Going Defensive

[Veknironth]

Well, there is a big benefit in combat to forgoing attempts to defend oneself in favor of an all out attack. It's the simultaneous attack which prevents the opponent from parrying or dodging an incoming attack if that person is attacking. That's dangerous for the person performing the simultaneous attack, but negating the opponent's ability to defend is a pretty good trade off. But, is there a similar mechanic for doing the opposite - for focusing solely on defending oneself without looking for an opporunity to attack? Should there be, if there isn't one? If there should, what would that be?

-Vek
"Perhaps an automatic dodge if you forgoe attacking for a full round? A bonus to parry or dodge?"

[Grazzik]

Not sure anything new is needed. In the basic encounter, if a PC has the initiative and chooses not to attack, it still uses up the action and should not be used later. The act of choosing not to attack is a choice and an act in and of itself.

So, if I have 3 attacks and face a 3 attack opponent who has initiative, the sequence would be:
Opp - attack
Me - parry
Me - choose to do nothing
Opp - attack
Me - parry
Me - pick my nose
Opp - attack
Me - parry
Me - scratch an itchy ear
Roll for initiative and repeat

Technically, the opposite of a simultaneous attack is a simultaneous dodge... otherwise known as the "imitating a cat that jumps at shadows" maneuver. Makes everyone look silly.

[kiralon]

You could try
If you go full offensive for a round, roll 2d20 and pick the best one for the strike roll, roll 2d20 and your opponent picks the dice for the defensive (parry/dodge/roll etc) dice roll and vice versa if you go full defensive, and you cannot change again until initiative.

[Grazzik]

You could try
If you go full offensive for a round, roll 2d20 and pick the best one for the strike roll, roll 2d20 and your opponent picks the dice for the defensive (parry/dodge/roll etc) dice roll and vice versa if you go full defensive, and you cannot change again until initiative.

Interesting idea. For full offensive, this might work well for melee weapons when you plant your feet and just start swinging, ignoring all distractions around you or blows taken - like a blood rage. Not so sure it would work with ranged weapons as focus is important for aim and distractions or blows may throw the aim off substantially. For ranged weapons, I'd go so far as to say the LOWER of the 2d20 is picked when full offensive.

[Veknironth]

Well, I think my point wasn't clearly made. Let me try again. If you decide not to defend against an incoming attack and use the simultaneous attack, then you have the benefit of your opponent not being able to parry or dodge it. So, there is a benefit for not defending.

Now what I'm wondering is what would be the game mechanic advantage to not attacking? Instead of being in melee combat while you're looking for an opening for an attack, all of your attention and movement is designed to simply not be hit. Think of a boxer way ahead on points just making sure he or she isn't knocked out before the match is over.

Things I have considered - If you say that you are going to not attack for the entire round then you would be granted the ability to dodge or parry all incoming attacks that you see. I know that H2H skill offers an automatic parry, but this tactic could be used by someone without a H2H skill. Or, it could be something as simple as a +4 to your rolls to to parry/dodge/roll (or some other number). The 5E advantage is an option as well, but I wouldn't apply it to offense since the simultaneous attack already negates the defender's active defense.

-Vek
"So, again, I am NOT asking about someone going on the offense. As the name of the post states, I'm talking about someone eschewing attacks in favor of purely defending."

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. There is no mechanical bonus for forgoing all attacks to focus on defense.

The epitome of this would be the Monk Scholar (Book 2: Old Ones), who cannot attack at all. They have an entire fighting style based in around the concept. However, the only real benefit they get is an Automatic Dodge, and (going from memory alone, as I'm in bed right now) maybe slightly higher Dodge bonuses as they level. This is a result of a focused fighting style though, and not a mechanical bonus for averting attacks and focusing on defense.

For a normal character, the "I don't attack so I can defend" is probably best represented by a Dodge. It uses an attack, and (from my recollection) often has a higher bonus than a simple parry (not counting W.P. bonuses).

Probably not the answers you were hoping for (but quite possibly the answers expected), but hope it helps all the same. Farewell and safe journeys.

[kiralon]

You could also try an auto roll with attack, you do parries as per normal but get to roll with blow for attacks that hit.

But if i added something that allowed full defensive id likely allow a full offensive as well to equalise things a bit
But for me saving all your actions for dodging is going full defense.

