This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Temporalmage]

Always back to the 'target destination' thing TM. Is this all the argument is based on? You're not targetting anything, you're just moving to a spot. There's nothing THERE to target, it's a place, not a thing. Air doesn't count, air is everywhere and doesn't interfere with anything. Do you need a vacuum void just to teleport? Bleh.

Please by all means, tell me where it says in any Palladium book that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle. I'm only surprised that I would have to argue at all.

[Zer0 Kay]

Always back to the 'target destination' thing TM. Is this all the argument is based on? You're not targetting anything, you're just moving to a spot. There's nothing THERE to target, it's a place, not a thing. Air doesn't count, air is everywhere and doesn't interfere with anything. Do you need a vacuum void just to teleport? Bleh.

Please by all means, tell me where it says in any Palladium book that you can teleport into a robot or vehicle. I'm only surprised that I would have to argue at all.

Only after you show me where it says, You can not TELEPORT into a robot or vehicle.

So you can teleport into a house with all it's doors and windows closed. You can teleport into the middle of NORAD. You can teleport into the middle of Chi-Town. You can teleport to a different dimension. You can teleport to someplace you've only seen in a picture. But you can't teleport into a vehicle or robot.

So that is how the CS will close Rifts since all they are is natural dimensional teleporting. They're going to build giant vehicles and park them on the Nexusi

If it is all about game ballance then screw the vehicle or robot I'm going to T-port a tactical nuke into the heart of Chi-Town.

[Temporalmage]

Only after you show me where it says, You can not TELEPORT into a robot or vehicle.

The BOM says no magic can travle into, or out of, a robot or vehicle. The spell teleport, both superior and lesser, don't state that they are exceptions. Other spells state they are exceptions to this rule. Source book 1 says that all paranormal powers are blocked the same way by vehicles. That leaves out the "paranormal" ability to teleport possessed by demons, dragons, and others. Thus one can not, by cannon material, teleport into or out of a robot or vehicle.

So you can teleport into a house with all it's doors and windows closed. You can teleport into the middle of NORAD. You can teleport into the middle of Chi-Town. You can teleport to a different dimension. You can teleport to someplace you've only seen in a picture. But you can't teleport into a vehicle or robot.

Correct Your finally getting it.

So that is how the CS will close Rifts since all they are is natural dimensional teleporting. They're going to build giant vehicles and park them on the Nexusi

Not quite. A rift is a dimensional portal, and would act more as a dimensional teleport, which is a bit differant than both teleport superior and teleport lesser.

If it is all about game ballance then screw the vehicle or robot I'm going to T-port a tactical nuke into the heart of Chi-Town.

I don't know what it's "all about" honestly. You'd have to ask KS that. I never presume to know what Palladium authors are thinking when they print the books. Especially the rules. Game ballance was just one persons views on this topic, and while I personally embrace the idea, there is no proof that it's even a factor.
If you've visited Chi-town, and don't care about the ramifications...then port away and watch the mushroom cloud!!

[Zer0 Kay]

Only after you show me where it says, You can not TELEPORT into a robot or vehicle.

The BOM says no magic can travle into, or out of, a robot or vehicle. The spell teleport, both superior and lesser, don't state that they are exceptions. Other spells state they are exceptions to this rule. Source book 1 says that all paranormal powers are blocked the same way by vehicles. That leaves out the "paranormal" ability to teleport possessed by demons, dragons, and others. Thus one can not, by cannon material, teleport into or out of a robot or vehicle.

I said TELEPORT not "The BOM says no magic can travel into." Show me where it says TELEPORT.

So you can teleport into a house with all it's doors and windows closed. You can teleport into the middle of NORAD. You can teleport into the middle of Chi-Town. You can teleport to a different dimension. You can teleport to someplace you've only seen in a picture. But you can't teleport into a vehicle or robot.

Correct Your finally getting it.

Uh that was sarcasm.

So that is how the CS will close Rifts since all they are is natural dimensional teleporting. They're going to build giant vehicles and park them on the Nexusi

Not quite. A rift is a dimensional portal, and would act more as a dimensional teleport, which is a bit differant than both teleport superior and teleport lesser.

So if I dimensional teleport to Phaseworld then back to Rifts Earth into the Spider Skull Walker that is alright with you? It doesn't say that Rifts or DT-Port can teleport into armor so why do you say they can. Isn't that going against the BOM?

If it is all about game ballance then screw the vehicle or robot I'm going to T-port a tactical nuke into the heart of Chi-Town.

I don't know what it's "all about" honestly. You'd have to ask KS that. I never presume to know what Palladium authors are thinking when they print the books. Especially the rules. Game ballance was just one persons views on this topic, and while I personally embrace the idea, there is no proof that it's even a factor.
If you've visited Chi-town, and don't care about the ramifications...then port away and watch the mushroom cloud!!

I wouldn't have a problem most of the CS are racial supremacist who would likely turn on each other, for their minor differences, once their were no D-bees. Saying that the CS has a good point is like saying the Nazis had a good idea.

[Dr. Doom III]

Actually the discription of the spell Teleport: Superior says "target Destination". This indicates that the mage is targeting the interior of the vehicle in this case, which is opposing the previously stated rule.

Yes the destination of the target.

[Killer Cyborg]

The space inside a person is not a person. Theoretically, if someone had a hole large enough inside them, and you had some way of being able to visualize it, then you could teleport an object or person into them.

The thing is, other than the stomach and intestines, I can't think of very many open spaces inside of us. Feel free to point some out, I never took biology.

Lungs.

Of course, unless you've BEEN inside somebody's lungs, stomache, intestines, etc. then you'll have a tough time teleporting into them.

