When you bring Robotech into Rifts...

[Shadyslug]

...you follow the idea of increasing the MDC through modification, or do you prefer to just leave it as it...

Or do you just up it to bring the mechs up to par?

[Shadyslug]

I've found that the weapons of Robotech pack a bit more punch though...

Then how would you deal with the technology issues? Would the armor of Rifts be more advanced? Or would the Robotech armor be more advanced?

[glitterboy2098]

i created rules for converting the various types of armor to another, so an armor boost is possible, based on tech, not size. (RDF mecha converted to rifts armor end up with doubled armor, the MAC-2 gets 3X, REF/ASC mecha usually end up with a 50% boost. i also included ratios for chrome, as well as several other "exotic" or faction specific armor types.)


weapons wise they work well, if you apply a bit of common sense (for example, the 55mm gatling GU-11 does 1d6x10 md for a full melee burst. thats not enough to kill a guy in most forms of body armor. but while the armor is intact, what do you think the effects of a 55mm shell hitting a guy at nearly the speed of sound are? the armor may survive by the rules, but the guy would be pulp.)

(i would rule a decent operator could double or triple the output of the old RDF lasers though, like the Vf's headlasers.)



robotech mecha can cream most any rifts mecha, if used right. robotech mecha are agile and mobile. rifts mecha are not (usually). play to those strengths, and you will do well.

[The Artist Formerly]

I've found that the weapons of Robotech pack a bit more punch though...

Then how would you deal with the technology issues? Would the armor of Rifts be more advanced? Or would the Robotech armor be more advanced?

And they have as serious range advantage. That alone gives them the edge.

[glitterboy2098]

Those 55mm shells are going a lot faster than the speed of sound...

i figured, but with out hard data on the actual speed, i was conservative.


robotech weapons are not more powerful than rifts ones.

at best they are equal, at worst the robotech ones are pitiful.

the RDF weapons are way outclassed, the ASC weapons are on the low end of the rifts scale, and the REF ones are so-so, with most being in the average section of the rifts range.

(the myth that robotech weapons are more powerful comes from the starships. mega-lasers and heavy particle beam main guns tend to get munchkins drooling.)

but remember that many of these are protoculture powered, and its unlikely that you can find additional sources of protoculture, or jury-rig an alternate powersource.

so in the long run rifts weapons are more powerful.

[Drakenred®™©]

Actualy, the Macross-Southern Cross mecha were all Nuke powered and the GC-M mecha were (aparently) Fusion or Fuel cell powered. that Protoculture as a powersource stuff is, frankly, something out of a couple of peopels (a-HEM)

[glitterboy2098]

i was going by the RPG books.

in the show they never said what protoculture is, but since in new gen its contained in canisters, it points to fuel or a fuel additive.

[Drakenred®™©]

Basicaly what I would do is

MDC: everthing but Cyclones get the MDC boost as desribed in the now defunt Original Conversion book

Weapons, thoes were already upgraded in our campain (the GU-11 does 5D6 on a short 5 round burst for example but has a fixed interal magazen) (oh and upgraid the 12 Short range missles to Medium range)

GU-11, gut the 55mm gun and replace that with a hybrid Grenaid launcher-Railgun system(Rail gun was 1D4X10 and the grenaid launcher was the one out of merks but tweeked to have a larger payload and slighly improved range) the 180 Grenaid launcher in the "RDF"Excaliber-gladiator replace that with a sawed off 120mm from Rifts mercs the auto cannon becomes a standard rail gun, strip out the lazers and flame throwers in the chest and upgraid the head lazer on the gladiator to the Vulcans found in Rifts Mercs. you can either put in power capacitators(Ie a BUNCH of Eclips! LOL) to keep them charged or just asume that you upgraided the reactor, Raidar X is a bit more problematic unless you decide to simply replace the auto cannons with Boomguns-Vulcan laser pair (and again assume a power plant upgraid) AOTS Mecah just need armor, they already have a fair weapon for what they are, REF mecha are a bit odd, and need armor

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I play it by the book, Conversion book 1 that is.

the MDC and weapons are all the same (no magic barrier upgrading)

The RT mecha advantage comes from light weight and the protoculture circiutry (powersource my foot). so a PC must find a mechanic to do the job of upgrading the armour, but that has lots of good roleplayable problems of its own.
•finding a mechanic you can Trust.
•cost of manufacture, tooling to make the short production run plating wil be hidious.
•a mistake can ruin the mechamorphosis, unless you happen to have a VF or bio-maint engineer in the group.
• weapon ammo, having to either get some made, again with the tooling costs, or swap out for a standard Rifts weapon. missiles have the same problem, make your own or modify the hardpoints and launch racks to take Rifts standard.
• it's D-Bee equipment so the CS isn't your friend.

there are plenty of ruft mecha you can check for size and scavenge weapons from, like inboard lasers, auto cannons and the like so a trip to a scrap yard is a good idea.
But the GM can be a nasty pants and claim incompatable control systems requiring an electical engineer and computer programer, again not easy to find in Rifts.

While RT is based on super alien tech, Rifts has had plenty of time to produce some systems that are better, hydraulics and locomotion systems for one. so If you can rebuild a VTs structure and motive system, coupled with the protocuture circuitry you could have a faster hardier mecha. but who is going to pull their mecha apart for upto a year, have millions of credits and find the right people for the job?

makes for good role playing. IMO.

