This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok techno, let's go at it again.

I read the words as well as you do, but you give them an extent that is purely excessive.

The rule is actually and amplification/special case of the general rules that specify no targeting a magic beyond walls or without line of sight.. As such, it means that no such barrier as specified may stand between the mage and the target the spell is meant to affect.

As applied to Teleport, it means that if my friend is held withing a giant vehicle, my mage character cannot stand next to this vehicle, (presumably within 20 ft of his friend) and cast teleport with the intent of bringing the friend away too. Dooms previous message shows the application of the rule excellently.

However, it has no bearing whatever on the relationship between the departure location and the point of arrival.

that's because it obviously works both ways. or can a mage in a cehicle cast a fire ball though the wall to hit someone outside?

Actually, I am quite surprised at having to argue so much for a point which, until I discovered some 10 days ago that some people viewed things differently, had seemed to me perfectly self evident.

as am I. to me, the fact that you can't teleport in/out of enviromentally sealed things was so self-evedent I can't comprehend how you can think otherwise.

[PigLickJF]

Ok techno, let's go at it again.

I read the words as well as you do, but you give them an extent that is purely excessive.

The rule is actually and amplification/special case of the general rules that specify no targeting a magic beyond walls or without line of sight.. As such, it means that no such barrier as specified may stand between the mage and the target the spell is meant to affect.

As applied to Teleport, it means that if my friend is held withing a giant vehicle, my mage character cannot stand next to this vehicle, (presumably within 20 ft of his friend) and cast teleport with the intent of bringing the friend away too. Dooms previous message shows the application of the rule excellently.

However, it has no bearing whatever on the relationship between the departure location and the point of arrival.

that's because it obviously works both ways. or can a mage in a cehicle cast a fire ball though the wall to hit someone outside?

I think perhaps you slightly misunderstand him. No, the mage could not cast a fireball from within a vehicle to the outside. Why? Because he does not have true line of sight, and according to the rules, you must have an unimpeded line of sight to the target of such a spell. That same limitation obviously does not hold true for teleport spells, by their very nature.

Basically, what he is saying is this- the "target" of a teleport spell is not the destination point, the target(s) is/are the caster and/or any other people/objects he wishes to teleport. As such, as long as he has an unimpeded LoS with those targets, the teleport spell can effect them. The destination of the teleport is just that- the destination. It is not the target of the spell, so whether or not there are any sort of barriers between the caster and the destination are irrelevant. Whether the target(s) can make it to the destination or not are decided only by whether they are within range, and by the chance of success of the teleport itself, as given in the spell descriptions.

Personally, I agree with that side of the argument. I see no reason why a teleporter couldn't teleport into or out of a vehicle (assuming enough space inside), environmentally sealed or not. Now the chance of success of actually making the teleport is an entirely different matter, and I would agree that it is probably not very *easy* to teleport yourself (or any other object) to the inside of a vehicle, especially if it is moving, but there is no inherent reason why such a teleport would be impossible.

PigLick

[Nekira Sudacne]

ok then, in the case of the Line of Sight, then how about if the vehicle was made out of MDC glass. then it wouldn't provide any protection at all.

[PigLickJF]

ok then, in the case of the Line of Sight, then how about if the vehicle was made out of MDC glass. then it wouldn't provide any protection at all.

It's still a barrier, though. Going by the canon, a fireball still could not be cast into or out of the vehicle, because there is still an "armored shell" between the caster and the target, and that still has nothing to do with Teleport.

Personally, I would house rule based on the spell, though. Spells would still require LoS, but physical barriers wouldn't necessarily stop all spells, only spells that "physcially" originate from the caster. Fire Ball, Fire Bolt, etc are all such spells- they shoot out from the caster towards their target. Obviously if they hit anything along the way, they don't reach their target, and instead affect that object. So in your glass vehicle scenario, the mage would cast fireball at the target, but the fireball would hit the MDC glas before reaching him.

