Everything you think about the VF-8 Logan is probably wrong

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Let's cut to the chase: the Logan is not, has never been and demonstrably will never be 'lightly armored' and/or 'lightly armed'. The people who wrote those statements didn't pay attention to the series. The various RPG stats have almost all gotten this completely wrong, making the Logan less armored than (say) the Valkyrie. The exact opposite would be true. The Logan is 1/6th the volume of the Valkyrie, but only 1/2 its weight. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. The Logan is literally a flying armored bathtub. I'm not saying its unbeatable, btw, so save that strawman for someone else.

The idea of the Logan being less armored than the Valkyrie is absurd on its face for a number of reasons. First, when comparing apples to apples (Cannon Fodder Veritechs to other Cannon Fodder Veritechs) we can see the Logan takes multiple hits (3+) from what are clearly Anti-Tank Grade weaponry (no mecha-grade beam weapon in Robotech is going to be doing much less than a dozen Mega-Joules in energy) as seen in Southern Cross. We also see that Cannon Fodder Logan's can deflect incoming beam fire, taking roughly 6 strikes along the edge of the wing/shield, completely ablating them away in the process. That is a level of material technology that simply does not exist for the Valkyrie or 1st Generation Destroids. It likely doesn't even exist for the 2nd Generation Destroids and 2nd Generation Veritechs: VF-3 Raven II (aka the Delta Fighter), VF-4 Artemis, VF-5 Sylphide, VFA-6 Alpha and VA-1 Condor. The Valkyrie (like other large mecha) have Galileo's Square Cube Law to contend with, and the larger surface area means less can be devoted to armor. It simply doesn't have the mass budget to devote to protection like the Logan can because of a number of factors (not the least of which is its made with half-understood technology nearly 2 decades before the Logan).

We also know Cannon Fodder Alpha's, for example, can be killed by a mecha that wields a blade for its weapon as shown in The Invid Invasion. And we know a Hero Valkyrie (Rick Hunter) can be crippled by a low-velocity impact against sharpened prongs (the armor is literally pierced front and back to come out through the chest plate of the Valkyrie) as shown in First Contact. By comparison, we know a Hero Logan (Marie Crystal) can survive a high speed head-on impact with a Bioroid and only have a wing sheared off and part of the fuselage crack (the canopy literally stays intact) after being caught by Sean Phillip's Hovertank in Star Dust.

Fans need to rethink everything they think they know about Logan. Yea, it doesn't carry a large amount of expendable ordinance. Big deal. It can't 'Zoom and Boom'. So. What. Its got a rapid-fire nose-mounted beam cannon that can be used in all modes and a rapid-fire beam gun pod that can be fired in Battloid. We know that BVR missiles have been rendered almost obsolete due to the enemy's ECM/ECCM technology that even makes visual identification difficult as shown in False Start.

The fact is the Logan has been very poorly represented by every RPG licensee, including the current one. Some of this is due in part to those involved literally not watching the show and relying on 'what they think they know'; ie - letting their aesthetic bias cloud their judgement. I'm not saying you have to like the Logan. Hell, you can hate it for all I care. But don't sit there and claim its 'weak' and then use the RPG as justification for that claim. You wanna prove me wrong/claim I'm full of drek? Then prove me wrong, but USE THE SHOW as the evidence.

[ShadowLogan]

Fans need to rethink everything they think they know about Logan. Yea, it doesn't carry a large amount of expendable ordinance. Big deal. It can't 'Zoom and Boom'. So. What. Its got a rapid-fire nose-mounted beam cannon that can be used in all modes and a rapid-fire beam gun pod that can be fired in Battloid. We know that BVR missiles have been rendered almost obsolete due to the enemy's ECM/ECCM technology that even makes visual identification difficult as shown in False Start.

It isn't just the FANS it is also HG/licensors.

I do agree with you about the expendable ordnance. If we look at ASC mecha as a whole, on average they are appear to be missile light even before the arrival of the ECM wielding Masters. It does appear that the ASC doctrine for some reason shifted away from missile reliance and shifted to more of a close range "gunfighter".

I also agree about the Logan's guns. WHEN we see it HIT they are pretty devastating to Bioroids resulting in "red shirt kills" (Marie does duel Zor Prime, so main character plot armor here), but there are numerous examples where we DO NOT see the shots hit either because it wasn't shown (most cases) or dodged/evaded. The shots that are incomplete might skew peoples thinking I think, they assume the shots hit and did not damage (no explosions) but give the other shots it seems just as/if not more probable that it missed for some reason.

