What if Tolkeen had packed their bags and ran?

[darthauthor]

Working on a story line.

What if Tolkeen had packed their bags and ran when the CS Army invaded.

I had imagined 5 or 10 percent would stay behind (ordinary humans).

I had imagined they would do a burned Earth number on anything they could not take with them but could be used against them or just did not want the CS to have.

I'd imagined the CS would be smug over their easy victory.

Best guess, they would move their people in.
Make it a forward operating base.
Search it for traps.
Kill the Tolkeen sympathizers or put them in a work camp.

Destroy momuments and magic.

When they are done, focus on Free Quebec.

With no help from Tolkeen, I'd imagine the CS war of Free Quebec would go on.
I'd imagine, half the CS troops against Tolkeen would be re-deployed against Free Quebec.
That or the Xiticix or New Lazlo.

The Cyber-Knights would stay unified.

Lord Duncan would smile and laugh for a couple of days then go, my greatest enemy just scored a huge victory. Use it to rally the peoples of the Federation of Magic.
Be a fear monger of CS invasion.

I'd imagine some Tolkeenites would rally towards him.

Lazlo would think they made the wise move but then what is their next move?
They would be flooded with people.

Necromancers would not have gotten the boost to their reputation.

The City of sleeping Dragons, Freehold, would not budge so easily.
Probably laugh at Tolkeen but would act sooner and take things more seriously if Tolkeen left.
No one else would do their fighting for them.
They would have no choice but to look to themselves.
They are dragons with enormus egos and power to boot.
When they get pushed out, it will be double the shame.

I'd imagine the CS would be harassed by Tolkeen insurgants.

I'd imagine the CS would be in a better position when the Minion War kicks off.

What do you think?

[darthauthor]

Question:

IF Tolkeen had walked away, "Who would the CS have attacked next: The Xiticix or someone else?"

[Warshield73]

Without the actions of Tolkeen the civil war between FQ and the CS would likely have continued so you would have to see how that shakes out.

As for the next target of the CS they seem to hate the more active magic communities the most rather than just animalistic kind of threat that is the Xiticix. Given that Lazlo is engaged in a war against the Xiticix I could see the CS try to go after the Federation of Magic while those two powers are busy.

[darthauthor]

That is probably the most intelligent answer.

I'd mention something about the closest target but your assessment of Lazlo engaging the Xiticix is accurate.
The CS would rather they fought and died.
If the CS came round it might confuse the Dead Boys to fight along side the Lazlo wizards and baby dragons.

Better to finish the job on the Federation, once and for all.

[Slider65]

I'm not sure how a population the size of Tolkeen would just "up and walk away" too begin with. And where would they go? Going east just makes them easy targets for the CS to defeat in detail, and I seriously doubt that Lazlo has the capacity to take on such a large surge in population to begin with.

Going west is a safer bet, but that is still a very large group of people crossing hundreds of miles of territory to get to...? The Colorado Baronies? Not sure if they could handle the influx to be honest.

Southwest is just a Bad Idea as it possible leaves them in a vice between Lone Star and the rest of the CS. Not to mention all the other friendly folks that call that corner of the U.S. their home. Pecos Raider's would see them as an invading force, and a potluck meal at the same time.

But here is a fun idea, why stay on Rifts Earth to begin with? There are certainly a large number of shifter's among Tolkeen's forces. So, lets say they all walk through a Rift.

Center in the 3 Galaxy's might be an idea, if that large a group just doesn't get stopped at the gates and sent back home just as fast as they got there. And the Gate closing behind them.

There's the possibility of a place like the UWW having both the size and resources needed to take them in, but some of the nastier elements of Tolkeen's forces, and several of the Warlords, I don't imagine being very welcome to say the least, and could certainly get up to all kinds of mischief. But at the least the UWW would be a very welcome place for most of Tolkeen's citizens.

For just all kinds of fun, Wormwood would be an... interesting destination to say the least. Although I cannot recall if the Living Planet would have the capability to keep such a large population fed. And as long as they are willing to join in the fight against the Unholy, I imagine they would be welcomed with open arms. And could quite possibly tip the balance in favor of the forces of goodness and light (cough, cough) But I could also see some of the Warlords, and those forces loyal to them, deciding that the Unholy seems like a nice fellow and there is certainly room for advancement on his side as well.

Just a few ideas if anyone finds them interesting.

[Grazzik]

Ran a mini campaign where the Tolkeenite powers that be locked down the ley lines via the pyramids to prevent citizens from just Rifting away, abandoning their duty to defend against the CS forces arrayed against them. So, the local BM boss recruited an Astral Lord psychic to take select clients (those that couldn't dimensionally self teleport) to an astral domain to bypass the magical lockout, in the expectation that a portal would be opened up somewhere safe far away from Tolkeen. It was a game of cat and mouse with the authorities who learned of this traitorous operation, while also an ethical dilemma for the PCs when the BM boss ordered all the air to be evacuated from the domain - killing the refugees.

[taalismn]

I'm not sure how a population the size of Tolkeen would just "up and walk away" too begin with. And where would they go? Going east just makes them easy targets for the CS to defeat in detail, and I seriously doubt that Lazlo has the capacity to take on such a large surge in population to begin with. .

I'm figuring hypothetic 'big arse Rift event'...but that could take EVERYBODY. Sort of a 'Cities in Flight' scenario, only it's extradimensional transposition.

