Circle locations

[Veknironth]

Well, I looked through the books and tried to use the search tool here, but to no avail. So I'll ask the intelligencia. What should be the limits as to where a circle can be drawn? Can it be drawn on a wall, assuming the ingredients can be made to adhere? Can you have a circle on a ship? The Demon Black Ships certainly do, but are only summoning circles allowed? What about things like teleportation or summon elemental forces? The elemental forces one would be particularly devastating in ship to ship combat. Can you create a circle in advance on something like a rug or carpet, roll it out, and then activate it. That would save a lot of time. If you had a large scroll or roll of paper with a silver rune on it to make invulnerable could that paper also have a circle pre-drawn on it? Would the two magics negate each other?

-Vek
"What about paper walls a la feudal Japan, but with silver runes on them?"

[ShadowLogan]

Where can you put a circle?

Nothing (AFAIK) forbids it from being on the wall or ceiling provided you can find a way to "stand" in the circle (which IINM is a requirement) which means for most races I'd probably say no you can't unless the character can overcome that obstacle (via magic, psionic, equipment, natural ability like insect/arachnids, or GM rules "stand" in the circle to be w/n a "bubble" or just place a hand on it). Though that might also be how "trap" circles might work.

As you said there is precedent for putting it on a ship. I can't see why you couldn't put non-Summnoning Circles on a ship, even Teleportation. Though T-porting likely is out-going only, though that could also depend on how the "coordinates" work (ie is just "City Hall of Memphis" enough or do you need to know designate which Memphis is desired the one in USA-Tenn. or Egypt to avoid going to the wrong one?)

I don't think anything blocks circles (in general) from being pre-made per say on Rugs or blankets (even scrolls), though specifics for a given circle might prevent it (at a glance binding agents are mentioned in a few entries so it looks like it "depends" if you can see a binding agent working for the circle material). Though I'm not sure how much time you might save with the ritual (which may or may not include time to make the circle/symbols).

Combining it with Rune Magic is a possibility, there is text in the Diabolists OCC (Living Circles that uses Runes in the 2E Main book pg118), so the two magics do seem to be compatible (sharing symbology it makes sense they should be). Now it is true the Living Circles are a historical rumor as none have beeN found (pg118), but lower power Circles with Runes seems like it would be known (no one knows how to get the higher power living rune circle versions).

[GoliathReturns]

I don't think anything blocks circles (in general) from being pre-made per say on Rugs or blankets (even scrolls),

IIRC, the circle magic section of core book specifically says can't be set up on a circle to be rolled out.

Side note, I've used the backs of wagons and carts many times, as both player and GM. And by extension, I say ships in general are acceptable.

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

I don't think anything blocks circles (in general) from being pre-made per say on Rugs or blankets (even scrolls),

IIRC, the circle magic section of core book specifically says can't be set up on a circle to be rolled out.

Side note, I've used the backs of wagons and carts many times, as both player and GM. And by extension, I say ships in general are acceptable.

--
GS

Citation please. I reviewed Circle Magic itself and couldn't find such a statement, maybe I missed it. Nor is one in the Alchemist section (did find another interesting tidbit*).

I don't dispute that rolling up the rug/blanket would deactivate an active Circle (it's no longer a circle after all technically). Not that I think it would be active anyway due to the possible requirements for other materials (ex. Protection from Faerie Folk requires a horseshoe with red-ribbon placed in the center, can't really do that when it gets rolled up, and while the magic keeps things "fresh" it doesn't prevent it from being disturbed).

An interesting concept that strikes me thinking about this (w/o review) though is they could inscribe a circle on the inside of a shield (with compartments for component placement) to have a truly portable Circle (if you can set it up on a moving ship then...). Circles don't have a defined size, which makes it doable, and if the shield is big enough a power matrix Circle Shield. Likely not practical for Summoning Circles and some Power Circles due to the blood sacrifice. One could allow a Summoner to carry 1-3 shields depending on size and weight, though as we are talking customized shield likely only 1 should be carried (could have more in "storage" elsewhere).

*

Spoiler:

2E pg247 under "Selling Circles" section it starts off "Alchemists may teach a Summoner and occasionally, a Diabilist how to create circles"-emphasis mine. This seems to contradict "Use Magic Circles" ability of the Diabolist on pg119.

Granted this could also be taken as the Diabolist setting out to become a Summoner and/or future Alchemist.