The fact is the Logan has been very poorly represented by every RPG licensee, including the current one.

I can't speak for the stats in the current holder (don't have any of their books), but I have to point out that the 1E PB version of the Logan is not "poorly represented" overall (I'm not saying there aren't issues):
1. it has the 2nd most powerful (series) Veritech equipped gun (nose) in the game when you consider range and damage on a per attack basis, eclipsed only by the VHT's Ion Cannon.
2. the Logan's nose gun is also potentially the most powerful Veritech Gun system in the 1E RPG, 1d6x10 per attack (4-5 @Level 1) with unlimited payload allows it to eclipse the VHT's Ion Cannon due to ROF/Payload issue. Destabilizers being one-trick ponies with their special ability to punch holes in force fields, they don't have the range or payload (which is inferior to the Logan's gunpod)
3. the Logan's Speed in F and G (accurate to the dialogue) was not the slouch it comes across in 2E (based on HG stats, which are influenced by the uRRG which AFAIK have no basis in the OSM). The F mode is the 3rd Fastest (series) VF in F mode (Beta/Super VF-1) and the FASTEST Guardian mode (the others basically being static, the Beta being slightly slower)

Where it has issues (in the 1E) mechanically is the MDC assigned to it, which seems to be "smaller" size means "lower" armor values (common for the ASC I would say, though the VHT breaks that and the AGAC is "sized" approx. to an Alpha IIRC). Mechanically its bonuses aren't better or worse than other (series) VFs overall (due to the shields its better at parry with them). Note though that if laser weapons where the main weapons of the enemy the ASC mecha armor would be "comparable" to the RDF/REF armor of 1E in many cases (assuming we try to match roles).

quick Note: by Series Veritech I mean Veritechs that appear in the animation, I am not considering PB's "prototypes" found in Bk6r or Bk8, nor the accuracy of Palladium (Vindicator)

Spoiler:

I did a side project to calculate VF thrust using experienced Drag Forces last year, while the results omit certain factors (that can reduce and increase drag) the preliminary results end up giving the Logan a T/W ratio of 4.97 using Canon/2E speeds (better than the AGAC ironically) and using the 1E PB RPG stats was 43.1 (the king of 1E VF mecha I looked at, the Beta was next "closest" and that was by a decent gap). This also assumes that a Drag @ Listed Speeds does not exceed 33% of Maximum Thrust (based on a sampling of real world aircraft being averaged)

I also did another side project that I completed comparing combat effectiveness of the PB RPG mecha. At least for 1E, the Logan actually beat out the regular VF-1 (which landed smack dab into the range of Cyclone configurations I considered), in 2E with the "bias" it didn't do as good, when going up against the alien mecha (only alien mecha, though it did better against non-Zentreadi). I haven't posted this due to the shear size of the results of the mecha breakdown (over 10 pages per edition, not posting friendly).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

It does appear that the ASC doctrine for some reason shifted away from missile reliance and shifted to more of a close range "gunfighter".

Well, the UEDF moved its long range missiles to the Arbalest vehicles (and presumably others). For short range it had the vehicles like the M-70 Kodiak and such. I think a lot of fans don't grasp that mecha bearing missiles like the Destroids would be an absolute pain to reload in the field. Conversely, vehicles like the Arbalest have an easy reload system (we see the rear of the vehicle a handful of times and you can see where the missiles can be reloaded).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I can't speak for the stats in the current holder (don't have any of their books)

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered:

Even though the VF-8 type fared well against the Masters’ Bioroids at the start of the war, the Logan was too lightly armed compared to other mecha in use by both sides.

They also gave it Armor (1) equal to the Battlepod (1), but less Structure (1) than the Battlepod (2). I gave up arguing with them because they're imbeciles and refuse to listen. They refuse outright any/all complaints, even when shown direct evidence from the Tv series, such as their idiotic claim the Chimera is slower than the Ajax in space. This despite that claim being shown to be wrong in when we see Chimera's outrun Ajax in The Hunters when a trio of them are trying to get away from the Tristar's Orbital Warp Blast maneuver.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, the UEDF moved its long range missiles to the Arbalest vehicles (and presumably others). For short range it had the vehicles like the M-70 Kodiak and such. I think a lot of fans don't grasp that mecha bearing missiles like the Destroids would be an absolute pain to reload in the field. Conversely, vehicles like the Arbalest have an easy reload system (we see the rear of the vehicle a handful of times and you can see where the missiles can be reloaded).

