Lazlo vs. the CS

[Hystrix]

You know, alot of message boardees post about ways to assasinate Emporer Prosek, and little Joe. However, I belive that there are two figure in the CS that are much more dangerous. They are:

1.) Dr. Desmond Bradford - This guy is evil, and insane... but he is a figgin' genius, and one of the real reasons the CS dominates so. He (with the Lone Star Complex) is the reason behind the Dog Boys and other mutations, and has had much sucsess with the Skelebots. Both of these are major forces within' the CS war machine and help keep the cost of human lives down.

Then there are things like the Xiticix Killer. Yes I know it said in Aftermath that the project was over, and that it was basically a failure, but I beileve that Bradfords genius (given more time) will see a new mutant rise from the ashes of the XK. One that will be the end of the bug-men.

2.) General Jericho Holmes - Let's face it. The CS got thier butts handed to them by Tolkeen in several ill fated attemps before and during the start of the war. Then there was the Sorcerers' Revenge. If not for Holmes, who is the only real strategest in the CS army, the CS would have lost the Final Seige.

IMHO, if someone want's to assasinate anyone, do these two. Prosek has had the advantage of being surrounded by geniuses like these men. Without them Karl would have lost Tolkeen and probably not had all the things the High Command enjoys now. Little Joe might be better than Daddy, but even he will need powerful men (and or women) to aid him.

That having been said, I think a war between the CS and Lazlo would probably fall in Lazlos' favor. And if some more unscrupulos elements from Lazlo were to step in and assisinate either Bradford or Holmes (or both, though Holmes would be the better target), the CS would lose --- hard.

Now, I am still a big CS fan, but I do not think they can beat Lazlo...

If they couldn't handle Tolkeen without relying on one man (Holmes), then Lazlo will be even tougher...

... And I don't think there is a plot line in the world that could save them...

[Dustin Fireblade]

... And I don't think there is a plot line in the world that could save them...

The Vanguard will suddenly get a extra division or two worth of high powered mages.

Can't argue too much with what you said there except for this line:

If not for Holmes, who is the only real strategest in the CS army

If you meant involved in the SoT, then yes, though Kira Moss is stated to have experience fighting the FoM and border fighting with Tolkeen prior to the start of SoT.

Now the CS as a whole, well we have Cabot, Underhill, Kashbrook and Kalpov. If the CS can turn out people like that, along with Holmes and even guys like Larsen, then the CS is doing something right in their Officer's Training.

[Hystrix]

As for the assassination ideas, I think that's brilliant. Not for the reasons stated, but for another, extremely important one: The two mentioned (Holmes and Bradford), though loved by the CS people, would not be risen to martyr status if they were killed. Killing either of the Proseks when they're at the peak of their success would be the dumbest act possible. Killing secondary people who are the pillars on which that success stands, however, is a totally different story. By killing those two men, a huge amount of damage would be done to the CS without vaulting any extremists into godhood status.

Yes, yes. I was going to say that next.

[Hystrix]

And I am sure it is no coincidence that they are also the two most prominent threats to the Prosek Regiem from within their own walls.

No. Actually I really mean killing off those two would crush the CS for a long time, and probably spell thier end in a war vs. Lazlo.

That having been said, I do not believe the Jericho Holmes is a threat to Prosek. Asset, yes. Threat, no.

[Sureshot]

I would have to say that Lazlo would win.Not on it's own I just don't think they have the resources. If Lazlo gets attacked the surronding communites will pretty much rally around Lazlo. The attitude in the region right now is you wiped out one magic communuty you won't be given another chance to do it again. Let's not forgot the Federation of Magic. Alistair Duncon has been promising his followers in the Federation revenge agaionst the CS for a long time. If he does not do anything second time around I don't think his followers will let off so easily. There is also the fact that the CS greatly undererestimates the power of the FOM. Due to faulty intelligence.

[Hystrix]

Actually, this particular threat was pointed out by DLDC in another post on Post War CS. Basically he forwaded the notion that Holmes is going to be mighty pissy when his band of heroes do not get Citizenship (as stated in SoT and Aftermath), and could be a very likely candidate to lead a CS Civil War.

Interesting. Well, it's possible, but I still think taking out Holmes would be more of a negitave to the CS...

[Hystrix]

I couldn't agree more. He's about the only upstanding officer they have.

Well, maybe not the only, but at his rank he's the best one. Period.

[dark brandon]

If they couldn't handle Tolkeen without relying on one man (Holmes), then Lazlo will be even tougher...

... And I don't think there is a plot line in the world that could save them...

CS wouldn't initiate a war between lazlo. What would happen is quebec would go on the offencive with it's glitterboys and such. At the same time, CS would come up and hit Lazlo. Lazlo would now have a war on two fronts with two powerful enemies (even if lazlo is stronger than either of them).

I don't see CS starting a war with lazlo. BUT if there is a war, between lazlo and CS, you cannot ignore quebec. They would definatly take this chance to strike at Lazlo.

Wether federation of magic would also attack, I'm not sure. Or even sure if Lazlo would accept the help from the likes of duncson.

[Cardiac]

Yeah - I'm not convinced the CS would attack Lazlo either. At least not while there are other more agressive "threats" on the continent.

The CS leaders have spies all over the place - they HAVE to know what Lazlo is all about. Yes - there are magic users there and supernatural critters, but they're also not out to conquer anybody or go to war. They have the survival of mankind in their best intrests and the elimination of supernatural evil as well.

The same generally goes for New Lazlo - and that place is WAYYY closer to CS territory and is much weaker. The fact that NL HASN'T gotten smacked down yet points to the fact that the CS leadership is a bit more "in the know" of the politics in the various magic kingdoms surrounding them. That, coupled with the fact that Lazlo has even offered their help to the CS on a couple of occasions, provided warnings of great danger to the CS and other North American kingdoms and refused to get involved in the Tolkein conflict, might clue the CS into the fact that Lazlo isn't really that much of a threat to anyone and has adopted a "live and let live" stance regarding the kingdom (at least for the time being).

[Dustin Fireblade]

I really don't see the CS going after Lazlo or New Lazlo anytime soon. The FoM, Pecos bandits and Kingsdale are all more likely targets.
Maybe some diplomatic pressure to get Whykin and some other independent cities to join the CS, like perhaps Los Alamos. That would be a huge boost for the CS.

[Dustin Fireblade]

the problem that the cs would face against lazlo is that new lazlo & the FoM
would intervene & possibly cut off several large groups of cs troops.
I think that a cs/lazlo war would wind-up being a fiasco for prosek.

Maybe, maybe not.

The CS could simply move their troops north of the great lakes, out of Iron Heart and come down from Lazlo's northern front.

To worry the FoM, the CS could simply continue their purges mentioned in WB 12 Psyscape, simply expanded and strengthened. Just enough to keep the FoM tied up in the Magic Zone is enough.

Now if the CS would win or not thats another story, but thats how I would move my troops.