[Lt. Holmes]

I agree that the mecha should be left as-is.

Robotech mecha already has an advantage in the mechamorphosis and the weapons. The ASC mecha comes close to most of the stuff in the Rifts Main Book and isn't that far behind almost all the other mecha.

One big advantage that the ASC mecha have are their radars. 200 mile range and can track 48 targets. The RMB mecha have a range of 20 miles and can track 24 targets.

As well, making them play standard mecha is a great role-playing scenario and it can lead to some mighty fine adventures.

[RockJock]

It all depends on what size group your talking about. I will assume it is a squad sized group, or if your being generous a squad of pilots and a few extra mecha in a light transport(this provides a backup or two, some spare parts, protoculture, tools, ammo ect) and have some form of engineer/tech in the group. Start them off somewhere in North America where they help save a small city/large town from your bad guy of choice. After the battle they figure out what is going on, and that they are in a new dimension, and agree to work for the town as mercs for a set period of time. In exchange for protection the PCs get room and board, and the towns operator/tw helps them upgrade their equipment with off the shelf equipment.

For the actual upgrades, you have the standard armor upgrades from the conversion book along with switching out missles. After the group gets some addition income, either as mercs, selling captured equipment, or trading off one of their own mecha they switch to stadard railguns, laser rifles, grenade launchers ect. Gun Pods, due to their size and weight give you lots of possibilities. My favorite is a WI grenade launcher with a large ammo capacity combined with a JA-12 Laser Rifle. Pretty much the above. Just look at weapons from the main book, JU, and Mercs. You could relace everything on a VT with room to spare.

Or if you really want to make things interesting use the same scenario as above, but have the group save the Naruni, and become the next Robot Control. You have the same armor upgrades, but add integral super heavy Naruni force fields. Gunpods are replaced with a combination high capacity Micro Missile Launcher and Double Barreled Plasma Cartridge Machine Guns. Lasers are replaced with Plasma Cannosn with 3000 ft range doing 1d4x10. Yes they end up with insanely powerful mecha, but they are hunted, and have to go back to Naruni for all their ammo needs.

[Hystrix]

What about the Zentraedi Battle Pods. I have a serious problem with a 50 or 60 foot tall Mecha haveing less MDC than a 6 foot dude in body armor... !

[Svartalf]

Basicaly what I would do is

MDC: everthing but Cyclones get the MDC boost as desribed in the now defunt Original Conversion book


GU-11, gut the 55mm gun and replace that with a hybrid Grenaid launcher-Railgun system(Rail gun was 1D4X10 and the grenaid launcher was the one out of merks but tweeked to have a larger payload and slighly improved range) the 180 Grenaid launcher in the "RDF"Excaliber-gladiator replace that with a sawed off 120mm from Rifts mercs the auto cannon becomes a standard rail gun, strip out the lazers and flame throwers in the chest and upgraid the head lazer on the gladiator to the Vulcans found in Rifts Mercs. you can either put in power capacitators(Ie a BUNCH of Eclips! LOL) to keep them charged or just asume that you upgraided the reactor, Raidar X is a bit more problematic unless you decide to simply replace the auto cannons with Boomguns-Vulcan laser pair (and again assume a power plant upgraid) AOTS Mecah just need armor, they already have a fair weapon for what they are, REF mecha are a bit odd, and need armor

begging pardon... but the MDC boost if far from automatic : it comes when the higher Rifts tech is used to add armor to the less advanced Robetech mecha... which means you have to find some major facilities (after all them mecha tend to be pretty big) (or come with your own Ikazushi size or bigger base ) and some willing local mechanics and source of raw materials and parts... then some time to have the mecha upgraded before some hostile local powers comes knocking.

Good idea for the GU XI... but you should be more specific than just saying "mercs"... that book has a lot of equipment.
Sawing off the 120 mm gun from the Iron Fist tank seems a bad idea... if the tube is shortened, it would do horrid stuff to the range and accuracy of an artillery shell.
vulcans from Mercs? same as on what vehicle? I've looked but failed to find what you're referring to.
AOTS? do you means ASC (Southern Cross?)

[Svartalf]

What about the Zentraedi Battle Pods. I have a serious problem with a 50 or 60 foot tall Mecha haveing less MDC than a 6 foot dude in body armor... !

well... fact is that even by RT standards, those things *are* flimsy... I guess that the manufacture is mostly conventional alloys rather than modern Rifts material ... think of it as Alien Chipwell stuff. so, if I imported Zentraedi in a Rifts world, I would leave the pods as they are... well, I guess that in RT, Zentraedi who stayed long on Earth *did* get their pods upgraded and armored up... common sense can overcome even the most entrenched military mind when your bacon is on the line away from home base...

[Hystrix]

What about the Zentraedi Battle Pods. I have a serious problem with a 50 or 60 foot tall Mecha haveing less MDC than a 6 foot dude in body armor... !

well... fact is that even by RT standards, those things *are* flimsy... I guess that the manufacture is mostly conventional alloys rather than modern Rifts material ... think of it as Alien Chipwell stuff. so, if I imported Zentraedi in a Rifts world, I would leave the pods as they are... well, I guess that in RT, Zentraedi who stayed long on Earth *did* get their pods upgraded and armored up... common sense can overcome even the most entrenched military mind when your bacon is on the line away from home base...