It likely isn't just the missiles, its all the projectile based weapons (the projectile guns might be "easier" due to their smaller size than missiles but...) given they are all at roughly the same height above the ground (Monster being larger, and the Tomahawk does have the lower hanging leg missiles being the exceptions).

What little we see of the RDF and ASC nt-Battloids in their "hangar berths" is they are standing erect, which likely means that servicing them takes place in a similar position and potentially requires some degree of specialization to (I doubt you could just park a Defender in a Monster slot, or go cross saga). Field servicing likely is a pain requiring additional support vehicles/mecha capable of accessing those greater heights.

Makes me wonder if either organization utilized something like a mobile ballistic missile launch vehicle that stored the BM horizontally and then raised it to a vertical position for launch only substituting the nt-Battloid for the BM (I know Gundam franchise utilizes something like this in a few shows at least)?

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered:

I'm not surprised. While one could play word games due to the wording HG uses as being vague I doubt that is the justification though.

Its like what I said earlier, you have to get HG to change their mind (which isn't likely to happen w/o a change in leadership). The licensor(s) might be ham strung by them no matter how much evidence is provided.

[Jefffar]

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered

The Logan has one of the nastiest mecha mounted guns in the game. It basically ignores the armour of any mecha sized target.

[ShadowLogan]

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered

The Logan has one of the nastiest mecha mounted guns in the game. It basically ignores the armour of any mecha sized target.

If we're talking the 1E PB RPG you are right, 8k ft range (VHT Ion Cannon and AJAX "gunpod" match this), CHTH ROF (best), 1d6x10 per attack (2nd best). The 2E PB version of the weapon (by RAW) is lack luster in comparison* being shorter range and damage than its gunpod!

*unless multi-barrel weapons in the TRM and NG saga in 2E you're supposed to multiply them out by the number of barrels as "obvious". This would fix the Logan's nose gun, the Silverback's x2 barrel railgun (no real advantage to it over the x1 barrel version), the Alpha's gunpod (3 barrel), and likely several others I'm not thinking of.

[Jefffar]

Talking about the game from Strange Machine which I believe RSCF was referring to.

[taalismn]

I always regarded the Logan as the VW Bug of the Veritech line; light, reliable, affordable, tough, easy on parking space, if rather limited utility-wise.
The VF-1 Valkyrie's the Mustang of the Veritechs.
The Alpha, judging from the above comments, seems to be a Ford Pinto....

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The main takeaway is the Logan should absolutely have more armor than either the Valkyrie or the Alpha. Both are limited by the Square Cube Law and the Alpha has to make allowances for the all the micro-missile launchers in its hull. That eats up a ton of the mass budget. The Valkyrie is even worse because its so much larger. Just like the asinine over estimation of the armor on the Zentraedi mecha vs the Bioroids. Its upside down and arse backwards of how it should be.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not sure I would go with more armor for the Logan compared to the Valk or Alpha (in PB's estimation of the main body), that isn't to say some locations might not make up for it (like the wing/shields, something lacking in PB 2E and I can't speak for SMG's version) due to combat use doctrine (ie Logan has parrying shields, it would make sense to factor them in*).

The only reason I would not push for more armor than the VF-1/6 though is you'd have to show that the various mecha are also armored using the same materials and the possible presence of "exotic" features is consistent (as examples: laser resistant materials in the dialogue, Macross's Energy-Conversion-Armor from OSM background, etc). There would seem to be a bit more to consider than just the simple mass/volume of the mecha. At least in game terms it might also be worth considering just what goes into the "armor" value, it might not just be "armor" but other things (in PB system if you take enough damage you can start to have system health issues so we know it isn't just armor) included which might give the larger mecha a "boost" (the Logan's smaller size might prevent the inclusion of heavily redundant systems for example).

At least in terms of the Palladium RPGs (I can't speak for the SMG line), in the 1E the Total MDC to Mass ratio the Logan actually had a better ratio than the other regular Veritechs (not counting the Cyclones) for the series mecha (3rd w/their "prototypes" included 2nd best is their "Super Logan" and then the VF-1X), and in 2E that didn't change (not counting the Cyclone and Silverbacks). So it might not look like it just looking at the "Main Body", but there is a Point-of-View (even if abstract like this) that establishes the Logan has better armor even if it doesn't look like it.