[Dustin Fireblade]

If the CS went after Lazlo they would loose and loose big. A couple of Anti-matter bombs rifted right on top of Lone Star and Chi-Town and it is all over.

They would never condone such a action of course.

[Hystrix]

I think people are missing the point of this. My point was if the CS attacked Lazlo, then Lazlo would win. Wether the CS will do it or not is another matter, but I started this to discuss what wouldhappned if the CS tried (and IMO, they would lose, especially if Holms and Bradford where taken out of the picture).

[gaby]

It will be Better if Kevin Siembieda make a Cold War between Lazlo and the CS!
Where years later the CS will Change like Russia did at the End of the U.S.S.R!

like it said in Aftermath page 46 the Emperor will bide his time,regroup,grow and tackle small targets and unsympathetic the enemies like the FofM and the Xiticix not one will ever want to help them!

I Think Lazlo must go Pro-Active and start to take on the FofM and other Non-CS Evil.

I hope Psyscape will establishing ties to lazlo and revealed soulharvest ties to the old one Nxla!
Maybe this is How the War between Lazlo and FofM start?

[Dead Boy]

If the CS and Lazlo ever came to blows in the near future, presumably after the Xiticix have been neurtralized as a threat, I think the Coalition would mop the floor with them. As things stand now in 109 PA, the CS Army is a million men strong and filled to the brim with experienced, battle hardened, professional soldiers. And of that million man army, better than half have first-hand experience fighting magic users and the supernatural. The other part has go up against the best Free Quebec had to throw at them and know how to fight a tech based army. Together they can draw on each others collective expereince and slaughter anything Lazlo can throw at them. And given that there would be no idiotic policy about leaving the city standing, there would be nothing to stand in the way of Lazlo being flattened.

People like Ranger talk smack all the time saying how easy it would be to take out Chi-Town or Lone Star with a super nuke and teleport spell, but that's just plane silly. But the fact of the matter is, the CS has been the target of countless terrorist styled attacks over the past 30+ years. If it were that easy, don't you think someone would have done just that? Odds are several have tried only to find that the fortresss cities are much more durable than one could ever imagine. From this observation alone it's a pretty safe bet that the CS can not be beaten in this manner, period. Lazlo on the other hand has not had such threats leveled at it on a regular basis. How hard would it be for the CS to pull the same trick? How hard would it be for them to smuggle in a few breifcase sized super nukes and destroy Lazlo from the inside out? What's to prevent them from sending in a fleet of stealth bombers, flying in at 110,000 feet, and hammering the city with several thousand bombs? So before you go saying how easy it would be to take down a CS city, consider how hard it would be for the Coalition to do so in kind.

[Aerv]

Actually, this particular threat was pointed out by DLDC in another post on Post War CS. Basically he forwaded the notion that Holmes is going to be mighty pissy when his band of heroes do not get Citizenship (as stated in SoT and Aftermath), and could be a very likely candidate to lead a CS Civil War.

Interesting. Well, it's possible, but I still think taking out Holmes would be more of a negitave to the CS...

I think I see it as a little of both. Keeping Holmes alive would mean he will be the champion of the under-represented. He would take his fight straight to Prosek if he had to, he feels that his men (that he dearly loves) have been cheated, and he won't stand for it. Which will cause a lot of trouble for the CS if they don't give in. And, if they do, it will mean putting Holmes to the forefront of the military.

If he is assassinated, morale will be absolutely shot. The men love him as much as he loves them, his loss would seriously, seriously hurt the CS military. OR, it would turn him in to a martyr in the eyes of the troops. They WILL scream for the blood of the one's that killed him. A million soldiers all calling for genocide of every magic user in North America won't be denied.

[Hystrix]

So before you go saying how easy it would be to take down a CS city, consider how hard it would be for the Coalition to do so in kind.

I'll take a pair of 8th level Warlocks (Fire & Air) sitting on a Nexus against anything in the CS arsenal for 400, Alex.

What is "invincible?"

I'm sorry that's not correct. The answer is "what is overconfident"

[Temporalmage]

[quote="MattBaby: Infidel] I'll take a pair of 8th level Warlocks (Fire & Air) sitting on a Nexus against anything in the CS arsenal for 400, Alex.

What is "invincible?"[/quote]

Umm, not to tear your house down or nothing...but dont' the CS employ nega-psychic's, and psi-nullifiers?? Gee while a mixed unit of airial SAMAS and heavy Robots are taking on the elementals, a small squad of the psychics can easily sneak up on em and wack em with little more than vibro-knives. Yup. Real "invincible"!! LOL!!

[Suicycho]

I think everyone has overlooked Lazlos greatest strength and ultimate weapon...They are KS posterboy for what a fuzzy, lovey, tree-hugging liberal utopia should be like, and there is NO WAY IN HELL they would lose any war, period.

[Shin Kenshiro]

By which you mean the "good guys"

And no, I don't think a Nega-Psychic would necessarily be any good against a Warlock. They might be able to mess with the spells the Warlocks try to cast, but being a Nega Psychic won't keep an Elemental from stepping on you.

It all comes down to a simple combination: River of Magma + Electro-Magnetism-- or Tornado/Hurricane.

Electromagnetism is the nightmare of anything carrying a rail gun. On a nexus, it affects an area of 120 feet and can be cast 900 feet away etc etc. It can pull 3000 pounds per level of the warlock when cast on a Nexus. It is invisible and irresistible, and requires a combined strength of 600 to get anything out of it-- even when away from a nexus (that'd be 1800 on a Nexus).

When something like that is sucking things into a River of Lava that is 30 feet long, 5 feet wide, and 5 feet deep per level of experience-- all of which are tripled while on a Nexus. It does 6d6*10 damage per melee round. And when you get sucked in, you can't get out.

And you have BOTH of those spells out in the first melee of combat. As combat continues, they can start adding effects like Wind Cusion (negating kinetic weapons), Wall of Ice (walls are always helpful), Tornado (air support? You wanted air support?), elemental weather control (again-- you wanted air support?). Impervious to Energy items (like a TW Lighting Rod) effectively makes the pair of Warlocks invincible.

How would the CS most likely stop that little idea? Ok, here we go. And remember these guys are very experienced against magic users, so please don't anyone ever say that a bunch of grunts would just charge these guys, especially on a nexus. Not being able to read doesn't mean they're stupid. I won't even talk about the Nega Psychics or Psi-Nullifiers either. Standard equiped CS troops.

While all these spells are indeed vicious, we'll even go so far as to say that the warlocks, not being retarded, have cast the spells you've spoken of as the CS gets there (they win init). Now, the CS will obviously know that they are dealing with some powerhouse mofos here, and as such would have some serious support on the way. So we'll hit the Electro-magnetism first. Chances are your warlock would only have cast it a maximum of 2 times with his elementals out there and a tornado on the backburner. A level 8 warlock is probably one of the most arrogant things on the planet, so he probably won't think he'll need much more. Electro-Magnetism pulls in any iron or iron alloy into your river of lava, good move. Most rail gun rounds will now get slung into the fire if the warlock casts the spell to be around both him and his compatriot. Hope neither of them have ANY iron on their person. However, electro-magnetism will not affect a mini-missile in any form or fashion due to stainless steel construction (if anyone thinks a military will ever produce an iron missile, please let me know, so I can inform them of the powers of rust), so a volley of mini-missiles will bypass your EM spell and hit.