There are many spells, however, that have no such physical aspect. With these, as long as you have LoS, I would allow them to be cast wherever you want. So if a mage wants to cast Paralysis: Lesser on the pilot of your theoretical glass Robot Vehicle, as long as he's within range, I say go for it.

PigLick

[Dr. Doom III]

ok then, in the case of the Line of Sight, then how about if the vehicle was made out of MDC glass. then it wouldn't provide any protection at all.

Well since you can't cast a fireball through a window pane unless you break it that is a poor example.

[Dr. Doom III]

Teleport has nothing to do with L.O.S., except in regard to accuracy.
The "armored shell" rule is a load of poop.

However, an environmental seal is a barrier for most magic, and teleport is also barred this way.

Some claim that teleport is dimensional and ignores all obstacles, but there is no proof of that. In fact, some high-powered barriers (a Summoner's power circle, and I think Impenetrable Barrier) can not be teleported through, which suggests that it is not dimensional in nature.

You do realize those are magical barriers right?

As for a mage wearing sealed EBA, sure they can cast lots of spells, but nothing that won't breach an environmental seal. So they can use self-powering spells, alot of sensory magic and a few offensive spells, as they ignore enviro-seals.

He can cast his spells out from his sealed EBA.
The only reason he can't cast spells at people inside Power armor, robots, APCs or what have you is because he can't see the targeted area or person. A spell like teleport does not require you to see the destination point. It just helps.

[Zer0 Kay]

So nobody has asked what if the environmental seal is broken or the hull is breached is the mage then able to teleport anything he wants in?

Do you turn into a gas when you teleport? Maybe magic is all protoplasm?

So if your phased first are you then able to t-port miles away into a environmentally sealed target? Come on if the real reason you can't t-port into a sealed environment is because your a protoplasm then if you teleport after phasing aren't you a phased protoplasm?

So if you can't teleport anything into a sealed environment there goes the easy way of packing you lunches into zip lock bags.

Has anyone considered developing the Glitter Boys anchoring system into a weapon. I mean it is able to anchor the GB into ANY surface each time before it fires. Use an item made out of one of those that latches onto the external side of an all anti-magic sealed environment and burns a single hole through the hull. Voila it's breached and no longer environmentally sealed. Hello Mr. Skull Walker meet my new armor cracker I'll just t-port it onto the outside of your armor and now I hope you enjoy your Fusion Block, A-Bomb(adult comic not WOMD) or even just this handy dandy Plush Wolverine. Brought to you by, UMS Universal Magic Service when you absolutely positively have to get it there right now with out anyone knowing till it's too late.

[Dr. Doom III]

That's speculation, and unreasonable speculation at that. You can't cast a spell on a SAMAS pilot because you can't see him, but you can cast the same spell on them if they open the environmental seal. It has nothing to do with line of sight. That spell can't be cast on someone in sealed EBA (body armor) even if it's skin-tight (read it up... it just has to be environmental)... so then someone dressed like Snake Eyes from GI Joe is impervious to most magic? I have my doubts.

That's speculation.
Tell me where it says you can cast spells on him if the seal is broke?
If the helmet is off you can see his head and therefore cast at him but you still can't cast spells on him if there is a hairline crack in the armor.
Where does it say EBA is a barrier to more then a handful of spells which have it listed in their descriptions?

[Zer0 Kay]

That's speculation, and unreasonable speculation at that. You can't cast a spell on a SAMAS pilot because you can't see him, but you can cast the same spell on them if they open the environmental seal. It has nothing to do with line of sight. That spell can't be cast on someone in sealed EBA (body armor) even if it's skin-tight (read it up... it just has to be environmental)... so then someone dressed like Snake Eyes from GI Joe is impervious to most magic? I have my doubts.

That's speculation.
Tell me where it says you can cast spells on him if the seal is broke?
If the helmet is off you can see his head and therefore cast at him but you still can't cast spells on him if there is a hairline crack in the armor.
Where does it say EBA is a barrier to more then a handful of spells which have it listed in their descriptions?