Let's face it, it would be funny as hell if the CS army came over the horizon ready to rumble and found a big hole in the ground with a sign on the edge saying something along the lines of 'Moved to Happiness' or some other 'left without a forwarding address' message.

Cue a few Deadboys spiking their helmets into the ground, kicking and cursing, and more than a few others breathing a sigh of relief.

And CS high command nervously wondering where the hell those Tolkeenites could have gone.


Uglier scenario would swap Tolkeen for an alternate techno- fortress city even MORE prepared to rumble with these black-armored goons who are onsite when the former were apparently snatched from their surroundings.

[Grazzik]

Makes me think of the teleporting Stormspire (WB16), except on a grander scale.

What if Battleship Galatica's armada were, instead of space ships, a flotilla of towers packed with Tolkeenite refugees slowly teleporting their way across the prairies...

[Slider65]

Oh, I like the idea of Stormspire getting involved in the evacuation. That just opens up all kinds of Possibilities. For one, Stormspire teleporting in and packing in as much stuff (and people of course) as it can hold and then returning back to it's home. Talk about an opportunity for K'Zaa to get his hands on all sorts of new and interesting techno-wizardry that Tolkeen had developed, plus as many of the actual people involved in the making of said items, and he would be ecstatic.

[Warshield73]

I had a small town trapped between the CS and FoM where a techno-wizard tried to teleport it away, he accidentally turned it into a Fade-Town.

The problem for Tolkeen is how large it is so moving as one unit is almost impossible. I could see an evacuation where non-combatants evacuated to...all of the above. Some end up in the UWW, others in Center, some to Lazlo and New Lazlo and still others all over the world. In this situation I could see, instead of swapping Tolkeen for a nastier place, just inviting hordes of demons and monsters in to take over so that when the CS arrives you have glorious scumbag on scumbag violence.

I could see them trying to fold the entire city into a pocket dimension but who knows how bad that might go.

[Killer Cyborg]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

[Grazzik]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

You ARE an infinite Megaverse in my books, KC!

Jokes aside, logic would suggest that an extra-dimensional backdoor escape route would make total sense. But when dealing with crazy leaders drunk with insane levels of power and fragile egos, they may commit others to an unwinnable cause for the sake of pride rather than think of the greater good of the people. Hence the game I ran where people weren't allowed to evacuate via rifts, as they were expected to fight and defend the kingdom down to the last being, giving rise to black market trafficking to an astral domain. Makes for a good tense story of desperation when you restrict access to the one thing you'd imagine would be freely available in a magical kingdom littered with nexuses... namely, PPE. Most people don't have the PPE to open a Rift without a ley line buff and with authorities cracking down on ritual ceremonies / unauthorized gatherings. Think of a squad of deputized Alu demons kicking down the door to a birthday party because it might be cover for an illegal draft-dodging dimensional teleport ritual to safety. Personal freedoms are often the first victims of war.

[Ice Dragon]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

[Killer Cyborg]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

You ARE an infinite Megaverse in my books, KC!

[taalismn]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.

Of course, there will be one or more CS commanders who acquire Ahab-style obsessions with HUNTING DOWN TOLKEEN! to the point that when cooler heads back in Chi-Town call on them to return home, the generals disobey orders to keep going. Possible mutinies in the ranks when the troops learn that their units are now considered to be running rogue.

The Emperor, realizing that while he's got some proven zealots pursuing a traditional enemy as he'd like, the same force is also dangerously overextending itself and follow-up units being sucked in along them by the chain of command. Other fronts are acting up, and while the character-shielded CS military machine is whipping up new formations, legions of skelebots, and cannon fodder shock troops from the 'burbs, even that's not enough to keep the empire form stretching itself too thin. So he has to make the difficult decision to recall the troops, even might order the assassination of a few rogue officers if necessary to enforce the orders.

[Warshield73]

Frankly, I’m an infinite Megaverse, I always found it odd that magical cities like Tolkeen don’t relocate to an unpopulated world in the first place, or at least have a colony somewhere that doesn’t have CS and vamps and Xiticix and such.

The problem with that is that any place with enough ambient PPE to support a Tolkeen is also going to attract vamps, demons and worse. Look at what happened to the Lord of the Deep and Lemuria. They got stuck in a place they couldn't escape from which might be a problem for the inhabitants of a place like Tolkeen.

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

I have to agree with some of the others, if they go far enough away I just don't see them following that far or for that long. That said I could see a few squads of special operators and especially mercenaries sent out to cause trouble for the survivors and then you have to take into account what the Vanguard might do.

[Fenris2020]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.

Of course, there will be one or more CS commanders who acquire Ahab-style obsessions with HUNTING DOWN TOLKEEN! to the point that when cooler heads back in Chi-Town call on them to return home, the generals disobey orders to keep going. Possible mutinies in the ranks when the troops learn that their units are now considered to be running rogue.

The Emperor, realizing that while he's got some proven zealots pursuing a traditional enemy as he'd like, the same force is also dangerously overextending itself and follow-up units being sucked in along them by the chain of command. Other fronts are acting up, and while the character-shielded CS military machine is whipping up new formations, legions of skelebots, and cannon fodder shock troops from the 'burbs, even that's not enough to keep the empire form stretching itself too thin. So he has to make the difficult decision to recall the troops, even might order the assassination of a few rogue officers if necessary to enforce the orders.

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

[Warshield73]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.