Well there is flimsy and then there is impractical. You might as well have Zentread wrapped in tin foil running around fighting...

You'd think if your going to give the VF series Veritechs an upgrade, then you'd give the Zentraedi one as well...

[Svartalf]

Well there is flimsy and then there is impractical. You might as well have Zentread wrapped in tin foil running around fighting...

You'd think if your going to give the VF series Veritechs an upgrade, then you'd give the Zentraedi one as well...

ermmm... that's not nice of me to say that of them, but I'd guess that's precisely what the Robotech Masters did...

and that's why I mentioned the Zentraedi on earth having their equipment reinforced. In my previous post, I had pointed out that upgrading veritechs was a matter of *having* them upgraded, not one of them arriving on Rifts earth with improved stats by the magic of game-to-game conversion...

Then, of course, if you, as GM, decide that they are too weak to stand a chance on Rifts earth and deserve to come with better stats, just because you feel that plopping them down here with their original RTRPG stats is not correct and by virtue of what they *are* (or because you think that a PPE laced system based on the Flower of Life and robotechnology would get greatly improved from arriving on a magic rich place)... well, then it *might* be fair to improve the zentraedi mecha too... (or then again are *they* protoculture based and deserving of a built in upgrade when arriving in RiftS?)

[Hystrix]

Well, actually, I'm torn. I don't like changing stats. I'd like to keep the Zentraedi the way they are, but, dangit, one partical beam blast from a hand held micronian rifle will blow 'em to kingdom come!

[RockJock]

The before mentioned grenade launcer in my post, and I assume in the other post is a WI-GL20 Automatic Grenade Launcher. It weighs 130lbs and a 200 round belt of ammo goes for 20lbs. The only other grenade laucher there is the GL4 which is only 20 lbs, and shoots the same grenades, but at shorter ranges, and without the bursts. The description says the weapon is similar to the Pre-Rifts MM-1 Grenade Laucher which fires 25mm rounds. Even being conservative and making it a 40mm grenade launcher still puts it in the same realm as the GU series gunpods. It would just have huge amounts of ammo, or some form of backup weapon built in. Either a Rail Gun, or a heavy energy rifle fed by NG powerpacks would work.

[RockJock]

As far as upgading a Zen Pod I would make it minimal armor upgrades for the standard old style pods. The whole RT RPG series talks about how hard it is to up armor a Battle Pod because of the size of the Zen pilot, and the mechanics involved. Now an REF Battle Pod is another story. I would let them be rearmored much eaiser.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

What about the Zentraedi Battle Pods. I have a serious problem with a 50 or 60 foot tall Mecha haveing less MDC than a 6 foot dude in body armor... !

well... fact is that even by RT standards, those things *are* flimsy... I guess that the manufacture is mostly conventional alloys rather than modern Rifts material ... think of it as Alien Chipwell stuff. so, if I imported Zentraedi in a Rifts world, I would leave the pods as they are... well, I guess that in RT, Zentraedi who stayed long on Earth *did* get their pods upgraded and armored up... common sense can overcome even the most entrenched military mind when your bacon is on the line away from home base...

Well there is flimsy and then there is impractical. You might as well have Zentread wrapped in tin foil running around fighting...

You'd think if your going to give the VF series Veritechs an upgrade, then you'd give the Zentraedi one as well...

Thats what the RTMaster did. Macross era battle pods where basicly strong enough to keep the pilot and guns in close proximity until they got close enough to use guns.
There where millions of them, even an increase in the armour by 10% would dramaticly impact the resourses needed to supply mecha.

Plus they are zentreadi, a cloned army. take one clone chamber, add proteins, calcium, and other appropriate minerals, attach protoculture power supply, stir, cook for several hours and alow to stand.

If you are dealing with reconstuction era friendly Zents then a minor upgrade may have already happend to the armour of a TBP and in Rifts, I would allow a substantial upgrade to armour MDC. but that is one hell of a lot of armour to change out.

[Drakenred®™©]

Basicaly what I would do is

MDC: everthing but Cyclones get the MDC boost as desribed in the now defunt Original Conversion book


GU-11, gut the 55mm gun and replace that with a hybrid Grenaid launcher-Railgun system(Rail gun was 1D4X10 and the grenaid launcher was the one out of merks but tweeked to have a larger payload and slighly improved range) the 180 Grenaid launcher in the "RDF"Excaliber-gladiator replace that with a sawed off 120mm from Rifts mercs the auto cannon becomes a standard rail gun, strip out the lazers and flame throwers in the chest and upgraid the head lazer on the gladiator to the Vulcans found in Rifts Mercs. you can either put in power capacitators(Ie a BUNCH of Eclips! LOL) to keep them charged or just asume that you upgraided the reactor, Raidar X is a bit more problematic unless you decide to simply replace the auto cannons with Boomguns-Vulcan laser pair (and again assume a power plant upgraid) AOTS Mecah just need armor, they already have a fair weapon for what they are, REF mecha are a bit odd, and need armor

begging pardon... but the MDC boost if far from automatic : it comes when the higher Rifts tech is used to add armor to the less advanced Robetech mecha... which means you have to find some major facilities (after all them mecha tend to be pretty big) (or come with your own Ikazushi size or bigger base ) and some willing local mechanics and source of raw materials and parts... then some time to have the mecha upgraded before some hostile local powers comes knocking.

which is basicaly what I ment, Pre Coalition Campain you had a couple of manufactures who would do it for the price of one of the VF-1s

Good idea for the GU XI... but you should be more specific than just saying "mercs"... that book has a lot of equipment.
Sawing off the 120 mm gun from the Iron Fist tank seems a bad idea... if the tube is shortened, it would do horrid stuff to the range and accuracy of an artillery shell.