[SkyeFyre]

Aren't lungs just full of smaller bags of air?
I don't think they're all that open

[Zer0 Kay]

The space inside a person is not a person. Theoretically, if someone had a hole large enough inside them, and you had some way of being able to visualize it, then you could teleport an object or person into them.

The thing is, other than the stomach and intestines, I can't think of very many open spaces inside of us. Feel free to point some out, I never took biology.

The large abdominal cavity aside from are internal organs there is very little else. We are not giant sacks of fluid we are just primarily composed of fluid.

[Zer0 Kay]

SkyeFyre is correct. Billions of sacks of air. They're called ventrioles or something, don't have my book on breathing with me.

I can help.

Inhale....
Exhale...
Inhale...
Exhale...
Repeat as Necessary

[Chuck Lang]

I never presume to know what Palladium authors are thinking when they print the books. Especially the rules.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who thought this way.

[Temporalmage]

I never presume to know what Palladium authors are thinking when they print the books. Especially the rules.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who thought this way.

The real source of this argument is that the writers never wrote anything absolute on the particular subject of teleportation. It, like several other spells from the original RMB, seem to fall outside of the usual spell restrictions but don't specifically state this fact in ways that Temporalmage and others are willing to accept.

Making the assumption that their effects are truncated is presumptuous, IMHO. The spell description does say 'anywhere,' after all.

Very true. But making assumptions that teleportation is in fact one of the few exceptions to a overall rule for magic in this game system without a single peace of evidence to the contrary is also very presumptuous, IMHO. Without this evidence we are left relying on only written rules and statements. Which leaves Teleportation as a spell that couldn't be used as inquired on this specific topic. That is to say teleporting into a vehicle or robot is against written cannon rules. Which is percisly what I've been stating all along.

[Killer Cyborg]

I never presume to know what Palladium authors are thinking when they print the books. Especially the rules.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who thought this way.

The real source of this argument is that the writers never wrote anything absolute on the particular subject of teleportation. It, like several other spells from the original RMB, seem to fall outside of the usual spell restrictions but don't specifically state this fact in ways that Temporalmage and others are willing to accept.

Making the assumption that their effects are truncated is presumptuous, IMHO. The spell description does say 'anywhere,' after all.

Very true. But making assumptions that teleportation is in fact one of the few exceptions to a overall rule for magic in this game system without a single peace of evidence to the contrary is also very presumptuous, IMHO. Without this evidence we are left relying on only written rules and statements. Which leaves Teleportation as a spell that couldn't be used as inquired on this specific topic. That is to say teleporting into a vehicle or robot is against written cannon rules. Which is percisly what I've been stating all along.

Only there is still nothing that says you can't, especially since the spell doesn't target the robot/vehicle or its passengers.

[Temporalmage]

Only there is still nothing that says you can't, especially since the spell doesn't target the robot/vehicle or its passengers.

So how, in your mind, do you think someone teleporting is going to appear inside a robot, unless the magical aspect of the spell teleport penetrates the robot itself? Even if you subscribe to the whole dimensional pocket theory that Doom proposed, the person teleporting is still entering the vehicle, through the use of magic, from the outside. Which is a direct violation of the rules as stated in the BOM.

[Saitou Hajime]

This is Clearly the Kid with a bag of rocks vs. the Mage of this year.

[PigLickJF]

Right, anywhere. Although anywhere is alot more limited then you are imagining. Honestly to argue the language of it, a 'where' is a place. So, you are saying that you make teleport to any place. Not any SPACE, space just helps make a place. If the spell wanted you to teleport into a robot, it would have to say any place or THING. A robot is a thing, not a place. No matter how you cut it, the robot will always be a thing. Thing need a place to be. it the robot is on Atlantis, the spellcaster would t-port to Atlantis, not the thing that is the robot. Same as with living creatures, or what we would call 'persons.' If you could go into a person, the spell would say person, place or thing. OR, in gramatical terms, a NOUN!
We all remeber nouns. However, we cannot t-port to a noun, we can ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE. Anywhere. You said it yourself. Anything that is, in relation to the teleporting person, a place can be reached with the T-port spell. According to the language put forth in the spell discription, you may ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE! Not a space.

Right, so the mage pictures the "place" in space which just so happens to be enveloped by the interior of the robot or vehicle at the time.

Besides, the spell specifically mentions teleporting to bases, etc. A base is a "thing" just like a robot is, so your semantic analysis breaks down anyway.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

Only there is still nothing that says you can't, especially since the spell doesn't target the robot/vehicle or its passengers.

So how, in your mind, do you think someone teleporting is going to appear inside a robot, unless the magical aspect of the spell teleport penetrates the robot itself? Even if you subscribe to the whole dimensional pocket theory that Doom proposed, the person teleporting is still entering the vehicle, through the use of magic, from the outside. Which is a direct violation of the rules as stated in the BOM.

Easy.
The specific nature of the teleportation spell over-rides the generic nature of the rule you are citing.
The purpose of the rule is obvious, and it's not to keep teleportation from working.

[Killer Cyborg]

Right, anywhere. Although anywhere is alot more limited then you are imagining. Honestly to argue the language of it, a 'where' is a place. So, you are saying that you make teleport to any place. Not any SPACE, space just helps make a place. If the spell wanted you to teleport into a robot, it would have to say any place or THING. A robot is a thing, not a place. No matter how you cut it, the robot will always be a thing. Thing need a place to be. it the robot is on Atlantis, the spellcaster would t-port to Atlantis, not the thing that is the robot. Same as with living creatures, or what we would call 'persons.' If you could go into a person, the spell would say person, place or thing. OR, in gramatical terms, a NOUN!
We all remeber nouns. However, we cannot t-port to a noun, we can ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE. Anywhere. You said it yourself. Anything that is, in relation to the teleporting person, a place can be reached with the T-port spell. According to the language put forth in the spell discription, you may ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE! Not a space.