Of course, there will be one or more CS commanders who acquire Ahab-style obsessions with HUNTING DOWN TOLKEEN! to the point that when cooler heads back in Chi-Town call on them to return home, the generals disobey orders to keep going. Possible mutinies in the ranks when the troops learn that their units are now considered to be running rogue.

The Emperor, realizing that while he's got some proven zealots pursuing a traditional enemy as he'd like, the same force is also dangerously overextending itself and follow-up units being sucked in along them by the chain of command. Other fronts are acting up, and while the character-shielded CS military machine is whipping up new formations, legions of skelebots, and cannon fodder shock troops from the 'burbs, even that's not enough to keep the empire form stretching itself too thin. So he has to make the difficult decision to recall the troops, even might order the assassination of a few rogue officers if necessary to enforce the orders.

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

Any group that uses vehicles equipped with reactors with lifespans measured in decades and energy weapons that can be recharged in those vehicles is going to have a degree of freedom from supply lines. When my characters where first starting out the only supply they ever had problem with was food and you can keep a lot of MREs in some of those APCs.

[Grazzik]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.
...

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

Any group that uses vehicles equipped with reactors with lifespans measured in decades and energy weapons that can be recharged in those vehicles is going to have a degree of freedom from supply lines. When my characters where first starting out the only supply they ever had problem with was food and you can keep a lot of MREs in some of those APCs.

Which brings up a point that I haven't seen discussed - can you eat Xiticix? Insects are eaten all the time IRL. There was a thread that discussed eating Xiticix parts for necromancy, but there was no discussion as to whether eating Xiticix (for whatever reason) could actually be done or whether Xiticix flesh under the chitin is edible. It would appear from the books that Xiticix have a bio-chemistry compatible with Earth life as they eat fungus and various Earth plant matter. So, could Holmes and gang simply eat whatever Xiticix they run into and replace or supplement any MREs or foraged food they may have? Yes, a hive would swarm if they saw the CS troops pose an imminent threat, particularly if the humans were known to eat Xiticix, but Xiticix are likely intelligent enough to realize where to leave Holmes et al alone to pass through without swarming if it would best serve the hive to avoid a potentially disastrous fight. So, while it may be opportunistic, Holmes et al could survive well if Xiticix were edible.

[Warshield73]

Tolkeen on the run, means the CS Army would follow to destroy them completly. Reminds me of a Battlestar Galactica inspired game .

With a CS military that either overextends its supply lines or focuses so much attention going after ONE group that somebody else slips around their character shields and hits them from another direction.
...

Judging by Holmes' survival, I'd say that the CS is immune from the need for supply lines.

Any group that uses vehicles equipped with reactors with lifespans measured in decades and energy weapons that can be recharged in those vehicles is going to have a degree of freedom from supply lines. When my characters where first starting out the only supply they ever had problem with was food and you can keep a lot of MREs in some of those APCs.

Which brings up a point that I haven't seen discussed - can you eat Xiticix? Insects are eaten all the time IRL. There was a thread that discussed eating Xiticix parts for necromancy, but there was no discussion as to whether eating Xiticix (for whatever reason) could actually be done or whether Xiticix flesh under the chitin is edible. It would appear from the books that Xiticix have a bio-chemistry compatible with Earth life as they eat fungus and various Earth plant matter. So, could Holmes and gang simply eat whatever Xiticix they run into and replace or supplement any MREs or foraged food they may have? Yes, a hive would swarm if they saw the CS troops pose an imminent threat, particularly if the humans were known to eat Xiticix, but Xiticix are likely intelligent enough to realize where to leave Holmes et al alone to pass through without swarming if it would best serve the hive to avoid a potentially disastrous fight. So, while it may be opportunistic, Holmes et al could survive well if Xiticix were edible.

I could be wrong but my understanding was that Xiticix could not eat earth life. I thought the fungus was of their world and they simple fed it the remains of plant life. I am currently 4 states away from my books and don't have PDFs on this device so I can't check but my understanding was they basically Xiti-form all planets eliminating all life in favor of themselves and the fungus they eat.

As for eating them, if they can eat earth plants, and are mortal creatures then you should be able to crack the MDC shell and eat the innards but who knows. My feeling is that even if you just use modern rations as baseline a single Mark V with no troops and an empty sky cycle bay could hold weeks of rations for hundred of troops. Go to the high tech Triax stuff and food is all the sudden not an issue.

Whenever people talk about modern supply line problems it is mostly fuel. Of course aircraft guzzle gas like nothing but tanks like the Abrahams with that thirsty gas turbine engine those fuel conveys were always the ones that got hit the hardest.

A Rifts military with high end reactors (no fuel), and energy based weapons (powered by those reactors) and you can really reduce the reliance on resupply. Hell those reactors open up all sorts of possibilities for other things like water allowing teams in the field to purity any source.

Modern Rifts militaries like the CS or NGR could have T3Rs of 1 to 1 or even favoring combat troops like we saw in WWI. The single biggest issue, IMO, would be maintenance and repair.

[Grazzik]

I could be wrong but my understanding was that Xiticix could not eat earth life. I thought the fungus was of their world and they simple fed it the remains of plant life. I am currently 4 states away from my books and don't have PDFs on this device so I can't check but my understanding was they basically Xiti-form all planets eliminating all life in favor of themselves and the fungus they eat.

