More magic questions

[Veknironth]

Well, it has been awhile since I have written a rambling post asking about the minutia of how spells work. I'll continue with some wall questions.

Walls do a certain amount of damage when dropped on people, and it doesn't seem to matter the material, it seems to matter the distance it is dopped. Wall of Clay does 6d6, and can only be cast 30 feet away, while walls of stone or iron do 1d6x10 and can be cast 60 feet away. So, it seems like the distance is the determining factor, and the damage is a factor of momentum (Mass x velocity). That would also imply that the wall has to fall from the maximum height to do that full damage. If that is the case, then what happens when someone levitates a warlock and that warlock then casts the spell from their levitated height. If the walls are dropped from several times the maximum height of the spell, do they do more damage? Does a Wall of Iron dropped from 180 feet in the air do 3d6x10 damage? Or do you just ignore the physics of it and just say "Magic" and ignore my attempts to juice the spell's damage.

Can you alter the orientation of the wall when you cast the spell? For example, if the walls are rectangular solids as the dimensions seem to describe, can you make it so that a corner is facing the ground? This would create a wedge, which you would drop from a maximum height. Would that do more damage at the impact point? Speaking of damage, does the wall do that damage to everything trapped under it, or does that damage get split among all the things which are under it? What happens if there are creatures of varying heights? Does the Wolfen take most of the damage and then the elf takes some, then the human, then the dwarf, and finally the gnome takes a little? Can you roll with a wall, if there is something sturdy under the wall? For example, you're standing next to a stone sarcophagus and someone drops the wall on you. If you let your legs to slack, you'll be bonked on the head but the wall should fall on that sarcophagus and you can be safe in that angular space that's formed.

On to clouds. Can they be dispersed? What happens to a Cloud of Slumber/Steam/Miasma/whatever when it is confronted by wind? What about the spell Wind Rush? I know that there is a spell, Dissipate Gases, which is ridiculous. (Side Rant: That spell lasts 4 melee rounds/level but requires 8 melee rounds to dissipate a 30 foot radius cloud. Does it not work at all for a first level caster? What if the cloud is larger than 30 feet radius? Does it make a hole?). With that spell being in the book, it seems that the ONLY way to dissipate a cloud would be via that spell, else why have it? Can you stack clouds? Like can you have a Cloud of Slumber inside a Cloud of Steam, and have them both inside of a Snow Storm? Does the damage from the Steam or Snow wake you if you're asleep? Do the steam and snow cancel each other out? Can you cast the cloud into mid air from one ship and have another ship sail through it?

Solid objects can obviously pass through clouds. You can walk into and out of them, you can throw objects into them, throw objects out of them etc. So, can they be cast into water? Would Cloud of Slumber (CoS) work on underwater creatures who pass through it? What about subterranean? You could put a wall or some earth into the cloud, so they can inhabit the same space, so could you cast the spell into the ground? More importantly, since CoS doesn't require you to breath the cloud, so how much contact with the cloud is required to fall asleep? The spell says "magical sleep on all who pass through it". Does that mean as long as you step in but not out of the spell, it doesn't affect you since you haven't passed THROUGH it? Or does the spell work on whoever touches it? Or do you need to have all of your body in the CoS for it to affect you? If it's only a part of you in the CoS, could you cast the spell into the ground so that only a few inches are above the ground and anyone who steps into the cloud has to save?

-Vek
"My judgement might be cloudy."

[GoliathReturns]

On the walls, especially, I think you're overthinking it.

So yes, I'd say you can absolutely orient it, just as if you were casting it on the ground- but I'd argue that casting it up in the air, with lack of references in spatial positioning, you're not going to get it perfect, so you'll have some wobble and possibly rolling, negating any advantage of trying to do the wedge.

I would also say that its more of a casting it going across (more of a roof/floor) to catch multiple people, and do the appropriate damage. I'd say everyone takes full damage.

If you have someone that can catch, and or deflect, a giant wall of stone falling from the sky onto them, I'd say they can try to roll with. But really? Nah. Come on, man.

I allow wind rush to move clouds, but not dissipate them.

While a single level 1 casting of dissipate wouldn't last long enough, I would stack multiple level 1 castings- if two wizards both cast it, it'll take half the time, so it would happen in 4 rounds.

I absolutely allow clouds to stack. IIRC, there'd an example in the book of two wizards both casting anti-magic cloud.

The gasses in water, I'd say, generally speaking, no. However, if you do allow it, I'd say a reduced effectiveness, due to the spell being watered down (pun not intended, but included free of charge!)

A lot of the rest of those, I'd say go with "common sense solution"

--
GS
"How much sleep has Vek had this week?"

