Horror Factor Tweek

[zombietots]

I was messing around with the idea of adjusting the HF after taking on an Arch Fiend and failing the HF. I re-read the rules and was shocked to see all that I lost was the first Melee ACTION. Then I would recover. This sounded kind of weak for a big scary demon thing looking to squash my tiny human body.

Arch Fiend HF 15
I rolled a 13.

Then it hit me! What if you just increase it by the amount failed?
So, I would lose 2 Actions.

If I roll a 2 I would be screwed and lose 13 Melee Actions and probably die while drooling.
Or maybe an Action lose for every 2 points you lose by or it just stops after the first melee round.
I lost 13 actions but only have 5 in the first melee round, so that is all I lost.

What do you think?

[Prysus]

I re-read the rules and was shocked to see all that I lost was the first Melee ACTION. Then I would recover.

Greetings and Salutations. For the record, that's not all that Horror Factor does. Failing a Horror Factor results in 3 things.

1: You lose initiative (don't even roll).
2: You lose one attack/action (presumably, your first action).
3: You cannot defend against the first attack.

So the order of events would be failing your Horror Factor. This means the Arch Fiend wins initiative.

Arch Fiend: *Attacks.* You cannot defend, so unless it rolls a Nat 1 or something, it's going to hit and deal damage.
Your Turn: Lost
Arch Fiend: *Attacks again.* At this point you can defend and things return mostly to normal (other than you still can't roll for initiative and will continue going last until next round).

I'm kind of okay with it as is. The way I figure it one of two things ...

1: The enemy is a serious threat. You've already taken a free hit, and it can continue to press it's advantage. You may want to consider retreating, or at least get out of the way and let some allies get its attention.
2: The enemy is NOT a threat. In which case, you may realize how unthreatening it is after that first hit. Also, why drag out things further?

Then it hit me! What if you just increase it by the amount failed?
[snip]
Or maybe an Action lose for every 2 points you lose by or it just stops after the first melee round.
[snip]
What do you think?

While I haven't tried it personally, from reading, this rule (in a vacuum) is the type of thing that would make me probably leave the game and start looking for a new group

Combat takes a while in real life, but typically only lasts one or two rounds in game. This feels more like ...

GM: Oh, that was a real bad roll. So ... This is probably going to take an hour or two. Why don't you go out and get everyone a pizza?
Me: We only have like 4 hours to play in the first place, and now you're telling me I have to miss half the game?
GM: Well, in all honesty, your character is effectively helpless so it'll probably die. You might as well just go home and make a new character. Maybe try again next week.

As haphazardly as Palladium gives things Horror Factors (Big Bore weapons, Wolfen and Trolls, Necromancers, and various O.C.C. and races and spells), a 1 bad roll and you're removed from game for the next hour or two (or character killed off entirely) is a bit too harsh for my tastes. Note: I know Palladium already has some abilities like this (such as Bio-Manipulation Paralysis or Cloud of Slumber), these are aspects I view as poorly designed instead of something we should try to repeat.

That's my take on the matter. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[zombietots]

Yes, I was taking all 3 into account.
Am I to assume you don't get your Armor? I was under the impression you lose the parry, dodge or entangle.
I also stated that it could be one whole round as the cut off, not all 13 actions over several rounds.

I have to disagree on fights takes a while IRL. Fire fights and H-to-H are usually less than 5 minutes unless it's a full-on battle or boxing and wrestling even then they have time limits. (The Boxing and wrestling)
Don't assume I meant a 1st level character either. While interesting, I am not that cruel *snicker wink wink*. It's just that seeing an Arch fiend for the first time and freaking out for only the equivalent of a few seconds seems rather weak.

Now if you're fine with it, that great. I'm sure most people are. I'm not knocking you or the game. I just think it's a tiny bit weak for something that terrifies you. sounds more like SURPRISE!!! big monster. Oops, I caught you off guard. not "OMG, OMG, OMG what do I do, aaaaaaaah!"

Peace be with you and good journey, friend.

[Prysus]

Am I to assume you don't get your Armor?

Greetings and Salutations. I have no idea what you're talking about here.

I was under the impression you lose the parry, dodge or entangle.

Okay, so we sound more or less in agreement on this part.

I also stated that it could be one whole round as the cut off, not all 13 actions over several rounds.

Yes, you did include that as one of your alternatives. Not the only option you included, but definitely one of them.

I have to disagree on fights takes a while IRL. Fire fights and H-to-H are usually less than 5 minutes unless it's a full-on battle or boxing and wrestling even then they have time limits. (The Boxing and wrestling)
Don't assume I meant a 1st level character either.

Well, let's run some numbers. I'll start with a fairly small party of only 3 players and 1 GM. Since we're discussing an Arch Fiend, I'll leave it as the only opponent. I'll provide an average of 5 attacks per character (which is a low level party, and probably still being a bit conservative, as 4 is a typical starting base from HtH and Boxing and various O.C.C. can add them up more). That's 20 attacks per melee round.

For combat to be over in 5 minutes, each person can only average 15 seconds to declare their action, roll their dice, have an opponent defend (when applicable), roll damage dice (when applicable), and do any math involved (including deducting damage from their character and/or armor.

I've never experienced a group speed RPG like that before, but I suppose it could be interesting to see. If each action only averaged 2 minutes, then we'd be up to 40 minutes for 1 melee round.