No worries, see:

Note: Although the fungus is the primary food source of the Xiticix, they can, in a pinch, also eat fresh or rotting fruit, mushrooms, lichen and potatoes.

The single biggest issue, IMO, would be maintenance and repair.

Bingo, agreed.

[darthauthor]

I agree about maintenance and repair.

All the damage the Xiticix would do to the vehicles, I believe, would make the force that came down from the North a shambles. Plus, unless you could fit all the men in vehicles they would panic and shoot and the Xiticix would kill them.

With the men dying or dead they would probably be enough food with rationing.

WATER, however, would be, in my mind, the biggest issue.

[Warshield73]

I agree about maintenance and repair.

All the damage the Xiticix would do to the vehicles, I believe, would make the force that came down from the North a shambles. Plus, unless you could fit all the men in vehicles they would panic and shoot and the Xiticix would kill them.

This has been discussed many times and no doubt will be again. It all depends on how you view a militaries discipline. In this case the ability to ignore provocation and push ahead with the certain knowledge that if you don't you will be wiped out to the last person.

With the men dying or dead they would probably be enough food with rationing.

WATER, however, would be, in my mind, the biggest issue.

The ability to pump, purify and decontaminate water on the go is limited only by power and availability of water. There is no shortage of water in Xiticix territory and the reactor provides the power so water shouldn't be an issue.

[Fenris2020]

Holmes and his few thousand men were cut off for how many months? Days? Sure. Weeks? Possibly, it depends on how well supplied you were when you went off. Months? Nope.
No, he and most of his men/ vehicles would not have survived that long. Hygiene, and the problems coming from the lack, will be an issue.
I was in the army for 8 years; I understand the needed logistics a bit better than some civilian with a pencil and note-book.
Food is important, and that many people are going to scare away most of the game.
Scurvy would be a thing; as the food runs out, they'll have to start eating long pork, and while initially the livers will have vitamin C, eventually that will deplete. They also need to stay away from the brain/ spinal fluids to hold off on getting "the shakes".
Any survivors of that many months will be skinny, unhygienic, with rags for clothing and the armor probably won't be that awesome either. Many will probably be mad.

[darthauthor]

Thank you Fenris2020,

Your words are the voice of reality and reason.

Of course, it does not irritate me that general Holmes or the CS won; just how they supposedly did it.

Deus ex Machina is considered bad story telling by most.
It leaves a bitter taste with the idea that no matter what you do, practice or prepare for, it is your inescapable fate to win or lose, no matter what you choose or do, because that is what the author wanted.

It makes me feel the character and world are inauthentic even within their own fantasy universe.

[Warshield73]

Holmes and his few thousand men were cut off for how many months? Days? Sure. Weeks? Possibly, it depends on how well supplied you were when you went off. Months? Nope.
No, he and most of his men/ vehicles would not have survived that long. Hygiene, and the problems coming from the lack, will be an issue.
I was in the army for 8 years; I understand the needed logistics a bit better than some civilian with a pencil and note-book.
Food is important, and that many people are going to scare away most of the game.
Scurvy would be a thing; as the food runs out, they'll have to start eating long pork, and while initially the livers will have vitamin C, eventually that will deplete. They also need to stay away from the brain/ spinal fluids to hold off on getting "the shakes".
Any survivors of that many months will be skinny, unhygienic, with rags for clothing and the armor probably won't be that awesome either. Many will probably be mad.

Don't get me wrong, this civilian doesn't think that, as written, that this is even remotely possible. I was just making a point about how the logistics picture changes when you get into the Rifts setting. However, a few points to consider here:

1) The biggest item is that while Holmes has been missing for months he was only in Xiticix terriroty for a few weeks (from distance travelled and speed of 10 MPH it looks like 12 to 15 days) and was only in combat for 72 hours. See SoT Bool 5 page 110. Most of the time he has been missing he was "dug in" in the northern territory of Tolkeen outside of Xiticix territory. So they wweren't in combat for months, they were only engaged for 3 days and then on the move for another 10 or so. After they they rested, repaired, ambushed some militia and basically sat around whith their thumbs up their @$$'s.

2) Xiticix territory is not continuous. If you look at the map on page 35 of WB 23 you can see huge gaps between each territory. Holmes clearly cuts across the extreme Southwestern corner of Duluth and heads towards Crookston or Big Falls entering that gap 10 or so days later. Once there they can proceed through that gap towards Little Falls.

3) Once you have these facts a lot of the problems you state while not eliminated, are certainly mitigated. Once dug in they can create rudimentary facilities to see to issue such as hygiene that you brought up, and that assumes they don't have those facilities to begin with. We have almost no information on CS support vehicles but one of the Riftsers has an excellent article on Mark V APC variants that include a C&C, mine disposal, food preparation, and shower facilities. If they had anything like this then surviving is even easier.

Rifts is not a war game. We don't have all the information on economies and logistics that you would need for a proper analysis and we have no statistics on support vehicels. What we do know is about the combat vehicles and those are very different then modern vehicles. They are built for weeks and months away from facilities under harsh conditions. These are not billion dollar aircraft that can't fly in the rain or need 10 mechanics operation for 6 months to make it fly 1 hour. This is probably not realistic but it is how tech in the game is set up.

This means that Holmes survival is merely preposterous in keeping with most military SF I have read and not blatantly ridiculous at least within the setting. As for real life...he was fighting giant alien bugs what does real life have to do with it.

Thank you Fenris2020,

Your words are the voice of reality and reason.