*

Spoiler:

In the previously mentioned RPG evaluation I did factor this in with one battle scenario (there where several). I really have to get around to posting the results even if its just the summary.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The only reason I would not push for more armor than the VF-1/6 though is you'd have to show that the various mecha are also armored using the same materials and the possible presence of "exotic" features is consistent (as examples: laser resistant materials in the dialogue, Macross's Energy-Conversion-Armor from OSM background, etc). There would seem to be a bit more to consider than just the simple mass/volume of the mecha.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The volume and mass absolutely are limiting factors for the Valkyrie and the Alpha as far as armor because of Galileo's Square Cube Law. Its also like the difference between RHA and Composite Laminar. You cannot explain the Logan's mass otherwise.

- First off, there is the obvious advances in material sciences over the Valkyrie (~20yrs). The Valkyrie cannot have been built with materials more advanced than by 2004/05 to be able to reach mass production and introduction by 2007. They were also obviously produced using Stand Production, whereas the Alpha and Logan were almost assuredly produced using the Robotech Satellite's (1, 2 or all 3). These behemoth factories likely would also have made the advance in material sciences possible.

- Then there is the apples to apples comparison: Valkyrie cannot absorb low velocity impacts vs the Logan (let alone high velocity ones: Roy's comments on the crashed Test Valkyrie vs Marie's impact against the Biroid and Sean catching her mecha in Battloid); Cannon Fodder Valkyries tend to be destroyed in 1 hit by enemy mecha, Cannon Fodder Logans tend to be destroyed in 3+ hits from enemy mecha, Cannon Fodder Alphas can be destroyed by enemy bladed weapons.

- Only some components are going to be analogous between the vehicles vis-a-vis mass: the cockpit module and (probably) the engines. But the Reflex Furnaces obviously have to shrink to fit the Alpha, let alone the Logan. And the beam weapons also obviously advanced over the Valkyrie because the Logan's don't overheat (and also have obviously got to shrink to fit into the hull).

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not saying Mass/Volume Ratio isn't a factor, I'm just saying it isn't the sole factor here you make it out to be. Factors like how the mass is allocated have to be considered (the heavier mecha having more mass available to devote to "armor"), material properties are also important (we don't have a reliable system for comparison), special system features that could be present (due to OSM use for one era, but not allowed in later ones like Macross's Energy Conversion Armor because [some] people want to keep the eras as reliant on their OSM as possible).

You claim the VF-1 had to be produced using Earth available materials and later have to be using stuff recovered from the RFS(s), but the SDF-1 was carrying examples of advanced materials itself possibly even production equipment given the rapid progress made. It's also possible as a Tyrolian ship the SDF-1 had more advanced stuff on it than in the RFS producing stuff for the Zentreadi especially given we're talking about a ship that (apparently) is connected to Zor (said to be responsible for all the advancements of the Tyrolians in dialogue IIRC, which if true might make the SDF-1 a candidate to have R&D stuff onboard since we don't know what Zor all did on the ship).

As for the visual footage. I do not disagree per say, but there could be more going on in those situations that could influence the perceived outcomes without (apparent) consideration for them. Could Sean have taken action to minimize damage to Marie's Logan in that catch? (I sure hope so). Could the Invid Claw be designed to "slice into" armor by some means? What is the purpose (and material properties) of those spikes in the Zentreadi hold? How do the various attack-shots compare in terms of destructive energy (it could be x3 shots from TRM-era mecha are equal to x1 shot from TMS/NG-era mecha)? What about the presence of multi-barrel attacks (Battlepod PBCs are 4x barrels inside the main barrel, so 1x shot from them could be argued is really x4, where other mecha don't have those sub-barrels AFAIK) and how you count them?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I'm not saying Mass/Volume Ratio isn't a factor, I'm just saying it isn't the sole factor here you make it out to be. Factors like how the mass is allocated have to be considered (the heavier mecha having more mass available to devote to "armor")

The exact OPPOSITE is true with regards to larger mecha. The larger they are, the less mass they can devote to armor and still be able to stand up.

From Peter Walker, talking about this very subject:

Essentially, the numbers work out like this - if you treat a mecha as having a "strength" limit (which will scale with the square of the scale factor), and if its weight comes from a fixed component (cockpit, sensor package), a scale-cubed component (skeleton), and a scale-squared-times-thickness component, then the bigger the mecha gets, the less remaining mass budget it has for armor thickness.

