When a giant eye and cosmic horror love each other very much

[Warshield73]

I've been reading a lot about the Splugorth recently and something came up that I am unsure of. In the Thundercloud Galaxy of the Three Galaxies there is a Splugorth named Desslyth Elder and apparently he has a son called Desslyth the Younger. My question is simple "What?" or maybe "How?'" I mean this seems weird. It does say in WB 2 that Splynncryth is "young for a Splugorth" at 72,000 years old. In addition to this the master vampire Hak-Talon, World Book 6: South America One pg. 40, says that believes it is possible to become a vampire intelligence with him believing it is how they reproduce.

Not counting the old ones we have dozens of Alien Intelligences in Palladium and most are single individuals like the Dweller in Phase World, Nxla in Psyscape, and several in Dragons & Gods and Pantheons of the Megaverse but on Vampire Intelligences, Splugorth, and Zllyphan (Merlin in England) the...I guess...races of alien intelligence. Has anyone given any thought to how this works? I have a lot of questions about this:

1 - Does it take two? Three? A village? Can they create an offspring all by themselves?
2 - Why would they do this. They all compete, and sometimes kill, each other so why create a rival that will just try to replace you?

Has anyone given this any thought or found something in one of the books that explain it? If so, love to hear your thoughts.

[Library Ogre]

First of all, my definition of a god and an alien intelligence are
A god has deific-level power as a result of the worship of them. Kill their worshipers and they're still very powerful, but they're mortal again.
An alien intelligence has deific-level power on their own.

Smart gods use some of that worshiper power to turn themselves into alien intelligences, but there's a balance... to do it really fast, you have to spend a lot of energy that might otherwise shore up your worshiper base (though miracles and magic). So it's a long game.

Now, for something like the Splugorth, I would say that they DO create their own "offspring", but do so to further their own ends. Having a secondary, pre-deific, intelligence can help in some ways, giving you an extra set of hands. It may even begin as a non-reproductive act, simply creating a splinter of yourself to act on your behalf... a splinter that gains its independence. If it gains enough independence, or gets enough resources quickly, it can break free.

[taalismn]

Alien Intelligence offspring also make for good expendable catspaws....they can be used as fronts and essentially cannon-fodder to draw attention away from the parent AI.

(Been reading Neal Asher, where the resident alien horrors...but by no means the worst alien horrors, that's the Jain...in the Polity-verse, the crab-like Prador, who are insanely tough, spawn offspring who are used as soldiers, labor, spare parts and food sources. Adult Prador routinely kill...and eat...their kids on the cusp of puberty because otherwise the offspring -will- kill their parent to assume dominance. It's considered the natural order of things.)

[Grazzik]

Re Desslyth, the reference of the Younger as the "son" in quotes is indicative of something odd. Then there is the reference to Desslyth's High Lords and bio-wizards possibly knowing the secrets of clone transferal - where an entity can jump from clone to clone. Perhaps the Younger is a clone which the Elder is planning to possess at some point, but in the meantime have the Younger put in the work. However, I like the idea of an avatar tapping into its own power to break free or suffer a severance of some kind from its creator, and thereby gain independence. Alternatively, it could be a bit of both, the Elder plans to wait and possess the Younger just before dying, after the Younger (an avatar given independence of some degree) has built up a PPE pool - maybe PPE doesn't pass as part of the transferal to the younger Splugorth, requiring the target to ripen before possession.

But are Splugorth and their AI ilk born? Well, AIs come from somewhere a long time ago...

Note: Intelligences are immortal and most are millions of years old, but the level of magical expertise/experience is equal to a 2D4+6 level practitioner of magic.

...and live for a long time. But Splugorth are different...

Average Life Span: 5D4 x 10,000 years.

Given their limited lifespan, why not have Splugorth have babies? Well, I'm not a fan of that idea because it makes them too relatable to mortals. Instead, there's an analogy in the books that Vampires are like a virus. So, perhaps the Splugorth are similar - but instead of a virus, perhaps they are the cancer of the Megaverse. As they extend themselves through avatars, the avatar is just a physical host that metastasizes out of control into a writhing mass, resulting in a new Splugorth.

[Warshield73]

First of all, my definition of a god and an alien intelligence are
A god has deific-level power as a result of the worship of them. Kill their worshipers and they're still very powerful, but they're mortal again.
An alien intelligence has deific-level power on their own.