Do you guys remember what this post is about?? If it's line of sight this and line of sight that and not EBA then how does T-porting work? You have to be within LOS? Don't think so. So then it must be the environmental seal. SO AGAIN, if the armor is breached or the seals broken and is no longer environmentally sealed can you then T-port something in?

How much of the environment do you have to be able to invision? I can pretty well invision the lap of a CS Dead Boy Armor. Does that mean I can teleport a bomb into any CS Dead Boys Lap. If not how does one T-port into any specific yet identical Giant Robot?

[Dr. Doom III]

Do you guys remember what this post is about?? If it's line of sight this and line of sight that and not EBA then how does T-porting work? You have to be within LOS? Don't think so. So then it must be the environmental seal. SO AGAIN, if the armor is breached or the seals broken and is no longer environmentally sealed can you then T-port something in?

How much of the environment do you have to be able to invision? I can pretty well invision the lap of a CS Dead Boy Armor. Does that mean I can teleport a bomb into any CS Dead Boys Lap. If not how does one T-port into any specific yet identical Giant Robot?

An environmental seal is no barrier to a teleport. Sealed or unsealed doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is knowing where you're going.

*edit*
If you're familiar with the location then you have a decent chance but the odds something could be where you teleport are pretty good.
Teleporting into the back of an APC could work great or you could find yourself stuck in a box of cargo. You pays your money you takes your chances.

[Svartalf]

because it obviously works both ways. or can a mage in a cehicle cast a fire ball though the wall to hit someone outside?

Actually, I am quite surprised at having to argue so much for a point which, until I discovered some 10 days ago that some people viewed things differently, had seemed to me perfectly self evident.

as am I. to me, the fact that you can't teleport in/out of enviromentally sealed things was so self-evedent I can't comprehend how you can think otherwise.

Nek, it Does work both ways ... a mage sitting inside a titan bot and wishing to abandon ship could teleport the bot crew with him, but nobody outside.

However, he could most definitely teleport out of that bot.

the rule says precisely that no mage can cast a spell at a target separated from him by a barrier. however, such barrieres have no bearing whatever on the effect of the spell itself. If it says it can take you anywhere within 300 miles/lvl ... then it can, the fact that you start within a giant bot, or want to go to your cabin in the party ATV just doesn't matter..

And if you get back to the environmental seal thing. I'll demand support. The rule, as it is , is worded as it is. I have my contention that many people give it much more bearing than it is meant to. You, on the other hand, are even calling on stuff that is no where in the rules, and call *taht* self evident? If it was so, well ... why is teleport a teleport rather than "instantly going through open spaces without possibility to go through solid matter"?

Sorry, but if I am on one side of a mountain, and wish to go home on the other side, my teleport will get me right through that mountain, not jump me above it. I could teleport home even from a sealed room under the mountain, even if all the exits were on the wrong side and going through the tunnels implied crossing a distance greater than the spell range...

[Svartalf]

ok then, in the case of the Line of Sight, then how about if the vehicle was made out of MDC glass. then it wouldn't provide any protection at all.

I don't remember if there are rules about casting spells through closed windows, but I'd say that MD glass, as part of a giant vehicle, would still constitute a barrier as per the Armored Shell rule

[Svartalf]

EDITD OUT
as having become useless.

[Svartalf]

Do you guys remember what this post is about?? If it's line of sight this and line of sight that and not EBA then how does T-porting work? You have to be within LOS? Don't think so. So then it must be the environmental seal. SO AGAIN, if the armor is breached or the seals broken and is no longer environmentally sealed can you then T-port something in?

How much of the environment do you have to be able to invision? I can pretty well invision the lap of a CS Dead Boy Armor. Does that mean I can teleport a bomb into any CS Dead Boys Lap. If not how does one T-port into any specific yet identical Giant Robot?