[Soldier of Od]

There are a couple of defensive Katas in Ninjas & Superspies that might be appropriate:
The one mind kata allows you to double the roll for one dodge or parry in that melee round (when used defensively); you can only dodge or parry for the rest of the round, but as normal.
The five principles kata gives you automatic parries and dodges (with a bonus of +2) against all incoming attacks, so is good for defending against multiple opponents beyond the number normally allowed.

Some other ideas:
As this is an alternative to simultaneous attack, perhaps a simultaneous roll with impact? So, you forgo your chance to parry or dodge, allowing the blow to hit, but rolling with it. The advantage being that it is an automatic success, like a simultaneous strike would be, so you are certain of halving the damage. Only really useful in the situation where you are thinking "this guy's strike bonuses are so high, I don't have a chance of parrying, but if I do a simultaneous roll, I know I'll only take half damage".

Or how about a "power dodge" like a power strike? You use an attack to "wind up" the power dodge, like you would a power punch, etc., and dodge on the next attack. If you successfully dodge the blow, great, no change; but if you fail to dodge, you automatically halve the damage as if you had rolled with it (like a power punch doubles the damage, a power dodge halves it - if it hits).

Or an "aimed dodge", like an aimed strike? You use an attack to prepare the dodge, like you would an aimed shot, and in return you get a +2 on your dodge (or parry).

I would use different terms - I just stuck with "power" and "aimed" here to demonstrate the concepts.

[ShadowLogan]

Greetings and Salutations. There is no mechanical bonus for forgoing all attacks to focus on defense.

Not exactly true from a Historical Megaversal POV.

If we look at some of the older lines with a more modern/futuristic feel to them like HU, N&SS, 1E RT, Macross 2, ATB/TMNT as opposed to the fantasy genre of PF, the vehicle rules included various piloting maneuvers that could be executed by the vehicle's operator. Of note here for both land and aerospace vehicles was the maneuver "Evasive Action", though the rules for each are slightly different, but the aerospace one reads (from RT2: Sentinels pg42, but should be largely C&P in other books IINM) "[...] All attacks are lost while engaged in evasive action, unless something suddenly flies directly in front of the vehicle, and even then the pilot is -4 strike. Note: This tactic will lose any attacker(s), meaning they cannot attack unless the attacker(s) engage in a "dog tail" chase." (it then goes on about skill penalties and impact of failed roll.

Depending on what one might consider a mechanical bonus, taking evasive action in an aerospace vehicle (successfully) then results in being unable to be attacked normally could be considered a mechanical bonus (only one maneuver can counter it).

Now that is for vehicular use one would find in a modern/futuristic setting with vehicles with no real parallel to personal movement in RAW (current or in the past). Still it shows what could be considers a mechanical bonus depending on your POV. How to apply it for personal movement like in PF I haven't a clue (Dance off?) if that is what the OP is looking for but there is precedent in how it could worked.

For a normal character, the "I don't attack so I can defend" is probably best represented by a Dodge. It uses an attack, and (from my recollection) often has a higher bonus than a simple parry (not counting W.P. bonuses).

The general HTH skills (Basic, Expert, Martial Arts, Assassin) all have the parry and dodge bonuses advance at the same time and for the same value.

Factoring in Physical Skills and/or OCC/RCC bonuses will be a bigger factor than the HTH skill most likely and create wider range of results. Though here it may come down to the level in the WP versus how many physical skills a character took took.

Auto-Dodge bonuses generally run lower than the Dodge bonus (they don't stack, except for the PP bonus in RAW) as there aren't to many ways to raise the AD unlike a regular Dodge or Parry.

[kiralon]

Auto-Dodge bonuses generally run lower than the Dodge bonus (they don't stack, except for the PP bonus in RAW) as there aren't to many ways to raise the AD unlike a regular Dodge or Parry.

The automatic dodge is just a normal dodge that doesn't cost actions, just like automatic parry is just a parry that doesn't cost actions.
"Instead of parrying, the character gets to automatically try to dodge each attack he sees coming without using up a melee action"

Its the useless backflip dodge that doesn't get the extra bonuses but the blurb about backflip dodge does muddy the waters.

[ShadowLogan]

Auto-Dodge bonuses generally run lower than the Dodge bonus (they don't stack, except for the PP bonus in RAW) as there aren't to many ways to raise the AD unlike a regular Dodge or Parry.