Basicaly its a grenaid launcher, and the original 180mm morter was a short barrel as well, basicaly we used that as a baseline for a short range gun (roughly 500 m range, incidentaly for all of the heavy Vehicle mounted harware we changed most of the listed ranges (in Ft) to the exact value in Meters, (slighty more than tripling the range)

vulcans from Mercs? same as on what vehicle? I've looked but failed to find what you're referring to.
AOTS? do you means ASC (Southern Cross?)

Yes(i think, it was at the time that Mercs came out that we got a hold of some Macross era mecha) and yes,
[/quote]

[AdmTolval]

On increasing the armor, remember you are using Rifts materials on rebuilding the mech. When you do that, you have more M.D.C. but you lose the laser resistant of the Southern Cross and REF mecha. I proposed this question some years ago to the Palladium staff and this was their answer.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I did this a while ago but I'll pull another one together now.

Based on the relative size of mecha from RT and Rifts, here is a list of potential replacement weapons.

VF-1
GU-11: Rip the innerds out and use a salvaged C-100R from a spider walker.
or a Boom gun. recoild penalties, obviously. like takes 2 actions, the second to recover.

Nose lasers: NG-101 x2. from the Northergun Sky King.

Head Lasers: C-40R (SAMAS, Mark V), CR-4T (skull walker).

I could go on but that would mean getting out of my chair and retrieving more books.

[Chronicle]

Robotech Mecha (mainly the transformables) outclass anything on Rifts earth when it comes to maneuverablity. Since RT Vehicals don't have teh -10 Dodge rule you could incorperate that Fact as a Perk of Protoculture

[Lt. Holmes]

Robotech Mecha (mainly the transformables) outclass anything on Rifts earth when it comes to maneuverablity. Since RT Vehicals don't have teh -10 Dodge rule you could incorperate that Fact as a Perk of Protoculture

Damn fine idea, that. What better way to show just how manouverable the RT mecha is?

*scribbles that idea down for future reference*

[Chronicle]

Robotech Mecha (mainly the transformables) outclass anything on Rifts earth when it comes to maneuverablity. Since RT Vehicals don't have teh -10 Dodge rule you could incorperate that Fact as a Perk of Protoculture

Damn fine idea, that. What better way to show just how manouverable the RT mecha is?

*scribbles that idea down for future reference*

[Hav0k]

Robotech Mecha (mainly the transformables) outclass anything on Rifts earth when it comes to maneuverablity. Since RT Vehicals don't have teh -10 Dodge rule you could incorperate that Fact as a Perk of Protoculture

I agree.... Very good idea....

This is only for mechas right? What about the characters when *outside* their mechas? then -10 dodge rule applies, or they still are "anime" characters and avoid the penalty?

[Chronicle]

well since the Characters havn't had their spliff laced with the stuff they will get nailed.............Now imagine a Protoculture Juicer

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

and the Zentraedi?
do they have the -10, they are of the protoculture.
and the RT masters and Clones like Zor Prime.

[Chronicle]

i would probably say no for practicality reasons since their speed wasn't really messed with extensively.......besides how the heck is a 50' Giant gonna dodge easily if he is only as agile as a normal human. Bioroid pilots on the otherhand seem to have a zombie like mentallity so i doubt that they would be able to fight well outside their bioroids. But then again to Zentradi always seemed to me to have more personality then those dorks.

[Zer0 Kay]

i was going by the RPG books.

in the show they never said what protoculture is, but since in new gen its contained in canisters, it points to fuel or a fuel additive.

I could have sworn there was an episode where they explained that by placing a flower of life seed under pressure it produced an effect like cold fusion (and they showed a tank with fluid in it and two cones with needle points at each end and a little speck in the middle [seed?] and they press against the seed and then there's a flash of light) and that this process was what they called protoculture. Then again it may have been a dream.

[Zer0 Kay]

personal weapons in the REF are on par with most of the tech in RIFTS except for the Coalitions new tech and that of the NGR, and the Gallant H-90 is comparable to ANY rifle on Rifts earth as is the Ep-37 Cyclone weapon, the Coalition DO have an advantage with there new style missles but that will change as the REF analyze that technology.

although REF is lacking in Rail gun technology..that is most likely becuase they chose to stay with conventional cannon's and energy weapons becuase they would be easier to produce in mass quantities...

The scientist of the REF are geniuses. They developed new technology by reverse engineering Alien technology. Geniuses I say because it is new technology not use of the old alien tech. They developed transformable mecha based off of non-transformable alien tech. They eventually find out how the "protoculture" works and micronize the fuel cells. They would most certainly be able to adapt the Naruni explosive into new missiles.

The CS's missile tech as far as damage may be higher but the RT missiles are higher tech as far as size. The size for all long range missiles in RT is about the size of a modern phoenix missile. Remember the VF series fighters can carry 6 under each wing. The NGR for example have a missile launching platform that has 1 long range missile. The RDF Spartan is a mass destruction god. If any RT force can keep manufacturing their missiles they'd win. If they upgraded them with CS or Naruni tech they'd take over in a few years.