Actually ... that's precisely the point.
a) you cast spells only at targets that are witin LoS and not beyond walls or "Armored Shells"
b) the effect proper of a Teleport spell has nothing at all to do with that rule and is not affected by it. If you know the destination point, you can get there wherever in range it is and no matter where you start from, provided you can visualize the place.

Environmental seal stuff is something that, to my knowledge, has no official support, and is either a rationalisation for the Armored Shell rule or a last ditch, untenable argument to try and deny the truth or my theory.

BTW ... you cannot normally teleport anybody or anything into occupied armor. there just is no room inside for it. Giant bots or vehicles are something else, though.

[Svartalf]

I'm sorry but the target of T-port is the destination. Power Armor, Robots, and Vehicles block ANY spell not because of line of site issues, but because of the effect such things have on all magic.

I guess I'm just surprised that people can see the words "Any Magic" and claim that having it effect... "Any Magic" is an extension of the rules that doesn't apply.

Oddly enough I had this arguement over a year and half or so ago on this board and it was finally solved when I emailed Palladium for their official answer. Their reply back was that t-port was indeed stopped by power armor, robots and vehicles. However I have a new computer now, and don't have the email. Strangely enough people still weren't happy when Palladium answered the question on the side of "No", and said they were "wrong".

Oh well.... at least Palladium knows the correct answer.

Sorry ... but, for the purpose of the Armored Shell rule at least, the target of a teleport spell is who or whatever is to be ported., NOT the place of departure or destination.

Are you arguing that a mage could port inside a vehicle (anything from a giant bot to a whole starship) he was in, but not out? Also, supposing a high level mage casting a teleport spell, with a couple friends in power armor nearby. Supposing his weight allowance is enough to take the whole party, power armor and all... would you rule that, as he casts the spells, the PA suits follow, but not the guys inside because the Armored Shell interferes with the magic?

Now, beside parroting the rule (which it seems you don't reallly understand), could you tell me how it is a teleport spell can go through miles of stone and metal, but not cross an armored shell? I've given you a perfectly viable and logical interpretation, if you don't agree, please give me another.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Now, beside parroting the rule (which it seems you don't reallly understand), could you tell me how it is a teleport spell can go through miles of stone and metal, but not cross an armored shell? I've given you a perfectly viable and logical interpretation, if you don't agree, please give me another.

Because the Palladium magic system was not properly adjusted for Rifts. There's your viable and logical interpretation.

[Svartalf]

which is why the rule as stated in BoM could not be made clearer and more precise? The game had been playtested for a decade when that one was written... it that's not enough for the game to get over its growing pains... I think I should just dump it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

which is why the rule as stated in BoM could not be made clearer and more precise? The game had been playtested for a decade when that one was written... it that's not enough for the game to get over its growing pains... I think I should just dump it.

It's perfectly clear as is.

[Dr. Doom III]

I'm sorry but the target of T-port is the destination. Power Armor, Robots, and Vehicles block ANY spell not because of line of site issues, but because of the effect such things have on all magic.

I guess I'm just surprised that people can see the words "Any Magic" and claim that having it effect... "Any Magic" is an extension of the rules that doesn't apply.

Oddly enough I had this arguement over a year and half or so ago on this board and it was finally solved when I emailed Palladium for their official answer. Their reply back was that t-port was indeed stopped by power armor, robots and vehicles. However I have a new computer now, and don't have the email. Strangely enough people still weren't happy when Palladium answered the question on the side of "No", and said they were "wrong".

Oh well.... at least Palladium knows the correct answer.

Can you quote for me where it says any magic?

[Svartalf]

I'm sorry but the target of T-port is the destination. Power Armor, Robots, and Vehicles block ANY spell not because of line of site issues, but because of the effect such things have on all magic.

I guess I'm just surprised that people can see the words "Any Magic" and claim that having it effect... "Any Magic" is an extension of the rules that doesn't apply.