We know the Valkyrie has brittle armor because we see it when Breetai batters Hunter's VF-1J into submission in First Contact. The Valkyrie's armor is punctured completely (front and back) by wall spikes.

You claim the VF-1 had to be produced using Earth available materials and later have to be using stuff recovered from the RFS(s), but the SDF-1 was carrying examples of advanced materials itself possibly even production equipment given the rapid progress made.

It was produced before Robotechnology was even fully understood.

How do the various attack-shots compare in terms of destructive energy (it could be x3 shots from TRM-era mecha are equal to x1 shot from TMS/NG-era mecha)? What about the presence of multi-barrel attacks (Battlepod PBCs are 4x barrels inside the main barrel, so 1x shot from them could be argued is really x4, where other mecha don't have those sub-barrels AFAIK) and how you count them?

You're going to seriously claim The Masters gave their warrior-slaves more powerful weapons than their own elite armed forces? That's the hill you want to die on? We know the Bioroid drum gunpod can penetrate Armored Vehicles like APCs because we see them destroy M2200 Janissary's in Southern Cross. That makes them Anti-Tank grade weapons.

[ShadowLogan]

The exact OPPOSITE is true with regards to larger mecha. The larger they are, the less mass they can devote to armor and still be able to stand up.

Not necessarily. If the Logan can devote say 10% of its dry mass to armor where the VF-1 can only do 5%, that still means they end up with the same amount of (overall) armor mass. Which would bring us back to things like material properties and such. Now the Logan can concentrate the armor, but without knowing the properties or some non-biased method (and Game Mechanics don't count) to compare them we have no actual basis to say X is better than Y, which is why I would rather put the mecha on par with each other to avoid the potential blind spot of personal bias (It is NOT that I PREFER the Logan to have lighter Armor compared to the VF-1, I would actually prefer it should have more, but I do recognize there are a lot of speculative assumptions here which is why I PREFER the neutral/middle result).

We know the Valkyrie has brittle armor because we see it when Breetai batters Hunter's VF-1J into submission in First Contact. The Valkyrie's armor is punctured completely (front and back) by wall spikes.

And what are those spikes made of? How was the spike rack constructed? What was even the purpose of the spike rack? The spikes could have penetrated because they had no where else to go instead of breaking off/deforming.

The assumption is that the spikes are a low impact interaction, if we assume when Breetai tossed the Battloid into those spikes it was at a velocity of 10m/s and the Valk has a dry mass of 13.3metric tons (13,300kg per RT.com) that means when the battloid struck the spikes it would hit with 665KJ of kinetic energy (for comparison the AH-64's 30mm cannon has 112KJ, the A-10s 30mm is 1,023KJ both stats found online forum). That means Rick's Battloid struck those spikes with the KE range of 30mm anti-tank guns. Now 10m/s might be to high, it might be to low I don't know I will admit I haven't taken the time to actually try to figure the velocity out (and I don't plan to), but even at 5m/s instead that's still ~166KJ (~106KJ @ 4m/s, in the 3m/s we're talking about a 20mm cannon round IINM). And this assumes just the dry-mass of the VF-1, the mass would actually be higher due to consumables like fuel, missiles (if any are left, I know he lost his gunpod), and life support never mind Rick himself so there is actually even more KE.

It was produced before Robotechnology was even fully understood.

That doesn't mean they don't have more advanced materials they could have developed using Robotechnology (or even duplicated from). That doesn't rule out "recycling" advanced materials they could have "recovered" from the SDF-1 (or examples of alien mecha/vehicles carried on board). That doesn't rule out finding production equipment that would normally be used to effect repairs on the SDF-1 or other hardware that could be repurposed.

You're going to seriously claim The Masters gave their warrior-slaves more powerful weapons than their own elite armed forces? That's the hill you want to die on?

I agree it is unlikely that every Zentreadi weapon would be more powerful than the Masters, but there could be exceptions where the Zentreadi have to be at least on par to be a viable force to be taken seriously by the enemies of the Masters as their army/police force.

If one give credence to the uRRG stats (I don't) even they seem to go with this line of thinking. The common Zentreadi Battlepods main twin PCBs have a combined energy output of 2.5MJx4x2=20MJ, firing in pairs is standard in the animation. The Bioroid Gunpods do 11MJ and 15MJ respectively, and their Sled twin guns do 20MJ combined (par with the Regult's twin PCBs).