Air cushion though! We'll even say you had that up in time. No 8-10 man CS squad will tangle with 2 warlocks, so you have guaranteed SAMAS and tank support. Air cushion will only stop so much MDC before failing, and 2 tanks, some SAMAS and Sky Cycles, mixed with infantry can easily put out that much firepower. So now you've spent 4 actions casting 2 spells, and the CS has spent 2. 2-3 left for the warlocks, 2-3 left for the CS.

A single Linebacker tank weighs 40 tons, and can hover up to 10 feet of the ground while moving at over 100 mph....a tornado ain't moving it at that speed. A driver could simply floor it and smoosh your air warlock (Which would send any elemental he had summoned back home), and all of a sudden, your fire warlock is in some serious poo. Also, your magic ranges are about half of what standard CS weaponry is, so they could just stand back and light the warlocks up like Roman candles. TW Lightning rods will keep your warlocks from being hurt by lasers, but it won't help your air cushions from being whiped away. Weather manipulation can only be done once per melee round, and just casting that would eliminate the warlock's last actions. A tornado can admittedly swat Sky Cycles and SAMAS from the air, but think about how many there will be. Even if there were 2 cycles, why would they fly side by side? They'd come at the warlock from different angles.

Smart soldiers will go after the warlock who is creating the defenses...drop him, and the fire warlock is a much easier target.

This is my view, and I open the floor to anyone who wishes to challenge it.

[R Ditto]

MattBaby
I agree with your tactics of teaming up an Air and Fire Warlock.
More or less anything with Iron (including many forms of steel), or even nickel or cobalt, would be effected.
I can see a situation similar to a fishermen and a huge fish. Sure, only the hook is grabbed, but it is effectively connected to the fisherman.
Even someone in ceramic armor is in deep trouble if they happen to have something ferrous on, in or under their armor or gear.
If a Tornado was also in effect, a hovering or flying vehicle/PA is the last thing I would want to be going through/near a Tornado with.

Toss in an Earth Warlock into the mix, and underground strikes become possible. Just have them use Breath Without Air and Impervious to Fire while in a tunnel the Earth Warlock is digging UNDER a CS base, then they cast E-M and RoL on the roof of the tunnel while the Earth Warlock lets loose a wall of some sort at the right time to keep the lava from getting to them.

If done right, like ambush near/on a ley line or nexus, obscuring them from the senses of Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers, and prepping Air Cushion first, they could create more havoc and have a better chance to survive.
And to think, this mayhem caused without any capability to summon major elementals.

I do agree that Wind Cushion would stop a Linebacker.

One slight problem with 8th level warlocks is they can’t summon major elementals (need to be level 9+ IIRC), and minor elementals appear to only have elemental spells of level 1-4.
Toss in 9th level plus warlocks with a major elemental buddy, and all mayhem breaks loose (major fire elemental + plasma bolt + nexus = long range death)
Back them up with other mages for other spells, and they little group can REALLY cause some havoc.


Shin Kenshiro
A nexus or ley line would make the warlocks difficult to detect, due to interference. Until stuff starts flying, they might not know if they are magic users or not, or if they were even human... a sense of unknowing can go a long way in causing things like hesitation.

They might not have anything identifying them as Warlocks. It’s like dealing with cards, you don’t know what they have in their hand until they start putting cards on the table.

The CS is experienced against magic users of Tolkeen. Magic users of Lazlo will likely be better prepared to counter CS tactics and even change their own tactics to catch the CS off guard.

You mention how iron alloys are affected by E-M, and then you say mini-missiles are safe because of stainless steel.
Steel is an iron based alloy. Stainless steel does contain roughly 75-85% iron based on stuff I found online. That and I’ve seen magnets stick to things made of steel (e.g., my refrigerator).
On a side note, Nickel and Cobalt are also affected by E-M.

The CS could be just as arrogant, and there is a chance the Warlocks might not be arrogant, and it will probably take just a half melee round for both warlocks to have tosses out E-M and RoL. That leaves the Air Warlock to cast Cushion of Air the last half of the melee, and the Fire Warlock to cast something else, like, for example, Plasma Bolt (nasty on a nexus).
If there is a minior air elemental, then Ball Lighting could be tossed out to form an energy field, perhaps right in the path of missiles, vehicles or flying PA. On a nexus, that’s a nasty field doing like 21D6 to anything that passes through it, and it covering an area of around 120ft. An Air Elemental could do one other annoying thing, creating an area of invisibility.

If the warlocks are planning to do such a plan, they will likely either be prepared and not have anything containing Iron, or they could simply cast E-M away from themselves (the range of RoL exceeds E-M’s area of effect by three times. On a nexus, that means RoL up to 360ft away, and E-M haveing a range of 900ft with a 120ft area of effect).

About the Linebacker and a Tornado. It’s not how fast it is moving that counts, it’s the fact a tornado can put a tooth pick through a tree. Also, driving a hover vehicle close to one of those things is probably not very smart to do. That and Air Cushion will likely stop the Linebacker dead in its tracks. If more than one Air Cushion is up, it makes the warlocks even harder to get at, especially if they have Impervious to Energy effects.

In a last resort, those warlocks could possibly double as heavy artillery if they manage to get effective defenses up. They do have effective offensive spells.
Minor elementals also have their uses.

About going after the warlock who is creating defenses. Might not be as easy as it sounds.
The Air Warlock could toss up Air Cushion first, if they are on/near a ley line or nexus, it would be difficult for Dog Boys/Psi-Stalkers to sense a spell being cast. If the warlocks are concealed (say a mage friend tossed Invisibility superiour on them first, or if they were well camouflaged), they could effectively ambush a CS group and already be prepared to flee or wipe out whoever they ambushed. Also, I doubt warlocks will attempt to take on more than they can handle.


arissa65
Lazlo would likely have access to other worlds, and perhaps even trade agreements with other powers on other worlds and/or in other dimensions.
Another odd source of materials are Earth Warlocks and summoners, they have their uses in the resource supply chain.

Lazlo is not Tolkeen. Tactics that would have worked against Tolkeen might actually get the CS creamed against Lazlo. Lazlo is a place of learning, and they likely will be prepared to not use the same tactics as Tolkeen, and be able to take some sort of action in order to counter CS tactics.

I do agree that it’s more training and experience that is important when it comes to soldiers, but reading does have a few advantages.
As for WWII, Don’t forget about other factors, like improvements made later in the war (later Sherman tanks having better armor and slightly bigger and higher velocity guns), air power (bombing factories and refineries and such), and maybe even late arrivals on the scene, like the US heavy tank (I think it was called the Pershing (sp?), which had a 90mm gun, 4in armor. It was a tank killer, plain and simple)

[dark brandon]

The idea of 2 Even very smart and very humble 12th level Warlocks taking out the entire CS army is absurd.