Interesting concept.
Since I was always taught that a noun was any "person, place, or thing", I guess you really can't teleport anywhere except maybe into adjectives, verbs, adverbs, etc.
The spell is obviously more complicated than I realized.

But maybe you meant "you can't teleport into things".
That's clearer.
You clearly can't teleport into atmospheres, nations, states, counties, cities, towns, neighborhoods, buildings, or other things like that.
That what you meant?

[Killer Cyborg]

Right, anywhere. Although anywhere is alot more limited then you are imagining. Honestly to argue the language of it, a 'where' is a place. So, you are saying that you make teleport to any place. Not any SPACE, space just helps make a place. If the spell wanted you to teleport into a robot, it would have to say any place or THING. A robot is a thing, not a place. No matter how you cut it, the robot will always be a thing. Thing need a place to be. it the robot is on Atlantis, the spellcaster would t-port to Atlantis, not the thing that is the robot. Same as with living creatures, or what we would call 'persons.' If you could go into a person, the spell would say person, place or thing. OR, in gramatical terms, a NOUN!
We all remeber nouns. However, we cannot t-port to a noun, we can ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE. Anywhere. You said it yourself. Anything that is, in relation to the teleporting person, a place can be reached with the T-port spell. According to the language put forth in the spell discription, you may ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE! Not a space.

Interesting concept.
Since I was always taught that a noun was any "person, place, or thing", I guess you really can't teleport anywhere except maybe into adjectives, verbs, adverbs, etc.
The spell is obviously more complicated than I realized.

But maybe you meant "you can't teleport into things".
That's clearer.
You clearly can't teleport into atmospheres, nations, states, counties, cities, towns, neighborhoods, buildings, or other things like that.
That what you meant?

[Traska]

Okay, this is how teleportation seems to work.

You cease to exist temporarily at the location you were at, then you return to existance wherever you were teleporting to. You do not, in any way, cross the distance in between. The magic doesn't cross the distance in between. It's like flipping off a TV in the living room, and turning it on in the bedroom. Same broadcast signal, same proram, but there's no transmission from the living room to the bedroom.

Basically, there's no magic penetrating the environmental seal, as the person magically "winks into" existance once again. No magic ray that does the teleporting.

I would imagine the only true limit to teleportation (aside from accuracy and splatter concerns) would be the size of the space teleporting to. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to teleport into a closed mining system, since they usually have their own enviroments as well. Or a walk-in freezer. ("We have to protect the plans at all costs. Put them behind the frozen peas.")

[Zer0 Kay]

Only there is still nothing that says you can't, especially since the spell doesn't target the robot/vehicle or its passengers.

So how, in your mind, do you think someone teleporting is going to appear inside a robot, unless the magical aspect of the spell teleport penetrates the robot itself? Even if you subscribe to the whole dimensional pocket theory that Doom proposed, the person teleporting is still entering the vehicle, through the use of magic, from the outside. Which is a direct violation of the rules as stated in the BOM.

uh no its not because it doesn't effect equipment or personnel

[Zer0 Kay]

This is Clearly the Kid with a bag of rocks vs. the Mage of this year.

is that a good or bad accomplishment?

[Zer0 Kay]

The spell description does say 'anywhere,' after all.

Right, anywhere. Although anywhere is alot more limited then you are imagining. Honestly to argue the language of it, a 'where' is a place. So, you are saying that you make teleport to any place. Not any SPACE, space just helps make a place. If the spell wanted you to teleport into a robot, it would have to say any place or THING. A robot is a thing, not a place. No matter how you cut it, the robot will always be a thing. Thing need a place to be. it the robot is on Atlantis, the spellcaster would t-port to Atlantis, not the thing that is the robot. Same as with living creatures, or what we would call 'persons.' If you could go into a person, the spell would say person, place or thing. OR, in gramatical terms, a NOUN!
We all remeber nouns. However, we cannot t-port to a noun, we can ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE. Anywhere. You said it yourself. Anything that is, in relation to the teleporting person, a place can be reached with the T-port spell. According to the language put forth in the spell discription, you may ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE! Not a space.

Not according to dictionary.com. Notice the use of space in many uses. Again showing that EVERYTHING has its place, I guess nothing too. By your arguement the Earth does not have a place in the solar system, since it is occupying space.
place (pls)
n.

1.
a. An area with definite or indefinite boundaries; a portion of space.
b. Room or space, especially adequate space: There is place for everyone at the back of the room.
2.
a. The particular portion of space occupied by or allocated to a person or thing.
b. A building or an area set aside for a specified purpose: a place of worship.
3.
a. A dwelling; a house: bought a place on the lake.
b. A business establishment or office.
c. A locality, such as a town or city: visited many places.
4. Abbr. Pl. A public square or street with houses in a town.
5.
a. A space in which one person, such as a passenger or spectator, can sit or stand.
b. A setting for one person at a table.
6. A position regarded as belonging to someone or something else; stead: She was chosen in his place.
7.A particular point that one has reached, as in a book: I have lost my place.
8. A particular spot, as on the body: the place that hurts.

9.
a. The proper or designated role or function: the place of the media in a free society.
b. The proper or customary position or order: These books are out of place.
c. A suitable setting or occasion: not the place to argue.
d. The appropriate right or duty: not her place to criticize.
10. Social station: He overstepped his place.
11. A particular situation or circumstance: Put yourself in my place.
12. High rank or status.
13. A job, post, or position: found a place in the company.
14. Relative position in a series; standing.
15. Games. Second position for betting purposes, as in a horserace.
16. The specified stage in a list of points to be made, as in an argument: in the first place.
17. Mathematics. A position in a numeral or series.[/b]

[Zer0 Kay]

Well sure, if you just want to live, that's fine.
If you want to use your full lung capacity, meditate, or do extremely winding physical activity, you must master the breathing! There is normal breathing, and reverse/deep/lower/whatever breathing.