Of course, it does not irritate me that general Holmes or the CS won; just how they supposedly did it.

Deus ex Machina is considered bad story telling by most.
It leaves a bitter taste with the idea that no matter what you do, practice or prepare for, it is your inescapable fate to win or lose, no matter what you choose or do, because that is what the author wanted.

It makes me feel the character and world are inauthentic even within their own fantasy universe.

From the beginning, you know the end. That was the tag line for Halo Reach probably the third best game in the entire franchise. In this game you are on Reach, the planet that was destroyed before the start of the 1st game. You, the player, can not stop Reach from falling, you even die at the end. Your job is to uncover the information and then acquire Cortana so that in the first game the Pillar of Autumn can make the jump to Halo. Games like this are common.

In the beginning, that's Rifts Main Book 1990 edition, Tolkeen and to a lesser extent New Lazlo were dead men walking, anyone who read RMB new not to get attached.

Siege on Tolkeen itself is technically 6 books but the 4th one is Cyber-Knights which does not advance the plot at all and book 1 is just the set up. This means the story of the war start to finish is in 4 books.

The first of these, Book 2 has over 30 mentions of General Holmes including a full character description (not quick stats) which details his favored tactics, shows an exceptional ME and a super human MA. He is mentioned in the text more than 30 times so not a throw away character.

The second of these books, Book 3 Sorcerers Revenge gives the description of Holmes running into Xiticix territory with the phrase "presumed dead" used so many times it might as well be a neon sign "He's Coming Back".

Book 5 Shadows of Evil, as discussed, is actually the next book in the story and the Epilogue is all about Holmes, how he survived and what his plans were.

Book 6 we see those plans and the defeat of Tolkeen.

As a story this is not Deus ex Machina as it is foreshadowed from the beginning. Most of what you seem to be complaining about is meta plot and I understand that. Lots of GM's ignore the meta plots and that is perfectly valid way to play. In games where you use the meta your players do not have an impact on what happens, they can only impact how it happens.

The Four Horsemen are defeated, if not game over.
The Mechanoids are defeated, if not game over.
Naruni Enterprises is forced out of North America by the CS, that's the book.
Iron Heart Amerments is conquered by the CS, that's in the book and important to the story.
The stages of the war, starting positions, opening attack, counter attack, and final CS victory all laid out in the books and beyond the control of your players.

Your players can't stop it, unless you as the GM want to allow it and not follow the books.
So they can not effect the outcome, but they can effect other outcomes. How many civilians make it to safety? How many magical artifacts are secreted away? How much damage is done to the CS? How much intelligence on the CS gets to other rivals like Lazlo, Federation of Magic or even Quebec?

If you don't like meta plots in your RPG I get it but saying this doesn't make sense within the story is a little like saying that it makes no sense that a farm boy with no training can blow up the Deathstar. That is just the story, use it or ignore it it's your game.

[darthauthor]

Well written Warshield73,

It's a story.

It's a game.

I am a BIG Star Wars fan. I saw the first movie to come out when I was a kid and I was very excited by it.
As an adult I can look at it and see a lot of things that I don't like amounting to stupid heroes and stupid villains and PLOT ARMOR.

Your quote, "... saying this doesn't make sense within the story is a little like saying that it makes no sense that a farm boy with no training can blow up the Deathstar."

You are RIGHT!

I does not make sense. A self-taught farm boy flying a ship he'd never flown before, in space where he's never flown before, dog-fighting in space, which he has never done before, making a sort of one in a million shot down an exhaust pipe blowing OUT (and as soon as it turns goes down it blows up; as opposed to several minutes to reach the center) a few seconds before the whole thing blows up (while he escapes the explosion and debris).

And All while two Sith Lords who can see the future don't foresee the Death Star's destruction.

Of course, I'd go back to they time they were all on the Death Star.
Princess Leia lies to the Imperials about the location of the Rebel base.
Tarkin gets impatient and Vader gets an idea: Let Leia escape and their tracking device tell them where the Rebel base is located.

It's stupid because Princess Leia knows that the villains let her escape.
Even if they did not, why take the chance of going straight to the Rebal base.
Why not make copies of the Death Star plans and send them all over, that way the Rebels can find them in every sector of the Galaxy? Why trust Han Solo? Why give them the coordinates to the Rebel base on Yavin when you can ask to go anywhere else and send the Death Star Plans by galactic radio or something.

You are right Warshield73.

[Sambot]

Well written Warshield73,

It's a story.

It's a game.

I am a BIG Star Wars fan. I saw the first movie to come out when I was a kid and I was very excited by it.
As an adult I can look at it and see a lot of things that I don't like amounting to stupid heroes and stupid villains and PLOT ARMOR.

Your quote, "... saying this doesn't make sense within the story is a little like saying that it makes no sense that a farm boy with no training can blow up the Deathstar."

You are RIGHT!

I does not make sense. A self-taught farm boy flying a ship he'd never flown before, in space where he's never flown before, dog-fighting in space, which he has never done before, making a sort of one in a million shot down an exhaust pipe blowing OUT (and as soon as it turns goes down it blows up; as opposed to several minutes to reach the center) a few seconds before the whole thing blows up (while he escapes the explosion and debris).

And All while two Sith Lords who can see the future don't foresee the Death Star's destruction.