The automatic dodge is just a normal dodge that doesn't cost actions, just like automatic parry is just a parry that doesn't cost actions.
"Instead of parrying, the character gets to automatically try to dodge each attack he sees coming without using up a melee action"

Its the useless backflip dodge that doesn't get the extra bonuses but the blurb about backflip dodge does muddy the waters.

While Auto-Dodge works like a normal Dodge, just it doesn't consume an action, the APPLICABLE BONUSES are tracked separately, the same is the case for the Backflip Dodge (and other "special" dodge types)..

Off hand I don't know if/where Auto-Dodge gets defined for PF, but Megaversally under RUE (pg344) it is defined as "[...] An automatic dodge not use up any attacks to perform. Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge'"). Unless it specifically says a character has an Automatic Dodge, he does NOT." (emphasis in original text)

So you could have a +7 to (normal) Dodge but only a +2 to Auto Dodge or Backflip Dodge that is NOT combined with the normal dodge (for a +9). That is how other "special" dodges are supposed to work in terms of mechanical bonuses.

[kiralon]

Off hand I don't know if/where Auto-Dodge gets defined for PF, but Megaversally under RUE (pg344) it is defined as "[...] An automatic dodge not use up any attacks to perform. Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say 'automatic dodge'"). Unless it specifically says a character has an Automatic Dodge, he does NOT." (emphasis in original text)

There are differences between the games, and i do not believe auto parry or auto dodge should have all the same bonuses but to me it seems though do, even if other megaversal games may or may not.
The blurb i put in is palladium fantasies input on auto-dodge unfortunately, and as it says it works like normal dodge, working like normal dodge means it gets the same bonuses to me. It would have to have something like what the backflip dodge has saying it doesn't, and if there were bonuses to auto dodge like there are to backflip dodge, i would then maybe think about it, but there arent, so it seems pf is supposed to be different, or more likely, hasnt been updated.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not sure this is one of those cases where one can use the "differences between the games" approach. While I quoted RUE, I know its the same for several other lines (HU2E, MB-era Rifts, 2E RT) where it works identically. There is also AD's "older" fraternal "twin" Leap Dodge from 1E RT (want to also put it in Macross2 and even appears in Rifts Japan WB oddly enough for one of the specialized MA styles).

I also think there is a difference between the Parry and Dodge aspects in this case. Automatic Parry works like a straight forward upgrade to the normal Parry, AFAIK you can't elect to do a normal Parry if you can do an Automatic Parry (and why would you? using an attack at this point doesn't confer any counter benifits like a higher bonus). Which is different than normal Dodge and various Variant Dodges that exist (Megaversally like Auto, Backflip, Leap, etc), and even though AD isn't part of PF2E main book there is the blurb on pg44 form the Combat Bonuses definition that states "... each combat maneuver is considered a separate category, so only various bonus to strike are added to the strike roll, bonuses to parry added to the parry roll and so forth."

Based on the pg44 definition, one has to ask if Auto-Dodge is considered a separate category for bonuses. If it is, then you don't add regular dodge bonuses when you AD, which is the universal Megaversal Standard everywhere else. If it is not, then you have to show the specific citation that it isn't following the UMS. The wording you use IMHO doesn't show it differs from the UMS, as that wording is also used there (I can't confirm because I don't have the book in question for PF) and even then they still consider Dodge and Auto-Dodge to have separate bonus pools.

I'd look at this way, by keeping AD and ND separate bonuses you have players who have to now choose do they want to spend an attack to dodge with a better bonus or not use an action to dodge with a lower bonus.

[kiralon]

The books are different enough that i might (and do) house rule other books rules in, i do not play the mdc games often, so i use the rules the way they are presented in the fantasy rule book
In a gaming perspective having the difference in dodges is an idea i like, but the fact that it says it works like normal dodge except doesn't use an action, and also doesn't give any bonuses to auto dodge, so it is presented exactly like auto parry. Auto parry says the same thing and also doesn't present extra bonuses to parry. They dont even call it auto dodge in the book.

Just curious, do the other books give a bonus to auto dodge? I do not believe palladium would release a combat ability that got no bonuses by the time the player got to level 15. Even back flip dodge gets +2 or more.