........
......
......
......
......
......
........

Trans: Big

[Zer0 Kay]

Okay, this is how teleportation seems to work.

You cease to exist temporarily at the location you were at, then you return to existance wherever you were teleporting to. You do not, in any way, cross the distance in between. The magic doesn't cross the distance in between. It's like flipping off a TV in the living room, and turning it on in the bedroom. Same broadcast signal, same proram, but there's no transmission from the living room to the bedroom.

Basically, there's no magic penetrating the environmental seal, as the person magically "winks into" existance once again. No magic ray that does the teleporting.

I would imagine the only true limit to teleportation (aside from accuracy and splatter concerns) would be the size of the space teleporting to. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to teleport into a closed mining system, since they usually have their own enviroments as well. Or a walk-in freezer. ("We have to protect the plans at all costs. Put them behind the frozen peas.")

Actually it would be more like speaking into a Mr. Microphone in one room and hearing it in another but there is transmission there. The TV one doesn't make sense. Your receiving a transmission from a distant location in one room and you go into the next and your receiving the same transmission from the same location in the next one TV has NOTHING to do with the others reception.

The freezer is funny. I'd put it under the frozen fruitcake no one will find it there.

[Traska]

The microphone doesn't work either.... in fact, nothing does as an analogy, because teleportation is so foreign to our understanding of physics and reality.

But there's still no "transmission" that moves you from A to B. It's just a case of one moment you're here, then you're there. Technological teleportation uses a beam (see Trek), but magic? It defies all known laws of reality save for the internal consistency granted by the laws of magic.

[Temporalmage]

The microphone doesn't work either.... in fact, nothing does as an analogy, because teleportation is so foreign to our understanding of physics and reality.

But there's still no "transmission" that moves you from A to B. It's just a case of one moment you're here, then you're there. Technological teleportation uses a beam (see Trek), but magic? It defies all known laws of reality save for the internal consistency granted by the laws of magic.

I agree totally. But any way you cut it, the spell is still placing the mage or object inside the robot or vehicle from the outside. And that part is a direct violation of the BOM ruling. Thats one thing you just can't get around, no matter how you think teleportation works. Magic can not penetrate a robots skin. So how would the mage arrive in an enclosed magic proof box?????

[Zer0 Kay]

The microphone doesn't work either.... in fact, nothing does as an analogy, because teleportation is so foreign to our understanding of physics and reality.

But there's still no "transmission" that moves you from A to B. It's just a case of one moment you're here, then you're there. Technological teleportation uses a beam (see Trek), but magic? It defies all known laws of reality save for the internal consistency granted by the laws of magic.

Uh I know that is why I said that there is still transmission with a microphone it is just closer than your TV analogy because it is something your doing going from one location to another unseen. Rather than your TV analogy where it is something someone else is doing being manipulated by you to be seen in two locations. The best analogy for T-port is walking from one location to another in a second without the walking part. So from one location to another in a second.

[Zer0 Kay]

The microphone doesn't work either.... in fact, nothing does as an analogy, because teleportation is so foreign to our understanding of physics and reality.

But there's still no "transmission" that moves you from A to B. It's just a case of one moment you're here, then you're there. Technological teleportation uses a beam (see Trek), but magic? It defies all known laws of reality save for the internal consistency granted by the laws of magic.

I agree totally. But any way you cut it, the spell is still placing the mage or object inside the robot or vehicle from the outside. And that part is a direct violation of the BOM ruling. Thats one thing you just can't get around, no matter how you think teleportation works. Magic can not penetrate a robots skin. So how would the mage arrive in an enclosed magic proof box?????

Did you answer my question before about dt-porting to another dimension and then back again into the skull walker? You were saying that a Rift which is a dt-port would be able to pass through and into a vehicle.

So if we find out T-port uses a pocket dimension to transfer you would it then be allowed by your reasoning to t-port into a vehicle?

[Dr. Doom III]

I agree totally. But any way you cut it, the spell is still placing the mage or object inside the robot or vehicle from the outside. And that part is a direct violation of the BOM ruling. Thats one thing you just can't get around, no matter how you think teleportation works. Magic can not penetrate a robots skin. So how would the mage arrive in an enclosed magic proof box?????

Well since that is not what the BOM is saying that doesn't really matter however teleporting doesn't penetrate anything it bypasses everything. Also the "enclosed magic proof box" isn't magic proof since there are exceptions, which you have stated.

[Killer Cyborg]

[quote="Temporalmage]
any way you cut it, the spell is still placing the mage or object inside the robot or vehicle from the outside. And that part is a direct violation of the BOM ruling. Thats one thing you just can't get around, no matter how you think teleportation works. Magic can not penetrate a robots skin. So how would the mage arrive in an enclosed magic proof box?????[/quote]

You're concentrating so much on the letter of the law (as you see it) that you are ignoring the point of the law.

What's the point of the rule?
Two things, really...

1. It means that mages can't cast spells at enemies while driving a robot. That way you don't have a mage "gunner" in a UAR-1 Enforcer casting magic net and carpet of adhesion at enemies giving the pilot the best of both worlds; all the heavy firepower of technology and all the versatility of magic.
2. It keeps mages from easily taking out robot vehicles. So the mage can't cast Fireball at the pilot and kill him unless the mage is inside the vehicle. It prevents tricks like "I cast Carped of Adhesion on the Glitterboy pilot, sticking him to the cockpit and controls!"