[The Artist Formerly]

The Logan is inferior to the VF series Valks and the Alpha/Beta because it's not the star of the T.V. show (that's the hovertank). Visually boring, just distinct enough to know what it is (airplane) and what it's about (airplane stuff in the back ground). It's a secondary machine and like anything without a distinct paint job, it's job is to lose so hovertanks can look awesome. That's the meta for it's screen time and is reflected in it's game stats.

In game system, the Logan's lack of missiles is it's weakness. It just can't bring the thunder that either the VFs or the Alpha can. It's direct fire weapons are fine, but lack burst fire is a tactical limiter. Upper mid tier damage is nice, but the nose gun (your best gun) stuck forward limits run (away) and gun options.

These limitations within the game system, plus the lack of screen time and screen development, makes it meh machine. As far as the physics of what we see, it's handwavium. Within the animes, any weapon can destroy any other machine as the writers/animation team saw fit (think of that one gray VF from Macross that gets killed every couple of episodes). Then think about how many moving parts a jet fighter or tank has, then add another 10,000 moving parts, gears and motors to that. Theses things would never work. Hell, we can't even keep the Osprey flying in the real world.

[ShadowLogan]

n game system, the Logan's lack of missiles is it's weakness. It just can't bring the thunder that either the VFs or the Alpha can. It's direct fire weapons are fine, but lack burst fire is a tactical limiter. Upper mid tier damage is nice, but the nose gun (your best gun) stuck forward limits run (away) and gun options.

While I agree the Logan lacks the ability to deliver a massive volley of missiles, its (stock) gun fighting ability surpasses the (stock) gun fighting ability of the VF-1 and Alpha regardless of PB RPG edition. The VF-1 and Alpha both utilize the same built-in jet laser array in 2E, which is inferior to the Logan's nose gun in 2E (and in 1E the Logan's built-in guns surpass the VF-1s), while the Logan's 2E gunpod appears to be stated with Bias in mind it can be self-recharged where the VF-1/Alpha gunpods cannot do that (and in 1E, the Logan's GP can drop a Battlepod in 2 attacks assuming "average" damage, that really is no better than the VF-1's HOWEVER the VF-1 would need 2-melee periods to accomplish this where the Logan only needs 2-melee actions and the Alpha's can do it in x1 the weapon can't fire again for the melee period IIRC, which means in a 15second period the Logan can theoretically drop 4-6 battlepods in the same time it would take the VF-1 to drop 1 and the Alpha to drop 2 back in 1E).

I disagree about the "burst fire" as both of its guns can reasonably be considered to be shown firing bursts in the animation. Now PG RPG mechanically may differ from this depending on edition and system, but that's a result of the PB "adaption" to what's depicted and we know they don't always get things adapted "right".

I do agree about the nose gun being limited, but that may also be why the weapon was able to be made "so good".

These limitations within the game system, plus the lack of screen time and screen development, makes it meh machine.

The thing is when doing the game system it doesn't have to be done to mirror the series in terms of what is the "star" mecha in the game. In fact it should be done to avoid the issue of bias (non-star, background, etc) allowing a fair comparison. It's like someone is trying to justify the "star" status, but can only do so by making everything else look bad (when it could be the pilot skill that makes it's depiction so good in universe, I mean we see "stars" operate the Alpha and VF-1 with "skill", but if we assessed the ability of the units by their "redshirt" pilots who apparently lack the skills).

I'm not sure I necessarily agree per say about the Logan's star status of the show, yeah its not the Star (VHT) but it really isn't a background redshirt (like the various non-VTs in the ASC) either, I'd go with "guest star" until the co-star "AGAC" is introduced. In "Volunteers" Marie pilots the Logan with extreme lethality (VF-1 using pure guns doesn't really approach this level either), unlike its other appearances where while its shown to shoot most of the time we aren't shown either if it hit or not or "gets shrugged-off".

[The Artist Formerly]

Eh...

Within the game system, the lack of burst fire in the weapon stat block is the key limiter. I can walk fire across a group of anti-RDF/UEG rebels using the GU-11. In guardian mode I can burst at 3 or 4 bravo Pappas as they are running away from a food raid on the town New New New Hanford, trying to convince them to surrender. This gives the player more options and there for more agency in game. The missile system of Valks also provides more options and there for more agency to the player. You can always house rule it if you feel you should or it makes better story, but that varies game table to game table.

To address the ammo issue, you're right. Unlimited ammo is far better the anything less that. However in play ammo limits tend to be a story element, either forcing players to mother ammo or problem solve around it. Usually a pc Valk is on fire in a crater long before the GU-11 runs dry.

