems an incredibly powerful option when converting firearms or even just grenade launchers.

Don't get hung up on RAW volley rules for missiles when it comes to this reference. The writer probably used the wrong word and meant to use another word instead.

Remember also WB19 is pre-RUE. RMB had bursts as a % of the clip rather than the 3 or 6 round bursts in RUE. So, a long burst from a 30 round clip was 15 rounds in RMB, vs a 6 round long burst in RUE. Hence why trimming pre-RUE made sense if ammo is scarce.

[Quentin Harlech]

That does make a lot more sense in context with the other available mods. It's basically an ammo-saving mod. Got it. Thank you for your help.

[The Beast]

Will you all please stop loggin into the ghost site before you post anything.

[Quentin Harlech]

I have no idea what that means.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My problem is that I can't seem to find any rules for guns that fire volleys. They all seem to revolve around missiles.

That is because there are none. The text in the Australia world book would of done good to have a proofreader who knew the game system to edit them out. Which is a bit par for the course when talking about PB gamebooks. Even if 99.99% of the text is good, they have real zingers sometimes.

[Grazzik]

Will you all please stop loggin into the ghost site before you post anything.

Your going to have to explain that one. No idea what a "ghost site" is.