a what if alternate universe project......

[glitterboy2098]

with all the "alternate timeline" robotechs lately, i wanted to contribute, but i'm too busy with other projects to finish my idea.

so i decided to post the concept, and have the members of this forum develop off of it. not only will it result in a unique universe, it will be more complete and detailed than i could make it.




so here is the concept:


the SDF-3 world jumped, crashlanding in 1944 earth, June 7th. (where is up to you.).

now, a few starting points.

1) Germany did not ignore jet technology between 1939 and 1945, it continued to develop it and put forth the first effective combat jet fighter in 1943, with several less effective designs procceding(basically push the development of the ME-262 to an earlier. the americans and british rush their own designs into production to counter. (but you get results like the first jet fights over korea, the jets slaughtering the prop fighters and bombers until the allied jets become available.)

2) the REF uses its advanced tech to assist the allies in winning the war. (anyone ever seen the movie Final Countdown? that kind of thing)

how would this effect WW2 and after? does the Axis manage to aquire rudimentary robotechnology? or are they crushed entirely?

when Zor's fortress crashes and the zents arrive, what happens?


its up to you.

[Jefffar]

My quick take on this would be that The new UEG would in the post 1945 world, work towards developing a fold capable space fleet and launches an offensive against Breetai's fleet when it arrives in Earth Space, using the SDF-3, the repaired SDF-1 (which would be rebuilt a lot faster this time) and whatever other battle craft they have built in the last 60 years. Expect the standard Veritechs to be the size and capability of the prototype veritechs you see in Macross Plus.

The Earthers would in short order isolate and destroy Breetai's Fleet, Khryon's Fleet and Azonia's Fleet. When Dolza's Grand Fleet arrived it would be hit with the combined might of the Earth Space Fleet, three fully functional grand cannons and of course, the Minmei attack.

With the Zents out of the way, the earthers would hold back and let the Invid and Robotech Masters destroy each other at a safe distance. They would dispatch the Robotech Master's Fleet when it reached the Solar System, and present the captured Elders to the Invid as a peace offering.

In further negotiation with the Invid, in exchange for the Invid freeing the Sentinal Worlds, they would re-seed Opetera with the flower of life.

Even if negotiations with the invid fell through, Earth would have no flower of life bloom and thus would not be an attractive target for the Invid. Additionally the Earthers would have the protoculture matrix of the SDF-1, plus additional protoculture matrixes that would be made by REM, thus giving them the sort of limitless power supply the Master's enjoyed at their peak, making the Earthers a superior match for any alien power.


It's actually kind of boring isn't it.

Needs like another world war, but with Mecha . . .

[taalismn]

On a darker note.....

Don't forget that there was just as much fear in the upper levels of the Allies of what would happen if the Soviets got too muchof an upper hand....'Uncle Joe' Stalin was, arguably, as ruthless as Hitler(ask the Ukranians if you doubt)....THe arrival of advanced humans with accessible (i.e. can be read and reverse-engineered) technology could easily split the Allies up at a critical time and buy the Reich valuable time to dig in....Not to mention the petty infighting that was going on between the politicos of America, France, and Britain over who was going to set the tone of the post-War environment)...

Having SEVERAL REF ships come down in various locations could cause even more trouble...landing in places like French-controlled Tunis/NOrth Africa, Russian Siberia, Manchuria, Thailand, Afghanistan, or, god help them...the Balkans.....Areas between major powers, or relatively quiet locations that suddenly become the focus of world attention....or efforts to 'hush up' the arrival of alien visitors(or the elimination of destabilizing elements with carpet bombing)....

Of course, this means encounters between the befuddled REF and soldiers who have been told about 'aliens' and have thus got their imaginations running wild...only to encounter the aliens and finding them to be human...

Still, however, the idea of a flight of VFs flying air cover for B-17s...or swooping in directly to surgically knock out the German or Imperial Japanese high command(rather than mass aerial bombardment)....Or wiping out the SS's 'special units'....has a certain visceral appeal

[taalismn]

Addendum...On the bigger scale of things...what if the REF crashed in some other Earth's past, got the planet unified and ready for interstellar war against the expected Zentraedi and Masters....then blitzed a peaceful envoy from the Tirolian Republic(that never knew a Zor or Masters)?.....
Oops......

