True Atlantean / Human child

[Pax Concord]

Would the child of a True Atlantean and Human union have the traits of the Atlantean parent or the human parent?

[Shadow Wyrm]

The Rift's novels established that regular human and True Atlanteans can't have children.

If they could the child would probibly have better than averge attributes and some of the TA other abilities.

[Shadow Wyrm]

What Rifts novel says that and where.

I would say yes they can have children, and depending on where the child is raised, it may even beconsidered a True Atlantean.

I do not know which rift's novel exactly but I think it's the third. It's part of an internal monologe of the True Atlantean TW,when he is thinking about his relationship with the mystic.

[Mack]

What Rifts novel says that and where.

I would say yes they can have children, and depending on where the child is raised, it may even beconsidered a True Atlantean.

I do not know which rift's novel exactly but I think it's the third. It's part of an internal monologe of the True Atlantean TW,when he is thinking about his relationship with the mystic.

I don't recall that TW being True Atlantean.

[Tinker Dragoon]

The novels and Rifter fiction have no bearing on nor relevance to the game rules. In the Rifts Conversion book it is stated however in no uncertain terms that hybridization between character races is impossible in the Megaverse (certain Palladium Fantasy Half-Orcs notwithstanding ).

The problem here is that true atlanteans are supposed to actually be humans altered by their extensive travels in other dimensions. I personally think that the racial differences between humans and atlanteans are a result of the latter's culture and exposure to interdimensional energies, rather than genetics. Thus, humans and atlanteans would be able to interbreed, and their offspring will be either humans or atlanteans depending on which culture they are brought up in.

[Daniel Stoker]

Considering that the Amazon atlanteans can have children with normal humans I'd say that there shouldn't be a problem for the rest of them having children with humans.



Daniel Stoker

[Tinker Dragoon]

And of course there are the humans of Seeron in Skraypers that are completely human but may or may not be descended from atlanteans.

[Mack]

Correct but the Mystic beleaves that her powers come from her virginity and in book 3 she gives it up when they are getting married.

My memory must be going. I thought they eventually agreed to a sexless marriage.

[Shaved Monkey]

Considering that the Amazon atlanteans can have children with normal humans I'd say that there shouldn't be a problem for the rest of them having children with humans.



Daniel Stoker

If you're referring to the Amazon RCC, they are not Atlanteans, but power-imbued humans.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Correct but the Mystic beleaves that her powers come from her virginity and in book 3 she gives it up when they are getting married.

She did not believe that her powers came from heer virginity. She believed her powers came from her purity, so before her and Van (the TA TW) could consimate their relationship they had to get married.

[The Artist Formerly]

I guess I should buy these novels... even though they're ruined

Don't. Save your money and your sanity. They are not a good read, and make no sense.

[Mack]

I guess I should buy these novels... even though they're ruined

Don't. Save your money and your sanity. They are not a good read, and make no sense.

What? You don't like to "look at your cyber-knight on the wall" and reflect?

[Nekira Sudacne]

No harm ever came out of letting a player have an inch, just don't give him (or her) a mile.

I wanna play a full size Zentradi Vampire.

[Devjannz]

No harm ever came out of letting a player have an inch, just don't give him (or her) a mile.

I wanna play a full size Zentradi Vampire.

Oww!! That would be nasty.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No harm ever came out of letting a player have an inch, just don't give him (or her) a mile.

I wanna play a full size Zentradi Vampire.

Oww!! That would be nasty.

well, it says in all the books on them that Zentradi are biologically identical to humans just a bunch bigger.

[Pax Concord]

Oh, poop! I remembered finding info on ogre/human hybrids and amazon/human hybrids, so I figured info on atlantean/human hybrids must be in one of the books! Oh well. I guess I'll just wing it.

[Esckey]

It's not in any book I've read. The coversion book states that inter racial breeding is impossible................but this is PB so they contradict themselfs often. Ample proof of contradiction with this one, what with half orcs, half orges and so forth.