And to speak to Marie's showing, that's to demonstrate her skill as a rival/antagonist to Dana. That's the meta there.

The Valks, VF series if you prefer, has a very 80s feel to it in all the right ways. There is a reason for it being the face of the brand. For Palladium, it allowed players to have a fantasy of being the highest rifle, call sign smavrick. That's why it has favorited stats.

[ShadowLogan]

In 2E though the Logan's nose gun is described as firing a burst (6 round), though the gunpod is still described as firing a blast (which is the term used in 1E for both guns). Granted I don't recall the RPG's mechanical definition for what constitutes a blast or not off hand in this case.

While the VF-1/Alpha missile playload can give the units some additional flexibility over the Logan, it's important to remember that these mecha are all in different "weight" classes. Of course a heavy/medium-heavy fighter is going to have a larger payload option than a light fighter, but there is nothing to suggest the missiles carried by one mecha are any less effective than the others (in terms of same classification).

As for ammo needing to be tracked to suit the plot, that would be a house rule IMHO. Depending on dice rolls and the situation, the GU-11 can eat through ammo pretty fast (regardless of edition) in my experiences based on RAW in the PB system (can't attest to alternate systems OR house ruled modifications of the PB system).

[The Artist Formerly]

I think we're talking past each other. Let me reset and try to clarify.

The stat block of a weapon needs to have the burst descriptor in it. That's some what rare for a energy weapon in palladium system outside of Rifts. The burst stat block descriptor allows spray multiple targets which was my point. Single shot gun pod, even with more damage, is less useful. Which was my point.

The VF series and Alpha carries more missiles and there for more useful to play. Missile stats are hardcoded. coded, but more is better. Which adds to play, and that is my point.

I did not mean to suggest that players don't track ammo loads. Rather that few adventures run enough combat to run dry a GU-11. A gun fight that runs that long tends to bore a gaming table. Smaller fights, even if groupped together generally allow the chance to withdraw and rearm. Palladium combat is an algebra test with dice and pizza. So little breaks in combat to develop the plot are more likely unless you're doing a "hold the line" or "deep behind enemy lines" story arc, which was my point. Only a "you can't rearm" story is where you're going to really feel that. And even then, the Valk's missiles and lasers and other lasers and hand to hand combat and the ability to pick up a zent rifle, gives it enough other options to keep it in the fight. Logan is not picking up a bioriod blaster. It would be like my cat trying to pick up my coffee cup.

[ShadowLogan]

The 2E Logan Nose Gun does have "burst" in the stat block descriptor. I've also seen "blast" in the 1E VF-1 Jet Lasers, but then go on to state "short bursts only". By the rules though, mecha combat may not allow for "spray" attacks as bursts are subject to the same restrictions as volleys in that they have to be fired at the same target (Robotech RPG-1E pg35-6 under Mecha Combat Rules section, Rifts Main Book pg40 same section as before, and 2E/RUE seem to ignore this section and spray rules all together). Even the spray rules of the 1E/RMB-era may not be compatible with the mecha guns of that era, 2E/RUE might allow for it but then they seem to have dropped spray rules.

I get that about the ammo loads, but also recall that we have dice rolls and encounter sizes which are going to vary by session. Dice Rolls alone could mean you miss or don't do enough damage in a given attack necessitating a followup (which can miss). I'd also point out that at least in 1E, the Logan's longer range guns can allow it to make up for the lack of missiles with the right tactics (8,000ft nose gun, means if the Logan elects to keep its distance it could potentially negate the missile payload issue by not entering range of attackers typical weapon systems which will top out at 4000ft unless dealing with missiles or very specific guns)

And I have to disagree with you about the Logan not being able to pickup a Bioroid gunpod, yes it can as a Bioroid isn't that much bigger than it in 'bot mode regardless of edition (logan is ~5.35m tall, the Bioroid is ~6.65m tall, basically the difference between a 6ft tall human and one 5.5ft tall). That isn't to say it couldn't be awkward due to the design (even bioroids have the issue), and it wouldn't be able to carry in F-mode (then again, the same is likely true of the VF-1 or Alpha carrying Zentreadi infantry weapons).