Oddly enough I had this arguement over a year and half or so ago on this board and it was finally solved when I emailed Palladium for their official answer. Their reply back was that t-port was indeed stopped by power armor, robots and vehicles. However I have a new computer now, and don't have the email. Strangely enough people still weren't happy when Palladium answered the question on the side of "No", and said they were "wrong".

Oh well.... at least Palladium knows the correct answer.

Can you quote for me where it says any magic?

he's referring to the wording of the Armored Shell rule, as it appears on p 21 of the BoM under the question "what about power armor or vehicles/giant robots"

[Dr. Doom III]

he's referring to the wording of the Armored Shell rule, as it appears on p 21 of the BoM under the question "what about power armor or vehicles/giant robots"

Thanks.

Reading it I see no reason why.
My usual complaint with the official Palladium FAQ.
Also I see that it says you can’t affect the people or things inside. Teleport does neither.

Doing further reading I know why.
Pg. 166 in the Rifts main book holds the key.

The Magic Term Line of Vision.
...The target/victim must be within (the casters) sight. To be affected. If the target is not seen, is totally obscured by obstacles (like inside a robot vehicle), darkness, invisibility, or just not seen by the spell caster (hiding, behind him, beyond normal vision), the magic cannot be used...

So we see that you can't target what you can't see. You can't see inside the vehicle you can't target anything inside. You can't see out you can't target anything outside. A magical cloud of gas cast outside a robot would naturally not affect the people inside the bot and since the inside is not visible you can't cast one inside unless you're inside too.

Now let's look at the two teleport spells.

Teleport lesser
...can be instantly transported from the location of the spell weaver to any location miles away. The only requirements are (touch) and that the location of where it is being sent is known to him...

Nothing about having to see where it's going.

Teleport superior
...To teleport, the mage must have a mental picture of his destination...

No sight needed again.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm sorry but the target of T-port is the destination. Power Armor, Robots, and Vehicles block ANY spell not because of line of site issues, but because of the effect such things have on all magic.

I guess I'm just surprised that people can see the words "Any Magic" and claim that having it effect... "Any Magic" is an extension of the rules that doesn't apply.

Oddly enough I had this arguement over a year and half or so ago on this board and it was finally solved when I emailed Palladium for their official answer. Their reply back was that t-port was indeed stopped by power armor, robots and vehicles. However I have a new computer now, and don't have the email. Strangely enough people still weren't happy when Palladium answered the question on the side of "No", and said they were "wrong".

Oh well.... at least Palladium knows the correct answer.

ok so why doesn't a house block t-port? or a mages own tower? or chi-town? is it because the Power Armor, Robots, and Vehicles are moving? is it because their sealed why why WHY. Don't say line of sight and don't say game balance.

[Zer0 Kay]

Now, beside parroting the rule (which it seems you don't reallly understand), could you tell me how it is a teleport spell can go through miles of stone and metal, but not cross an armored shell? I've given you a perfectly viable and logical interpretation, if you don't agree, please give me another.

Because the Palladium magic system was not properly adjusted for Rifts. There's your viable and logical interpretation.

Not adjusted for Rifts... Your right since Rifts Earth is the most magic saturated dimension then all standard t-port spells should be interplanetary, all t-port superior should dimensional and dimensional t-port should be uber dt-port... ohh that's how Atlantis got t-ported back to Earth.

[Svartalf]

In other words, Doom, the rules are somewhat contradictory and you don't like Palladium's answer, so you're going with your own rule.

Sorry ... but it's not Palladium's answer. Palladiums word is ambiguous enough that some believe the Armored Shell rule to be the be all and end all of magic, others to be more specialised. If I had an official ruling on the subject, I don't know if my games would follow it, but I'd at least know if my ruling were a house rule or not.

[Dr. Doom III]

In other words, Doom, the rules are somewhat contradictory and you don't like Palladium's answer, so you're going with your own rule.

No.
They give no explanation and the only thing written that gives an explanation is Line of Vision.
Any other reason is speculation.