I would probably say yes to the idea simply because, what's so great about being the child of an atlantean and a human? You can't get the best of both worlds simply because the atlantean is already superior to the human.

[Pax Concord]

I'm GMing, and I wanted one of the Atlantean characters to have a kid with a human woman. So I was wondering if he'd have to take the kid and have his clan give him the Marks of Heritage and stuff.
The whole thing with Ogres is that they are not a differant species from humans, just a subspecies: Homo sapiens grossus to our Homo sapiens sapiens.

[Pax Concord]

Yeah, I guess I can just go with whatever's dramatically appropriate. Oh, and in the Amazon description is says that Amazons can successfully mate with humans, True Atlanteans, and ogres, so that confirms that they are all of a species.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Yeah, I guess I can just go with whatever's dramatically appropriate. Oh, and in the Amazon description is says that Amazons can successfully mate with humans, True Atlanteans, and ogres, so that confirms that they are all of a species.

No, it indicates that they are closely related species within a single genus

[Pax Concord]

Nothing says that the offspring are sterile.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Nothing says that the offspring are sterile.

Never said anything to the contrary. Taxonomically speaking however I believe the aforementioned species would be different members of the genus homo rather than several subspecies of homo sapiens (ogres particularly).

And for the record, not all hybrids between separate species are sterile. Some are sterile, some are fertile, and in some one gender is sterile while the other is fertile.

[The Plague]

The crossbreeding of Ogres and Humans is always in the way of a Human female and an Ogre male resulting in an Ogre. Ogre females tend to be infertile allot, that's why the male ogres rape human women to keep their population up. So there is no half ogre, just pure ogres

[Pax Concord]

Never said anything to the contrary. Taxonomically speaking however I believe the aforementioned species would be different members of the genus homo rather than several subspecies of homo sapiens (ogres particularly).

I disagree, but the difference is entirely academic. Nature frequently defies taxonomy. It seems to me that the fact that ogres regularly interbreed with humans puts them in the same species. The same could be said for Amazons.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Nature frequently defies taxonomy.

Care to cite an example of this?

It seems to me that the fact that ogres regularly interbreed with humans puts them in the same species. The same could be said for Amazons.

Interfertility does not define a species. Anatomical and genetic characteristics do.

The distinctions between humans and ogres are even more pronounced than those between modern man and neanderthals (notably the debate still rages on whether neanderthals were a distinct species [homo neanderthalensis] or a subspecies of human [homo sapiens neanderthalensis]). Humans don't have talons or tusks, but ogres do. This dissimilarity strongly suggests two distinct but closely related species (different species, same genus).

Atlanteans are not merely closely related to humans, they are modern humans (i.e., homo sapiens) who fled the Earth in the distant past and evolved on a slightly different course than Earthlings because of their time spent in other dimensions, exposed to all manner of cosmic energies. Thus they would obviously be considered a subspecies of human (homo sapiens atlantidensis?).

The Amazon race in SA1 are just magically augmented humans (or more precisely, the descendants of magically augmented humans), not a separate species or subspecies at all.

[Pax Concord]

Care to cite an example of this?

The relationship between dinosaurs and birds isn't very well depicted in our current taxonomic structures. Of course, this comes from grafting extinct group onto a system designed for living creatures.

Interfertility does not define a species. Anatomical and genetic characteristics do.

From dictionary.com: Species: A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Care to cite an example of this?

The relationship between dinosaurs and birds isn't very well depicted in our current taxonomic structures. Of course, this comes from grafting extinct group onto a system designed for living creatures.

Such a relationship has never been proven to exist. Fossil evidence of dinosaur brain structure in the late '90s has even been interpreted by some paleontologists to actually disprove such a relationship.

Interfertility does not define a species. Anatomical and genetic characteristics do.

From dictionary.com: Species: A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding.[/quote]

A crude definition, and only partly correct. More precisely species is "a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name."