[Chronicle]

Lets assume it lands in the same place.........That being the case the US would be the only power in teh area at the time concidering it just laid the smack down on the Empire of Japan. With that being said it is quite possible that the Remaining Axis powers would not know of this for a few weeks giving the limited range of communications and it would be pretty Easy for the US to hide.

On the otherhand giving as how quickly Nuclear Technology was leaked Robotechnology would possibly be distributed (though unwillfully) the same fasion meaning that the cold war would probabbly still happen, only it may last longer or break out into full scale war.

The Major US Advantage would be a Super space fortress that no one else could duplicate for years to come.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Sounds like someone's been reading Harry Turtledove.... I'll comment further later as I love this type of scenario.

[Chronicle]

Actualy it is strict observation since i haven't read turtledove

[Chronicle]

with all the "alternate timeline" robotechs lately, i wanted to contribute, but i'm too busy with other projects to finish my idea.

so i decided to post the concept, and have the members of this forum develop off of it. not only will it result in a unique universe, it will be more complete and detailed than i could make it.




so here is the concept:


the SDF-3 world jumped, crashlanding in 1944 earth, June 7th. (where is up to you.).

now, a few starting points.

1) Germany did not ignore jet technology between 1939 and 1945, it continued to develop it and put forth the first effective combat jet fighter in 1943, with several less effective designs procceding(basically push the development of the ME-262 to an earlier. the americans and british rush their own designs into production to counter. (but you get results like the first jet fights over korea, the jets slaughtering the prop fighters and bombers until the allied jets become available.)

2) the REF uses its advanced tech to assist the allies in winning the war. (anyone ever seen the movie Final Countdown? that kind of thing)

how would this effect WW2 and after? does the Axis manage to aquire rudimentary robotechnology? or are they crushed entirely?

when Zor's fortress crashes and the zents arrive, what happens?


its up to you.

Here is my take:

(June 7th 1944)
-SDF-3 Defolds over earth on a crash course, No Liberation fleet to greet them and no Invid Ships in orbit.
-It is immediatly assumed that they are not in Kansas anymore but this place still looks like earth.
-With main thrusters down they attempt to do a splash down in the pacific and succeed.
-Allied forces (mainly the US given the cricumstances take a long time to respond and locat due to the lack of satalite Technology.)

(June 24th 1944)
-Many many many years before my birthday to the day. Also the contact date the SDF 3 met up with the Enterprise carrier group.
-SDF-3 has enough thrust to be suprisingly sea worthy, albeit slow.
-The Reaction the SDF-3 Crew have with the carrier group are mixed. Most are well receptive but the Alien crew is a bit edgy due to the lack of tolernace the humans of this era have towards other cultures.
-The Crew agrees to allow the Enterprise to escort her to San Fransisco harbor

(July 4th 1944)
-Yet another coincidence of dates, The SDF-3 comes ashore in San Fransisco Harbor.
-The President is there in person to greet Rick, Lisa, Breeti, Exidor, The Sterilings and other important people from the crew in person.
-In the process an attempted assasination was made. The target was unknown but most believe it was the president but multiple shots were fired.
-The Crew Morns the loss of Lynn Minmei Who took a shot after bolting in front of Rick (Whom She always had feelings for as we know).

(July 5th 1944)
-Funeral Procedures commence for Lynn Minmei. Zor delivers a speech about that brings even Breeti to tears.
-July 5 is now Known as the Minmei Memorial Day. Grave reads the dates "1994-1944" First recorded person to have lived Negative 50 years on the calender. (extraplating from the series as she has her 16th B-Day in space after the construction of the city in the ship)

(August 4th 1944)
-An agreement is signed to allow the REF rip up Nazi germany unabated
-REF Froces Rout all german Strongholds rather quickly in Europe.

(Aug 6th 1944)
-Word Quickly spreads throughout Europe that the US Single handedly routed the Nazis in France and Spain in a matter of Days.
-Lack of Live reporting sends people on a frenzy trying to figure it all out.
- SDF-3 Launches a Volly of Probes into Orbit creating a makeshift satalite grid.