[Svartalf]

Until they fix the FAQ, you're just going to have to take our word for it, I guess. I remember quite clearly that Palladium has said that you cannot teleport objects like fusion blocks into vehicles, PA, or robots.

That ruling is doubly irrelevant for my purposes.
a) it rules only for teleporting *objects* *into* somewhere else ... not about a person into a well known vehicle or armor sui, or out a a giant bot or vehicle.t.

b) that ruling draws upon two basic facts : that you must know the place you are teleporting an object into, and that the target space must be unoccupied, both of which are under no contestation

[Dustin Fireblade]

Now, beside parroting the rule (which it seems you don't reallly understand), could you tell me how it is a teleport spell can go through miles of stone and metal, but not cross an armored shell? I've given you a perfectly viable and logical interpretation, if you don't agree, please give me another.

Because the Palladium magic system was not properly adjusted for Rifts. There's your viable and logical interpretation.

Not adjusted for Rifts... Your right since Rifts Earth is the most magic saturated dimension then all standard t-port spells should be interplanetary, all t-port superior should dimensional and dimensional t-port should be uber dt-port... ohh that's how Atlantis got t-ported back to Earth.

Maybe I'm just tired, I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Anyway I'm very serious in my reply, but thats a whole new thread that I have no desire to get into.

[Dr. Doom III]

But WHY can't you? Other than for game balance. If my mage can see in the window of an armored vehicle, why can I Mystic Portal the wall and throw in a grenade but can't teleport the same grenade in? Why?

Because you can.

[Dr. Doom III]

Because that's the way the people who made the game said so... I can't give you a why. It's like asking why does a sun go supernova with only a 3rd grade education understanding of science. ((We just don't have all the required science and understanding of the system because it's just not fully spelled out... much like any rule involving magic.. we can only guess as to why the author choose the way they did.))

I asked the Game Designers.. and 1 and 1/2 years ago... they said t-port was indeed blocked... my true guess really does come down to game balance... but they didn't inform me as to why they choose that, they only answered the question as to if it did apply, and thus prevented the t-porting of the fusion block into the robot.

I can and did give a reason. Can you or anyone find another written anywhere?
By the way Rodney Stott who was in charge of the old FAQ is not a game designer. At least not for Palladium to my knowledge.

[Svartalf]

Because that's the way the people who made the game said so... I can't give you a why. It's like asking why does a sun go supernova with only a 3rd grade education understanding of science. ((We just don't have all the required science and understanding of the system because it's just not fully spelled out... much like any rule involving magic.. we can only guess as to why the author choose the way they did.))

I asked the Game Designers.. and 1 and 1/2 years ago... they said t-port was indeed blocked... my true guess really does come down to game balance... but they didn't inform me as to why they choose that, they only answered the question as to if it did apply, and thus prevented the t-porting of the fusion block into the robot.

May I ask precisely who you asked in that regard and who answered?
May I also ask whether your question might not have included self limiting factors (like porting a grenade into an occupied PA or bot) that would void the answer's validity for the question now at hand.

the FAQ has always been suspect because the questions never went straight to the designers or the people who must know (Kevin, CJC etc), and thus only represented one GM's opinion and had strictly no official character... so you will, please forgive me for being somewhat doubtful.

I'm going away for 10-15 days, I'll see how the stuff has evolved when I come back.

[Dr. Doom III]

I'm not sure who I asked... it was like Palladiumorsomething@something.Something. It was an email to some sort of ask your own question link on this site.

The person took about 2 weeks to answer me back, again I don't remember his or her name other then they answered me back with Palladium something in their email.

I posted the email on the board 1 1/2 years or so ago on this board.

No I don't have it anymore... as I thought the first time I posted it would be enough, and I now have a new computer. I wish I had saved it but I really had no idea people would still be argueing about this...

The question was to the effect of.....