I have always assumed godlings and maybe demi-gods were where gods started and as they gained power and especially worshippers they become gods. I agree with your overall power description but I also think that AI's are older, more primal. The more powerful they are the older and more unique they are.

Smart gods use some of that worshiper power to turn themselves into alien intelligences, but there's a balance... to do it really fast, you have to spend a lot of energy that might otherwise shore up your worshiper base (though miracles and magic). So it's a long game.

I don't think most gods want to be AI's, but some gods come from AI's like the Greek gods coming from Chronos. Some of the chief gods, Zeus and Odin, seem to be on par with mid level AI's anyway.

Now, for something like the Splugorth, I would say that they DO create their own "offspring", but do so to further their own ends. Having a secondary, pre-deific, intelligence can help in some ways, giving you an extra set of hands. It may even begin as a non-reproductive act, simply creating a splinter of yourself to act on your behalf... a splinter that gains its independence. If it gains enough independence, or gets enough resources quickly, it can break free.

I like this idea and it goes along with the master vampire Hak-Talon thinking there is a way for him to become a VI. A vamp is just a small part of the VI so it might make sense that this is how all three of the 'races' of AI reproduce. The problem is that a Spugorth essence has to poses a person or animal to stay in a dimension so not sure how it could go from possesing an ordinary human to tentacle monster.

Alien Intelligence offspring also make for good expendable catspaws....they can be used as fronts and essentially cannon-fodder to draw attention away from the parent AI.

I can see that being the purpose of a splintered essence that then gains independence and becomes a real tentacle monster. I guess I understand why they might do it, there just seems to be better ways of doing it without creating a rival.

(Been reading Neal Asher, where the resident alien horrors...but by no means the worst alien horrors, that's the Jain...in the Polity-verse, the crab-like Prador, who are insanely tough, spawn offspring who are used as soldiers, labor, spare parts and food sources. Adult Prador routinely kill...and eat...their kids on the cusp of puberty because otherwise the offspring -will- kill their parent to assume dominance. It's considered the natural order of things.)

Wow, that is dark. I will have to look it up.

Re Desslyth, the reference of the Younger as the "son" in quotes is indicative of something odd. Then there is the reference to Desslyth's High Lords and bio-wizards possibly knowing the secrets of clone transferal - where an entity can jump from clone to clone. Perhaps the Younger is a clone which the Elder is planning to possess at some point, but in the meantime have the Younger put in the work. However, I like the idea of an avatar tapping into its own power to break free or suffer a severance of some kind from its creator, and thereby gain independence. Alternatively, it could be a bit of both, the Elder plans to wait and possess the Younger just before dying, after the Younger (an avatar given independence of some degree) has built up a PPE pool - maybe PPE doesn't pass as part of the transferal to the younger Splugorth, requiring the target to ripen before possession.

This is something I could see an older spluorth doing. Creating offspring to try and extend its life. But, we know that some Splugorth go off and become independent beings with their own minions and kingdoms.

But are Splugorth and their AI ilk born? Well, AIs come from somewhere a long time ago...

Note: Intelligences are immortal and most are millions of years old, but the level of magical expertise/experience is equal to a 2D4+6 level practitioner of magic.

...and live for a long time. But Splugorth are different...

Average Life Span: 5D4 x 10,000 years.

Splugorth are the only AI, to my knowledge, that can die of old age. Most are immortal or effectively immortal. I think this is kind of interesting but it does make them more relatable to humans which is not necessarily bad. Maybe the Splugorth are what happens when a lesser creature becomes an AI.

As for where AI's come from I had always assumed we start with the Old Ones and they are like primal manifestations of magic and they are probably tens of millions if not billions of years old. Then comes the lesser old ones like Nxla and the Dweller who are at least millions of years old. I always figured that Splugorth, Vampire intelligences, Zllyphan and the like were created by the Old Ones as servants who were then out on their own when the old ones were put into slumber. For instance, I always thought vamps were servants of Netosa but that is just my head canon.

Given their limited lifespan, why not have Splugorth have babies? Well, I'm not a fan of that idea because it makes them too relatable to mortals. Instead, there's an analogy in the books that Vampires are like a virus. So, perhaps the Splugorth are similar - but instead of a virus, perhaps they are the cancer of the Megaverse. As they extend themselves through avatars, the avatar is just a physical host that metastasizes out of control into a writhing mass, resulting in a new Splugorth.