While a lazlo army of mages and stuff make more sense, 2 warlocks, no. Your not taking into concideration CS's Pychics, juicers, Psi-stalkers, doggies, things braford is cooking up. A group of 5 human CS soldiers...yeah...but Usually a group of CS soldiers are outfitted so there are as few links as possible. Dog's, samas's...

I mean, if you were a CS soldier...would you take on ANY magic user near a ley line? If your coming up to a know line/nexus, your gonna be way more on your guard, send in way more scouts (cause you pychics are null (but not dog-boy sense of smell)).

If you are ambushed, your gonna try to escape, lead the mage hopefully away from the ley line and fight them there.

[Temporalmage]

To the original point of this thread....assasination of two specific key personell....

Remember Larson? He defected from the CS...and eventually the CS High Command made him a hero. For thier own propaganda. If any high ranking officers or personell, ESPECIALLY one of those two, were ever assasinated then High Command would make them the biggest martyr's ever. Repeatedly boasting about thier achevments in life, and how they were such hero's to the CS. Probably even make a holiday out of thier birthdays or some such in rememberance.

General Holmes would be looked at as a fallen leader without peer, and it would be pointed out repetitivly that he was "THE" perfect example of CS leadership. "You too can raise yourself from the dirt of poverty and climb to the lofty ideals of a great leader like General Holmes! Ask your local recruiter how, today!!"

As for Bradford: First off I'd like to see sombody actually kill this guy! He's entrenched in the most advanced base on the planet bar none. With hundreds of psi-stalkers and litteraly thousands upon thousands of dog boys, kill cats, and other nasty stuff that can easily sniff out psychics and magic users, and even spys. Plus he's probably one of the smartest men on the planet. (I think his stated IQ is way too low for him and should be much closer to 30) But say for argument he does get assasinated. While it would be a terrible blow for the CS to say the least; the CS propaganda machine would easily spin doctor it to thier best intrests. And don't forget while he may be the driving force behind Lone Star, he ain't the only guy there. Sombody else would take up his work where he left off. So while it would cause a "bump" in the CS's progress, that bump would quickly be smoothed out by his replacement as soon as possible.

[dark brandon]

As for Bradford: First off I'd like to see sombody actually kill this guy! He's entrenched in the most advanced base on the planet bar none. With hundreds of psi-stalkers and litteraly thousands upon thousands of dog boys, kill cats, and other nasty stuff that can easily sniff out psychics and magic users, and even spys. Plus he's probably one of the smartest men on the planet. (I think his stated IQ is way too low for him and should be much closer to 30) But say for argument he does get assasinated. While it would be a terrible blow for the CS to say the least; the CS propaganda machine would easily spin doctor it to thier best intrests. And don't forget while he may be the driving force behind Lone Star, he ain't the only guy there. Sombody else would take up his work where he left off. So while it would cause a "bump" in the CS's progress, that bump would quickly be smoothed out by his replacement as soon as possible.

Besides, wasn't one of the dr. trying to clone him? Even if they do end up killing him, he'd be right back on the job possibly.

[Temporalmage]

to the side topic of the uber warlocks......

CS wins easy. Send a platoon of tanks, robots, SAMAS in as I stated earlier. Then send in a psi-nulifier/ nega psycic team in around the rear. While the mages are watching the devistation that their summoned elementals are causing, and they do have to watch as they need to direct the elementals in thier actions, the psycics easily walk through what ever protective spells the mages have up and plant a vibro knife in the backs of their heads.

End result. Several dead CS troops. 10's of Millions of credits of lost materials, including totally destroyed robots/ power armor, tanks, ect. And a few dead mages that have spent a lifetime of learning to get to the level they were at when they were killed by two first level psycics.

[glitterboy2098]

However, electro-magnetism will not affect a mini-missile in any form or fashion due to stainless steel construction (if anyone thinks a military will ever produce an iron missile, please let me know, so I can inform them of the powers of rust), so a volley of mini-missiles will bypass your EM spell and hit.

true, EM will not re-direct a Missile, but it will Skrag any electronics in said missile, so it still works. and if the missile is "hardened", remember it just means it takes more EM to mess it up. any EM feild able to pull metal that far is more than enough to nuke the electronics of even a hardened system. and by the way, stainless steel is affected by magnitism. Steel is just iron in a crystilline matrix. electro-magnetic feilds effect substances at the Atomic level, so the iron in the steel is still influenced. steel is less magnetic than iron, due to the other elements involved in the matrix, but it is still magnetic.

now if the casing was made of copper or brass, perhaps, but what are the odds any military would do that? and you'd still have the electronics issue.

As for Bradford: First off I'd like to see sombody actually kill this guy! He's entrenched in the most advanced base on the planet bar none. With hundreds of psi-stalkers and litteraly thousands upon thousands of dog boys, kill cats, and other nasty stuff that can easily sniff out psychics and magic users, and even spys. Plus he's probably one of the smartest men on the planet. (I think his stated IQ is way too low for him and should be much closer to 30) But say for argument he does get assasinated. While it would be a terrible blow for the CS to say the least; the CS propaganda machine would easily spin doctor it to thier best intrests. And don't forget while he may be the driving force behind Lone Star, he ain't the only guy there. Sombody else would take up his work where he left off. So while it would cause a "bump" in the CS's progress, that bump would quickly be smoothed out by his replacement as soon as possible.

thats why i assume bradford is up to something. he has all those resources and troops, and is willing to be a pawn of the proseks? bull. personally i think when the time is right he'll use that army of mutant animals to succed from the CS, and create his own little empire.

[Shin Kenshiro]

thats why i assume bradford is up to something. he has all those resources and troops, and is willing to be a pawn of the proseks? bull. personally i think when the time is right he'll use that army of mutant animals to succed from the CS, and create his own little empire.

He could try, but the fury unleashed by the CS on Lone Star would be unbelievable. And the troops would never go for it. All the leaders stated in the NPC section of Lone Star are unfailingly loyal to the CS first. Even if Bradford was toying with the loyalty training of the regular dog boys, the Coalition forces present are already immense, and they'd quickly turn their guns on the "new" animals and as for Bradford...he could hide inside the Lone Star complex for some time, but the only people who are actually loyal to Bradford himself are a few lunatic scientists and some mutant animals. And don't forget the doctor who is being forced to work for Bradford because of the bomb in his head. It says he'll do anything possible to stop Bradford, and you can bet that would include warning the CS ahead of time the instant he caught wind of a scheme like that. Lone Star ain't Mindwerks....in the CS, you always have someone to answer to. The cost would be huge yes, but Lone Star would fall and Bradford would be described by Coalition propaganda as either someone who was possessed by demons/magic or was killed and replaced by a shape-changing magic user.

[Shin Kenshiro]

And when was the last time you saw anyone redeploy a ley line?