(Oct 16th 1944)
-Berlin stormed and brought under allied control rather quickly. This has been known as the date that major combat has ended.
-Combat still continues in russia between the russians and the germans. German supplies stop coming in and Russia Routs them out rather easily shooting all those who surrender. At this point Stallin starts continuing his advance towards Germany.
-Hitlers Body found. Cause of death Suicide (Months before it actually happened in our time)

(Oct 25th 1944)
-SDF-3 Starts large Scale maintainence and repairs. All veritechs Stationed in an uncharted Air Base in Nevada which is under construction with REF Help.
-Stallin Announces his intentions to stop germany at all costs appearently not wanting to stop fighting. Being severly Miffed wanting revenge on Germany he is bent on retaliation.
-The President standing beside Admiral Hunter send a clear message that germany is defeated and no attack will be required.
-Admiral Hunter then sends a few divisions of Cyclone riders to major locations in germany along the borders as well as assigning VF Fighters.

(Oct 30th 1944)
-Stallins Troops advance to germany only to find if guarded by soldiers in strange uniform along with motorcycle patrols.
-Stallin's orders stand for a Halloween invasion.

(oct 31st 1944)
-Stallin's Force Move in on berlin. All the remaining troops stop in prepairation for combat.
- A signal overcomes all russian radios speaking in russian is telling them to stand down or face the concequences
-The general in charge then orders the advance. Cyclone riders and REF Soldiers await the Advance. Out Numbered but well prepaired
-Next is the bloodiest battle head on battle of WW2 (aside from the normandy) as the REF Forces Hammer anyone who crosses the line.
-Anyone who turns and runs are shot by their own general as per orders from Stallin.
-The Advance is quickly brought to an end, Thousands of casualties on the russian side as the REF had only 7 injuries all being accident related.

(Nov. 8th 1944)
-Stallin is ousted by his own people who then massecre the entire parliment house down to the man. A new leader Rises out of the ashes.
-Sergey Stolitznia announce Russian Freedom from Stallins Rule and people all over Russia Cheer at the news. It doesn't matter who rules them as long as it isn't this psychopath Stallin.

(Nov 30th 1944)
-Sergy Stoliznia sends his heart felt regrets and assurse the US and Europe that there would be no more agressions towards germany now that the war is ended.
-US, Europe and REF Officals are relieved
-Conventional Engines on SDF-3 Have been repaired and the SDF-3 Launches to make base on what will become to be known as Macross Island.

(December 15th 1944)
-Ground Breaking construction starts for the construction of Macross city
-The Minmei Memorial is the first thing to be built followed by the Macross Space port.

(Jan 23rd 1945)
-Spies attempting to steal plans were foiled by REF Security agents expecting someone to try to steal Nuclear power technology.
-Security is increased reguarding Protoculture power and Robotechnology.

(Jan 26th 1945)
-Temporal extremist takes information on Nuclear technology to russia.
-Russia and Chine Both close Borders to all nations.

(April 1st 1945)
-European Nations express concerns about the silent Giants of Russia and China.

(June 7th 1945)
-Macross Island becomes the next US State directly supporting US Laws, Ideals and Structure. Capitol is Macross City.
-Advanced Communications is slowely growing in the US Military as well as factory being upgraded to produce newer War machines at a hideously slow pace
-US Military offers free training in all fields of Robotechnology as well as free room and board on Macross Island to anyone who passes Garudian Psionic scans and completes a strict loyalty test. Only Condition is 4 years military service following their training. Service includes R&D and Manufacturing and repair.

(July 5th 1945)
-A Huge Concert takes place on Macross commorating Minmei. Most US Citizens never heard of her but all REF Crew attend this concert which includes Elvis and a few other popular singers of the era.
-At the same time Breeti in temporary command of the SDF-3 Picks up a satallite signal that shows evidence of Nuclear testing in Siberia and Mongolia. If this is true then Russia and China Both have Nuclear Arms Technology.

(July 27th 1945)
-Chinese Bombers shot down before reaching Japanese Mainland.
-Followed by a 10 Megaton Nuclear explosion upon decent. 4 out of 7 Veritech fighters escaped the explosion but 3 were assumed destroyed.
-Tokyo asks the US FOr Further Assistance in defensive manuevers.
-China then Declares Vengence through Radio stating that they have more and are not affraid to use it.
-REF Officials find records of the Traitor who gave away nuclear technology. The Idiot left his plans in plain view in his quarters. A Biomaintaince engineer gave the Russians the ability to construct a nuclear facility within a year using current technology.

