Using Technology Effectively: CS vs Tolkeen

[R Ditto]

Fun fact.
Growing an uber army of dog boys means you need to have a ton of facilities to house, raise and even feed that uber army of dog boys. You can't just pull them and the resources needed to make/support them out of where the sun don't shine.

Magic users can literally pull food out of thin air, the CS can't and has a ton more people to feed in the first place. This limits how much the CS can 'grow' as far as mutant animals. It also means that trying to fire bomb 'enemy' farm land might not work, and backfire politically because of trying to purposely endanger those who are not involved in the war.

A mix of robots, dog boys, other mutant animals and cyborgs (perhaps even juicers) might be a bit better than just mass producing dog boys.
Things like the kill hounds and ursa warriors would be handy in larger numbers. Robots are handy since they don't sleep, and cyborgs don't need much to 'eat'.

One gruesome idea is mass producing specially 'tailored' dog boys and other mutant animals in sensory deprivation tanks and using VR type systems to train them, then simply turn them into borgs. Having never really experienced various sensations when growing up, they should have minimal negative psychological impact from being turned into full conversion borgs.

I can also see an army of cheaper Skelebots made with a purpose humanoid shape/size and programming to put all those spare SAMAS to use. They would draw power from the SAMAS and not really need their own power, except maybe some reserve power supplies should they need to continue a fight after the SAMAS gets scrapped/destroyed.
Another alternative would be to 'rebuild' the spare SAMAS, simply adding robot parts where the pilot should go. Using cheaper/easier to make materials (since the SAMAS is already strong, has MDC armor and has a nuke power source) means many SAMAS could probably be retrofitted faster than regular skelebots could be made, and at a much cheaper cost.

1.6 million SAMAS units that never need to sleep or get out of their armor would be a force to be reckoned with.

One thing I do wonder about. Why the CS doesn't have something like the SNARLS system in Rifts Japan. It seems to me that the RSCG should have come up with something like that.
Stuff like Invis Sup has a flaw... it doesn't say that the spell can hide itself... Sure, the person affected can't be detected, but the spell itself is something that anything like the SNARLS system, a Psi-Stalker or other Mutant Animal should be able to detect as being 'active' magic.

While Tolkeen could technically hand the CS its own rear, by all regards, the CS should be capable of doing similar to Tolkeen. I guess it comes down to what's being used and how effectively it's being used.

Oh, for a deadly weapon, a weapon of great range and power exists in the CS... well, two of them to be exact.
The First is the 155mm Electromagnetic Howitzer that had its stats left out of the CS Navy book. The other is a long range, moderate power gun stuck on something that isn't a front line vehicle. I'm referring to the C-30R on the CS Command Car in the CWC. 6D6 from a 30 round burst, a wo mile range (a few hundred feet shy of a GB's BG) and a nice 80 burst payload.... That's a 25% reduction in rounds shot but only a 10% reduction in damage and a x5 increase in range... what kind of person puts that kind of a gun on a command car that will rarely see direct combat and not put it on front line combat vehicles?
That gun should be a standard vehicle rail gun.

Used with forward observers, the weapons could cause much chaos. All it takes is for a lone psi-stalker or sneaky special forces to spot an enemy and give a rough position and head for cover as a bunch of the long ranged guns lay waste to the target area at range. The weapon is practically like a lower powered version of a GB's BG as far as range.

[LunarYoma]

The thread dealing with using magic to put a hurting to the CS turned out so well that I thought I'd come at the problem from another angle.

You're Karl Prosek. You want to bend Tolkeen over hand stick a fusion block where the sun doesn't shine, but you don't want a smoking wasteland left behind when the conflict is finally resolved.

How would you use your superior technology to effect such a victory? What tactics would you use to counter Tolkeen's arcane advantage? Attaching bionics to mages doesn't count.

Well, 1st thing is i wouldnt atagonize tolkeen. Id set up a neurtal/buffer zone that is 10+ miles thick & goes on east & west(in between tolkeen & the CS about a mile past actual CS borders) for about 150 to 300 miles in both directions. Lay massive amount of ground sensors all along the the buffer zone. About a half a mile from tolkeens side of the buffer zone you have a mine field that is a mile thick(filled with anti personnel & anti vechile mines). on both sides you have about 2000 ft thickness of multiple MDC razor wire & chain link fenses that stand 8 to 12 ft tall.