Teleportation is different from other spells.
It lets people move from any one location to any one place to any other place. The only restriction is range.
It has a built in balancing feature; you need to have seen the place you're teleporting to. This keeps mages from teleporting into any vehicle unless they have already been there, they have a photograph of the inside of the vehicle, or they are looking directly in through the window.

The rule exists purely to help with Palladium's sense of game balance.
The part you are focusing on is not there because of any particular occult theory on the part of the Palladium writers, it is there as flavor text meant as an excuse for the rule.
And you're letting the excuse for the rule outweigh the intent of the rule.

[Temporalmage]

Did you answer my question before about dt-porting to another dimension and then back again into the skull walker? You were saying that a Rift which is a dt-port would be able to pass through and into a vehicle.

So if we find out T-port uses a pocket dimension to transfer you would it then be allowed by your reasoning to t-port into a vehicle?

Allow me to quote myself....I had to wade through 20 pages of this topic to find it, but here ya go.

Any teleport spell or ability works by taking one object and instantaniously transporting it to a differant location. This is how both teleport spells and dragons teleport abilities would seem to work. I consider it more of a shifting effect. The object simply ceases to exist in one place and blinks into existance in a seperate place. Thus in my campaigns there is a "bamf" type sound that is heard on both ends as air is either rushed into the spot that is instantly vacated, or suddenly displaced as the object appears. There is no seperate dimensional pocket/wormhole effect/or whatnot. The magic is just a simple your in one spot and "poof" your in another.
Now what ever is in between is irrelivant to a teleport spell. Teleporting from one side of a radiation zone to the other side isn't going to subject the caster to the effects of radiation, neither would an anti-magic cloud placed somwhere inbetween have any adverse effect. That would be like having someone teleport from thier house to the local bar and appear soaked if it happens to be raining outside.
The ruling in Source Book 1 has always suggested to me that magic could not pass through the thick MDC of Robots and vehicles. (For a compleate quote look elsewhere on this topic) It's never been stated as to why this happens, just that magic, and specifically paranormal powers, cannot work in either direction.
The Book of Magic has overruled the passage when it comes to power armor. It seems that while mages in Rifts can no longer wear environmental armor, (at least without major complications) they can now cast magic through power armor. (Though with some even greater penelties) Yet the BOM does indeed tell us that casting magic through robots or vehicles is still impossible.
Now I've been accused of only looking at one sentance in the BOM. So lets tear the passage in question appart and take it step by step shall we?
"Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles." Seems self evident and self explanitory to me.
"Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."
So any spell that you wish to cast, any thats in the books, will not be able to get out of the vehicle. Even if you have some sort of line of sight. Unless you wish to effect your companion or some aspect of the interior of the robot of course. Seems simple enough.
"Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."
Hmm. So if I can see the pilot of a robot, and wish to Swap places with him, as per the 13th level "Swap Places" spell, (which by the way is a type of teleport spell) then it wouldn't be possible. Because you can not affect anyone inside a robot vehicle, from the outside of it. If I wish to teleport into the vehicle, and direct my teleport spell at the vehicle, then it would only affect the robot's outside, not being able to deposit me inside.

Now as I've said in the past, teleport MUST target the final location of a teleport. It's simply logical. I'm sorry but no matter what type of teleportation that you believe in, or use. Pocket dimension, wormhole, sliding, gods hand with a pair of tweezers.....the magic takes the object/person, and places them somplace else. There is no pushing, shoving, or any other type of kinetic effect happening. The person wouldn't feal any type of inertia from a teleport. Yet they have travled several hundereds of miles. Why? Because it's magic. And it would be in effect for the exact time that a teleport is in effect. Which is to say instantaniously. But that same magic would indeed be felt at both the location you teleported from, and the one you arrived at. By dogboys, psi-stalkers, etc. Because magic has been used in both areas simultaniously. Probably why the spell takes so much PPE if ya think about it.

Many of you have accused me of sticking to the letter of the law on this topic. Your absolutly correct. As I've stated many times on this post. According to the rules teleporting into a robot or vehicle would be impossible to do. Read all you want into single words like "anywhere"...it does not matter according to the letter of the rules.

[Dr. Doom III]

Many of you have accused me of sticking to the letter of the law on this topic. Your absolutly correct. As I've stated many times on this post. According to the rules teleporting into a robot or vehicle would be impossible to do. Read all you want into single words like "anywhere"...it does not matter according to the letter of the rules.

Taking one sentence out of context is much more accurate.

[Temporalmage]

Many of you have accused me of sticking to the letter of the law on this topic. Your absolutly correct. As I've stated many times on this post. According to the rules teleporting into a robot or vehicle would be impossible to do. Read all you want into single words like "anywhere"...it does not matter according to the letter of the rules.

Taking one sentence out of context is much more accurate.

?? If ya look directly above I went over ever sentance from the BOM in detail. All of it is in perfect context...so what are you blabbering on about??

[Dr. Doom III]

?? If ya look directly above I went over ever sentance from the BOM in detail. All of it is in perfect context...so what are you blabbering on about??

The same thing I told you 50 times.
The context is for targeting the people and things on the inside with a spell and vice versa.

[Temporalmage]

?? If ya look directly above I went over ever sentance from the BOM in detail. All of it is in perfect context...so what are you blabbering on about??

The same thing I told you 50 times.
The context is for targeting the people and things on the inside with a spell and vice versa.

So you can't target peaple and things. The floor of a robot is a thing. The air is a thing. Does the mage teleport inbetween molecules of air? I don't think so. Your own words don't help you out one bit.