Of course, I'd go back to they time they were all on the Death Star.
Princess Leia lies to the Imperials about the location of the Rebel base.
Tarkin gets impatient and Vader gets an idea: Let Leia escape and their tracking device tell them where the Rebel base is located.

It's stupid because Princess Leia knows that the villains let her escape.
Even if they did not, why take the chance of going straight to the Rebal base.
Why not make copies of the Death Star plans and send them all over, that way the Rebels can find them in every sector of the Galaxy? Why trust Han Solo? Why give them the coordinates to the Rebel base on Yavin when you can ask to go anywhere else and send the Death Star Plans by galactic radio or something.

You are right Warshield73.

Granted not everything was shown in the original movie release but we do get more information later.
Luke was a pilot. He did fly a T-16 Skyhopper whose controls are similar to the X-Wings. That helped him fly the X-Wing. Biggs does call Luke "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories". Even if he were exaggerating Luke does have some piloting experience. They could have had dogfights before Biggs left. Luke tells Wedge that "we used to bullseye womprats back home. They're not much bigger than two meters" so he's had practice making a one in a million shot. He also used the Force to make the shot. He didn't have a lot of training in the Force but he had some and Ben guiding him. So it works.

Princess Leia probably headed for the Rebel Base because they couldn't transmit the plans. The Death Star surely has stronger jammers than the Millennium Falcon's transmitters. She takes them to the Rebel Base as she knows they have the equipment to help decode the information and make use of it. They also have money, which she didn't have and Han Solo wanted. If they went somewhere else, he wouldn't get paid. The Falcon is also faster than the Death Star. She could have been gambling that if they couldn't defeat the Death Star they'd have time to evacuate.

Not even Yoda could completely see the future. If he and the entire Jedi Council can miss Palpatine being a Sith Lord, a Sith Lord could miss the destruction of the Death Star. Although Darth Vader did believe more in the force than the technological marvel.

So those things shouldn't be a problem. My question would be, "Why the Rebels didn't have a contingency plan in case the fighters failed?" I suppose they could have evacuated most of the base off screen but no one in the C&C looks like they're planning to run

[darthauthor]

Warshield73,

Your writing has its points.
Your writing has a certain persuasive appeal in details not in the film and I have not read. Things you know or assume would logically happen OFF Screen.

Your question: Why the Rebels didn't have a contingency plan in case the fighters failed?

I don't know.

I can only guess: They flee or surrender. I imagine they did not have enough room on ships to evacuate everyone or time to get them on board.

Your earlier mention of details with regard to Princess Leia.

Leia had no good reason to trust Han Solo.

I believe she should have lied to him about the location of the Rebel base.

She could insist they set down somewhere else until they can search the ship for a tracking device or hand off the Death Star Plans to a Rebel operative or dead drop.

Han Solo is s smuggler. He's experienced with taking elaborate routes to conceal his true destination.
If I remember correctly, he was also a former Imperial navy officer.

Once they set down on a planet or station that suits her needs a search of the ship should reveal the imperial's tracking device. Then they could go to the rebel base or she could attempt to run away fearing it was all a set up and Han Solo is working for or with the Empire.

Smuggle the Death Star Plans through the Rebel network.
Likewise have the plans decoded.

The Empire need never have learned the true location of the Rebel base.

Tome, the bigger issue is WHY should the Empire risk letting Princess Leia escape.
Keep up the drugs and torture or destroying planets (like the planet Mon Cala, home of the Mon Calamari until she talks).

It feels like the Empire is rushing things for no good reason for them.

For the story, it creates pace, and urgency.

But for the villains, what's the rush?
They already have what they believe to be the greatest weapon of mass destruction in the galaxy.
It made need some work to be fully operational but it is functional.

Time to show it off!
Galvanize the support of the loyalist.
Intimidate those on the fense to hop on board the Imperial band wagon.
Destory the worlds of the holdouts.

They have the biggest stick in the Galaxy.

[Fenris2020]

Holmes and his few thousand men were cut off for how many months? Days? Sure. Weeks? Possibly, it depends on how well supplied you were when you went off. Months? Nope.
No, he and most of his men/ vehicles would not have survived that long. Hygiene, and the problems coming from the lack, will be an issue.
I was in the army for 8 years; I understand the needed logistics a bit better than some civilian with a pencil and note-book.
Food is important, and that many people are going to scare away most of the game.
Scurvy would be a thing; as the food runs out, they'll have to start eating long pork, and while initially the livers will have vitamin C, eventually that will deplete. They also need to stay away from the brain/ spinal fluids to hold off on getting "the shakes".
Any survivors of that many months will be skinny, unhygienic, with rags for clothing and the armor probably won't be that awesome either. Many will probably be mad.

Don't get me wrong, this civilian doesn't think that, as written, that this is even remotely possible. I was just making a point about how the logistics picture changes when you get into the Rifts setting. However, a few points to consider here:

1) The biggest item is that while Holmes has been missing for months he was only in Xiticix terriroty for a few weeks (from distance travelled and speed of 10 MPH it looks like 12 to 15 days) and was only in combat for 72 hours. See SoT Bool 5 page 110. Most of the time he has been missing he was "dug in" in the northern territory of Tolkeen outside of Xiticix territory. So they wweren't in combat for months, they were only engaged for 3 days and then on the move for another 10 or so. After they they rested, repaired, ambushed some militia and basically sat around whith their thumbs up their @$$'s.