On the tolkeen side you display warning signs every 500ft to 1000ft in english, spanish, & dragonese that says"WARNING Coalition States neutral zone, Mine Field ahead. All tresspassors will be shot on site!!!"

then about a half to 1 mile from the CS's side of the buffer zone you will have a 10 ft thick 20ft tall wall with weapons placements(rail guns, mini missles & short/medium range missles). They are place every 1000ft.

In between the wall & the mine field you have skelbots & dogboy squads patrolling the grounds. The wall will be patrolled by dogboys & skelbots, & the weapons placements will be manned by CS grunts.


Send a message to tolkeen that anyone trying to cross the buffer zone will be shot on site & any massive movements across the buffer zone will be declaired an act of war.

For those people/things that try to cross the buffer zone & are killed, if there is any bodys left, put them on pikes(minus the head) & place them in front of the chain link fences on the tolkeen side of the buffer zone to act as a visual warning to ant would be tress passors.


Along the buffer zone on the CS side you will have minature bases/ large out posts placed every 10 to 20 miles apart(5 to 20 miles from the buffer) zone inside coalition territory), that have 1 to 3 batallions of skelbots, 20+ SAMAS &/or other PA, 3 to 6 squads of dogboys, 1 special forces squad & 1 regular grund squad.

Further in(about 50 miles from the buffer zone) every 50 to 75 miles you will have a regular CS base, but with 2 divisions of skelbots stationed at each one. They will act as an early repelling/delaying force if the tolkeen forces should break through the buffer zone. All these bases will be act as fire bases for long range missles for any breach in the buffer zone.


For all towns & cities with in 100 miles of the buffer zone you will see a perment increase of the CS military.

If a breach occures(which means Tolkeen has delaired war on the CS), then the CS will mobilize special foces units to get close to tolkeen & fire off missles armed with various biological viruses. once this happens the CS will proceed to have the infiltrators in tolkeen set off bombs(both standard & billogical bombs ) in very public areas, while others try to take out impotrtant figures of tolkeen throgh assination.

IF war is declaired the CS will begin deep surgical strikes in to tolkeen held areas, aimed at terrorizing the masses & eliminating important figures.

Do not fully mobilize to move into Tolkeen held land, repair the breach in the buffer zone, increase the skelbot & dogboy patrols 10 fold between the mine field & the wall in the buffer zone. Air units will do numerious fly bys over the buffer zone every day.

At the mini bases/large out posts, station 3 to 6 divisions of skelbots, 1 batallion of air units, 1 batallion of ground PA's, 1 division of dogboys, & 1 batallion of grunts.

Along the entire wall a skelbot will be station every 20 to 40ft to act as additional lookouts.


If tolkeen forces decide to take pot shots at the CS units in the buffer zone, the area will be triangulated by spotters & ground sensors & bombared with missles. then checked out with SAMAS.


Main aim isto keep Tolkeen contained beyond CS borders while surgical strikes are done in Tolkeen held areas. Slowly try to take out important figures, while you attack the populas of people with biological weapons(to keep the mages busy trying to heal the sick, that further keeps the mages freom attacking the CS for awhile).


IF tolkeen does not move to make war on the CS, then keep them at bay beyond the buffer zone, but do not send in units for terror missions.

Tolkeen & the CS will be declaired enemies, but if tolkeen doesnt cross the buffer zone, the CS will do nothing toi tolkeen.


Try to keep this up for as long as possible(maybe 30 to 100+ years if the CS is lucky), to give the CS time to further expand & increase their technological level. Then the CS will be in a better position to invade tolkeen if a dipomatic solution does not happen between the CS & Tolkeen.

[Shin Kenshiro]

The CS wants to settle Tolkeen... so Nukes are out of the question.

Also I would trade any day of the week to have tolkeens mage forces casting feeder spells over combat duty. The CS never tried to destroy crop lands in the SoT and Tolkeen's resources were already stretched tight trying to feed people.

I agree with TM on this one. Casting the food spells only gives you bread and water. While yes, you can live off that, without any protein, your muscles deteriorate, and having a bunch of people casting bread spells beats having these same mages casting call lightnings on CS troops.

[Borast]

Folks...are we not forgetting that by fiat of god (KS), Tolkien has essentially been wiped off the map? That the CS with it's reality-challenged army (ie: no F'n way the CS as is can support it) has already torched it, and even now patrol it's highways and byways?