[Dr. Doom III]

So you can't target peaple and things. The floor of a robot is a thing. The air is a thing. Does the mage teleport inbetween molecules of air? I don't think so. Your own words don't help you out one bit.

No a location isn't a "thing".
A thing being defined by the rule as people or equipment.


Thanks for playing.

[Temporalmage]

No a location isn't a "thing".

Your absolutly right. A location isn't a thing at all. But a mage can't target the inside of a robot with a spell, and teleport specifically states that the mage arrives at the "Target" destination. Please explain that for me.

Thanks for playing.

Oh no..Thank you!! It's fun playing tag like this...by the way. Your it!

[PigLickJF]

Ok, stop making yourself sound simple.
Yeah, of course everything is a thing if you look at it as a universal. But come now, if there are no places then the spell has no function. it T-ports you to any place. That is all the spell can do. so if a town is now a thing, well that is outside the relm of the spell.
Now, think about this outside the relm of the abstract. A place is of course a thing. So is a person. However, a person is made of of more then what a thing is made up of. A person has intellect, feelings, hopes and dream, a range of motion. Compare that to a bottle cap. Now think about what make a place a place. If you really had to put things in categories, where would you put a town, a bottle cap and a bank teller? I would say that the rown was a place, the bottle cap a thing and the bank teller a person.
And now, because you didn't seem to understand the whole noun thing, and I was hoping it was clear, here we go with it in more detail:
A NOUN is made up of three diffrent pieces, person place and thing. That is too broad a list. What the spell states is that the spell will take you to a place. A robot is a thing.
So, if we are going to say somthing is a place, lets go ahead and not be ignorent of what a place is. In no way can a robot be a place. And if you are going to quote me, atempt to understand what I put in the post. I welcome smart ass posts, but not dumb ass posts.

Sorry, but your explanation is ridiculously semantic. A robot is a thing, but you're not teleporting "to the robot," you're teleporting to the place inside the robot. I'm sure if they meant the spell to be as complicated as you makie it out to be they'd have gone into much more detail as to what entails a "place" as opposed to a "thing," instead of simply saying that the spell allows the caster to go anywhere within range.

PigLick

[Temporalmage]

I'm sure if they meant the spell to be as complicated as you makie it out to be they'd have gone into much more detail as to what entails a "place" as opposed to a "thing," instead of simply saying that the spell allows the caster to go anywhere within range.

PigLick

Palladium has written a rule that states that magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle.
Palladium has written spell discriptions that are clearly stated as being exceptions to the above rule.
The spell Teleport states that it can transport the mage/object "anywhere".
Conversly there are exceptions to this "anywhere", such as listed in the teleport spell discription. IE: known location, within range, etc.
Due to the wording of the teleport spells, specifically that they do not state they are exceptions, and the wording of the much discussed rule in the BOM, and the lessor rule in Source Book One.....Robots and large vehicles are exceptions to the "anywhere" clause as stated in the spell discriptions.

[Dr. Doom III]

Your absolutly right. A location isn't a thing at all. But a mage can't target the inside of a robot with a spell, and teleport specifically states that the mage arrives at the "Target" destination. Please explain that for me.

I noticed you ignored the second part.

But to answer your question you answered it yourself. Target destination not spell target or magic target or spell destination or magic destination or anything else.
The spell targets what is being teleported, self or by touch neither of which is required for the target of the object's trip. All that is required there is for knowledge of the target destination.

[Dr. Doom III]

Palladium has written a rule that states that magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle.
Palladium has written spell discriptions that are clearly stated as being exceptions to the above rule.
The spell Teleport states that it can transport the mage/object "anywhere".
Conversly there are exceptions to this "anywhere", such as listed in the teleport spell discription. IE: known location, within range, etc.
Due to the wording of the teleport spells, specifically that they do not state they are exceptions, and the wording of the much discussed rule in the BOM, and the lessor rule in Source Book One.....Robots and large vehicles are exceptions to the "anywhere" clause as stated in the spell discriptions.

Those aren't exceptions.
They are how it works and not being inside certain thing is not part of it.

[Temporalmage]

Your absolutly right. A location isn't a thing at all. But a mage can't target the inside of a robot with a spell, and teleport specifically states that the mage arrives at the "Target" destination. Please explain that for me.

I noticed you ignored the second part.

But to answer your question you answered it yourself. Target destination not spell target or magic target or spell destination or magic destination or anything else.
The spell targets what is being teleported, self or by touch neither of which is required for the target of the object's trip. All that is required there is for knowledge of the target destination.

Now we're gonna have problems again. Your once again using your own logic in place of written material. Where does it state anything even remotly close to what you just said?? Page number please??
As I've said before Doom, I am only arguing book facts and book rules. If you want to tell everyone somthing else based on your own personal opinions/ logic/ tea leaves/ reading Big Kev's mind again...be my geust. But according to the rules, the written material that everyone that owns a book can read in the comfort of their own homes....you can not teleport into a robot or vehicle. I've been asking you since page 5 of this topic to point out one single blurb in all the books you own where it lets us readers know that such a thing is possible. You have not been able to do so. Instead you give us your opinion and conjecture. Sometimes fairly intellegently....othertimes not so. But it's still only your opinion, not book facts.

[Dr. Doom III]

Now we're gonna have problems again. Your once again using your own logic in place of written material. Where does it state anything even remotly close to what you just said?? Page number please??
As I've said before Doom, I am only arguing book facts and book rules. If you want to tell everyone somthing else based on your own personal opinions/ logic/ tea leaves/ reading Big Kev's mind again...be my geust. But according to the rules, the written material that everyone that owns a book can read in the comfort of their own homes....you can not teleport into a robot or vehicle. I've been asking you since page 5 of this topic to point out one single blurb in all the books you own where it lets us readers know that such a thing is possible. You have not been able to do so. Instead you give us your opinion and conjecture. Sometimes fairly intellegently....othertimes not so. But it's still only your opinion, not book facts.