[Veknironth]

Well my idea with the carpet is that you have a non-circle and then when it's unfurled and lying flat, then you have a circle. You could add whatever is needed and then activate it. To me, a sailing ship is plenty big enough to house a functional teleportarion circle. Assuming you had the fairy wings required, you could do a lot of stuff with such a circle. It's also a fair work around for the distance limitation.

The shield raises another question. How flat of a surface does the circle need? A circle is a two dimensional shape so you'd assume that the surface on which it is drawn is level. But most shields have curves and/or angles. Captain America's shield is circular but I tmdknt think a circle on it would work. However, there are concetric circles painted in it, so maybe it would work.

For the carpet example, how much of a fold in the carpet would negate the circle? If you had it lying flat on the floor, and dragged it overtop of something would it cease to work? Can a circle on an object work wherever that object is? Does it have to be immobile?

-Vek
"I had never noticed how fun circles are."

[Veknironth]

Well, I thought of some other questions about the Teleportation Circle. A circle is a two dimensional shape but things inside the circle are three dimensional. So, really it's a Teleportation cylinder. How far up does the cylinder go? What happens if something inside that circle is taller than the maximum height of the circle, assuming that there is one. What happens if you teleport from a circle of a certain size into a smaller circle? Are things stacked on top of each other? Does the original circle end up being limited by the size of the arrival circle? What would happen if there is something IN the arrival circle?

-Vek
"Round and round we go."

[GoliathReturns]

I don't think anything blocks circles (in general) from being pre-made per say on Rugs or blankets (even scrolls),

IIRC, the circle magic section of core book specifically says can't be set up on a circle to be rolled out.

Side note, I've used the backs of wagons and carts many times, as both player and GM. And by extension, I say ships in general are acceptable.

--
GS

Citation please. I reviewed Circle Magic itself and couldn't find such a statement, maybe I missed it. Nor is one in the Alchemist section (did find another interesting tidbit*).

Reviewing everything, was a wards note where "they cannot be painted on a fabric to be enrolled at a moment of crisis". I had actually thought that it was a wards AND circles thing. Been a hot minute since I dug through both of those, and memory played a trick.

However, whatever you put it on needs to be large enough for the summoner to be able to stand inside their portion and use it (whole circle for power and prot, 1/4 for summoning). So, that means a gnome could, theoretically, have a fairly small circle, it hinders someone like a giant, or even a troll (components can get expensive, after all).

But, even for a gnome, you're talking a diameter of about 1-1.5 feet (30-45 cm), much larger for summoning circles, which means a human sized buckler shield, at a minimum, which is going to effectively be a large shield for the gnome. A human you're talking about 2 feet (61 cm) for power and protection, so you're generally talking a tower shield.

So, I'd say the "shield" idea is right out. However, the back of a wagon or a cart seems much more practical.

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

Reviewing everything, was a wards note where "they cannot be painted on a fabric to be enrolled at a moment of crisis". I had actually thought that it was a wards AND circles thing. Been a hot minute since I dug through both of those, and memory played a trick.

No problem. I remember that for Diabolism, but couldn't find anything like that for a Circle.

So, I'd say the "shield" idea is right out. However, the back of a wagon or a cart seems much more practical.

I disagree that it is out. Starting to dig into this a bit more.

Average (modern) Adult Shoulder width is 16"/41cm for males, 14"/36cm for females in the United States. Other countries might be smaller or larger, and then time period might also be a factor to.

Round Shields come in a variety of sizes from 18"/45cm up to 48"/120cm, though manageable size and most common at the site I ended up at from a Google Search put it at 30"/75cm-36"/90cm. This is for a human-size creature obviously.

Some Circle Magic requires standing in specific quadrants of the circle drawn, which means each quadrant would have the radius (1/2 diameter) of the circle to work with which means with the right size shield it certainly is doable.

Obviously you can't do it with any old shield (and bigger is better here), and you have to consider the build of the summoner in question with females having a slight edge as they are smaller than their male counter parts. But by all indications it appears it could be done in a general sense, maybe not every circle but some appear to be usable..

Not sure I agree that a wagon/cart is more practical per say, a shield can go practically anywhere the Summoner can but a wagon/cart not so much.

For the carpet example, how much of a fold in the carpet would negate the circle? If you had it lying flat on the floor, and dragged it overtop of something would it cease to work? Can a circle on an object work wherever that object is? Does it have to be immobile?

Technically speaking the circle doesn't have to be perfect, but it can't be an ellipse per the text. I'd also point out that Circles are a (special) type of ellipse technically, so the text can be seen as contradictory (granted it is clear IMHO what they mean). But yes you could have a few slight deviations in the "circle" and be fine IMHO.