The CS has been around for a long time, and its leaders have been living and dying for longer than Lazlo has been learning magic. Remember, Lazlo was started by a rifted Victor Lazlo.

Upstart punks? 56 million people and the entire American Midwest isn't an upstart punk. How large is Lazlo? I'm not saying Lazlo's weak, but you are seriously underestimating the power and tenacity of the CS.

[grandmaster z0b]

Lazlo Vs. CS is virtually a moot point. There has been several revisions of the CS military, both it's attitudes, methods and instruments of war. There has been nothing about Lazlo, which is definately KS's little baby. I mean it's called Lazlo KS's favorite dude. He gets Rifted from BTS to Rifts Earth for heavens sake! And as someone pointed out before, if there was a war KS would never let his darling Lazlo lose. If/when the Lazlo book comes out, trust me it will be filled with the most impregnable magic defences imaginable.

No offence to anyone but I think I'm getting a little tired of the "warlocks vs. CS" argument, it always seems to be one side assuming that 5 high-level warlocks could take out an entire army, and the other that an overwhelming show of force with a few psi-nullifiers will always win.

Niether are really realistic nor rationally thought out. Whilst warlocks do have the capacity, why would they launch themselves at the enemy without their own anti-tech support? Why would the CS hurl themselves full frontal at an enemy without knowing their capabilities, and if they did know why would they attack like that.

Anyway GO LAZLO!!

[grandmaster z0b]

EDIT : whooooops double post

[grandmaster z0b]

The CS has been around for a long time, and its leaders have been living and dying for longer than Lazlo has been learning magic. Remember, Lazlo was started by a rifted Victor Lazlo.

Huh? To my knowledge Lazlo was not started by a rifted Victor Lazlo but named after him.

Upstart punks? 56 million people and the entire American Midwest isn't an upstart punk. How large is Lazlo? I'm not saying Lazlo's weak, but you are seriously underestimating the power and tenacity of the CS.

Ummm without any data on Lazlo I don't know how your estimating anything. Remember that the only things we actually know about Lazlo really are that they have been there longer than Tolkeen and they are bigger and generally more powerful.

[Borast]

What's to prevent them from sending in a fleet of stealth bombers, flying in at 110,000 feet, and hammering the city with several thousand bombs?

The fact that a bomber can't fly that high?

When something like that is sucking things into a River of Lava that is 30 feet long, 5 feet wide, and 5 feet deep per level of experience-- all of which are tripled while on a Nexus. It does 6d6*10 damage per melee round. And when you get sucked in, you can't get out.

Hmmm...it's been downgraded since PFRPG then. In PF, it automatically kills all "normals" exposed...

As for an idea...take the "Purify Ingredient" Chi spell from Mystic China, and make it an area of effect spell. Turn all the MDC ceramics in the area of effect into SDC pottery... You can then start taking out entire companies with a single L-20 pulse rifle!

You could also create overlapping areas of Life Drain. (And multiple ranks of them, followed by some kinetic/explosive attacks)
OR, simply hire a couple of dozen Diabolists to liberally "mine" the field with Death Wards combined with Area of Effect and Power. I have a 6th level Diablist that with this ward phrase (Inflict + Area of Effect + Death + Power), and it does 12D6 direct to everone's HPs across an 80' diameter area... Or, as an option, even though it affects SDC first - Burning Agony... 12D6 damage PER melee in the same 80' area, with a 12 minute duration (576D6 total damage) The BA one has the bonus of the victims loose all combat bonuses, initiative (if they had it), 3/4 of their actions, and have a skill penalty that means unless they roll a natural 01, they won't be able to do anything. Their natural speed attribute is also reduced on the order of 96%

In anycase...Lazlo (just) wins...Quebec sits on the sidelines, and steps-in when/where they can to swing the victory over to the winning side (most likely Lazlo). Besides, the rulers of FQ, despite being Human Supremacists, and anti-magic, have nothing against Lazlo - they are "good neighbours." On the other hand, if the CS were to win, Quebec knows they would see a repeat of "recent events" within 2-5 years after the CS rebuilds and re-arms. The CS are "bad neighbours."


Oh, and as to the notion of using heavy Naval Bombardment against Lazlo...
Forget it. Water Elementals are invisible in water, (likely) all but undetectable on SONAR, and can rip a ship apart in mere minutes... Plus, there are the other assorted Supernaturals that either don't need to breathe, can breathe underwater, or hold their breath for hours at a time. They can "sneak-up" on the ships. Easiest way to destroy a ship - raise it either from one (central) point, or from both ends - it'll snap in half without ANY effort at all!


As a final note - given that there are undoubtedly various priests of assorted gods in Lazlo, there is a distinct possiblity of divine intervention...


On the flip side, if Lazlo (or especially New Lazlo) moved against the Coalition...
Lazlo...wasn't that the name of that thing that did that other thing last year? (gone...)

[R Ditto]

About warlocks and taking out Bradford.
Use Earth Warlocks, more Earth Warlocks, a lot of Earth Elementals, a few psychics and mages, other forces, and perhaps even Stone Masters and other warlocks.... Starting a LONG ways away, imitate stuff from Iwo Jima (WWII) and Vietnam... dig tunnels, lots of them. Deep tunnels, ones so deep (say 2000+ ft) that dog boys and psi-stalkers won't be able to sense that there is something moving around underground.

Approach the Lone Star Complex from deep underground, and proceed to really scare the heck out of them when they sense a LOT of magical and supernatural activity approaching from UNDER the Lone Star Complex. Since Bradford's likely hiding place is near the bottom of the Lone Star Complex, he could have a problem.

If lucky and done right (and done by approaching from several angles at once), a whole slew of Rivers of Lava and Earth Quakes (from earth warlocks and greater earth elementals) will rip right through the walls, leading right into the Lone Star Complex. If CS borgs, robots and PA troopers start swarming in to stop the attackers, a pair of greater Earth Elementals ahead of the main group lets loose, one with River of Lava, the other with Magnetism, both on the same location.

After sufficient mayhem is caused, multiple teams enter the complex from different directions (starting at the bottom and working up). The two main objectives would be A) locate and deal with Bradford and/or other CS high level scientists, and B), cause as much damage to industrial/manufacturing/scientific facilities as possible. Then they would simply withdraw, with a mob of lesser earth elementals waiting in the tunnels, they would toss up walls and collapse tunnels to cover the retreat of the forces.
Oh, to really cause trouble, a few of them could be instructed to cheer out battle cries of victory for the FoM, or revenge for Tolkeen, if they get engaged by CS forces.

It has a good chance of working, the only problem would be that Lazlo likely wouldn't actually do something like that unless they absolutely had to, but I can see them doing such a thing in an attempt to sabotage the Lone Star Complexes manufacturing/production facilities, or even sabotaging other CS facilities, effectively reducing the CS's ability to wage war.