Creatures of a given species primariliy breed amongst themselves, but hybridization does occur. Thus, the mere fact that two creatures can breed only establishes a relationship, but does nothing to verify the extent of that relationship. There are similarities between ogres, atlanteans, and humans, but there are also significant differences comparable to the differences between dogs and wolves, lions and tigers, and horses and donkeys, all of which are distinct species within shared genera, and all of which have differing degrees of hybrid fertility.

I think that perhaps this topic has gone too far in to the actual realm of real world genetics. This is after all a RPG. I also think that the original intent of the topic was about how it would work IN GAME and if there were any known rules printed in any supplement or FAQ.
By all means continue the scientific debate but I just thought it was worth mentioning.

The question of game mechanics was answered early on: By the rules it is not possible, period. Hybrids are exressly forbidden for most races in CB1, and in the few exceptions the offspring are considered to be either one race or the other for all intents and purposes.

The subsequent scientific argument is simply because the statement, "in the Amazon description it says that Amazons can successfully mate with humans, True Atlanteans, and ogres, so that confirms that they are all of a species" is patently false and demonstrates a very limited understanding of biology that needs to be remedied.

[Pax Concord]

A crude definition, and only partly correct. More precisely species is "a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding, and being designated by a binomial that consists of the name of a genus followed by a Latin or latinized uncapitalized noun or adjective agreeing grammatically with the genus name."

Well, given that amazons can "potentially interbreed" with humans, atlanteans, and ogres, and we have no idea what their binomial is, I say that those four groups still fit into your more precise definition.

Creatures of a given species primariliy breed amongst themselves, but hybridization does occur. Thus, the mere fact that two creatures can breed only establishes a relationship, but does nothing to verify the extent of that relationship. There are similarities between ogres, atlanteans, and humans, but there are also significant differences comparable to the differences between dogs and wolves, lions and tigers, and horses and donkeys, all of which are distinct species within shared genera, and all of which have differing degrees of hybrid fertility.

Of course, this is a much better example of why nature frequently defies taxonomy. Trying to impose man-made categories on the fluid mess that is our biosphere is doomed to a certain amount of failure.

The subsequent scientific argument is simply because the statement, "in the Amazon description it says that Amazons can successfully mate with humans, True Atlanteans, and ogres, so that confirms that they are all of a species" is patently false and demonstrates a very limited understanding of biology that needs to be remedied.

It strikes me that we are having a very typical "splitters vs. lumpers" taxonomy argument. If I understand you correctly, you think that cladistics trumps interbreedablilty, correct? Yet, even your own preferred definition doesn't mention anything about cladistics.

[glitterboy2098]

taxons are a fairly arbitrary lot.

the main distiction between species groups within a Genus is not can they interbreed, but do they in the wild. (in the case of humans this breaks down a bit, but bear with me.)

take for example the Canis Genus.

Canis Familiris is dogs, Canis Lupus is wovles, Canis Latrans is coyote's.

the three groups can interbreed, (we know because people have done so to produce various hybrids.) these hybrids are fully fertile with all three species.

by Pax's definition, they should be all one species, but the physical differences make them seperate species.



we know Ogres are a seperate species, its stated in their writeup.
amazons and atlanteans are human subspecies, as while they are listed as human, they have mutations and adaptions that distingush them from our kind of human.

there are rules for interbreeding of the different types, so this is kind of a moot point.

[Pax Concord]

taxons are a fairly arbitrary lot.

the main distiction between species groups within a Genus is not can they interbreed, but do they in the wild. (in the case of humans this breaks down a bit, but bear with me.)

take for example the Canis Genus.

Canis Familiris is dogs, Canis Lupus is wovles, Canis Latrans is coyote's.

the three groups can interbreed, (we know because people have done so to produce various hybrids.) these hybrids are fully fertile with all three species.

by Pax's definition, they should be all one species, but the physical differences make them seperate species.

An important, and valid, distinction.

we know Ogres are a seperate species, its stated in their writeup.

In which book? In PFRP (revised ed) it states that they regularly interbreed with humans. It even implies that more ogres are born to human mothers than to ogre mothers! This would be extremely unusual for an animal.

[Riftmaker]

Umm if it doesn't up set the game balance go for it.