Have you read the two teleport spell descriptions? It's all there and there is no opinion. I think you should be able to find them without page numbers.

I still noticed you ignored the second part.

[Temporalmage]

Have you read the two teleport spell descriptions? It's all there and there is no opinion. I think you should be able to find them without page numbers.

Yup. Read em all, several times in fact. And not once did I see a place that says you can teleport into a robot, or large vehicle. Where did you read that you could? Comon Doomy. I've given you several quotes from the books. Can't you even give me one little bitty one??

I still noticed you ignored the second part.

Second part?? Do you mean "A thing being defined by the rule as people or equipment." Well if this is what you mean then for one thing, I'm not sure what your talking about, and unlike some peaple I don't run off at the mouth just because I've got an opinion. And for two what "rule" are you refering too anyway??

[PigLickJF]

I'm sure if they meant the spell to be as complicated as you makie it out to be they'd have gone into much more detail as to what entails a "place" as opposed to a "thing," instead of simply saying that the spell allows the caster to go anywhere within range.

PigLick

Palladium has written a rule that states that magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle.
Palladium has written spell discriptions that are clearly stated as being exceptions to the above rule.
The spell Teleport states that it can transport the mage/object "anywhere".
Conversly there are exceptions to this "anywhere", such as listed in the teleport spell discription. IE: known location, within range, etc.
Due to the wording of the teleport spells, specifically that they do not state they are exceptions, and the wording of the much discussed rule in the BOM, and the lessor rule in Source Book One.....Robots and large vehicles are exceptions to the "anywhere" clause as stated in the spell discriptions.

Eh..as evidenced by the quoted text in my initial post, I wasn't responding to you Temporal, I was responding to silver's ridiculous semantic argument about the difference between places and things as they relate to teleport spells. If you're going to try and incorporate his views into your own, I think you'd be weakening your position considerably. If you're not a proponent of that particular explanation, then my response in that case has nothiong to do with your argument.

PigLick

[Dr. Doom III]

Yup. Read em all, several times in fact. And not once did I see a place that says you can teleport into a robot, or large vehicle. Where did you read that you could? Comon Doomy. I've given you several quotes from the books. Can't you even give me one little bitty one??

What part of anywhere known by the caster don't you understand?

Second part?? Do you mean "A thing being defined by the rule as people or equipment." Well if this is what you mean then for one thing, I'm not sure what your talking about, and unlike some peaple I don't run off at the mouth just because I've got an opinion. And for two what "rule" are you refering too anyway??

Yep that's it.
It doesn't surprise me since after the "magic cannot penetrate" sentence you stopped reading. Your BoM rule plus the ignored sentences following. Unlike some people I don't stop reading when I see something that seems to support my position without reading the rest of the relevant passage.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, stop making yourself sound simple.

Yes, I probably embarrassed myself by pointing out that you don't know what a noun is.
Or what a "thing" is...

Yeah, of course everything is a thing if you look at it as a universal. But come now, if there are no places then the spell has no function. it T-ports you to any place. That is all the spell can do. so if a town is now a thing, well that is outside the relm of the spell.
Now, think about this outside the relm of the abstract. A place is of course a thing. So is a person. However, a person is made of of more then what a thing is made up of. A person has intellect, feelings, hopes and dream, a range of motion. Compare that to a bottle cap. Now think about what make a place a place. If you really had to put things in categories, where would you put a town, a bottle cap and a bank teller? I would say that the rown was a place, the bottle cap a thing and the bank teller a person.
And now, because you didn't seem to understand the whole noun thing, and I was hoping it was clear, here we go with it in more detail:
A NOUN is made up of three diffrent pieces, person place and thing. That is too broad a list. What the spell states is that the spell will take you to a place. A robot is a thing.
So, if we are going to say somthing is a place, lets go ahead and not be ignorent of what a place is. In no way can a robot be a place. And if you are going to quote me, atempt to understand what I put in the post. I welcome smart ass posts, but not dumb ass posts.

I assumed from my examples that you would get the point; things can be places, places can be things, etc.
The terms are in no way, shape, or form mutually exclusive.
A house is a place, and it is a thing.
A car is a place, and it is a thing.
A planet is a place, and it is a thing.

[Zer0 Kay]

The spell description does say 'anywhere,' after all.

Right, anywhere. Although anywhere is alot more limited then you are imagining. Honestly to argue the language of it, a 'where' is a place. So, you are saying that you make teleport to any place. Not any SPACE, space just helps make a place. If the spell wanted you to teleport into a robot, it would have to say any place or THING. A robot is a thing, not a place. No matter how you cut it, the robot will always be a thing. Thing need a place to be. it the robot is on Atlantis, the spellcaster would t-port to Atlantis, not the thing that is the robot. Same as with living creatures, or what we would call 'persons.' If you could go into a person, the spell would say person, place or thing. OR, in gramatical terms, a NOUN!
We all remeber nouns. However, we cannot t-port to a noun, we can ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE. Anywhere. You said it yourself. Anything that is, in relation to the teleporting person, a place can be reached with the T-port spell. According to the language put forth in the spell discription, you may ONLY T-PORT TO A PLACE! Not a space.

Not according to dictionary.com. Notice the use of space in many uses. Again showing that EVERYTHING has its place, I guess nothing too. By your arguement the Earth does not have a place in the solar system, since it is occupying space.
place (pls)
n.