RIP...an idea consumed by overwhelming hate - Tolkien

[Daniel Stoker]

The CS wants to settle Tolkeen... so Nukes are out of the question.

Also I would trade any day of the week to have tolkeens mage forces casting feeder spells over combat duty. The CS never tried to destroy crop lands in the SoT and Tolkeen's resources were already stretched tight trying to feed people.

I thought the CS did try to nuke Tolkeen, though...

They did, and Tolkeen had a rift open up to swallow the nukes.


Daniel Stoker

[Nekira Sudacne]

1) Having only book 4 of SoT, which one mentions the bloody nukes?

the very first one.

the CS tried to destroy Tolkeen quickly by nuking it into oblviion, however, the mages of Tolkeen opened up Rifts that swolloed them.

where they went. . . no one knows. but they didn't hit tolkeen, and that's what counts.

[Ed]

Those were tactical nuclear weapons, available where ever fine LRMs are sold. Strategic nuclear weapons were rules out as an option for the Tolkeen conflict.

Best tactics- more Mark IX LRMS and AC-10's. Send skelebots in to scout the ground and provide FAC. Use Psi-Bat to disable and assassinate high level mage concentrations. Use ground troops to fix the location of Tolkeen forces and saturate the area with high damage missile fire.

[Borast]

Ed...nice to see another Lazarus Long fan...

However, I'm sure Mr. Heinlein might like if you attribute the quote in your .sig to the appropriate character (and book & page if you really wanted to be anal about it! )

[Borast]

Mass bombardment, day and night, from long range by artillery and missiles. Shield don't last forever, psychology plays a factor, etc.

They do when they aer powered by not one, but three ley-lines...except when certain sequences of things occur (which is what brought down the shield in the SoT series)...

Bio weapons. Flu, pneumonia, plague.

Problem...psychics and mages can heal 'em with minimal effort.

Blanket transmit accross all channels and frequencies combinations of "black" noise and propoganda, crippling all but mage and psi communications.

Not as effective as you might think. The closer the receiving station is to the "good" transmitter, the less likely your propoganda gets through...the straight-jacket of the inverse-square law at work. Incidentally, that's also how alot of little "pirate stations" operate. They take a freq that the transmitter tower is quite a distance away, and use their own little station to co-opt the freq in a small radius. It also has no effect on hard-wired systems such as cable tv, or directional p2p transmissions (laser / microwave / etc). Additionally, military "packet" transmissions are almost impossible to block.

Mine all approaches, from the air as much as possible, to prevent conventional forces from assisting ond trade from getting in. Blow up all approaching roads and bridges at the same time.

Missile batteries...high-energy heavy weapons...air elementals... That takes care of the aerial approach.
Earth elementals...FABs...telekinesis...others... That takes care of the mines that actually make it.
Hover craft don't need roads or bridges, except over gorges, and I don't think that there are many of these in the middle of a prairie...unless Tolkien was placed in the SD bad lands...

Cluster bombs and fusion block bomblettes.

Effective, but not necessarily as effective as you might think. The advantage is that they overwhelm defences, but they don't generally all get through an active defence. Also, I can't remember the spell name(s), but there are those that will prevent the bombs from going off...

Mass destruction of corresponding ley line nexus sites wherever there are known places of power.

You can't...physically impossible, and since the Coalition does not use mages, they couldn't "disrupt" the nexus by preventing the ley-lines from crossing. As for a pyramid on a nexus, properly designed...
a: you'll never know it's there.
b: you won't have a hope of damaging it if you do via conventional means. (Sources differ, but I've seen descriptions indicating a pyramid cannot be damaged once complete, and descriptions indicating it simply has tens of thousands of M.D.C.

Equip the avenues of the ley lines with auto guns and anti-aircraft missle systems to automatically engage users of Wingboards and such around the target.

The engineers installing the guns likely won't survive emplacement of one or two...

Small robot drones carrying fusion blocks. Not intelligent, cheap, fast. Waves of little bombots. (Brianna is a goddess!)

Dig a trench...the un-intelligent drone falls in, goes boom...

The medieval stadard of using well equipped mercs as your first wave; test your gear and save your men...

Mercs don't like the Coalition (much), and are brighter than most think.
"Uh, sir, upon review of the operational parameters I'm afraid my unit will not be taking part in a suicide operation...you have a bad rep when it comes to pay on such missions."