On a side note, have a few greater earth elementals and a mess of lesser earth elementals have invisibility superior cast on them, and see if it prevents them from being detected by psi-stalkers and dog boys on the final approach of digging tunnels to the base of the Lone Star Complex or any other surface or underground facility.

On final side notes,
Tolkeen was stupid, and Lazlo possibly has elemental heavy hitters for defense (or even offense).

Place a few greater fire elementals on a nexus. Instant mega-death snipers. Plasma Bolt, with the greater elementals effectiveness with elemental fire magic, and the nexus, creates mayhem.
Range, 30,000ft , 18D6 MD, 9 attacks per melee , lasts for 30 melees per casting. costs 60 ppe per casting, and the elemental has 300-1800 ppe.

Place a few greater Air Elementals on a nexus also.
You get long range capacity rivaling a GB! 300,000 ft range, 6D4x10+90 MD (150-330 MD per blast!), +6 per strike. Costs 40 P.P.E. per casting (elemental has 400-2400 ppe), which a greater air elemental can do 6 per melee.
This allows a greater Air Elemental, on a Nexus, to act as an effective anti-aircraft weapon with a range of 56 miles!
Due to damage done, when knock down rules are applied, flying PA have a HUGE problem (assuming some of the Sams don't get popped outright)

I just hope no one is able to use major elementals in the creation and charging of TW weapons. I get nervous thinking of a TW plasma gun that has been charged with a plasma bolt from a major fire elemental, or a TW disposable rocket launcher charged with Wind Blast from a major air elemental. It would give a magic power's soldiers weapons with ranges rivaling CS vehicle weapons!

[Kaleb]

Well, from what I have read I think that at this time a battle between Lazlo and the CS would not happen for a very long time and even if it did it would more of a Cold War thing as someone stated earlier. I think that after Tolkeen the CS will think twice before just attacking another community that relies heavily on Magic, even with all of their newly gained experience.

Now, if full-scale war did break out between Lazlo and the CS I don't know that either force would win. Sure the CS has the numbers but if a group of mages can harness the power of a Rift to power a city then why can't they curn out lots of powerful magical weapons/items to fight their enemies. Additionally, their military is probably more organized than the CS even realizes. But even with these advantages the CS has lots of experience, high technology, troops, so personally, I think that it would end up being a stalemate.

[jesse04]

They felt that in doing so would condemn their army and country to death..

that's a philosophic choice, not a military one.

If they cannot win alongside a ridiculously overpowered munchkins dream army that Tolkeens was.

Certainly not more ridiculous than the sudden brand new army of the CS.

Oh yeah, I forgot the whole thing about the CS now possesing the most experienced anti magic fighting force on the planet.

1) Perhaps Lazlo has got differents tactics.
2) These guys who can't even read are a bit too effective for my taste.
Anyway, before Lazlo, I fear the Xiticix will be the next oponent.

[Hystrix]

They felt that in doing so would condemn their army and country to death..

that's a philosophic choice, not a military one.

Actually that IS a military choice. They measured the might of thier army against the CS and didn't think they could win...

Certainly not more ridiculous than the sudden brand new army of the CS.

Hmm, yes Tolkeen was much more overpowered than they should have been. The Iorn Juggernauts (which numbered into trhe 10s of thousands!) where a bit over done.

1) Perhaps Lazlo has got differents tactics.

<sigh> Come on. "Different tactics"? You mean like "don't die."

2) These guys who can't even read are a bit too effective for my taste.

Um, yeah. Look Karl Prozek is not illiterate. Niether is Bradford, or the other heads of the States. Niether are the generals. Niether are the Tech Officers, or Military Specialists. Stop acting like EVERY member of the CS is illiterate, cause they arn't. You can be an effective grunt, or PA pilot with out knowing how to read.

BTW, in the Rifts Main Book it states that 70% of mages can't read... just so you know...

Anyway, before Lazlo, I fear the Xiticix will be the next oponent.

I will agree with you on this...

[jesse04]

Actually that IS a military choice. They measured the might of thier army against the CS and didn't think they could win...

Perhaps you're wrong on that, I'm not really a fan of Lazlo and I must have miss it.
Anyway, Tolkeen choose to fight even if they were aware that that war would bring death and devastation at a very high scale.
Lazlo is speaking of give up the fight to avoid that. so it's a philosophical choice.

<sigh> Come on. "Different tactics"? You mean like "don't die.".

no, differents tactics like differents tactics.
According to you, since both the USAF and the Lituanian AF have got planes, they must use the same tactics ?

Um, yeah. Look Karl Prozek is not illiterate. Neither is Bradford, or the other heads of the States. Niether are the generals. Niether are the Tech Officers, or Military Specialists. Stop acting like EVERY member of the CS is illiterate, cause they arn't. You can be an effective grunt, or PA pilot with out knowing how to read. .

Of course, I'm not talking of emperor Prozek but the normal grunt.
PA pilot illiterate ? So, how can they learn to pilot ?

BTW, in the Rifts Main Book it states that 70% of mages can't read... just so you know....

YEs, I know that strange idea can rise in kevins' mind.

[Hystrix]

Perhaps you're wrong on that, I'm not really a fan of Lazlo and I must have miss it.
Anyway, Tolkeen choose to fight even if they were aware that that war would bring death and devastation at a very high scale.
Lazlo is speaking of give up the fight to avoid that. so it's a philosophical choice.

Wow. That's still a military decision. If I desice not to attack the 6'4" 240 lbs. Black Belt in Aikodo, it isn't a philasophical choice. It's because I don't want my rear end handed to me.

no, differents tactics like differents tactics.
According to you, since both the USAF and the Lituanian AF have got planes, they must use the same tactics ?

I never said that. However, post a different tactic. It isn't enough to say "They use a different tactic."

Of course, I'm not talking of emperor Prozek but the normal grunt.
PA pilot illiterate ? So, how can they learn to pilot ?

People who can't read can drive. They are just taught how to use the system. When you step outside your little box, and realize the Rifts is NOT our modern day world, you see how people can overcome alot of things... even illiteracy.

YEs, I know that strange idea can rise in kevins' mind.

No you don't. That's canon, my friend. You don't just wave it off with a magic wand. It's still there. If illiterate mages can learn magic, then illiterate techies can pilot PA and fire guns...

[jesse04]

Wow. That's still a military decision. If I desice not to attack the 6'4" 240 lbs. Black Belt in Aikodo, it isn't a philasophical choice. It's because I don't want my rear end handed to me.

The problem is that you've got a 6'4" 240lbs gorilla and a 6'3" 230lbs gorilla.
If they fight, others creatures will suffer of that fight.
The 6'3" gorilla don't want to fight.
Philosophical decision.

I never said that. However, post a different tactic. It isn't enough to say "They use a different tactic."

I'm not a Rifts writer.
BTW if I remember correctlu, couldn't Lazlo have several gods on their side ?
I remind a Babylonian god of weather in Pantheons of megaverse.
Can't you think they can set different tactics with differents players ?

People who can't read can drive. They are just taught how to use the system. When you step outside your little box, and realize the Rifts is NOT our modern day world, you see how people can overcome alot of things... even illiteracy.