2) Xiticix territory is not continuous. If you look at the map on page 35 of WB 23 you can see huge gaps between each territory. Holmes clearly cuts across the extreme Southwestern corner of Duluth and heads towards Crookston or Big Falls entering that gap 10 or so days later. Once there they can proceed through that gap towards Little Falls.

3) Once you have these facts a lot of the problems you state while not eliminated, are certainly mitigated. Once dug in they can create rudimentary facilities to see to issue such as hygiene that you brought up, and that assumes they don't have those facilities to begin with. We have almost no information on CS support vehicles but one of the Riftsers has an excellent article on Mark V APC variants that include a C&C, mine disposal, food preparation, and shower facilities. If they had anything like this then surviving is even easier.

Rifts is not a war game. We don't have all the information on economies and logistics that you would need for a proper analysis and we have no statistics on support vehicels. What we do know is about the combat vehicles and those are very different then modern vehicles. They are built for weeks and months away from facilities under harsh conditions. These are not billion dollar aircraft that can't fly in the rain or need 10 mechanics operation for 6 months to make it fly 1 hour. This is probably not realistic but it is how tech in the game is set up.

This means that Holmes survival is merely preposterous in keeping with most military SF I have read and not blatantly ridiculous at least within the setting. As for real life...he was fighting giant alien bugs what does real life have to do with it.

Thank you Fenris2020,

Your words are the voice of reality and reason.

Of course, it does not irritate me that general Holmes or the CS won; just how they supposedly did it.

Deus ex Machina is considered bad story telling by most.
It leaves a bitter taste with the idea that no matter what you do, practice or prepare for, it is your inescapable fate to win or lose, no matter what you choose or do, because that is what the author wanted.

It makes me feel the character and world are inauthentic even within their own fantasy universe.

From the beginning, you know the end. That was the tag line for Halo Reach probably the third best game in the entire franchise. In this game you are on Reach, the planet that was destroyed before the start of the 1st game. You, the player, can not stop Reach from falling, you even die at the end. Your job is to uncover the information and then acquire Cortana so that in the first game the Pillar of Autumn can make the jump to Halo. Games like this are common.

In the beginning, that's Rifts Main Book 1990 edition, Tolkeen and to a lesser extent New Lazlo were dead men walking, anyone who read RMB new not to get attached.

Siege on Tolkeen itself is technically 6 books but the 4th one is Cyber-Knights which does not advance the plot at all and book 1 is just the set up. This means the story of the war start to finish is in 4 books.

The first of these, Book 2 has over 30 mentions of General Holmes including a full character description (not quick stats) which details his favored tactics, shows an exceptional ME and a super human MA. He is mentioned in the text more than 30 times so not a throw away character.

The second of these books, Book 3 Sorcerers Revenge gives the description of Holmes running into Xiticix territory with the phrase "presumed dead" used so many times it might as well be a neon sign "He's Coming Back".

Book 5 Shadows of Evil, as discussed, is actually the next book in the story and the Epilogue is all about Holmes, how he survived and what his plans were.

Book 6 we see those plans and the defeat of Tolkeen.

As a story this is not Deus ex Machina as it is foreshadowed from the beginning. Most of what you seem to be complaining about is meta plot and I understand that. Lots of GM's ignore the meta plots and that is perfectly valid way to play. In games where you use the meta your players do not have an impact on what happens, they can only impact how it happens.

The Four Horsemen are defeated, if not game over.
The Mechanoids are defeated, if not game over.
Naruni Enterprises is forced out of North America by the CS, that's the book.
Iron Heart Amerments is conquered by the CS, that's in the book and important to the story.
The stages of the war, starting positions, opening attack, counter attack, and final CS victory all laid out in the books and beyond the control of your players.

Your players can't stop it, unless you as the GM want to allow it and not follow the books.
So they can not effect the outcome, but they can effect other outcomes. How many civilians make it to safety? How many magical artifacts are secreted away? How much damage is done to the CS? How much intelligence on the CS gets to other rivals like Lazlo, Federation of Magic or even Quebec?

If you don't like meta plots in your RPG I get it but saying this doesn't make sense within the story is a little like saying that it makes no sense that a farm boy with no training can blow up the Deathstar. That is just the story, use it or ignore it it's your game.

LOL I understand they weren't in combat for months. I don't even think the authors of these books are ignorant enough to think that would happen.
But that's a lot of people, needing a lot of food and water and means to maintain and clean themselves and their equipment for that many months. Added to that the entire CS thought Holmes & Co. were dead, so... no re-supply from that quarter. If they're in an area with any sort of people in the area, the word's going to get out.
As for meta-plot, I get that the CS was going to win, sure. It was like Germany versus Poland.
But Tolkeen didn't exploit their own strengths very well, either. They knew the war was coming. They didn't seem to send any human scouts into the fortress cities, just as tourists, perhaps even minor psychics willing to get the bar-code thing. Those could take photos of the areas tourists are allowed. Hell, Tolkeen could've sent in sleeper agents, for that matter; the biggest bit of foolishness of CS enemies was not to replace Mrs. Prosek with an Auto-G...
The war gets started. Some adult dragons use those photos to, after they cast defensive spells on themselves, teleport in and cast major destructive spells in those areas, then teleport back out. That will cause panic and fear, not only in the surviving civilians but also in the powers that be, and definitely the soldiers in the field who then have to worry about the stress of combat but also are their families ok.
Even if the chain-of-command tries to quash news from home, some people always get the word; hell, the enemy can broadcast it to them at night. Sleep tight, Dead Boys.
The whole thing ended up like Season 8 Game of Thrones, where Silver Queen loses all her Dothraki, and they re-spawn in the last episode; the CS lost nothing, and that, my friend, is crap writing. The Juicer Uprising book handles it a LOT better than the SoT books did.