1.
a. An area with definite or indefinite boundaries; a portion of space.
b. Room or space, especially adequate space: There is place for everyone at the back of the room.
2.
a. The particular portion of space occupied by or allocated to a person or thing.
b. A building or an area set aside for a specified purpose: a place of worship.
3.
a. A dwelling; a house: bought a place on the lake.
b. A business establishment or office.
c. A locality, such as a town or city: visited many places.
4. Abbr. Pl. A public square or street with houses in a town.
5.
a. A space in which one person, such as a passenger or spectator, can sit or stand.
b. A setting for one person at a table.
6. A position regarded as belonging to someone or something else; stead: She was chosen in his place.
7.A particular point that one has reached, as in a book: I have lost my place.
8. A particular spot, as on the body: the place that hurts.

9.
a. The proper or designated role or function: the place of the media in a free society.
b. The proper or customary position or order: These books are out of place.
c. A suitable setting or occasion: not the place to argue.
d. The appropriate right or duty: not her place to criticize.
10. Social station: He overstepped his place.
11. A particular situation or circumstance: Put yourself in my place.
12. High rank or status.
13. A job, post, or position: found a place in the company.
14. Relative position in a series; standing.
15. Games. Second position for betting purposes, as in a horserace.
16. The specified stage in a list of points to be made, as in an argument: in the first place.
17. Mathematics. A position in a numeral or series.[/b]

Now this is a good post!
But, even with your great definition, you still point out a thing is not a place, it takes up a place. Also, the definition uses the word space, another term that is not useful to your arguement, because the spell does not go to a space. It goes to a place. 5 in your agrument above is a space already taken up by an object, and 6-17 are not really definitions that can be used. Although someone T-porting the 1st place would be funny.
I think 1. a. is what you would argue as inside something. To be honest, I would think that if the mage could really think of the space as a PLACE, NOT A THING, he could teleport into it. Really, if you think a robot is a place, well, what the heck are you thinking?

First I point out no such thing all I did was show the many definitions of place. Many of which have nothing to do with location. Number 1a does. What 1. a. says is place is "An area with definite or indefinite boundaries; a portion of space." The mage visualizes the location or space that has definite boundries it is often called a room sometimes a cockpit maybe a cavern or a landmark. All of the locations are a place and consist of an area with definite or indefinite boundaries. You can use what ever definition you want heck if you want you can put yourself in a high ranking place if you want. However, since the book doesn't say place is defined as 2 or 3 from dictionary.com then I'm going to use the supposedly most common 1a. Where place equals a possition in space as in Earths place in the solar system or one of the five places called Lagrange points which are absolutely nothing except space where the gravitational forces are canceled out so that place definately cancels your theory of place having to be something since the place where Lagrange points are is nothing. Not only that but even though there is nothing there if I was a stupid mage or a prepared one I could teleport, if I was of high enough level, to the Lagrange points as long as I knew where they were.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ok, stop making yourself sound simple.

Yes, I probably embarrassed myself by pointing out that you don't know what a noun is.
Or what a "thing" is...

Yeah, of course everything is a thing if you look at it as a universal. But come now, if there are no places then the spell has no function. it T-ports you to any place. That is all the spell can do. so if a town is now a thing, well that is outside the relm of the spell.
Now, think about this outside the relm of the abstract. A place is of course a thing. So is a person. However, a person is made of of more then what a thing is made up of. A person has intellect, feelings, hopes and dream, a range of motion. Compare that to a bottle cap. Now think about what make a place a place. If you really had to put things in categories, where would you put a town, a bottle cap and a bank teller? I would say that the rown was a place, the bottle cap a thing and the bank teller a person.
And now, because you didn't seem to understand the whole noun thing, and I was hoping it was clear, here we go with it in more detail:
A NOUN is made up of three diffrent pieces, person place and thing. That is too broad a list. What the spell states is that the spell will take you to a place. A robot is a thing.
So, if we are going to say somthing is a place, lets go ahead and not be ignorent of what a place is. In no way can a robot be a place. And if you are going to quote me, atempt to understand what I put in the post. I welcome smart ass posts, but not dumb ass posts.

I assumed from my examples that you would get the point; things can be places, places can be things, etc.
The terms are in no way, shape, or form mutually exclusive.
A house is a place, and it is a thing.
A car is a place, and it is a thing.
A planet is a place, and it is a thing.

Or like my example
A Lagrange point is a place, a thing (an idea), and nothing (empty space, actually they found dust there)

[Traska]

Target destination does not mean something you target. A fundraising target doesn't mean you get a sniper rifle and set some cash in the crosshairs. It means a goal. What you wish to achieve.

From www.m-w.com (Merriam-Webster... they write those dictionary thingies):

Main Entry: 1tar·get
Pronunciation: 'tär-g&t
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French targette, diminutive of targe light shield, of Germanic origin; akin to Old Norse targa shield
1 : a small round shield
2 a : a mark to shoot at b : a target marked by shots fired at it c : something or someone fired at or marked for attack d : a goal to be achieved
3 a : an object of ridicule or criticism b : something or someone to be affected by an action or development
4 a : a railroad day signal that is attached to a switch stand and indicates whether the switch is open or closed b : a sliding sight on a surveyor's leveling rod
5 a : the metallic surface (as of platinum or tungsten) upon which the stream of electrons within an X-ray tube is focused and from which the X rays are emitted b : a body, surface, or material bombarded with nuclear particles or electrons; especially : fluorescent material on which desired visual effects are produced in electronic devices (as in radar)

(Bolded for your pleasure)

A goal to be achieved. That's what the target destination is. Where's you're trying to get to. Nothing more. If you're trying to go from Ft Worth, TX, to Des Moines, IA, Des Mojnes is the target destination. Again, that doesn't mean you actually target it with anything.