People can drive, can they pilot something ?
How can they know if they have some power in engine if they don't know their speed, altitudes and so on ?
Sorry, I can't imagine a RPG totally out of reality.

No you don't. That's canon, my friend. You don't just wave it off with a magic wand. It's still there. If illiterate mages can learn magic, then illiterate techies can pilot PA and fire guns...

According to what I understand, for Mr Sembiada, you can learn spells and all without reading anything, right.
Mme Rowling would disagree but it's not really a problem for me.

Now, pilots who spend years of hard studies without knowing how to read ?
Who can't have Head Up Display with informations ?
With quite a good part of the brain without correct connections ?

[jesse04]

If the CS and Lazlo ever came to blows in the near future, presumably after the Xiticix have been neurtralized as a threat

Before or after kicking splynny out of the planet and crushing all civilisations of Phase world ?

As things stand now in 109 PA, the CS Army is a million men strong and filled to the brim with experienced, battle hardened, professional soldiers.

... and tired soldiers.

The other part has go up against the best Free Quebec had to throw at them and know how to fight a tech based army.

Isn't a real argument, they were suppose to know that already.

Together they can draw on each others collective expereince and slaughter anything Lazlo can throw at them. And given that there would be no idiotic policy about leaving the city standing, there would be nothing to stand in the way of Lazlo being flattened.

In fact, war is simple, if you want to win, you only have to crush your ennemy, is it that ?

People like Ranger talk smack all the time saying how easy it would be to take out Chi-Town or Lone Star with a super nuke and teleport spell, but that's just plane silly. But the fact of the matter is, the CS has been the target of countless terrorist styled attacks over the past 30+ years. If it were that easy, don't you think someone would have done just that?

Did Mr Sembiada clearly said that it has been tried in the past ?
Perhaps that ppl who wanted to did that couldn't do it and those who could do it, didn't want to do it.

Odds are several have tried only to find that the fortresss cities are much more durable than one could ever imagine. From this observation alone it's a pretty safe bet that the CS can not be beaten in this manner, period.

What kind of logic is that ?
It was pretty safe that earth was flat or anything heavier than air couldn't fly.

Lazlo on the other hand has not had such threats leveled at it on a regular basis.

Before the attack of the FoM in 12 P.A, the same could be said about the CS.

How hard would it be for them to smuggle in a few breifcase sized super nukes and destroy Lazlo from the inside out?

Because of psykers ?

What's to prevent them from sending in a fleet of stealth bombers, flying in at 110,000 feet, and hammering the city with several thousand bombs?

1) wouldn't these bombers be engaged by sub orbital defenses ?
2) Even then, I fear that these bombs would met the same fate than nukes sended by the CS over Tolkeen, nukes swallowed by mini-rifts.

[Hystrix]

This apparently comes down to what you wanna beilive...

The problem is that you've got a 6'4" 240lbs gorilla and a 6'3" 230lbs gorilla.
If they fight, others creatures will suffer of that fight.
The 6'3" gorilla don't want to fight.
Philosophical decision.

What gorilla? I'm talking about me. If I choose not to fight you could call it a philosopical dicision, but really it's just that I don't wanna get hurt.

I'm not a Rifts writer.
BTW if I remember correctlu, couldn't Lazlo have several gods on their side ?
I remind a Babylonian god of weather in Pantheons of megaverse.

They could, but I find that unlikely. However, this is a better answer than "different tactics."

Can't you think they can set different tactics with differents players ?

I don't really know what you mean by this

People can drive, can they pilot something ?
How can they know if they have some power in engine if they don't know their speed, altitudes and so on ?

You can still Read Sensory Equipment. The Zentreadi in Robotech mostly cant read, but can pilot very simple Mecha and Read Sensory Equipment. Just because you can't read Time Magazine or Mobey Dick dosn't mean you can't look at a display. Remember most things could be represented by symbols, and numbers. My three year old daughter can't read, but she recognizes pictures and can count.

Sorry, I can't imagine a RPG totally out of reality.

I'm not going outside of reality...

According to what I understand, for Mr Sembiada, you can learn spells and all without reading anything, right.
Mme Rowling would disagree but it's not really a problem for me.

You just learn the spells. Illiteracy is supposed to be a problem Worldwide in Rifts Earth not just to the CS.

Now, pilots who spend years of hard studies without knowing how to read ?
Who can't have Head Up Display with informations ?With quite a good part of the brain without correct connections ?

Again Read Sensory Equipment dosn't require full Literacy. Besides even people who aren't literate can pick out a few words, they just couldn't read a whole sentance or paragraph on their own. Going back to my daughter as an example, she recognizes books and pictures and can even quote the story by herself if we've read it to her enough. A PA pilot would learn by repitition the same way a mage would. They just could read much outside of there PA skills...

[Vrykolas2k]

I think Lazlo would win... more allies, and they'd have learned from Tolkeen's... "mistakes" {sigh}. Plus, they're not as shell-shocked... sure the ones coming back from fighting the Xiticix could use some R&R, but face it, killing bugs and hearing the screams of children are two entirely different things...

[Hystrix]

I think Lazlo would win... more allies, and they'd have learned from Tolkeen's... "mistakes" {sigh}. Plus, they're not as shell-shocked... sure the ones coming back from fighting the Xiticix could use some R&R, but face it, killing bugs and hearing the screams of children are two entirely different things...

Who are Lazlo's allies?

[Vrykolas2k]

I think Lazlo would win... more allies, and they'd have learned from Tolkeen's... "mistakes" {sigh}. Plus, they're not as shell-shocked... sure the ones coming back from fighting the Xiticix could use some R&R, but face it, killing bugs and hearing the screams of children are two entirely different things...

Who are Lazlo's allies?

Deities, independant kingdoms, I daresay The Three would do something as well {since they'd be next on the list}, there'd be alot more juicers and other independants {and merc companies} sympathetic to Lazlo, and I think Sir Coake would prolly say it was okay for his legion to aid Lazlo... they, after all, do not for the most part truck with demons, and they have few if any aggressive tendancies. Then there are the Tolkeen survivors who ended up there, many of whom would definately want pay-back... New lazlo would probably do some sort of attack on Chi-Town {and if i were writing it, it would be well planned and the sort of thing Tolkeen should have done}.

[jesse04]

What gorilla? I'm talking about me.

Oups, sorry, I'm so used to read the expression XXX lbs gorilla on msg boards.

I don't really know what you mean by this

That's about the gods who are likely to side with Lazlo.
In conversion book two, page 42 Enki 15 000 MDC, 8000 PPE, 20th ley line walker .... HAve fun.

You can still Read Sensory Equipment. The Zentreadi in Robotech mostly cant read, but can pilot very simple Mecha and Read Sensory Equipment. Just because you can't read Time Magazine or Mobey Dick dosn't mean you can't look at a display.