As far as Railgun tech if you play with Macross II as part of RT then they eventually develop Railgun tech.

[Zer0 Kay]

VF-1
GU-11: Rip the innerds out and use a salvaged C-100R from a spider walker.
or a Boom gun. recoild penalties, obviously. like takes 2 actions, the second to recover.

Your trying to tell me a 40' tall mech that is heavier than a GB is still gonna suffer from the recoil?

OK. So you give a child a shot gun he fires it and falls on his ass the next time he uses something to stabalise it. He gives it back to his father his father shoots it fine several times in a row in rapid succession then pats his son on the head.

If you can't go with that then how about. The RDF, SC, and REF scientists would be smart enough to link firing controlls of the boomgun with the vernier thrusters of the veritech so the much higher powered verniers (compared to the glitterboys stabalizer rockets would compensate.

[Zer0 Kay]

Robotech Mecha (mainly the transformables) outclass anything on Rifts earth when it comes to maneuverablity. Since RT Vehicals don't have teh -10 Dodge rule you could incorperate that Fact as a Perk of Protoculture

Also in my Robotech games when the pilot becomes ace level determined by GM he is able to use autododge on missile volleys greater than 4. Why not Max, Miria, Rick and Roy did it often.

[Zer0 Kay]

In my Rifts / Robotech x-over the REF was able to reverse engineer K-Hex in short order (2 years).

I keep the armor low, but the damage and manuverability are superior on REF stuff.

In a standing army enviroment REF mecha will hold its own with K-Hex easy.

The REF? How much of the REF? I have always thought of doing an X-Over where the SDF-3 appeared in the Rifts Earth Dimension expecting to pop out over Reflex Point since they dissapeared on the way there. But then figured it would be too powerful.

[glitterboy2098]

you can either:

A) send over a ship/group able to support itself

or

B) have the group convert a rifts universe factory/military base

i went with the second, though i have yet to codify it all.

an attempted freedom fighter supply run from tyrol (third invid war) stranded a group on rifts earth. while they had massive supplies, it was still limited. but they found the remains of the air force academy in colorado springs, and promptly converted it and the machine shops in it to maintain their mecha. (of course, protoculture is still in short supply, but if they want to brave the invid infested florida swamps, they can keep their mecha powered.)

[glitterboy2098]

I look at it this way if you bring Robotech to Rifts Earth keep everything as is from the books.

1) Robotechnology is way better than anything on Rifts Earth, barring Narani stuff which is about the same level.

2) Protoculture powered mecha on Rifts Earth would some how some way attract Haydon and in his child like mind have the Invid arrive to to hunt down the protoculture users. And SC mecha is nuclear powered but still has better performance than anything in Rifts Earth.

3) No mechanic on Rifts Earth would be able to repair or modify any type of Robotech mecha its a skill only on the Robotech world read skill discriptions.

4) If the SDF-3 entered Rifts Earth space I think it would be able to destroy any orbiting satilites in orbit and any foe it encounted there.

5) Rift Tech mecha and equipment is primitive campared to anything in Robotech espesially in the REF. The VF-111 Raven would be unstopable but tats just me, even a VF-19 or 21 would rock from Macross. The Legeos System would over power any foe encountered in the Rifts univeres except the Spinnerette Interceptor hell Mach 20 lol. So I say why bother to bring Robotech to Rifts Earth the best mecha they got on Rifts Earth would be Narani anyways. Done this and that so its pretty much been said.

A psionic Rifts Operator would be able to repair and modify REF equipment, or any other Robotech / Macross stuff. The question is if you would want to.

It's implied that Rifts style armor is heavier that Robotech stuff. It's more than implied the amazing bonuses REF / RDF mecha receive is protoculture based. Ever notice that none of the SC mecha had an auto-dodge?

As far as fighter craft go, Robotech VS Coalition is pretty much the U.S. VS Iraq. This becomes more pronounced if you bring Macross II stuff in. Heck, the RDF Super, with its 40 Medium range missile capacity, is a nightmare for most Rifts forces.

Of course, the RDF / REF stuff, as well as Macross fighters, need to be kept in constant supply. For long-term scouting give me an SC Hover Tank any day.

personally, i figure the tech level to be identical, but the tech base and focus have developed so differntly that it's not directly compatable.

in rifts humanity spent most of a century developing super-technology. human augmentation through genetics, chemicals and mechanical enhancement was the main focus. on the warfare focus, rifts focused on powered armor, armor protection, and powerful weapons (energy and railguns). explosives got a boost, but conventional cannon and rifles seem to have been ignored.

in robotech, the technology came from rebuilding advanced alien tech, and most of it was developed fast (with in 10 years). big robots, propulsion, powerplants, and conventional weapons where the main warfare focus. energy weapons are primitive and weak until humanity absorbed the science of the RT masters and Sentinals. in robotech most mecha are large robots (generally bipedal, if not humanoid), have fusion powerplants (some are protoculture enhanced), propulsion is fusion turbines (have no range limits, and have a much higher top speed, and are more compact than the "nuclear rockets" of RIFTS), and most mecha mount missiles and cannon firing conventional shells. the advancements in conventional weapons can be seen most dramaticlly in the REF's HE 9mm rounds. (1D4md per round, at 9mm? in rifts it takes a 14.5mm/.50cal round to do that, and those are expensive to make. in robotech the HE 9mm is cheap and easy.) the GU-11 and GU-XX use standard 55mm and 35mm rounds respectivly, and STILL do mega-damage.