[Veknironth]

Well, overthinking it is sort of the point. The magic wall spells are wonky without being used as a no-dodge, no-parry, attack. But it does beg the question of whether the damage from a wall dropped on people is some inherent magic damage, or is it from gravity accelerating the wall and creating momentum? If it's just the spell somehow administering damage to everyone the wall lands on, then that's a simple solution. It's not made of real stone or iron anyway, so it just is an AoE damage delivery system that looks like a wall. Of course, that still begs the question of what happens when people of different heights are hit. Does the first person receive the damage and then the rest don't?

If it's the actual drop, then it stands to reason that the mass x velocity is making the damage. So, the longer the drop, the greater the velocity, the greater the damage. I also think that if the damage is because of the drop, that gives people underneath 2 seconds to dodge as opposed to the instant hit.

-Vek
"Don't let them be cast on top of people."

[GoliathReturns]

Well, overthinking it is sort of the point. The magic wall spells are wonky without being used as a no-dodge, no-parry, attack. But it does beg the question of whether the damage from a wall dropped on people is some inherent magic damage, or is it from gravity accelerating the wall and creating momentum? If it's just the spell somehow administering damage to everyone the wall lands on, then that's a simple solution. It's not made of real stone or iron anyway, so it just is an AoE damage delivery system that looks like a wall. Of course, that still begs the question of what happens when people of different heights are hit. Does the first person receive the damage and then the rest don't?

If it's the actual drop, then it stands to reason that the mass x velocity is making the damage. So, the longer the drop, the greater the velocity, the greater the damage. I also think that if the damage is because of the drop, that gives people underneath 2 seconds to dodge as opposed to the instant hit.

-Vek
"Don't let them be cast on top of people."

I wouldn't say no dodge. That's just asking for the abuse all over.

As for the details.. it's hand wavium. It's magic. It does not need to be based in science, physics, or reality

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

Re: Walls & Damage vs Distance
Slight nitpick as I'm Not sure if it changed between printings or category of Magic, but all 3x walls for the Earth Warlock (Clay, Iron, Stone) are cast the same distance (PF2E pg228-9/230/232), but Clay does do less damage (6d6 vs 1d6x10). Even "Wall of Ice" (Fire/Water Element) is 60ft and 1d6x10 (pg237/241). So I'm not sure where you are getting 30ft for clay?

I don't think the distance is a factor, nor the mass of the wall (it doesn't change between levels as the size increases, then again the PS lift requirement doesn't change either). If it was, based on mass ice should do the least amount of damage (as it less dense than the other 3 materials) and Iron should do more (higher density than stone). I wanted to suggest "hardness" of the material, but ice still is an issue (not to mention we'd need to know the type of stone), though we could say magic is influencing the ice rating (which is dependent on temperature).

I'd leave the damages alone, though if you aren't satisfied with them you could work out the mass of the wall at a given size for each, and use the miscellaneous damage table from another megaversal line (ex Rifts UE pg345, this option seems missing from PF2E unless I just missed it, but treating the wall then as a "Dropped Large Object" would do 3d6 per 100lb/45kg +10 per 40ft/12.2m. That means a (1st Level) "Wall of Ice with a density of 920kg/m^3 should do 3d6*141, I don't even want to know what Iron looks like with its 7,870kg/m^3 would look like.

I don't have a problem per say with being able to rotate the wall, but damage would remain the same to keep it simple. Damage would be to everything trapped under it as any other AOE attack, and not distributed (ie 5 guys get trapped, its 1d6x10 for each, not 1d6x10/5 for each). Height of those under it should matter, I think the slight difference in heights for most races probably isn't enough to worry about (I could be wrong but for simplicity I'd go with that).

Re: Dissipate Gases
As it is a 4th Level Spell I think it would depend if you use the caster's overall level (which for warlocks would need to be 4th) or counting from when it was acquired (so 4th level would be 1st). If one uses the caster level, then there is no issue, unless the warlock/caster can acquire it prior to 4th level. In the other scenario (which you seem to be using) it just means it hasn't finished the job of dissipating the cloud/gas.

Re: Clouds of X spells
Yes Wind Rush should impact non magical clouds. Magical Clouds though I'd say are magically held to an area unless a spell specifically states it can impact it (or an extremely powerful wind).

Re: Cloud Stacking
I'd allow stacking only if they can complement each other and are not in opposition. So a Cloud of Steam can't stack with a Cloud of Snow Storm, but I could see Cloud of Slumber with either (tread Slumber as an anesthetic, since you don't normally wake up in Surgery from them cutting into you)

Re: Clouds of X cast underwater
Yes, due to the fact that gases can (and are) be dissolved in water. Now some clouds might be incompatible with the environment here, so there might be exceptions. Though I could certainly see altering the AoE for a given cloud due to the density of water vs air.

Re: Clouds of X cast into the ground
No. The material is to dense for the cloud to form.