It certainly has to be flat on the floor IMHO, and dragging it alone might be enough to deactivate the circle if the "circle" is deformed enough. But does the floor have to be level? What about a floor that is sloped like a ramp (for whatever reason, natural or artificial)? I think because the text allows for a non-perfect circle to be drawn, the floor doesn't have to be level and can be "sloped".

Well, I thought of some other questions about the Teleportation Circle. A circle is a two dimensional shape but things inside the circle are three dimensional. So, really it's a Teleportation cylinder. How far up does the cylinder go? What happens if something inside that circle is taller than the maximum height of the circle, assuming that there is one. What happens if you teleport from a circle of a certain size into a smaller circle? Are things stacked on top of each other? Does the original circle end up being limited by the size of the arrival circle? What would happen if there is something IN the arrival circle?

I'll point out it might not be a cylinder, but also potentially a dome (and are we dealing with the circle diameter as the dome's diameter or is it sectioned off from a larger dome?).

As for the height of the Teleport Circle effect, I'd assume the height is equal to the radius or diameter of the circle, maybe with a bit of wiggle room (no sorry your 1cm to tall to use this circle, though if we get into multiple meters I'd say no).

Teleporting OUT of the circle if to large, I'd say you just don't teleport.

Teleporting INTO a circle, the destination circle itself shouldn't care about the size of the incoming subject (you might get redirected IF the "chamber" is to small or the magic doesn't work). If occupied an incoming subject probably lands on top of them.

And I found a reference to Wards working with Circle Magic, Dimensional Rift-Power Circle specifically mentions "A permanence ward will keep that one portal open for all eternity." (pg150-PF2E), so one can modify Circles via Wards and at minimum give them permanence. Found that while comparing it to Teleport Power Circle to see how they worked, T-port is more like poof but DR involves an actual portal forming (wanted to make sure this wasn't case of misremembering Teleport working here like Star Trek as opposed to the Mystic Portal Spell teleport option)

[GoliathReturns]

In regards to the shields portion-

Shoulder width is a very strict, and not entirely accurate, usage.

Shoulder width would be for something akin to a servicemember standing at attention. Not conducive to long term.

People generally stand with feet a little more than shoulder width apart. Usually about 2-4 inches per side.

And that also ignores any sort of movement the summoner may wish to make.

While it may TECHNICALLY be possible, it is outside of terms or practically possible, at least not for more than a couple of minutes. Standing with your legs that close together, for an extended time, you also run into the "oh, you locked your knees.. congratulations for passing out"

Most shields also are not flat. While some are, by the 4th century BCE, the curve became pretty standard (thank the romans). Which means not only do you not have a flat surface for the circle, the shield itself wouldn't sit flat on the ground. Even flat shields, before this, typically had a piece of metal in the middle on the front, creating a bulging point that would prohibit the shield laying flat.

You would also have the issue of metal and leather projections and attachments used for holding the shield, which could cause problems for the circle, causing it to not even work.

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

I don't disagree there could be issues with using shoulder width as a metric here, but in terms of a quick assessment it can be a useful.

Male Shoulder Width is 16", and Female is 14" in the US. Now this is a modern American, as this is a fantasy setting with a medevil influence they are likely smaller.

If we do the math...

A Circle 48" in diameter can hold 4x smaller circles each 19.6" in diameter in individual quadrants (with some room to spare in the triangular pie slice)

A Circle 42" in diameter can hold 4x smaller circles each 16" in diameter in individual quadrants (with room to spare in the triangular pie slice)

A Circle 36" in diameter can hold 4x smaller circles each 14" in diameter in individual quadrants (with room to spare in the triangular pie slice).

This would indicate that a large shield 48" in diameter should work without much issue for a human size. If the Summoner has access to size manipulation (ability, enchanted clothing/armor/jewelry, potion, scroll or talisman) would also help make it more do able, though limited in when it could be pulled off. What Circle type is being put on the shield is also important, some types are going to require using a large shield where others might be able to get by with a more moderate/medium size.

I am not saying all Circles should be available to be put on a shield due to requirements like the a blood sacrifice (logistics of it), and some of them might not be practical for a "spur of the moment" thing either outside of protection.