a RIFTS technician would have difficulty repairing robotech mecha at first, but given enough time they would be able to figure it out. only the devices that use truely new mathmatics (like fold drives) would be beyond their reach. (though some of the larger tech nations, like the republic of japan, might be able to understand the process and reverse engineer one.)

conversely a robotech engineer would have trouble with compact nuclear powerplants, nuke based propulsion, railguns, compact and powerful energy weapons, and most forms of human augmentation.



in a crossover situation, care must be taken on technology transfer.

armor is armor, if you shape rifts grade armor to fit a veritech, you'd end up with a tougher veritech (i made conversion tables for this). missiles are on par, but you'd have to modify the launchers and computer programs to work with RIFTS tech missiles. if the CS or other major tech power aquirred fusion technology, their bots, PA, tanks, and fighters would get a massive ower boost. even the HE 9mm ammo could tip the balance of power.

but remember that the RT goup would adapt to the new tech at the same rate.

so while the CS adapts the fusion tech, the RDF/ASC/REF group would be adapting railguns, armor, and human augmentation.

so the balance remains, though tenitive.

[Lt. Holmes]

The way I see it, Rifts mecha is heavier and better armoured, while the Robotech mecha are lighter, faster, and more manouverable.

For me, the RPG is canon in its statement that it's Protoculture that gives the RT mecha its incredible reflexes and human-like motions.

I like the way the Conversion book has balanced out those two issues, especially with the way the missles and ammunition between the two worlds just isn't compatable, and how the Flower of Life doesn't like ley lines. Keeps things simple and interesting.

As for who would be better at adapating? Robotech scientists would cut through the Rifts technology like a CADS blade through Invid Robotech science-guys excel at learning and adapting alien technology. Heck, they've probably gotten that down to a science

Meanwhile, the Rifts people are aided by psionics and higher technology, but they'd have a hard time cracking some of the deeper mysteries of the Robotech mecha, just because of a lack of experience in retrofitting alien technologies.

[Zer0 Kay]

personally, i figure the tech level to be identical, but the tech base and focus have developed so differntly that it's not directly compatable.

in rifts humanity spent most of a century developing super-technology. human augmentation through genetics, chemicals and mechanical enhancement was the main focus. on the warfare focus, rifts focused on powered armor, armor protection, and powerful weapons (energy and railguns). explosives got a boost, but conventional cannon and rifles seem to have been ignored.

in robotech, the technology came from rebuilding advanced alien tech, and most of it was developed fast (with in 10 years). big robots, propulsion, powerplants, and conventional weapons where the main warfare focus. energy weapons are primitive and weak until humanity absorbed the science of the RT masters and Sentinals. in robotech most mecha are large robots (generally bipedal, if not humanoid), have fusion powerplants (some are protoculture enhanced), propulsion is fusion turbines (have no range limits, and have a much higher top speed, and are more compact than the "nuclear rockets" of RIFTS), and most mecha mount missiles and cannon firing conventional shells. the advancements in conventional weapons can be seen most dramaticlly in the REF's HE 9mm rounds. (1D4md per round, at 9mm? in rifts it takes a 14.5mm/.50cal round to do that, and those are expensive to make. in robotech the HE 9mm is cheap and easy.) the GU-11 and GU-XX use standard 55mm and 35mm rounds respectivly, and STILL do mega-damage.


a RIFTS technician would have difficulty repairing robotech mecha at first, but given enough time they would be able to figure it out. only the devices that use truely new mathmatics (like fold drives) would be beyond their reach. (though some of the larger tech nations, like the republic of japan, might be able to understand the process and reverse engineer one.)

First the CS have problems replicating GB chromium armor. I dought they'd be able to replicate the lighter non reflective laser resistant RT armor.
I've always thought the only way RT could make it into Rifts is through a bad Fold. So that would make a fold a Rift that is controlled to only displace in distance. So unless Japan can duplicate the comparitively lower tech of Phaseworlds Rift gates (since their much larger) I don't think they'd be able to develop Fold Engines.

conversely a robotech engineer would have trouble with compact nuclear powerplants, nuke based propulsion, railguns, compact and powerful energy weapons, and most forms of human augmentation.

So it would take them what a year to the CSs 20? RT doesn't go with Railguns because they are more difficult to maintain more expensive to manufacture and in a burst where each round is loaded individually there is a drop in power for each successive round. With a conventional weapon you only have a barrel to replace if the barrel gets damaged. With a rail gun you have electrical elements along with the rails and the barrel that need to be replaced. I don't think they'd have problems with energy weapons they'd just need to see how Rifts focuses and catalyzes the energy. The compact nuclear powerplants shouldn't be a problem for someone who knows how a nuclear reactor works but decided to micronize the far more safe Protoculture powerplant. Why would they want to go with it.

in a crossover situation, care must be taken on technology transfer.

armor is armor, if you shape rifts grade armor to fit a veritech, you'd end up with a tougher veritech (i made conversion tables for this). missiles are on par, but you'd have to modify the launchers and computer programs to work with RIFTS tech missiles. if the CS or other major tech power aquirred fusion technology, their bots, PA, tanks, and fighters would get a massive ower boost. even the HE 9mm ammo could tip the balance of power.