We're talking of pilots

Again Read Sensory Equipment dosn't require full Literacy. Besides even people who aren't literate can pick out a few words, they just couldn't read a whole sentance or paragraph on their own. A PA pilot would learn by repitition the same way a mage would. They just could read much outside of there PA skills...

Ever heard of "cognitive patterns" ?
No sorry, pilots have to read books and so much other thanks that point is pointless.
For me, PA pilots can read.
And would it be a revolution for the global background ?

[Svartalf]

Now, pilots who spend years of hard studies without knowing how to read ?
Who can't have Head Up Display with informations ?
With quite a good part of the brain without correct connections ?

Begging pardon for intervening Hystrix

The problem is that you've got a 6'4" 240lbs gorilla and a 6'3" 230lbs gorilla.
If they fight, others creatures will suffer of that fight.
The 6'3" gorilla don't want to fight.
Philosophical decision.

still military decision... based on philosophical *as well as* military factors, but still military in so far as it implies consequences on the use, or in that case refusal to use, military force.
I *do* think that if Lazlo had been 100% certain of being able to defeat the CS if they allied with Tolkeen, they would have entered the war, as continuation of the CS in itself means more death and suffering for more people than a victorious, reasonably quick war would have.

I'm not a Rifts writer.
BTW if I remember correctlu, couldn't Lazlo have several gods on their side ?
I remind a Babylonian god of weather in Pantheons of megaverse.
Can't you think they can set different tactics with differents players ?

cop out... you may assume that *they* would get some good ideas... but at least admit that you can't have them, don't hide behind the fact that it's not your job. if nobody on this board can come up with them bright ideas to let the valiant little tailor vanquish the ugly giant... odds are they might not either
well... personnally I'm not so sure the CS is that adept at countering magic... they still won the war through overwhelming force and firepower, not necessarily thanks to tactical efficiency.
and if a powerhouse like Tolkeen could not get any gods to fight on their side, why would Lazlo be more lucky in that department?
and which god? a quick check through PoM has yielded nothing, and the thing is that actually *most* babylonian gods are involved with the weather :
Anu: ruled the sky, from the clouds up
Enlil : is the wind
Enki/Ea : is a god of the waters, including rain
Marduk : had agricultural functions and his spear and net are lightning and the winds[

quote]According to what I understand, for Mr Sembiada, you can learn spells and all without reading anything, right.
Mme Rowling would disagree but it's not really a problem for me.
Now, pilots who spend years of hard studies without knowing how to read ?
Who can't have Head Up Display with informations ? [/quote]
well... essentially, you can learn magic through raw talent and intuition (like a mystic), or by rote, without needing to be able to read, or even to know much theory and having to study from books. Sure, being able to study from books is a big help, but not necessary.
and the same applies to piloting : you can learn to read the numbers on the instruments (RPA pilots actually do : skill Read Sensory Instruments) and manoeuver the machine without being able to rad the instruction manual.

[dark brandon]

To sum it up, in Lazlos own words, they would not win under any circumstances.

If lazlo couldn't win with tolkeen on the side, they probably wouldn't stand a chance against them alone. The main reason I think is most likely the people at lazlo know how wars on multi-fronts go. And if lazlo didn't think they could beat CS with the CS on a Three front war (quebec, tolkeen and lazlo and perhaps even FOM making it a 4 front war), then they couldn't stand a chance any more than Tolkeen did alone. Especially now with Quebec allies with CS and now that CS has an unlimited (I forget the exact wording) trade agreement with NGR. That and I really do think that quebec would attack lazlo especially if CS heads the attack.

Cloake probably would'nt allow his knights to help lazlo any more than he wanted Tolkeen. Tolkeen use to be a good state. But the threat of war turned them to the "dark side" where we learned that Emperer Prosek is king creeds father! (NOOOOOO!!!!). Lazlo would eventually do the same. War is hell and it brings out the worst in all people. He would offer his assistance to refugees like before, but demand his knights stay out of it directly.

So, in short, lazlos best chance at beating CS has been passed up. With tolkeen gone, and you can bet FoM won't be of any help (since lazlo isn't a member of FoM), and with the war in quebec over CS would be able to focus all their power onto one front. (Though, afterwords, I think FoM would probably strike, and would have the best chance to get CS than the other groups).

[jesse04]

I *do* think that if Lazlo had been 100% certain of being able to defeat the CS if they allied with Tolkeen, they would have entered the war, as continuation of the CS in itself means more death and suffering for more people than a victorious, reasonably quick war would have..

Please
1) I can't see a single second how the CS would have been able to sustain a war on two fronts vs Tolkeen AND Lazlo (and even more rogue elements from FoM)
2) Lazlo wasn't pleased of the militarisation of tolkeen so even if Lazlo was sure of a potential victory, they choose to step aside.

cop out... you may assume that *they* would get some good ideas... but at least admit that you can't have them, don't hide behind the fact that it's not your job..

Man, I thought it was a role playing game.
Anyway, my ideas won't have any influence on Kevin's mind, so I don't really understand what you ask.

and if a powerhouse like Tolkeen could not get any gods to fight on their side, why would Lazlo be more lucky in that department?

For so obvious reason that I don't know if I must write them here.

and which god? a quick check through PoM has yielded nothing, and the thing is that actually *most* babylonian gods are involved with the weather :
Anu: ruled the sky, from the clouds up
Enlil : is the wind
Enki/Ea : is a god of the waters, including rain
Marduk : had agricultural functions and his spear and net are lightning and the winds

See

In conversion book two, page 42 Enki 15 000 MDC, 8000 PPE, 20th ley line walker .

and the same applies to piloting : you can learn to read the numbers on the instruments (RPA pilots actually do : skill Read Sensory Instruments) and manoeuver the machine without being able to rad the instruction manual.

[dark brandon]

Please
1) I can't see a single second how the CS would have been able to sustain a war on two fronts vs Tolkeen AND Lazlo (and even more rogue elements from FoM)
2) Lazlo wasn't pleased of the militarisation of tolkeen so even if Lazlo was sure of a potential victory, they choose to step aside.

It would have been a three front war. You forgot at the time they were fighting quebec as well.

Though, if lazlo thought that they couldn't win with cs on a three front war, it makes you think of how truely powerful CS is...or how bad lazlo's military leaders are.

[Hystrix]

Ever heard of "cognitive patterns" ?
No sorry, pilots have to read books and so much other thanks that point is pointless.
For me, PA pilots can read.
And would it be a revolution for the global background ?

Uh, I'm sorry, that is not pointless. THere are countless example in other games/books where pilots can't read, but can pilot. Robotech is a great example. The Zentreadi can't read. Neither can the lower level bioroids or invid. Also, have you EVER been inside a SAMAS? No? Well then maybe you arn't aware of how simple/complicated the controls are? Then maybe you have NO IDEA what the qualifications are. I suspect if the pilots can't read there are methods of teaching them how to pilot. Also, have you ever met a PA pilot in real life? No? Well again, you have NO basis other than just saying "pilots have to read. period." Nice try come back again.