[darthauthor]

Something I see as a HUGE ERROR was the CS ASSUMING or PRESUMING Holmes and Co were dead.

The CS has a huge number of psychics.

Many have the psionic power of Remote Viewing and Clarivoyance.

In short, CS Psi Division, with a photo and name would know the Holmes was alive.

This, I imagine, is a writer(s) forgetting their heroes / villains super powers.
Then remembering them only when it serves the plot and to advance the story.

I'd expect Tolkeen psychics would Remote View Holmes and Company to make sure he was dead.
In short, Holmes survived and return should not be a surprise to the CS or Tolkeen. Regardless of whether or not he should have been able to make the journey and survive through Xiticix dominated lands.

[Sambot]

Warshield73,

Your writing has its points.
Your writing has a certain persuasive appeal in details not in the film and I have not read. Things you know or assume would logically happen OFF Screen.

Your question: Why the Rebels didn't have a contingency plan in case the fighters failed?

I don't know.

I can only guess: They flee or surrender. I imagine they did not have enough room on ships to evacuate everyone or time to get them on board.

Possible.

Your earlier mention of details with regard to Princess Leia.

Leia had no good reason to trust Han Solo.

I believe she should have lied to him about the location of the Rebel base.

She could insist they set down somewhere else until they can search the ship for a tracking device or hand off the Death Star Plans to a Rebel operative or dead drop.

Han Solo is s smuggler. He's experienced with taking elaborate routes to conceal his true destination.
If I remember correctly, he was also a former Imperial navy officer.

Once they set down on a planet or station that suits her needs a search of the ship should reveal the imperial's tracking device. Then they could go to the rebel base or she could attempt to run away fearing it was all a set up and Han Solo is working for or with the Empire.

Smuggle the Death Star Plans through the Rebel network.
Likewise have the plans decoded.

The Empire need never have learned the true location of the Rebel base.

You still have the problem of payment. Leia can't pay him if they go anywhere else. She also can't afford to pay to transmit anything, unless she wants to sell her clothing or her body. Not something I can see a princess doing.

Han also didn't believe they were tracking him. As a smuggler he has experience with hiding cargo and outrunning Imperial ships, and even he still gets boarded sometimes. I also can't see him taking them on a joyride so they can tear his ship apart for something he doesn't believe is there. That she could run away would be more reasons for him not to go joyriding with her. He wants to get paid and get Jaba off his back. Han and Luke also have the R2 unit so she still needs them to get the plans. They're with Ben Kenobi whom she's trusting. If the empire had gotten a hold of it they'd of just read it's memory to get the location of the base. Larkin and Vader would have happily told her she'd failed her mission if they'd done that. That they didn't and Luke and Han knowning Ben gave her reason, and hope, to trust them. Plus, the Stormtroopers weren't shooting blanks at them. That more reason to trust them.

Tome, the bigger issue is WHY should the Empire risk letting Princess Leia escape.
Keep up the drugs and torture or destroying planets (like the planet Mon Cala, home of the Mon Calamari until she talks).

It feels like the Empire is rushing things for no good reason for them.

For the story, it creates pace, and urgency.

But for the villains, what's the rush?
They already have what they believe to be the greatest weapon of mass destruction in the galaxy.
It made need some work to be fully operational but it is functional.

Time to show it off!
Galvanize the support of the loyalist.
Intimidate those on the fense to hop on board the Imperial band wagon.
Destory the worlds of the holdouts.

They have the biggest stick in the Galaxy.

Because Leia was able to resist the drugs and all the torture Vader put her through. The Empire also wanted the Rebellion done with. It's been going on, in multiple forms, over twenty years. Time to end it. And while destroying planets is good for terror, it's not so good for the economy. You can run you ships, or pay your troopers if you shoot up all your planets.

[darthauthor]

On the 2nd point Princess Leia could just lie to Han Solo or hold out.
Or Obi-Wan could take the droid and deliver the plans while the princess stayed with Han Solo as collateral.

On point 3
It sounds to me like the villains got impatient.
Princess Leia could not hold out against drugs and torture forever.

You are RIGHT about blowing up all the planets.
That is NOT an effective strategy; especially in the long term.

[Sambot]

On the 2nd point Princess Leia could just lie to Han Solo or hold out.
Or Obi-Wan could take the droid and deliver the plans while the princess stayed with Han Solo as collateral.

On point 3
It sounds to me like the villains got impatient.
Princess Leia could not hold out against drugs and torture forever.

You are RIGHT about blowing up all the planets.
That is NOT an effective strategy; especially in the long term.

1) Leia couldn't hold out forever. Han's going to want his money and they'll need to land eventually to get food and water.
2) That only works if Ben would be able to escape with them. And we know that didn't happen. Plus, how would he get there? They've only got the one ship and no other money.

3) They probably were a bit impatient but they also wanted a planet to demonstrate the power of the Death Star. Since she wouldn't cooperate they picked hers.

Thanks. They were figuring fear would keep the planets in line. I think for the most part that'd of worked. At least in the short term. I think covert help for the Rebellion would have grown though.