Missiles on Par? You'd have to replace all the RT long range missiles with lesser quality Rifts Medium range missiles. How many Rifts Fighters are capable of carrying LRMs? The only platforms I'm familiar with are the air castle and the Triax missile platform which has a devistating ONE LRM. All Rifts missiles are larger than their RT counterpart. The RT armor is far lighter than Rifts armors. The Cyclone weight to armor ratio far outdoes any PA. The Alpha's A:W is better than the Spider Skull Walker and the UAR-1. The REF may sacrifice some of their superior speed for higher armor. Possibly develop Command (removable) armor like the SAP, Armored or Super Veritech Mods for all their units including destroids. Possibly use combat shields like the ASC or develop personal/destroid/veritech shields from their own shield tech and Naruni purchased equipment. Enhance their Missiles with K-Hex if they aren't already to that point since they are smaller and produce the same damage compared to the CSs.

but remember that the RT goup would adapt to the new tech at the same rate.

Huh? If you say it took RT just a few years to reverse engineer alien tech and develop transformation capabilities. How can it take the CS the same amount of time when it took them longer when they had blueprints and manufacturing facilities and the instructions in ENGLISH to develop there "High" technology? In RT it also didn't take them long to develop the technology to a point where they could micronize it. The CS can't even figure out how to make GBs. Or how to micronize missiles. Heck the GBs boomgun or the big rail guns on the CS giant robots don't even compare to real railguns DARPA is testing now. http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_RailGuns,,00.html
Just think the GBs Boomgun only goes Mach 2 this beast goes Mach 18.131. Uh I think our modern "SDC" weapons will be able to kick a GBs @$$.

so while the CS adapts the fusion tech, the RDF/ASC/REF group would be adapting railguns, armor, and human augmentation.

More like the RT will be done with the advancements in less than half the time. They'll probably ignore the human augmentations unless they are trying to develop therapy or their leader is T.R. Edwards. Railguns will probably be ignored in favor of upgrading everything to energy and linking the weapons to the power plant so as to not be dependant on reloads in an alien world. Missiles if they are still used would likely be saved for those resistant to lasers or for large battles.

[glitterboy2098]

Quote:
in a crossover situation, care must be taken on technology transfer.

armor is armor, if you shape rifts grade armor to fit a veritech, you'd end up with a tougher veritech (i made conversion tables for this). missiles are on par, but you'd have to modify the launchers and computer programs to work with RIFTS tech missiles. if the CS or other major tech power aquirred fusion technology, their bots, PA, tanks, and fighters would get a massive ower boost. even the HE 9mm ammo could tip the balance of power.

Missiles on Par? You'd have to replace all the RT long range missiles with lesser quality Rifts Medium range missiles. How many Rifts Fighters are capable of carrying LRMs? The only platforms I'm familiar with are the air castle and the Triax missile platform which has a devistating ONE LRM. All Rifts missiles are larger than their RT counterpart. The RT armor is far lighter than Rifts armors. The Cyclone weight to armor ratio far outdoes any PA. The Alpha's A:W is better than the Spider Skull Walker and the UAR-1. The REF may sacrifice some of their superior speed for higher armor. Possibly develop Command (removable) armor like the SAP, Armored or Super Veritech Mods for all their units including destroids. Possibly use combat shields like the ASC or develop personal/destroid/veritech shields from their own shield tech and Naruni purchased equipment. Enhance their Missiles with K-Hex if they aren't already to that point since they are smaller and produce the same damage compared to the CSs.

actually, if you compare the sizes and damage, rifts and robotech missiles are identical. yes, the triax platform thing lists one LRM, and its huge, but you ever see the robotech one? its just as big.

the missiles are the same size and yeild, but the internal design and programming hook ups/software is not. a robotech missile would be mostly warhead and a fairly small but powerful guidance/propulsion system, while the lower tech propulsion and electronics in rifts mean that a rifts missile will be mostly propulsion ans guidance, with a small but powerful warhead.

as for why no rifts fighter carries LRM's? easy. you know why the F-14 is still the only fighter able to carry the pheonix missile? others have the size and thrust to do it, but were built without the ability. its because only the F-14 has the NEED. the other designs rely on the ARRAM and sidewinder, only the F-14 needs the long range interception ability of the pheonix.

its the same in rifts. few rifts bots/fighters carry the LRM because generally speaking, the need to engage targets with a massive warhead 1000 miles away isn't needed. in robotech you have LRM's being used as Anti-Ship missiles, targets you don't want to close range on. very few giant ships in rifts. in rifts the need to engage targets more than 10-20 miles away is minimal, and usually the rifts vehicles carry MRM's more for the firepower than the range.

[gaby]

Well Instead of geting folded to Pluto,s orbit,the Sdf-1 misjumbs to off the Coast of Rifts Earth,s California.

[FreelancerMar]

hrmmmm an 8 year old thread bump.

[ShadowLogan]

Well Instead of geting folded to Pluto,s orbit,the Sdf-1 misjumbs to off the Coast of Rifts Earth,s California.