NGR gargoyle bots variant...kamikaze TW Wingboard drones. Look like TW boards and are really a flying bomb.

Ah...Buzz-bombs...
All these did was draw the British together and harden their reserve against the "Krauts."
Now, since ley line energy would (logically) not be easily detectable by conventioal sensor that the Coalition would have access to, all Tolkien has to do is shoot down any wingboards not found flying on a ley-line, or not willing to ground itself atleast a kilometre outside the city.

EMP. If they have nukes, and EM tech, one could assume such is being developed. Leave them nothing BUT their magic so all conventional sensors and defences are crippled.

Tolkien had/has no "conventional" defences - unless you count an army. Plus, any sensors they would be using would be hardened against EM or would bt TW enhanced with "immune to energy"

Dirty bombs. No nukes, but killer radiation.

"Immune to Energy"
Elemental magic...use air based spells to re-direct the radiation back over CS targets

This is the sort of stuff I have planned for MY SoT I'm going to do...

Remember, any good offence can be blunted by a good defence or by factors not considered. Plus, Tolkien is not content to sit back and have the Coalition come to them...they took the fight to the Coalition, knowing that a defensive war is a lost war.

[Borast]

Granted completely. That is why I argue the stuff I have listed would be used in the opening days of the conflict, when Tolkeen was still behind its walls, so to speak.

This has been very cool BTW. You've really made me think about it more deeply. My campaign's CS thank you for your tactical assessment citizen. My PC's will soon curse your name....

Great! I was starting to think you were simply doing the old "CS is gonna win using the simplest of tactics because they are the CS" line...

You're welcome...however, I'm not a CS citizen...I'm a citizen of Campus. (You haven't heard of it because all the CS spies and scouts have been eliminated. Those Xixtix between us have some use after all! )

Remember, it's spelled "B-o-r-a-s-t"...

[Svartalf]

Reinstate the Vanguard. Give them free headjacks and ear implants. Pay them, apologize.

I don't understand your proposal.
if you want to reinstate the Vanguard, why mess up with their abilities at all?

If you want to magically neutralise them, a pair of bionic legs would be the ticket. It does not maim them in the least, rather the reverse, but it does away with any magical abilities once and for all. any additonal cyber would be bonus, things to enhance them and help them cope in their new tech only world.

[kamikazzijoe]

Honestly the best thing for the CS to do would have been to hire someone or use a captured tw item to cast antimagic cloud. The books say the CS has no problem hiring magic users to kill other magic users.

[Suicycho]

I'd engineer nanomachines designed to attack the molecular structure of living creatures, and release them in concentrated bursts among the enemy.

[Svartalf]

I'd engineer nanomachines designed to attack the molecular structure of living creatures, and release them in concentrated bursts among the enemy.

great... so the CS is going to manage to open a D Gate to the 3 galaxies so it can trade piranha guns from the T'Zee?

[Aerv]

Reinstate the Vanguard. Give them free headjacks and ear implants. Pay them, apologize.

I don't understand your proposal.
if you want to reinstate the Vanguard, why mess up with their abilities at all?

If you want to magically neutralise them, a pair of bionic legs would be the ticket. It does not maim them in the least, rather the reverse, but it does away with any magical abilities once and for all. any additonal cyber would be bonus, things to enhance them and help them cope in their new tech only world.

A mage can have up to four (4) cybernetic implants before there is any detriment to magical abilities.

[Svartalf]

Reinstate the Vanguard. Give them free headjacks and ear implants. Pay them, apologize.

I don't understand your proposal.
if you want to reinstate the Vanguard, why mess up with their abilities at all?

If you want to magically neutralise them, a pair of bionic legs would be the ticket. It does not maim them in the least, rather the reverse, but it does away with any magical abilities once and for all. any additonal cyber would be bonus, things to enhance them and help them cope in their new tech only world.

A mage can have up to four (4) cybernetic implants before there is any detriment to magical abilities.

err... where do you get that from?

From what I've read, Any cyber implants, and bionics up to *one* limb are enough to cut all magic and psionic potential by half.

More than *one* bionic limbs, or 4 cyber implants (BoM says 2 but I think I read 4 somewhere, and I'm willing to stay with that) will just Destroy all magic potential in the implantee.

[Killer Cyborg]

Leaflets.