If we expand the group to 5 players, up them to 6 attacks, and figure they'd average 3 minutes per action, still leave it at only 1 NPC enemy, we're at an hour and a half for a single round (and to be done in under 5 minutes everyone would average less than 10 seconds an action).

Now, it's possible the party is either annihilating everything they encounter in a single action or two, or getting decimated in only 1 or 2 actions, but that sounds like an issue that has nothing to do with Horror Factor.

Now if you're fine with it, that great. I'm sure most people are. I'm not knocking you or the game. I just think it's a tiny bit weak for something that terrifies you.

Well, a lot will also do with if you limit Horror Factor to only be certain types of opponents. Instead of, you know, large sections of the game.

"Every bandit you encountered has had a Big Bore shotgun. But you rolles poorly this time, so you're stuck in a stupor for the next 15 seconds because you've never seen anything as terrifying as a Big Bore shotgun."

"You've been traveling side by side with the Dog Boy with wolf traits. But now a Wolfen attacks you and you rolled poorly, so the sight of a bipedal wolf is the most frightening thing you've ever seen before!"

I'm more opposed to making something so arbitrary even more impactful. Can it be done differently? Sure. Maybe it's done well, don't know. But that's also why I started taking the rule in a vacuum (absent of all your other house rules), I wouldn't ever use it. Farewell and safe journeys.



Edit:: And Horror Factor works both ways. So, facing a rule like that, would probably just try to convince the others to all play characters with a Horror Factor. Troll (HF 10) who can cast magic (for the level 2 spell Fear which provides a HF of 16), maybe the level 1 spell Thunderclap just in case). Maybe someone else can play a Necromancer. If in Rifts, try to acquire a Big Bore. Basically, just layer on the HF. With a multitude of rolls, most opponents will eventually fail. "So three of us failed, but the Arch Fiend failed one of its six rolls, so it's in a stupor too. Two of us saved, so we have about 10 free attacks to just unload on the Arch Fiend while it drools on itself."

I'm not generally an adversarial player, but also not afraid demonstrate why I think a rule doesn't work very well.

[zombietots]

I think a lot of that has to do with the Game Master. Does a Big Bore shotgun really scare a bunch of hardened Post Apocalypse warriors. No, they have seen stuff to make a ghost poop itself.

As for them (Let's say a group of 5th level Rifts Badasses who have never encountered A serious real Demon til now). Boom Arch Fiend!!! huh??? is that.
Let's Say Cyber knight, Ley Line Walker, Chuck the Full Borg, A Wolfen Wilderness Scout, Bobby the Merc.
Bobby Fails his HF and the rest pass. They all get Normal Initiative, and Bobby is drooling for the first minute until he re-composes himself.
During the first round he has friends to protect him, and he has his own Armor (Which is the point I was making earlier. You are afforded some protection while you are befuddled and trying to wrap your brain around the situation.) The Archfiend is preoccupied with the rest of the group.

In that situation, loss of a single action just seems weak. as for the loss of initiative, you have never seen me roll, it's abysmal. I lose initiative a lot.

I'm just saying it sounds too close to a quick surprise not a terrifying event. It might as well be called surprise factor.
Terror should have POW impact. I also believe that if the group see an Arch Fiend and live that everything else below that is a toy and not as scary. It would take quite a bit to startle the group. So, either modifiers in favor of the group or no roll at all.

But it will need to be test run. So, I will try it today and see how it goes.

Peace be with you and good journey, friend.

[foilfodder]

...
Let's say a group of 5th level Rifts Badasses who have never encountered A serious real Demon til now). Boom Arch Fiend!!! huh??? is that.
Let's Say Cyber knight, Ley Line Walker, Chuck the Full Borg, A Wolfen Wilderness Scout, Bobby the Merc.
Bobby Fails his HF and the rest pass. They all get Normal Initiative, and Bobby is drooling for the first minute until he re-composes himself.
During the first round he has friends to protect him, and he has his own Armor (Which is the point I was making earlier. You are afforded some protection while you are befuddled and trying to wrap your brain around the situation.) The Archfiend is preoccupied with the rest of the group.

In that situation, loss of a single action just seems weak. as for the loss of initiative, you have never seen me roll, it's abysmal. I lose initiative a lot.

I'm just saying it sounds too close to a quick surprise not a terrifying event. It might as well be called surprise factor.
Terror should have POW impact. I also believe that if the group see an Arch Fiend and live that everything else below that is a toy and not as scary. It would take quite a bit to startle the group. So, either modifiers in favor of the group or no roll at all.

In contrast to traditional Palladium Rifts game mechanics: the Savage Worlds adapted into the Savage Rifts material is wonderful for a GM that wants to play up the supernatural horror side of the settIng. Player characters botching their fear rolls can even end up with permanent insanities.

Houserules and homebrew have always been part of the Palladium games I have played and run. I would probably revamp Horror Factor to have multiple stages; example:
Level 1) rules as is for zombies and other mildly threatening d-bees
Level 2) big boys like dragons, gargoyle lords, ghosts/entities and vampires
Level 3) really nasty things like Death of the Four Horseman or catching a glimpse of a sleeping Old One

[zombietots]

Nope. I won't be playing anything from Savage Worlds. I prefer the Palladium System. The books may be useful as supplemental material, but I won't play their game system or purchase anything else from them. They did me wrong and they have been placed into "The Book of Grudges"