Mixing Psionics and Magic

[Grazzik]

For Rifts, can a human LLW or Shifter be a minor or major psychic? Or is all their PPE dedicated to magic and not transformed to ISP?

(canon answers pls or indicate where a house rule, thx!)

[darthauthor]

As I read Rifts Ultimate Edition page 289 they have the same chance as anyone on the psionics table during character creation.
Although, if you do it by the book there is only a 25% chance of psionics and at best it is either 8 from one category or 6 from the three minor categories.

[ShadowLogan]

If being a psychic is not part of the class (or race) it can still be achieved via the character creation rules (provided the race has access to psychic abilities) as mentioned above. Nothing really prevents circumventing the CCR in general (there might be specific use cases where psionics are not available), though it should be noted the CCR pre-RUE (and some other lines) inflicts skill penalties for being a Major Psychic this way.

[Grazzik]

Thanks folks, the CCR on RUE pg 289 is also supported by the note on pg 138

Note: A character of any OCC may have Minor or Major Psionic abilities

What's always bothered me though is that, while RUE pg 138 says "there is some sort of connection or similarity between psychic energy and magic", RMB pg 101 says the same thing except the sentence ends "... magic (both use PPE)"

So, I've always thought of ISP as a specialized form of PPE and that is why Mystics have a smaller PPE base, since they also have a ISP base. (As I play megaversally, I'm heavily influenced by BTS where this relationship between PPE and ISP is explicitly described.) It just seems a tad min/max-y to allow a LLW or Shifter have psionics (after a lucky low roll) basically free. Since 2 ISP = 1 PPE when it comes to charging TW items, would it make sense as a house rule to reduce a LLW PPE base during chargen by half the amount of their ISP base they gain with their psionics? Thoughts?

[Library Ogre]

So, I've always thought of ISP as a specialized form of PPE and that is why Mystics have a smaller PPE base, since they also have a ISP base. (As I play megaversally, I'm heavily influenced by BTS where this relationship between PPE and ISP is explicitly described.) It just seems a tad min/max-y to allow a LLW or Shifter have psionics (after a lucky low roll) basically free. Since 2 ISP = 1 PPE when it comes to charging TW items, would it make sense as a house rule to reduce a LLW PPE base during chargen by half the amount of their ISP base they gain with their psionics? Thoughts?

So, my view is that PPE is the pure form of psychic energy, while ISP is mental, and Chi is physical (being both influenced by the placement of physical objects through feng shui, and being directly related to the health of a person). One PPE breaks, roughly, into 1 ISP and 1 Chi. Using ISP instead of PPE is more expensive, because it is a somewhat filtered product

For non xCC psionics, I don't have that impact the character's PPE base... they just had this extra thing that they could do, not much different than "this guy rolled a really high PS". Personally, I'd prefer to make non-CC psionics have a cost in skills or something, but that's another thing entirely.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks folks, the CCR on RUE pg 289 is also supported by the note on pg 138

Note: A character of any OCC may have Minor or Major Psionic abilities

What's always bothered me though is that, while RUE pg 138 says "there is some sort of connection or similarity between psychic energy and magic", RMB pg 101 says the same thing except the sentence ends "... magic (both use PPE)"

So, I've always thought of ISP as a specialized form of PPE and that is why Mystics have a smaller PPE base, since they also have a ISP base. (As I play megaversally, I'm heavily influenced by BTS where this relationship between PPE and ISP is explicitly described.) It just seems a tad min/max-y to allow a LLW or Shifter have psionics (after a lucky low roll) basically free. Since 2 ISP = 1 PPE when it comes to charging TW items, would it make sense as a house rule to reduce a LLW PPE base during chargen by half the amount of their ISP base they gain with their psionics? Thoughts?

If you're going to reduce their PPE base, I wouldn't do it by HALF just for a couple minor powers.
Look up the PPE cost for those powers in BTS, and deduct that from their total PPE. That's the most I'd do along those lines.

Mystics have significantly more psionics than than a Minor or Major psychic, and they still have a pretty hefty PPE base of 1d6x10+20, compared to 3d6x10+20 for a LLW, and 2d6x10+10 for a Shifter.
Heck, Techno-Wizards start with 5 Minor psychic power and 1 major (telemechanics), and they still get 3d4x10 PPE to start.

[Grazzik]

If you're going to reduce their PPE base, I wouldn't do it by HALF just for a couple minor powers.
Look up the PPE cost for those powers in BTS, and deduct that from their total PPE. That's the most I'd do along those lines.

I suggested reducing their PPE by half their ISP base since 1 PPE = 2 ISP, not half their PPE base... that wouldn't be a fair trade

So, if by the rules in RUE a human LLW who was a Major psychic were to get a ISP base of (Rolls Dice) 36, I'd reduce their PPE base by 18. Doesn't sound too bad of a trade for 6-8 powers that don't require any vocalization and can work when magic doesn't (i.e. anti-magic cloud).

It's also more than just powers, there is also the improved save roll vs psionics...

Mystics have significantly more psionics than than a Minor or Major psychic, and they still have a pretty hefty PPE base of 1d6x10+20, compared to 3d6x10+20 for a LLW, and 2d6x10+10 for a Shifter.
Heck, Techno-Wizards start with 5 Minor psychic power and 1 major (telemechanics), and they still get 3d4x10 PPE to start.

RAW, Mystics are Major psychics (RUE pg 118) and TWs are Minor (RUE pg 128). Looking at their PPE bases seems to support my house rule mechanic in principle. Of course, we all know that there's no actual intentional math in RUE , so I'm just trying to formulate a house rule that approximates RUE's stats... So, for example:

Assuming PE and ME are 12 to meet attribute minimums
Using a max Shifter as a yard stick, since the LLW was intended to be the top shelf mage, the Shifter would have 142 PPE.
A max TW would have 132 PPE. So, 10 less than a Shifter.
A max Mystic would have 92 PPE. So, 50 less than a Shifter.
For perspective, a max LLW would have 212 PPE.

Looking at ISP...
The max TW would have 36 ISP
The max Mystic would have 62 ISP

Based on this, the Minor TW gains a lot more ISP per PPE lost (36/10 or 3.6 ISP = 1 PPE) than the Major Mystic (62/50 or 1.24 ISP = 1 PPE). This difference may be a function of being a Minor rather than a Major. I could house rule separate rates for Minors and Majors rounded down to also reflect the save roll bonus, landing on PPE conversion rates of 3 and 1 respectively, or simply leave it middle of the road at what I suggested originally 2 ISP = 1 PPE. All in all, it seems to work out in the grand scheme of things.