(July 31st)
-China and Russia Declare WW3
-Russia Bent on Vengance for taking away their victory over Germany
-China wanting to get back at Japan.

(To be continued)

[Chronicle]

any comments or ideas befor i continue? Info would be great also

[Marcethus]

Chron, great ideas man so far it looks like this would be a fun as hell campaign idea to set up and run like the wind with. Keep telling us more boss.

[taalismn]

Ouch....megaton weaponry in an era when atomic weapons were still regarded as merely an extension of conventional artillery/ordnance, rather than the absolute no-no they are regarded as nowadays

And with the fanaticism of facism and that particular brand known as Stalinism still fresh and vital (rather than buried behind several decades of hardship and memory)

The Zentraedi might well have little to do for mop-up if and when they arrive ....

[taalismn]

Hmmm....interesting note: it's stated that the 'President is standing beside Admiral Hunter' when he announces the cessation of major hostilities in Europe....

Are we presuming that advanced 21st century medicine cures Roosevelt's polio(or else he's using a light exoskeleton to stand and walk), or do matters proceed as originally, FDR dies soon after Macross attains statehood, and Truman assumes the Oval Office(Ironic, as he made the decision to drop the atomic bomb...now he has to approve use of reflex weaponry)?

[glitterboy2098]

that assumes that their is only a single timeline, and any changes to it would reverberate foreward and backwards along it.

but this would create a NEW time line, and any changes will be permanent and will only effect what comes after the cause.

so if the REF goes back, and changes history (barring any pre-destination paradox), the "future" from the point of change will be "wiped clean", and diverge from the original timeline.





like this.

original timeline.
^
l REF goes back to 1944
l
l
l
l
l
1944 > REF arrives, changes the past. ----------------------> New timeline.


to use your example, 60 years after the REF arrive and give cars, the people only have cars 60 years more advanced than the ones they were given. in the new timeline, the REF cannot go back to 1944 again, and if they do, it makes a new timeline again, and the people would just get cars 60 more years advanced than the ones they were given.


the drawback here, is that be changing history, the REF cemented them selves into the new timeline, and can never get back to their original one. if they go forward in time to, say, 2004, it will be 2004 in the new timeline, not the old.

[taalismn]

besides the technological angle, the biggest change that I see the early arrival of a full force of REF from an alternate future would be social....whether arriving relatively openly or covertly, the fully integrated, gender-blind REFers will certainly want to do some social engineering, if only to make life more comfortable for themselves and to build a stronger, better-educated labor pool....
This would include insisting that the United States(the leading technological power at the end of WW2) enact some important civil rights reforms much sooner than norm(such as not disbanding the Tuskegee air squadrons, and enacting expanded educational opportunities, especially technical and scientific training, regardless of race or gender, across the board for the populace)...The expansion of the industrial infrastructure to build the 'shadow' technological base to go into mass production later as the populace gets used to the new technologies being introduced, will keep demand for workers high...so there isn't the post-War recession and scale back of industry and conversion to domestic goods production(yes, peacetime goods production is established, but many of the defense workers...Rosie the Rivetters!....find themselves, rather than being laid off, continuing to work on new 'special projects' laying the groundwork for the later 'super tech' programs...)

[Colonel Wolfe]

My quick take on this would be that The new UEG would in the post 1945 world, work towards developing a fold capable space fleet and launches an offensive against Breetai's fleet when it arrives in Earth Space, using the SDF-3, the repaired SDF-1 (which would be rebuilt a lot faster this time) and whatever other battle craft they have built in the last 60 years. Expect the standard Veritechs to be the size and capability of the prototype veritechs you see in Macross Plus.

With the SDF-3 full fo alpha's and beta's why the hell would they make the new mecha the Size of the Old design f-14 Veritechs?
Plus with this amount of technology and future knowledge. they could intercpet the SDF-1 in orbit and have to do no repairs.