[Library Ogre]

An option I played with, years ago, was to remove dodges and parries, replacing them with "defense." Defenses could be regular or automatic (at a -3), and full or partial (at a +3). So, a automatic partial defense would be done at +3 -3 (plus other bonuses). It would cost no actions and reduce damage by half. An automatic full defense would be at -3, and avoid all damage... whether that was getting out of the way, parrying the blade, or something similar would depend on narration. A sufficiently big miss (say, 10 points or so) would remove all the cost... the shot went so wide that avoiding it didn't take an action, and you avoided all damage, anyway.

(This is not dissimilar from what Hackmaster wound up doing; Great minds run in similar channels, I suppose).

[ShadowLogan]

Getting back on topic, Megaversally are there any examples of "defensive combat styles" that might answer the OPs original question.

Just curious, do the other books give a bonus to auto dodge? I do not believe palladium would release a combat ability that got no bonuses by the time the player got to level 15. Even back flip dodge gets +2 or more.

Yes they do give a bonus to the variant dodges. The only case(s) that wouldn't get a bonus IINM is when it is gained in HTH: Commando (though at later levels a bonus is granted) when it was introduced in WB11 (RUE altered it).

EDIT:
there are at least x45 instances of Auto-Dodge bonuses being granted at whatever level Megaverasally based on my incomplete PB library (and I know I didn't get anywhere near all of them even here) after a quick review

also HTH: Aikido from Japan starts with a flat AD before giving a bonus just like Commando, that is an RMB-era book and I don't know if it was ever updated in a later printing (for RUE) or in the GM book.

In a gaming perspective having the difference in dodges is an idea i like, but the fact that it says it works like normal dodge except doesn't use an action, and also doesn't give any bonuses to auto dodge, so it is presented exactly like auto parry. Auto parry says the same thing and also doesn't present extra bonuses to parry. They dont even call it auto dodge in the book.

Like I said it uses the same wording in the other books, it just expands the definition to be more clear IMHO. As I don't have the book in question I can't directly comment but I gather here is it was for a class special ability which might really be an exception to how AD would work in PF as opposed to a general/generic rule (like in Rifts and other lines). One can sort of see that with Rifts Cyber-Knight Psi-Swords (RMB, RUE doesn't matter really), while they share the same name as the psi-power they are very different in the setting's general/generic write-up for the power (ZERO ISP cost, ZERO "casting time", different damage progression even if we ignore the MD/SD setting differences, available at Level 1)

[kiralon]

It is a class special ability, only monk scholars get it (They get their own hth style called evasive combat), and if it got bonuses as it levelled up i would think that it could be a like rue, but as scholar monks arent allowed to strike, it would make less sense to me as it would be pretty much useless at high levels with auto parry easily being better.

I think moves from N&S are a better fit for defensive fighting.
Or you could go full defensive fighting give a bonus to AR for that round so armour is more effective, you can still auto parry as normal but maybe a bonus of half your man at arms level to your AR rounded up.

[ShadowLogan]

Megaversally here are some examples of "defensive combat styles" that might answer the OPs original question in what that might look like after a quick/targeted review. And I wouldn't be surprised if I missed anything.

Heroes Unlimited (2E)
-Physical Training Power Category/Class has a Defensive & Fast Hand to Hand Combat style (pg188-9), it's not a purely defensive thing though.

Rifts World Book 30 (D-Bees of North America) has two races which could be considered to have defensive combat orientations:
-Fennodi (pg84-5), originally from WB14: New West) has a "Ghostwalk" psi-power ability (become a material plane astral traveler basically) and a defensive orientated Hand to Hand: Nodox (similar to Aikido below)
-Flooper's (pg89, orginally from WB1: Vampire Kindoms) has their Flopping Ability to avoid combat. Basically they "pop" in and out for short durations, sort of like timehole, to avoid combat

Rifts World Book 8: Japan
-The Tengu Leap Dodge (pg69-70), a variant of Auto Dodge that can frustrate opponents (leading to taunting)
-The Tengu Timed Leap (pg70), time the maneuver so that the opponent will strike something else
-Hand to Hand: Akikido (pg193), the HTH style is specifically designed around a purely defensive mindset
-a few of the Martial Art Powers like on pg196-7 might also give an idea

Rifts Dimension Book 3: Phaseworld Source Book
-Art of Defense Oni Technique (pg22), basically a Psi-Power that gives bonus to defensive actions while penalties to strike and skills due to mental focus