[taalismn]

And I have to disagree with you about the Logan not being able to pickup a Bioroid gunpod, yes it can as a Bioroid isn't that much bigger than it in 'bot mode regardless of edition (logan is ~5.35m tall, the Bioroid is ~6.65m tall, basically the difference between a 6ft tall human and one 5.5ft tall). That isn't to say it couldn't be awkward due to the design (even bioroids have the issue), and it wouldn't be able to carry in F-mode (then again, the same is likely true of the VF-1 or Alpha carrying Zentreadi infantry weapons).

Of course, it might be a moot point in that the weapons drums/blasters can be fired by non-Tirolian mecha in the first place. There might be safety interlocks or trigger interfaces that are engaged/disengaged when the bioroid holds it. It would be like trying to fit a Russian-made gun or rocket pod on a NATO fighter's hard points. Oh, a good mechanic/electrician team MIGHT be able to make it work with hours of adaptation, but not straight out of the ordnance depot.

(Then of course, we have PC mechanics/robotechnicians, who are, of course, all Mister Scotts..at least in their own minds).

[The Artist Formerly]

Good point, first edd. had notes for the VF and Gladiator picking up a zent rifle.

[ShadowLogan]

There might be safety interlocks or trigger interfaces that are engaged/disengaged when the bioroid holds it.

Possibly, but mechanically such a feature isn't mentioned in the either PB RPG edition or the series itself (where no one tries to use another faction's "gunpods" for their mecha regardless of generation, sure we see giant Zentreadi using GU-11s but not them in PA).

[taalismn]

I'd expect the Masters to be paranoid enough to have safety interlocks on their own weapons...though the size of a bioroid drum's hand grips as opposed to a Zentraedi's hand might be deterrence enough.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

That isn't to say it couldn't be awkward due to the design (even bioroids have the issue)

Except the 'awkward design' was literally disproved by showing the Bioroids holding the drum by the foregrip and burst firing in Prelude to Battle. Its an asinine mechanical rule that is not backed up by the animation.

[ShadowLogan]

Is it awkward due to the grip distribution or is there another design aspect that could render it awkward to use? The weapon (in 2E) is considered front heavy, which could make it awkward to use due to weight distribution as part of its construction.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Is it awkward due to the grip distribution or is there another design aspect that could render it awkward to use? The weapon (in 2E) is considered front heavy, which could make it awkward to use due to weight distribution as part of its construction.

That's one of the reasons for a foregrip to compensate for....

[Jefffar]

Front heavy can be a useful trait in a weapon that generates a lot of recoil either due to its high power, it's high rate of fire, or both. It help keeps the barrel alligned with the target instead of having it flip up into the air.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Front heavy can be a useful trait in a weapon that generates a lot of recoil either due to its high power, it's high rate of fire, or both. It help keeps the barrel aligned with the target instead of having it flip up into the air.

The drum barrel also can elevate/depress as shown in the animation. The entire line of reasoning for the claim of an 'awkward design' has literally no basis in anything other than 'reasons'.

[taalismn]

Note to weapons designers: Do NOT design awkward weapons as 'good enough' when the rest of the weapons system they're part of can still stomp you flat in the hands of angry pilots.

[ShadowLogan]

Is it awkward due to the grip distribution or is there another design aspect that could render it awkward to use? The weapon (in 2E) is considered front heavy, which could make it awkward to use due to weight distribution as part of its construction.

That's one of the reasons for a foregrip to compensate for....

But is the forgrip and mecha's strength actually enough to compensate for the weight or not. Palladium may be thinking that it is not, I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but that does seem to be what they are thinking that the weight distribution is what makes it awkward.

It's also possible the awkwardness is for a single handed grip and not a twin grip, though this is wild speculation given they don't mention it. This makes a bit of sense to, given the bioroid does operate it single handed lots of times (especially on their sleds), though which is done more (1x or 2x grip) I don't know off hand so while the Bioroid can do a twin grip the standard use might be a single grip, in which case the weight distribution awkwardness would remain.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

But is the foregrip and mecha's strength actually enough to compensate for the weight or not. Palladium may be thinking that it is not, I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but that does seem to be what they are thinking that the weight distribution is what makes it awkward.

As for the weight, let's be honest: the Bioroid tops out other mecha in strength. We see it can crush the Hovertank's armor under its grip (grip strength absolutely corresponds to overall strength) as well as lift as 26.4 metric Hovertank off the ground (a vehicle weighing more than twice its own). The idea the weight of the drum is 'too heavy' is asinine. It doesn't match what we see from the show. On top of the fact the barrel, like I said, elevates/depresses.