I like the idea of cancer. Maybe when a Splugorth is injured or driven away some of it's splintered essences can get left behind and slowly develop into a new splugorth. It might also be that it is not entirely under the Splugorth's control when they reproduce so there is an element of chaos to it.

All great ideas and insights, thanks everyone

[taalismn]

I now see an Alien Intelligence taunting its 'offspring'...
#YOU THINK YOURSELF A RIVAL, NAY, A -SUCCESSOR- TO -ME-?! YOU ARE NOTHING LESS THAN A FALLEN-OFF WART ON MY BUM! A CAST-OFF CARBUNCLE! A POPPED PUSTULE LEAKING CORRUPTION! A FLAKE OF SKIN WITH DELUSIONS OF SELFHOOD! A NAIL-CLIPPING WITH AN ECHO OF AN EGO!!!#

Yeah, this should be taken as a warning to mere mortals nearby to start putting some distance between the two AI and themselves.

[ShadowLogan]

Generically, given that AIs have access to defic powers (D&G) some of those powers might explain how they can "reproduce":
1. Manifestation Defic Power (pg95), using this power they might be considered to have "off spring", though here they would be limited to x2 if I'm following the power correctly and might require a bit of generosity in interpretation (or put another way, a variation of the power to get the desired result)
2. Create Minion Defic Power (pg92) might also work, off spring could be viewed as "minions" of their parents (for this to work might require some additional Defic Powers to be in play)
3. ALter Primal Manifestation Defic Power (pg90-1), if an essence fragment has access to defic powers (or subject to them) then it could alter a host into its primal form (possibly altering the fragment in the process?)

It might also be possible that if the AI Essence Fragment (or even the AI itself) is susceptible to mortal attraction (like Gods), they might engage in reproduce acts with Mortals that result in "off spring" that are warped into developing into a new AI. Sort of like When a God and Mortal mate the result is a Demi-God (IIRC), or when "compatible" races mate the result is always the higher order (TA and Human = TA, Amazon and Human = Amazon, Sea Titian and Human = Sea Titan, etc) though in this case the result is a new AI.

Now why an AI would do this I'm not sure and it might come down to the method that they actually use to reproduce, which might vary from AI to AI type (D&G suggests there are different grades of AI). If its Defic Power manifestation the "why" is likely going to be more different than if it was a "happy accident" only requiring one to explain why it didn't fix its "mistake".

I have always assumed godlings and maybe demi-gods were where gods started and as they gained power and especially worshippers they become gods. I agree with your overall power description but I also think that AI's are older, more primal. The more powerful they are the older and more unique they are.

I don't think this works that Godlings/Demi-Gods as the starting point, since they are the offspring of Gods so at some point you need a mechanism to create them w/o the gods being involved. More likely than not the gods started as mortal creatures who attained their status via worship (Rifts WB1o ?)

[Warshield73]

I think there are definitely different grades of AI. I mean clearly The Great Old Ones are at the top with AIs described as lesser old ones (Nxla and Lord of the Deep for certain and maybe the Dweller). I think then you probably have greater AIs like Chronos and a few others then average like SPlugorth and probably Zllyphan. The Vamps are probably lesser AIs.

It still seems kind of weird to me that the Splugorth are the only AI, and one of the few supernatural beings, that can die of old age. It would be interesting to know who is the youngest Splugorth. Is it Desslyth the Younger? Is he even younger than Splyncryth. I always wondered if the lifespan stat was actually meant to be average age but we now have a Splugorth dying of old age so guess not.

If they have limited life expectancy then it would make sense that they would reproduce.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't know if the VI qualifies as a lesser AI, but WB1:VK (original pg11, I don't know if the reference remained with revised or where it would be if it did) considers them, and most AI, "puny" Old Ones under the PF note at the end of their entry.

If the original VK WB statement mentioned above is to be believed, perhaps the Splugorth aren't related to the Old Ones, unlike the VI (and perhaps others).

Perhaps the Splugorth AI is not really a true SN being, but rather a Creature of Magic that masquerades as a SN entity? One of the defining characteristics is the CoM has a life span where a SN being does not.