The Earthers would in short order isolate and destroy Breetai's Fleet, Khryon's Fleet and Azonia's Fleet. When Dolza's Grand Fleet arrived it would be hit with the combined might of the Earth Space Fleet, three fully functional grand cannons and of course, the Minmei attack.

Well... as Breetai is a Member of the SDF-3's Crew, I doubt he'd like to seee a former incarnation of him self murdered. and the Minmei attack is so darn stupid... it only works well in the Macross universe, where every alien race that comes to earth has a collective IQ of 7.

With the Zents out of the way, the earthers would hold back and let the Invid and Robotech Masters destroy each other at a safe distance. They would dispatch the Robotech Master's Fleet when it reached the Solar System, and present the captured Elders to the Invid as a peace offering.

nay, the Robotech master were never at war with the invid During the Life time of the Hunters (or members of the SDF-3 crew). With this Strong of a Base, and most likely a Fleet of Zentdradie to back them, the New UEG would goto the Master and Offer them a Deal such as... "We give you the Matrix you want, you ally your self with us... or we destroy the Matrix and then you'll be powerless"
(before you say it, I do not Agree with the Sentineals in the novel fomr, or comics... it was a piece of Crap, and HG is Rewriting the story)

In further negotiation with the Invid, in exchange for the Invid freeing the Sentinal Worlds, they would re-seed Opetera with the flower of life.

Even if negotiations with the invid fell through, Earth would have no flower of life bloom and thus would not be an attractive target for the Invid. Additionally the Earthers would have the protoculture matrix of the SDF-1, plus additional protoculture matrixes that would be made by REM, thus giving them the sort of limitless power supply the Master's enjoyed at their peak, making the Earthers a superior match for any alien power.


It's actually kind of boring isn't it.

Needs like another world war, but with Mecha . . .

most of this is EotC stuff i guess, Rem and all...
After what the Invid did to earth.. I imagine the peopel on the SDF-3 would imprint a negative view of the invid on the Peopel of the past .

-Wolfe.

[Chronicle]

Damn, given my A.D.D. tendancies and divorce issues, i forgot all about the post i made above...........Maybe i can expand


Wow maybe i should have extended the dates and made a gap a bit larger there lol

[FreelancerMar]

@Ashrune

I forsee only 1 problem

Where would you get all the neccessary Protoculture to Fuel all of this stuff???? Remember No Flower of life means no new Protoculture. and this also means not enough of the stuff to fuel the ammount of the machines that you are cranking out. Even with the SDF-1's Fuel supply intact, you still would not have enough of it for a fleet of that magnatude without a ready supply of the FoL to process into Protoculture. Unless these new machines used a different or alternative fuel source. Just something to think about.

[Zer0 Kay]

with all the "alternate timeline" robotechs lately, i wanted to contribute, but i'm too busy with other projects to finish my idea.

so i decided to post the concept, and have the members of this forum develop off of it. not only will it result in a unique universe, it will be more complete and detailed than i could make it.




so here is the concept:


the SDF-3 world jumped, crashlanding in 1944 earth, June 7th. (where is up to you.).

now, a few starting points.

1) Germany did not ignore jet technology between 1939 and 1945, it continued to develop it and put forth the first effective combat jet fighter in 1943, with several less effective designs procceding(basically push the development of the ME-262 to an earlier. the americans and british rush their own designs into production to counter. (but you get results like the first jet fights over korea, the jets slaughtering the prop fighters and bombers until the allied jets become available.)

2) the REF uses its advanced tech to assist the allies in winning the war. (anyone ever seen the movie Final Countdown? that kind of thing)

how would this effect WW2 and after? does the Axis manage to aquire rudimentary robotechnology? or are they crushed entirely?

when Zor's fortress crashes and the zents arrive, what happens?


its up to you.

Oh no its versions of End of the Circle!!!!

[Chris0013]

Cut to the chase....spend 10 years starting the Earth on a ship / mecha building program then in mid-1950s jump straight to Tirol. Say we have come in peace....don't make us kill you all.

Better yet....fold out with a fleet of ships and pull a rain of death on Tirol.

[jaymz]

Of evrythinghere I really like BOth Ash's and Chrons ideas. Wih a little tweaking they are definitly viable altrnate realiteis...