"There recently has been a great debate on the forums about a tactic that Tolkeen could have employeed ((or any mage for that matter)) against the CS or any other high tech power. That is T-porting fusion blocks or even themselves into CS Vehicles or Robots in order to take out the crew or capture the vehicle. However on page 21 of the book of magic it suggests that all spells are prevented from effecting items or people inside of robot, vehicle or power armor. My question is... Does T-Port follow that rule, or can you t-port things into Robots, Vehicles or Power Armor."

The answer was...

"The rule on page 21 applies fully to T-port. You can not Teleport anything into a Robot, Vehicle, or Power Armor."

You sent it to the FAQ.
Rodney Stott was running the FAQ and that's where your answer came from.

Regardless of where it came from it was still wrong.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Is Mr. Stott endorsed by Kevin Siembieda? If so then then it should be valid.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Is Mr. Stott endorsed by Kevin Siembieda? If so then then it should be valid.

I was under the impression that responses to the FAQ were to be considered official.

That was my thought as well. I was wondering why others would not consider it such.

[Dr. Doom III]

Official but far to often wrong and or incomplete.

Half answers and one word responses were the norm.
I can get away with it because I'm an arrogant SOB (That’s my shtick ) but I also don't have official sanction and therefore don't need to be as complete as I think someone with official sanction should be.
If I were running it I would feel the need to help the person asking the question understand my answer and thereby better understand the game.

But that's just me.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Official but far to often wrong and or incomplete.

Half answers and one word responses were the norm.
I can get away with it because I'm an arrogant SOB (That’s my shtick ) but I also don't have official sanction and therefore don't need to be as complete as I think someone with official sanction should be.
If I were running it I would feel the need to help the person asking the question understand my answer and thereby better understand the game.

But that's just me.

I agree. Sadly its all they got.

So now just need to accept Technomancer at his word regarding the email and reply.

[Dr. Doom III]

I agree. Sadly its all they got.

So now just need to accept Technomancer at his word regarding the email and reply.

I do.
It's just wrong.

[Dr. Doom III]

That's your opinion. Which is fine.

At least I have reasons for my answer printed in a book and until Rodney gets on here and shows his work that answer is just his.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think another thing that gets people is how can you teleport though a mountan and not a APC. well, you DON'T teleport THOUGH the mountan.

you teleport AROUND it, or though holes and such.

but there is no way to teleport anound or though an enviromentally sealed vehicle.

[Dr. Doom III]

I think another thing that gets people is how can you teleport though a mountan and not a APC. well, you DON'T teleport THOUGH the mountan.

you teleport AROUND it, or though holes and such.

but there is no way to teleport anound or though an enviromentally sealed vehicle.

No you don't.
You completely bypass the mountain and the skin of the vehicle.
First you are here then you are there. There is no traveling through the space in between.

[Dr. Doom III]

It's an answer based on statements in the books. One that you simply choose to not agree with.

Such as?
No one has posted any kind of reason why a person cannot cast a spell at someone in a bot but Doom.

[Vrykolas2k]

Okay here goes.
I think that if the person has a photo or has been in the environmental "structure" in question, then yes he/ she can teleport there. But I wouldn't allow them to 'port into a similar structure because of differences the crew is likely to have made with its innards or whatever lol.

[Dr. Doom III]

Such as?
No one has posted any kind of reason why a person cannot cast a spell at someone in a bot but Doom.

Well, I did say this:

Yet the rules say that vehicles and giant robots form a barrier to psionics directed against those inside. GMG p.86. It also says the same is true of individuals locked behind a closed door. It further notes the few exceptions to the rule.

If vehicles and giant robots form a barrier against psionics because of their enclosed nature, I would think that they also form a barrier against magic for the same reason as magic and psionics are simply different ways of manipulating supernatural energy.