Now the shield may not be flat, but I don't see that as an issue. You can make a circle/ring in bowls and other items that aren't "flat", so I don't see it as being an issue if the circle is drawn on a "dome"-like surface as you still end up with a circle. Now a Kite or Rectangular Shield, yeah it might be an issue, but for a circular shield you'd have to have drawn the circle really bad to not work IMHO? I do agree shield greebles like straps/holds/spikes/etc could be an issue, but one that will ultimately come down to individual GMs (personally I'm not sure those would be an issue, if they where all you'd have to do is toss in a simple pebble into a circle or even just simple dust and it would shut down, which doesn't seem to be the case given deactivation descriptions). Now laying it down, yeah that could be a hurdle to overcome, but given we're likely talking about a custom shield it could be made flat or have ornamentation to achieve that effect (put spikes on the front for shield mode, but they act as "legs" to use the circle)

[GoliathReturns]

but given we're likely talking about a custom shield it could be made flat or have ornamentation to achieve that effect (put spikes on the front for shield mode, but they act as "legs" to use the circle)

This is where we're much more in line about it working.. custom made items.

If we're talking items made specifically to facilitate this, then absolutely, much easier and possible.

My previous statements were more for "off the shelf" items.

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

For a general discussion on using a (generic) Shield for a (generic) Circle I do agree that it has to be a customized shield. There is no way around it since we have to consider various variables, and some of them involve components that aren't the circle itself but still required (and not the blood sacrifice source, which is another matter), the magic of the Circle can keep it fresh (per text), but it can't apparently keep it w/n the circle (as that is one way to deactivate it) which is why I said it would have to have compartments to hold said things in place (and compartments aren't standard on shields so...)

That doesn't mean there aren't combinations of specific shield/circle types that could work off the shelf IMHO, but we aren't looking at any specific combination to see if it would work here, we are looking at it from a general POV which we agree requires customization.

[GoliathReturns]

Since discussing custom made items, it would be entirely possible to get parts of it "built in".

Say, for example.. using a component to make the circle be part of the actual shield. The physical circle always existing, that way, and then you just need to adjust the rest of it.

And if you plan on having the same circle, over and over, you could have several of the components permanently in place. This would make setting up the circle a lot faster each time it's needed.

I might dig through some stuff tonight, and see what sorts of circles would be easiest for something like that.

--
GS

[Veknironth]

Well, here's yet another teleportatoin circle question. The circle says that you can link two circles and use them with 0% chance of error. You inscribe the location of the other circle with a quarter sized circle attached to the original. How do you write the location in? There aren't addresses, longitude/latitiude, or GPS coordinates. How exact a location does it have to be? IS the city good enough, or the name of a ship? Does it need to be something like "The basement of the red, two story warehouse on Baker Street in the Park Side of Old Timiro in the Timiro Kingdom?"

-Vek
"So vague."

[kiralon]

I use patterns that the circle is on, but it would be the will of the summoner, he concentrates and writes whatever he links to the destination.

[GoliathReturns]

Well, here's yet another teleportatoin circle question. The circle says that you can link two circles and use them with 0% chance of error. You inscribe the location of the other circle with a quarter sized circle attached to the original. How do you write the location in? There aren't addresses, longitude/latitiude, or GPS coordinates. How exact a location does it have to be? IS the city good enough, or the name of a ship? Does it need to be something like "The basement of the red, two story warehouse on Baker Street in the Park Side of Old Timiro in the Timiro Kingdom?"

-Vek
"So vague."

I'd say it's a summoners own little shorthand. How he labels things, how he identifies that individual circle

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

Well, here's yet another teleportatoin circle question. The circle says that you can link two circles and use them with 0% chance of error. You inscribe the location of the other circle with a quarter sized circle attached to the original. How do you write the location in? There aren't addresses, longitude/latitiude, or GPS coordinates. How exact a location does it have to be? IS the city good enough, or the name of a ship? Does it need to be something like "The basement of the red, two story warehouse on Baker Street in the Park Side of Old Timiro in the Timiro Kingdom?"

-Vek
"So vague."

Astronomy & Navigation skill. This IMHO implies that they have some form of Longitude and Latitude, it also mentions navigational equipment (which likely means some form of spyglass, sextant (or some form of it, it can do both Ls), compass, astrolabe (find latitude), etc. Historically the Ls have been determined by astronomical observation (longitude being the harder one to determine, especially at sea).

That would be my informed opinion on the matter. Where it would break down of course is when you teleport between circles and the destination is on a moving ship (or "wagon"), that I don't have an easy explanation. But Teleporting to a stationary location, IMHO that's easy enough to work out with the above.