I've considered two similiar incidents involving the Macross Island/SDF-1 de-fold:
-1. Defolds on target, out by the Moon only it also jumped dimensions. All that water ice suddenly appearing in the Orbitals zone...
-2. Defolds into the Pacific location of Macross Island in Rifts Earth dimension, displacing the Rifts-Macross Island (if it is present) much like the Japanese Cities when they where brought forward in time. Also considered having some ASC & REF elements also brought along or appearing later to give them a tech update.

Both avoid the whole NA situation (CS and Vamps mostly).

[taalismn]

And there is the 'Oops, Game Over' option:

-SDF-1 hits Rifts Earth at a good percentage of light speed, essentially becoming a relativistic torpedo. Not so good for the people aboard her...or the Earth, as the resultant chunk of earth blown out triggers round the globe earthquakes and volcanic activity(and tsunamis if an ocean strike) heralding a new Dark Age, possibly even an extinction event.

"Zor, you idiot."

[keir451]

I, like Adam, go by the 1st edition Conversion book rules wherein even the Cyclone gets an armor upgrade. The issue of Protoculture is that by the BOOKS it's apower source using the "mystical Flower of Life seed" so once you run out of it (and Sentinels/Invid Invasion Mecha had really short duration power supplies) you need to switch not just your weapons (which are also Protoculture powered) but your power source too and then you also lose the famed RT bonuses.

[keir451]

I used ore or less the same approach, however i also decided PC systems had a few advantages while they lasted.

First, your Cyclone is immune to Psionic effects while it is PC powered. You aren't, but if your wearing it, its all the same, and Telemechanics: Whatever can go take a flying leap.

Second, PC systems register on life sense, empathy, and similar low order life detection approaches. Not an advantage really, but an effect.

Lastly, PC powered weapon systems harm things like werewolves, spirits, and similarly immune creatures on a one to one basis, so this stuff is golden.

The down side is that PC can't grow where high PPE exists, so it can only grow on Rifts Earth where there are no ley lines of nexus points. Go take a look at the map real quick, I'll wait...see the problem yet? Worse than that, exposure to high PPE environments accelerates the degradation of PC, rendering it non-viable after a bit, so you can't get more, and what you have won't last more than a few months tops, even in storage.

The only real bright side to all of this is that TW conversion works surprisingly well on PC powered weapon systems, possibly a result of the manufacturing processes involved. As such, a TW converted Cyclone will retain its leap dodge bonuses in power suit mode only, but it will lose all the above aspects at that point. With a basic conversion of the chest launchers and a swap for Rifts Earth weapons or conversion of PC powered weapons to conventional power sources, you can keep right on trucking and nothing much changes other than your power source. (After all, its not like the CS will hate you less or more since you are a D-Bee anyhow!)

I never felt the need to increase the MDC, since it was already 200, and the cyclone was about the same size as a SAMAS, and transformed too. Nor did I feel the need to adjust CVR-3, since it too was 50 MDC, and it suffered no penalties, making it massively agile compared to even light battle armors, and it was also intrinsic to the Cyclone conversion process, so being a bit lighter wasn't an issue, especially since that placed it equal to a SAMAS at that stage, armor and suit combined.

Conversion of an Alpha never came up, and the only VF-1 that ever showed up as a plot point that was taken by CS commandos as an illegal possession being used by a small D-Bee merc force from about the time of Dolza's arrival. Pissed them all off real bad, but the other PC's blew it up when my UEEF Cyclone Rider explained how bad possessing such a device could be for the world at large. We still ended up facing what was essentially an Enforcer that could turn into a cumbersome jet, but it took a full melee, and wasn't intended for transformable combat machine so much as multi-modal cavalry machine. Getting hit while transforming is a BAD thing!!!

Eh, I allow the Cyclone the MDC upgrade since it's only 50 MDC, but that's me. A transformable Enforcer!? BRRR!
PC registering to psychics is cool too!

[keir451]

Not all of them , but some of the healing ones, presence sense, and similar. Also, while the Cyclone Rider is effectively immune to mental manipulation, telekinesis based effects worked, and since Sixth Sense was both passive and based on minimal temporal sensing, that also worked against a Cyclone Power suit.

If I recall correctly, the Saber Cyclone Rider I played eventually integrated the forearm mini missile launchers form the SAMAS to his forearms, used the TX-500 as a gunpod, and exchanged the torso missile racks for a dozen standard Rifts launch rails instead. I dropped the CADS almost immediately after I realized how bad an idea it was to take a Cyclone, ANY Cyclone, into close range combat against pretty much anything in Rifts that wanted to get that close. Not so bad against targets that didn't want you to close, but I didn't want to get that close either after I walked away form a couple of melee fights with less than 50 MDC left!

The transforming Enforcer basically carried a pair of six tube MRM launchers in the wings, the same twenty round SRM launchers in the shoulders, the main gun as a gunpod, a pair of the mini laser turrets on either side of the head sensor turret, and had a few hardpoints instead of all of the secondary weapon systems, but still, it was a pretty nasty shock when 50 of them flew into a rivals backyard, changed into robots, and then marched into their capital with SAMAS support! Scared the crap out of the group of us players, since we had worked pretty hard to establish our own little kingdom, which was suddenly a LOT closer to the big bad CS!

Heh, I can see how those Enforcers could freak nearly anybody. I've never tried the Kingdom route, I usually prefer the "Lone Wolf" wanderer style. Trying to set up kingdoms attracts too much attention for most of my PC's.