Well actually

The Game Masters Guide clearly states that Psionics work though all armor, EBA, and power armor. people inside Robots and vehicles are also vunerable but ONLY if the psychic knows EXSACTLY where inside they are.

only purely phisical maifestations, such as psi-sword, mind bold, pyrokensis, ect, are stopped by armor.

use mentally possess others in the guy in the Glitter Boy? sure, go ahead

And Nekira is in your camp.
So the only difference between Psionics and magic is that the mage mostly has to see where he is casting and the Psionic just has to know, kind of like knowing the place you teleport to.

[Dr. Doom III]

well, I'm not sure that flies either, as you can't teleport thru a force field in Rifts. 1

this alone gives me the impression that the intervening barrier comes into play -- does it make sense? -- no. I think it was a "game" decision, following Rift's often convoluted and twisted "logic."

1. Rifts Dimension Book: Phase World p32, option #1 under "Dealing with Phase Powers"

But a force field is a clear exception.
It can stop a teleport inside. Nothing about airlock doors or anything else.

[Dr. Doom III]

Doom, I'd have to say that Nekira misread the GMG then or it says something different on a different page than the one I listed.

Page 86 RGMG
#2 and #3

[Dr. Doom III]

I don't have my books available at the moment, so I'll go back and reread it later... as that's the page I quoted.

Well to save time it says stuff like armor and power armor are no barrier (#2) and that for bots you need to see someone in a window and such (#3).

[Dr. Doom III]

Pardon me if I wait to reread it myself.

If you feel you must.

[Dr. Doom III]

I do, because I am pretty sure that I correctly remember what I read before that it reinforced the "armored shell" rule with the exception of things like attacks on the armor/robot itself.

I see where you went wrong.
You stopped reading after the first paragraph of #3 and didn't even read #2.
The first paragraph says "generally" and then it explains why and gives exceptions.

[Zer0 Kay]

If vehicles and giant robots form a barrier against psionics because of their enclosed nature, I would think that they also form a barrier against magic for the same reason as magic and psionics are simply different ways of manipulating supernatural energy.

ISP and PPE are different kinds of supernatural energy. Saying that is akin to saying if my armor protects me against fire I'm safe from electrocution too.

I hold that T-Port makes space, and obstacles in that space, to be irrelevant. If MDC and environ seals are such barriers, why doesn't everyone make tents of MDC cloth, pressurize them. and feel safe as a bug in a rug. If all CS houses were light armor plates and environ sealled, all its citzens would feel safer.

I still argue that the knowledge of location or, instead of that, LOS is key and that all we have to assume is that, aware of this, the CS and others like them, make all viewports (including armor eye slits) polarized or one way glass so no one can casually see inside. Also makes them even more "faceless" too.

I'd guess that Chi-Town can be environmentally sealed in order to prevent NBC agents from endangering the population. They may be pawns but their Prosek's pawns. Besides I don't think it could be classified as an Arcology if it wasn't environmentally sealed (not sure). Dunscon Teleported in their not to mention I think it was into a High Command Meeting Room. I'm sure those are Environmentally Sealed.

[Temporalmage]

Dunscon Teleported in their not to mention I think it was into a High Command Meeting Room. I'm sure those are Environmentally Sealed.

Um, not quite true. On page 10 of the FOM, He teleported as he left. And besides, that was quite some time ago, when the Coalition was a fledgling nation, and Chi-town probably wasn't very large or well built yet. (remember Chi-town was almost demolished during the 1st mage war.) This may not be a relevant point to you...but it is to me.

[Zer0 Kay]

Dunscon Teleported in their not to mention I think it was into a High Command Meeting Room. I'm sure those are Environmentally Sealed.

Um, not quite true. On page 10 of the FOM, He teleported as he left. And besides, that was quite some time ago, when the Coalition was a fledgling nation, and Chi-town probably wasn't very large or well built yet. (remember Chi-town was almost demolished during the 1st mage war.) This may not be a relevant point to you...but it is to me.

Point taken I guess he could have left the door open (not that I agree with the ES issue) and no I don't remember. Still would you or would you not make the assumption that as an Arcology that Chi Town is Environmentally Sealed or capable if need be?